Flashing lights , a good thing?

soup said:

Someone (a "motorist/driver"😉 in another newsgroup was saying they
dislike flashing rear lights, on bikes, as they force them to
think/wonder whether the cyclist has a flashing light or if they are
cycling behind a set of railings. Now I don't care how much it annoys
them I want any motorist/driver to be thinking while they are in charge
of a ton of metal.

<aol> me too! </aol>

Being forced to think may be not what you /want/ on a drive, but it
rarely does anyone any harm. I say that with the experience of having
avoided a few driving prangs over the years by virtue of my brain having
been forced to do some work after unexpected outside stimulation.

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net [email hidden] http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

soup said:

Someone (a "motorist/driver"😉 in another newsgroup was saying they
dislike flashing rear lights, on bikes, as they force them to
think/wonder whether the cyclist has a flashing light or if they are
cycling behind a set of railings. Now I don't care how much it annoys
them I want any motorist/driver to be thinking while they are in charge
of a ton of metal.

you do notice them more but they make it harder to judge speed/distance.
probably in well lit streets is a good idea, in less well maybe not.

roger

soup said:

Someone (a "motorist/driver"😉 in another newsgroup was saying they
dislike flashing rear lights, on bikes, as they force them to
think/wonder whether the cyclist has a flashing light or if they are
cycling behind a set of railings. Now I don't care how much it annoys
them I want any motorist/driver to be thinking while they are in charge
of a ton of metal.

He has a point I think.

That's why I usually use both; a flasher on my back, and a brighter,
steady light on the bike.

Roger Merriman said:

you do notice them more but they make it harder to judge speed/distance.
probably in well lit streets is a good idea, in less well maybe not.

My experience as a driver is that a flashing light alone makes the cycle
look about 2-3x as far away as he really is. There is an obvious failure
mode here.

I have no particular objection to flashing lights in conjunction with
steady lights, except that they may pull my attention away from
something else that I need to see that _doesn't_ happen to have a
flashing light on it. But I certainly wouldn't carry a flashing light on
its own.

(As for the fellow I saw on the Cable Street cycle path with a flashing
_red_ light on the front of his bike...)

R

Chris Smith said:

soup said:

Someone (a "motorist/driver"😉 in another newsgroup was saying they
dislike flashing rear lights, on bikes, as they force them to
think/wonder whether the cyclist has a flashing light or if they are
cycling behind a set of railings. Now I don't care how much it annoys
them I want any motorist/driver to be thinking while they are in charge
of a ton of metal.

He has a point I think.

That's why I usually use both; a flasher on my back, and a brighter,
steady light on the bike.

I have one row of my Cateye TL-LD1000 on steady, the other on simple
flash.

My (limited) understanding of the human vision system is that
peripheral vision is more sensitive to variation in intensity of a
source than to its absolute intensity. Thus the flash should be more
noticeable where I'm not directly in front of a vehicle. The steady
light means that if someone glimpses a flash and turns their eyes in
its direction, they will always see something.

--
Tim Forcer [email hidden]
The University of Southampton, UK

The University is not responsible for my opinions

Quoted message said:

My (limited) understanding of the human vision system is that
peripheral vision is more sensitive to variation in intensity of a
source than to its absolute intensity. Thus the flash should be more
noticeable where I'm not directly in front of a vehicle. The steady
light means that if someone glimpses a flash and turns their eyes in
its direction, they will always see something.

Wot someone on 'ere said is that the flashy thing grabs the attention,
whilst the steady light helps to work out the distance and speed (distance
being quite hard to judge when something has only flashy lights).

For the sake of following riders, a flashy light shouldn't be too bright.

in message <[email hidden]>, Roger Merriman

(') said:

soup said:

Someone (a "motorist/driver"😉 in another newsgroup was saying they
dislike flashing rear lights, on bikes, as they force them to
think/wonder whether the cyclist has a flashing light or if they are
cycling behind a set of railings. Now I don't care how much it annoys
them I want any motorist/driver to be thinking while they are in charge
of a ton of metal.

you do notice them more but they make it harder to judge speed/distance.
probably in well lit streets is a good idea, in less well maybe not.

Absolutely disagree. On quiet rural roads around here with no street
lighting at all, a flashing red light says 'cyclist' half a mile away. A
steady red light could be one of any number of things.

--
[email hidden] (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/
Just as defying the law of gravity through building aircraft requires
careful design and a lot of effort, so too does defying laws of
economics. It seems to be a deeply ingrained aspect of humanity to
forever strive to improve things, so unquestioning acceptance of a
free market system seems to me to be unnatural. ;; Charles Bryant

Tim Forcer said:

Chris Smith said:

soup wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Someone (a "motorist/driver"😉 in another newsgroup was saying they
dislike flashing rear lights, on bikes, as they force them to
think/wonder whether the cyclist has a flashing light or if they are
cycling behind a set of railings. Now I don't care how much it annoys
them I want any motorist/driver to be thinking while they are in charge
of a ton of metal.

Quoted message said:

He has a point I think.

Quoted message said:

That's why I usually use both; a flasher on my back, and a brighter,
steady light on the bike.

I have one row of my Cateye TL-LD1000 on steady, the other on simple
flash.

My (limited) understanding of the human vision system is that
peripheral vision is more sensitive to variation in intensity of a
source than to its absolute intensity. Thus the flash should be more
noticeable where I'm not directly in front of a vehicle. The steady
light means that if someone glimpses a flash and turns their eyes in
its direction, they will always see something.

Agreed. I use a flash for being noticed, a steady one for them to
judge the distance. I tend to use the flasher on days when the road is
wet and the sun is out too. Anything to make sure there is no excuse
not to see me. Short of having a large Lottery style finger above my
head, this is the best I feel I can do!

Quoting Roger Burton West <[email hidden]>:

Quoted message said:

Roger Merriman said:

you do notice them more but they make it harder to judge speed/distance.
probably in well lit streets is a good idea, in less well maybe not.

My experience as a driver is that a flashing light alone makes the cycle
look about 2-3x as far away as he really is. There is an obvious failure
mode here.

We should beware gut feel here - some people have gut feels either way.
TRL did some research leading up to the change in RVLR which suggested,
overall, there wasn't much in it.

I think - absent a lighting arrangement that sends the message "Police
motorcyclist in extremely bad mood" - there's something to be said for one
that sends the message "cyclist". Mind you, I still use all-steady.
--
David Damerell <[email hidden]> flcl?
Today is Sunday, March - a weekend.

soup said:

Someone (a "motorist/driver"😉 in another newsgroup was saying they
dislike flashing rear lights, on bikes, as they force them to
think/wonder whether the cyclist has a flashing light or if they are
cycling behind a set of railings. Now I don't care how much it annoys
them I want any motorist/driver to be thinking while they are in charge
of a ton of metal.

I agree with other postings -- constant is easier to judge distance
by, flashing attracts attention.

How about front lights? On occasional journeys home from work I see a
guy riding in the opposite direction on unlit roads who has the
brightest flashing front light I've ever seen. It's so bright I can't
look at it, and if I have to look away then I expect motorists do as
well. Not good. I'm all for bright lights but a single, super-bright
strobe in the darkness is madness.

Mark

Mark said the following on 13/03/2007 16:25:

Quoted message said:

How about front lights? On occasional journeys home from work I see a
guy riding in the opposite direction on unlit roads who has the
brightest flashing front light I've ever seen.

I'm not sure if that's better or worse than what appears to be a single
guttering candle on the front of a bike that I often saw on my way home
from work.

--
Paul Boyd
http://www.paul-boyd.co.uk/

On Tue, 13 Mar 2007 14:09:37 +0000 someone who may be Simon Brooke
<[email hidden]> wrote this:-

Quoted message said:

On quiet rural roads around here with no street
lighting at all, a flashing red light says 'cyclist' half a mile away.

It could also say "police", "AA" or an increasing range of
organisations that have decided that although flashing blue and
yellow lights don't wake up some motorists flashing red ones will
wake them up. This theory fails because flashing red lights at
railway level crossings and other places don't wake up some
motorists, but when did "mere" facts deter such organisations?

--
David Hansen, Edinburgh
I will *always* explain revoked encryption keys, unless RIP prevents me
http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2000/00023--e.htm#54

David Hansen said:

On Tue, 13 Mar 2007 14:09:37 +0000 someone who may be Simon Brooke
<[email hidden]> wrote this:-

Quoted message said:

On quiet rural roads around here with no street
lighting at all, a flashing red light says 'cyclist' half a mile
away.

It could also say "police", "AA" or an increasing range of
organisations that have decided that although flashing blue and
yellow lights don't wake up some motorists flashing red ones will
wake them up. This theory fails because flashing red lights at
railway level crossings and other places don't wake up some
motorists, but when did "mere" facts deter such organisations?

The theory fails because "*some*" motorists aren't woken up?? If it wakes
up more than would be woken up by steady lights then it succeeds.

~PB

David Hansen said:

On Tue, 13 Mar 2007 14:09:37 +0000 someone who may be Simon Brooke
<[email hidden]> wrote this:-

Quoted message said:

On quiet rural roads around here with no street
lighting at all, a flashing red light says 'cyclist' half a mile away.

It could also say "police", "AA" or an increasing range of
organisations that have decided that although flashing blue and
yellow lights don't wake up some motorists flashing red ones will
wake them up. This theory fails because flashing red lights at
railway level crossings and other places don't wake up some
motorists, but when did "mere" facts deter such organisations?

Sadly, some motorists will only ever be woken up by the Pearly Gates.

Cheers,
Luke

--
Lincoln City 0-2 Southend United (AET)
Swansea City 2-2 Southend United
We went up twice with Tilly and Brush

soup said:

Someone (a "motorist/driver"😉 in another newsgroup was saying they
dislike flashing rear lights, on bikes, as they force them to
think/wonder whether the cyclist has a flashing light or if they are
cycling behind a set of railings. Now I don't care how much it annoys
them I want any motorist/driver to be thinking while they are in
charge of a ton of metal.

I want drivers to notice and think, but it can't be good to make them angry
which excessive dazzling must do. So I prefer to use flashing mode only if
I think my lights aren't bright enough to get attention with steady mode.
The latest and best LED lights are good enough on steady at night, I think.
Flashing is still useful in the twilight before/after it's properly dark,
though.

The reflection off the road from a very bright front flashing light is also
annoying to me. With a Polaris II, for example, this is visable even on
urban street-lit roads, even with the light pointed only slightly downwards.

However, regarding the "tracking" business, drivers should still be able to
track your position well enough when you have flashing lights - with the
help of any reflectors you have, and/or light from car/street lights. For
this reason I think it's unnecessary to have a steady light in addition to a
flashing one. The steady one would also spoil the effect of the flashing
one.

~PB

Tim Forcer wrote on 13/03/2007 12:54 +0100:

Quoted message said:

My (limited) understanding of the human vision system is that
peripheral vision is more sensitive to variation in intensity of a
source than to its absolute intensity. Thus the flash should be more
noticeable where I'm not directly in front of a vehicle.

So far so good except that peripheral vision has virtually no
sensitivity at the colour of red LEDs.

--
Tony

"...has many omissions and contains much that is apocryphal, or at least
wildly inaccurate..."
Douglas Adams; The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy

Roger Burton West said:

I have no particular objection to flashing lights in conjunction with
steady lights, except that they may pull my attention away from
something else that I need to see that _doesn't_ happen to have a
flashing light on it. But I certainly wouldn't carry a flashing light on
its own.

Agreed wholeheartedly.

Quoted message said:

(As for the fellow I saw on the Cable Street cycle path with a flashing
_red_ light on the front of his bike...)

I've come across this a few times, the first time being on the
Bath-Bristol cyclepath.

I use powerful front lights, turning the brightest light off when I see
someone coming the other way in order to avoid dazzling oncoming
cyclists. When this chap complained about being dazzled, I informed him
that if I had known he was riding *towards* me then I'd have dipped my
lights. He explained his reasoning for using a red light on the front
of his bike as being to confuse motorists, making them look twice and
thus making him more likely to be seen. I consider this reasoning to be
flawed, possibly fatally.

On another occasion I encountered two cyclists at twilight attaching
lights to their bikes - white on the back, red on the front. When I
explained the error of their ways, they said that they thought that was
how bike lights were /supposed/ to be fitted. They /did/ correct the
error before riding on, though.

--
Danny Colyer <URL:http://www.colyer.plus.com/danny/>
Reply address is valid, but that on my website is checked more often
"He who dares not offend cannot be honest." - Thomas Paine

Simon Brooke said:

Absolutely disagree. On quiet rural roads around here with no street
lighting at all, a flashing red light says 'cyclist' half a mile away. A
steady red light could be one of any number of things.

Any of which should be watched carefully and treated as a potential hazard.

On quiet rural cyclepaths around here with no street lighting at all, a
flashing red light causes me to say to myself: "Bugger, now I've got to
put up with that horrible flashing thing in my vision for as long as it
takes to catch up and get past".

I don't find them so bad if there's a steady light alongside.

--
Danny Colyer <URL:http://www.colyer.plus.com/danny/>
Reply address is valid, but that on my website is checked more often
"He who dares not offend cannot be honest." - Thomas Paine

Danny Colyer <[email hidden]> wrote in news:45f705de$0$8732
[email hidden]:

Quoted message said:

Roger Burton West said:

I have no particular objection to flashing lights in conjunction with
steady lights, except that they may pull my attention away from
something else that I need to see that _doesn't_ happen to have a
flashing light on it. But I certainly wouldn't carry a flashing light

on

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

its own.

Agreed wholeheartedly.

Quoted message said:

(As for the fellow I saw on the Cable Street cycle path with a

flashing

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

_red_ light on the front of his bike...)

I've come across this a few times, the first time being on the
Bath-Bristol cyclepath.

It seemed to be 'fashionable' at the start of the lighting season last
Autumn here in Leicester - not seen it since, maybe, Christmas - maybe
there is something in Darwinism!