fixie frames

"Byron Sheppard" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I'd like to build a fixed gear bike, but only currently have an old MTB frame available. Is this
ok to use, or should I wait until I can find a

road

Quoted message said:

frame to invest in?

byron

Try this page for starters:

sheldonbrown.comfixed conversion.htmlOpen ↗

Reverend Brown is always a good place to start (c:

C.Q.C.

Byron Sheppard said:

I'd like to build a fixed gear bike, but only currently have an old MTB frame available. Is this
ok to use, or should I wait until I can find a road frame to invest in?

If it has vertical rear dropouts like most of them, best wait until you can find a road frame.
Otherwise you'll have to spend more money for a kludge to adjust the chain tension, or file out
the dropouts.

byron-<< I'd like to build a fixed gear bike, but only currently have an old MTB frame available. Is
this ok to use, or should I wait until I can find a road frame to invest in? >><BR><BR>

Tough to impossible to make a fixie with a MTB frameset unless it has horizontal dropouts, to get
chain tension correct. DO not use a tensioner with a fixie, a single speed(ability to coast) a chain
tensioner is OK, but not with a fixie.

Look for a cheapie road frame with horizontal dropouts...

Peter Chisholm Vecchio's Bicicletteria 1833 Pearl St. Boulder, CO, 80302
(303)440-3535 vecchios.comvecchios.comOpen ↗ "Ruote convenzionali costruite eccezionalmente bene"

Qui si parla Campagnolo said:

byron-<< I'd like to build a fixed gear bike, but only currently have an old MTB frame available.
Is this ok to use, or should I wait until I can find a road frame to invest in? >><BR><BR>

Tough to impossible to make a fixie with a MTB frameset unless it has horizontal dropouts, to get
chain tension correct. DO not use a tensioner with a fixie, a single speed(ability to coast) a
chain tensioner is OK, but not with a fixie.

Look for a cheapie road frame with horizontal dropouts...

Is there any reason why the White Industries eccentric ENO fixed gear hub [1] would not work in
this case?

[1] < whiteind.comeno.htmOpen ↗ >

Tom Sherman – Close to 41½? N, 90½ W

Tom Sherman said:

Qui si parla Campagnolo wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Tough to impossible to make a fixie with a MTB frameset unless it has horizontal dropouts, to get
chain tension correct. DO not use a tensioner with a fixie, a single speed(ability to coast) a
chain tensioner is OK, but not with a fixie.

Look for a cheapie road frame with horizontal dropouts...

Is there any reason why the White Industries eccentric ENO fixed gear hub
[1] would not work in this case?

Aside from the fact that you can easily get an old road frame, or even track, for less than the cost
of the hub, no, it would probably work. You do have to make sure it would fit the 135mm spacing of
the mountain bike, but that might not be a serious problem.

I am currently using a Shimano Nexus hub on a tandem frame with vertical dropouts, and it seems to
work. What you have to do is swap out sprockets and chainrings to get the proper chain tension. I
don't know that I'd be comfortable with that on a fixed hub, though. It also severely limits your
gearing options.

--

David L. Johnson

__o | And what if you track down these men and kill them, what if you _`\(,_ | killed all of us?
From every corner of Europe, hundreds, (_)/ (_) | thousands would rise up to take our places.
Even Nazis can't kill that fast. -- Paul Henreid (Casablanca).

Quoted message said:

byron-<< I'd like to build a fixed gear bike, but only currently have an old MTB frame available.
Is this ok to use, or should I wait until I can find a road frame to invest in? >><BR><BR>

Peter Chisholm replied:

Quoted message said:

Tough to impossible to make a fixie with a MTB frameset unless it has horizontal dropouts, to get
chain tension correct.

That _used_ do be correct, before the introduction of the White Industries ENO eccentric hub. See:

sheldonbrown.comwhite hubs.htmlOpen ↗

I've got one of these on my Rambouillet, and it works really well.

sheldonbrown.orgrambouilletOpen ↗

Quoted message said:

DO not use a tensioner with a fixie, a single speed(ability to coast) a chain tensioner is OK, but
not with a fixie.

That's correct. Now that the ENO hub is available, no reason to use a kludgy tensioner even for a
coasty singlespeed.

Sheldon "Eccentric" Brown +------------------------------------------------------+
| If a man does not keep pace with his companions, | perhaps it is because he hears a different
| drummer. | Let him step to the music which he hears, | however measured or far away. -- Thoreau |
+------------------------------------------------------+ Harris Cyclery, West Newton, Massachusetts
Phone 617-244-9772 FAX 617-244-1041 harriscyclery.comharriscyclery.comOpen ↗ Hard-to-find parts shipped Worldwide
captainbike.comcaptainbike.comOpen ↗ sheldonbrown.comsheldonbrown.comOpen ↗

Byron Sheppard said:

I'd like to build a fixed gear bike, but only currently have an old MTB frame available. Is this
ok to use, or should I wait until I can find a road frame to invest in?

Suitable Japanese sport frames of good quality from the seventies/eighties are dirt cheap at any
thrift store. Look for long horizontal ends. They will have plenty of clearance. (Seatpost diameter
is a quick rough guide to frame material)

Actually I just thought- that only makes sense if you intend to end up with a road format fixed.
Some riders prefer 26" wheels.

--
Andrew Muzi www.yellowjersey.org Open every day since 1 April, 1971

Sheldon Brown <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

byron-<< I'd like to build a fixed gear bike, but only currently have an old MTB frame
available. Is this ok to use, or should I wait until I can find a road frame to invest in?

Quoted message said:

><BR><BR>

Peter Chisholm replied:

Quoted message said:

Tough to impossible to make a fixie with a MTB frameset unless it has horizontal dropouts, to
get chain tension correct.

That _used_ do be correct, before the introduction of the White Industries ENO eccentric hub. See:

sheldonbrown.comwhite hubs.htmlOpen ↗

I've got one of these on my Rambouillet, and it works really well.

sheldonbrown.orgrambouilletOpen ↗

Quoted message said:

DO not use a tensioner with a fixie, a single speed(ability to coast) a chain tensioner is OK,
but not with a fixie.

That's correct. Now that the ENO hub is available, no reason to use a kludgy tensioner even for a
coasty singlespeed.

Sheldon "Eccentric" Brown

Dear Sheldon and Peter,

You both agree that a chain tensioner is a bad idea on a fixed-gear, so I believe it, but now I want
to know why.

Is it something do with how a fixed-gear reverses the load on the chain when braking?

Or is it something to do with the need to get the tension as close to right as possible?

Or what? Chain tensioners work on free-wheel derailleurs, so I figure that you both have some
interesting reason for warning against using them on fixed-gear or even on free-wheel single-speed.

Curiously,

Carl Fogel

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

byron-<< I'd like to build a fixed gear bike, but only

currently have

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

an old MTB frame available. Is this ok to use, or should I wait until I can find a road frame to
invest in? >><BR><BR>

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Qui si parla Campagnolo wrote: Tough to impossible to make a fixie with a MTB frameset unless it
has horizontal dropouts, to get chain tension correct. DO not use a tensioner with a fixie, a
single speed(ability to coast) a chain tensioner is OK, but not with a fixie. Look for a cheapie
road frame with horizontal dropouts...

Tom Sherman said:

Is there any reason why the White Industries eccentric ENO fixed gear hub [1] would not work in
this case?
[1] < whiteind.comeno.htmOpen ↗ >

Yes, perfectly functional.

But a lot of fixed aficionados seek simplicity in their machines and these kluges rub some folks the
wrong way.

I'm with Peter. A whole bike of useful dimensions is cheaper than that "cure".

--
Andrew Muzi www.yellowjersey.org Open every day since 1 April, 1971

Carl Fogel said:

Dear Sheldon and Peter,

You both agree that a chain tensioner is a bad idea on a fixed-gear, so I believe it, but now I
want to know why.

Is it something do with how a fixed-gear reverses the load on the chain when braking?

Right. This also applies to coaster brakes. If you use a tensioner, back pressure on the pedals will
cause the top run of chain to go slack, with the risk of the chain derailing from the chainring.

On a fixed gear, this can cause wheel lockup. On a coaster brake, it causes sudden brake failure.

Quoted message said:

Or what? Chain tensioners work on free-wheel derailleurs, so I figure that you both have
some interesting reason for warning against using them on fixed-gear or even on free-wheel
single-speed.

Not all that interesting, pretty obvious if you think about it.

In the case of a freewheeling singlespeed, it's safe enough, but it's an ugly kludge, detracting
from the simplicity of a simple drivetrain.

Sheldon "Fixed Gear Is More Fun" Brown +-----------------------------------------------+
| I don't need instructions, I have a hammer. | -- T.W. Wier |
+-----------------------------------------------+ Harris Cyclery, West Newton, Massachusetts Phone
617-244-9772 FAX 617-244-1041 harriscyclery.comharriscyclery.comOpen ↗ Hard-to-find parts shipped Worldwide
captainbike.comcaptainbike.comOpen ↗ sheldonbrown.comsheldonbrown.comOpen ↗

Carl Fogel said:

You both agree that a chain tensioner is a bad idea on a fixed-gear, so I believe it, but now I
want to know why.

Is it something do with how a fixed-gear reverses the load on the chain when braking?

Absolutely. Any back-pressure, either intentional or accidental, would risk breaking the idler.

Quoted message said:

Or what? Chain tensioners work on free-wheel derailleurs, so I figure that you both have
some interesting reason for warning against using them on fixed-gear or even on free-wheel
single-speed.

No problem with a free-wheel singles speed.

--

David L. Johnson

__o | Arguing with an engineer is like mud wrestling with a pig... You _`\(,_ | soon find out the
pig likes it! (_)/ (_) |

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

byron-<< I'd like to build a fixed gear bike, but only

currently have an old

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

MTB frame available. Is this ok to use, or should I wait until I can find a road frame to invest
in? >><BR><BR>

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Peter Chisholm replied:

Quoted message said:

Tough to impossible to make a fixie with a MTB frameset unless it has horizontal dropouts, to get
chain tension correct.

Quoted message said:

Sheldon Brown <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

That _used_ do be correct, before the introduction of the White Industries ENO eccentric hub. See:
sheldonbrown.comwhite hubs.htmlOpen ↗ I've got one of these on my Rambouillet, and it
works really well. sheldonbrown.orgrambouilletOpen ↗

(pc)>>>DO not use a tensioner with

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

a fixie, a single speed(ability to coast) a chain tensioner is OK, but not with a fixie.

(sb)>>That's correct. Now that the ENO hub is available, no reason to use a

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

kludgy tensioner even for a coasty singlespeed.

Carl Fogel said:

You both agree that a chain tensioner is a bad idea on a fixed-gear, so I believe it, but now I
want to know why.

-snip-

With a freewheel, the chain is only tight across the top run.

We've previously discussed the awesome power of chain under tension (remember the rider who hung his
bike by the back wheel to tension the chain?). No mere grammar school science project will bear that
load. Sheldon and Peter are exactly correct.

--
Andrew Muzi www.yellowjersey.org Open every day since 1 April, 1971

Tom-

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Is there any reason why the White Industries eccentric ENO fixed gear hub [1] would not work in
this case?

A usually reliable poster answered:

Quoted message said:

Think so...

Nope. Better to post when you know the answer, not guesswork.

Quoted message said:

I don't know if it's 135mm spacing tho.

We stock them in 126, 130 and 135 spacing.

See: sheldonbrown.comwhite hubs.htmlOpen ↗

Quoted message said:

Seems really expensive for a fixie conversion tho.

If you consider that the quality is comparable to Phil Wood, and that a decent chain tensioner cost
fifty bucks, it's a pretty decent value.

Then again, I've also seen folks spend a lot more to get new fork ends brazed in and their
paint ruined.

Sheldon "A Great Product" Brown +--------------------------------------------------------+
| Westheimer's Discovery: |
| A couple of months in the laboratory can frequently |
| save a couple of hours in the library. |
+--------------------------------------------------------+ Harris Cyclery, West Newton,
Massachusetts Phone 617-244-9772 FAX 617-244-1041 harriscyclery.comharriscyclery.comOpen ↗ Hard-to-find parts
shipped Worldwide captainbike.comcaptainbike.comOpen ↗ sheldonbrown.comsheldonbrown.comOpen ↗

In article <[email hidden]>,

Sheldon Brown said:

Carl Fogel said:

Dear Sheldon and Peter,

You both agree that a chain tensioner is a bad idea on a fixed-gear, so I believe it, but now I
want to know why.

Is it something do with how a fixed-gear reverses the load on the chain when braking?

[yes]

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Or what? Chain tensioners work on free-wheel derailleurs, so I figure that you both have some
interesting reason for warning against using them on fixed-gear or even on free-wheel single-
speed.

Not all that interesting, pretty obvious if you think about it.

In the case of a freewheeling singlespeed, it's safe enough, but it's an ugly kludge, detracting
from the simplicity of a simple drivetrain.

I have something to show you:

norco.com4hun.jpgOpen ↗

As you can see, a picture of a singlespeed (in this case, the 2003 Norco 4Hun, a hardtail dirt-
jumping bike, sort of a big angry BMX with a suspension fork and disc brakes) with a single-wheel
tensioner (ie not a converted derailleur).

It may not be true on this bike, but it appears that if you could adapt this tensioner design so
that the tensioner still had chainstay clearance when the bottom chain-run came tight, you could
make a tensioner work on a fixed-gear as well. One kludge would be to move the tensioner mount
forward so it was closer to the front sprocket.

There's a bigger question, though: why does this bike, which has a very skookum rear-facing
horizontal fork ends, need a tensioner?

Hint: Norco couldn't answer that question either, as the 2004 model does not have a tensioner:

norco.com1hun.jpgOpen ↗

(not strictly the same model, but it's the only singlespeed dirt jumper Norco will be selling next
year. I guess those dirt jumpers were shiftier than they thought).

-RjC.

--
Ryan Cousineau, [email hidden] sfu.ca~rcousineOpen ↗ President, Fabrizio Mazzoleni Fan Club

Ryan Cousineau said:

I have something to show you:

norco.com4hun.jpgOpen ↗

As you can see, a picture of a singlespeed (in this case, the 2003 Norco 4Hun, a hardtail dirt-
jumping bike, sort of a big angry BMX with a suspension fork and disc brakes) with a single-wheel
tensioner (ie not a converted derailleur).

It may not be true on this bike, but it appears that if you could adapt this tensioner design so
that the tensioner still had chainstay clearance when the bottom chain-run came tight, you could
make a tensioner work on a fixed-gear as well.

If it was a spring-loaded tensioner, it would still cause the top run of chain to go slack, and
likely derail.

If it was a rigid tensioner it would have to be ungodly strong to hold up under backpressure.

Quoted message said:

There's a bigger question, though: why does this bike, which has a very skookum rear-facing
horizontal fork ends, need a tensioner?

Hint: Norco couldn't answer that question either, as the 2004 model does not have a tensioner:

norco.com1hun.jpgOpen ↗

That looks more like a BMX/Freestyle bike, that can't decide whatthehell it is s'posed to be, also
featuring a brake rotor and a derailer hanger. If it's s'posed do be a BMX bike, why the rotor? If
it's s'posed to be a freestyle bike for aerial stuff, why the 36 spoke wheels? If it's s'posed to be
a freestyle bike for flatland, why no front brake (though it does have a disk mount in front.

The photo seems to show a cantilever boss even with the rim, too high for normal cantilevers, too
low for a U-brake...?

Personally, I don't think that horizontal, adjustable fork ends are a good combination with a rear
disc brake anyway.

Sheldon "Won't Be Buying One Of Those" Brown +----------------------------------------------------+
| The two most common elements in the Universe are | hydrogen and stupidity. --Harlan Ellison |
+----------------------------------------------------+ Harris Cyclery, West Newton, Massachusetts
Phone 617-244-9772 FAX 617-244-1041 harriscyclery.comharriscyclery.comOpen ↗ Hard-to-find parts shipped Worldwide
captainbike.comcaptainbike.comOpen ↗ sheldonbrown.comsheldonbrown.comOpen ↗

Sheldon Brown <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Carl Fogel said:

Dear Sheldon and Peter,

You both agree that a chain tensioner is a bad idea on a fixed-gear, so I believe it, but now I
want to know why.

Is it something do with how a fixed-gear reverses the load on the chain when braking?

Right. This also applies to coaster brakes. If you use a tensioner, back pressure on the pedals
will cause the top run of chain to go slack, with the risk of the chain derailing from the
chainring.

On a fixed gear, this can cause wheel lockup. On a coaster brake, it causes sudden brake failure.

Quoted message said:

Or what? Chain tensioners work on free-wheel derailleurs, so I figure that you both have some
interesting reason for warning against using them on fixed-gear or even on free-wheel single-
speed.

Not all that interesting, pretty obvious if you think about it.

In the case of a freewheeling singlespeed, it's safe enough, but it's an ugly kludge, detracting
from the simplicity of a simple drivetrain.

Sheldon "Fixed Gear Is More Fun" Brown

Dear Sheldon,

It may be obvious, but why doesn't the trailing-arm lower-run chain tensioner on my trials
motorcycle derail the chain or destroy itself?

The motorcycle is essentially a fixed gear with far more power and load. The chain happily reverses
tension hard enough to chirp a 4.50" rear tire on pavement if I chop the throttle carelessly. It has
plenty of slack to accomodate rear-axle suspension travel.

The chain tensioner was added in the late '60's to make ultra-low-speed riding smoother. The
only problem that I know of is that some pad blocks wore out too easily, but better materials
solved that.

Are we talking about the same chain-tensioning design?

Carl Fogel

Carl Fogel asked:

Quoted message said:

It may be obvious, but why doesn't the trailing-arm lower-run chain tensioner on my trials
motorcycle derail the chain or destroy itself?

The motorcycle is essentially a fixed gear with far more power and load. The chain happily
reverses tension hard enough to chirp a 4.50" rear tire on pavement if I chop the throttle
carelessly. It has plenty of slack to accomodate rear-axle suspension travel.

I don't claim to know much about motorcycles. Is there room that the chain could derail from the
front sprocket if it wiggled sideways?

It is also my impression that motorcycle chains are generally rather wider than those on bicycles,
so presumably less flexible laterally.

Quoted message said:

The chain tensioner was added in the late '60's to make ultra-low-speed riding smoother. The
only problem that I know of is that some pad blocks wore out too easily, but better materials
solved that.

Are we talking about the same chain-tensioning design?

I dunno, what's a "pad block?"

In general, motor vehicles can get away with extra doodads that add friction to the drivetrain much
better than bicycles can, since the owner doesn't need to supply the motive power.

Sheldon "Bicycle Mechanic" Brown +--------------------------------------------------------------+
| No state has an inherent right to survive through | conscript troops and, in the long run, no
| state ever has. | --Robert A. Heinlein |
+--------------------------------------------------------------+ Harris Cyclery, West Newton,
Massachusetts Phone 617-244-9772 FAX 617-244-1041 harriscyclery.comharriscyclery.comOpen ↗ Hard-to-find parts
shipped Worldwide captainbike.comcaptainbike.comOpen ↗ sheldonbrown.comsheldonbrown.comOpen ↗

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I'd like to build a fixed gear bike, but only currently have an old MTB frame available. Is this
ok to use, or should I wait until I can

find a road

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

frame to invest in?

Look for a cheapie road frame with horizontal dropouts... Peter Chisholm

Given that one cannot use a conventional derailer-type chain tensioner for a fixie because
backpedaling would rip it off. I think I saw on a tandem one time, as a chain tensioner for the sync
chain, a chainring (with diameter greater than the vertical distance between chain runs) suspended
between the upper/lower chain runs. As the top run went forward, the rear run went backward, and the
ring stayed in the same place. Could such a contraption be used as a "chain tensioner" on a fixie w/
vertical dropouts? Matt

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Carl Fogel wrote: You both agree that a chain tensioner is a bad idea on a fixed-gear, so I
believe it, but now I want to know why.

-snip-

Quoted message said:

In article <[email hidden]>,

Sheldon Brown said:

In the case of a freewheeling singlespeed, it's safe enough, but it's an ugly kludge, detracting
from the simplicity of a simple drivetrain.

Ryan Cousineau said:

I have something to show you: norco.com4hun.jpgOpen ↗ As you can see, a
picture of a singlespeed (in this case, the 2003 Norco 4Hun, a hardtail dirt-jumping bike, sort of
a big angry BMX with a suspension fork and disc brakes) with a single-wheel tensioner (ie not a
converted derailleur).

-snip-

Quoted message said:

why?

-snip-

Quoted message said:

Hint: Norco couldn't answer that question either, as the 2004 model does not have a tensioner:

-snip-

Why? Because it sells!

There has always been a 'gadget' crowd and they just love anything with Victorian or Rube Goldberg
engineering. They love the little "bellows" on linear brake cables, for example and buy them for
their dual pivots. They want to discuss the 'action' of the $99 full suspension models at XMart. The
more articulated the better. They went for PMP cranks. They ask us to build wheels with 'twisted'
spokes. The kind of guys who paw the stirrup brakes on roadsters, ask us to "add" disc brakes to garbage-
picked bikes, and obsess over 'friction losses' in their derailleur pulleys.

Ryan, you understand more about bicycles than about pandering.

--
Andrew Muzi www.yellowjersey.org Open every day since 1 April, 1971