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Fitting Bikes

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Road Cycling
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14 August 2003
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19 August 2003
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Elisa Francesca
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  1. [email hidden] (elisa francesca roselli) wrote in message
    news:<[email hidden]>...

    **disclaimer: any cultural observations I make below are totally my own, and based on my own
    conjectures and experience...If I'm wrong, tell me, and we'll see.**

    Quoted message said:


    It is another aspect of French arrogance (global or otherwise) that if you live in the suburbs and
    refuse to own and drive a car, why, you are simply a non-person. The whole basis of my cycling
    passion is that I _REFUSE_ to join the ranks of polluters in this autumn of my life. Did last
    week's forty degree heat fail to convince anyone? What about the forest fires that have ravaged
    half the continent? Portugal alone lost the total surface area of Luxembourg in forestation.

    Perhaps, being French, they've all read Braudel, and have concluded that since human agency is just
    surface froth over the deeper tides of history--the geographical and ecological constraints that
    make themselves felt in the longue duree--they've all decided, que l'enfer, to carry on
    regardless....

    *grin*

    [had to dig at the _Annales_ school somewhere! And anyway, the biggest bit of european deforestation
    happened in the 16th-17th centuries, as I recall, before coal replaced charcoal as industrial fuel]

    Quoted message said:

    But socially, I'm in a very isolated position. Cycling clubs are for sports enthusiasts, not for
    middle-aged beginners with a religion of Conservation.

    Your experience with cycling more or less parallels my own with baseball.

    Let me explain.

    I played baseball (badly) when I was a kid in the States. Being clumsy, nearsighted, and generally
    helpless--and not having a father or who could play ball, either--I wasn't too good. I soldiered
    through Little League, played a bit in Junior High, warmed the bench for a couple of years in High
    School. But things got increasingly annoying...while I was just thrilled to be out there and have a
    chance to play ball, the whole baseball scene after age 13 gets pretty ugly. Slides can happen
    spikes-up. Patience grows extremely thin. and if you can't get with the program quickly--that's it,
    goodbye. Life gets dominated by guys who think they're talented enough to hit, run, and pitch you
    into the ground. Well, it wasn't my scene, and I gave up when I was sixteen, studied, and got decent
    results in my exams.

    I went away to Cambridge, and discovered I missed it, and joined the baseball club out there.
    Miracle: here were people (and not just Americans--Englishmen, Canadians, a Palestinian, Mexicans,
    Japanese, Venezuelans, Scotsmen...) who were just happy to be out playing ball on a sunny afternoon.
    Amateurs of the purest sort. I ended up running the club for two years. I loved it.

    I would suppose that it would be as difficult to find affable, nonjudgemental, and generally
    tolerant cyclists in France for the same reason the same sorts of people are tough to find in
    America: since the sport is such a national passion, with such a great deal of prestige afforded to
    competition and success, mere mortals are turned off and turned away from the sport. Net effect: it
    remains a national passion, but one that is worshipped, most often, from afar.

    Quoted message said:

    Accessibilites all assume availability of a car. LBSs assume you're an athlete. And France, in
    marked contrast to the UK (my favorite country, Luigi, how I envy you), is extremely intolerant of
    eccentrics and script-breakers.

    The vaunted English tolerance for eccentricity helps. But in terms of actual physical reality on the
    ground, the the UK isn't much better, I'm afraid. Your bicycle access on the RER would be envied by
    thousands of multi-modal cycle commuters into London. A quick look at uk.rec.cycling will probably
    dredge up enough posts about bad road design, and stupid/intolerant/homicidal motorists to place it
    squarely with any other gathering of cyclists...

    The centre of Cambridge is an anomaly by any standards. Density, narrow, midieval streets, a notable
    absence of hills, and the proctorial prohibition on student automobiles (still in effect!) combine
    to shift the transportational balance in favour of the bicycle.

    Cycling in London is an entirely different game altogether. The presence (and continuing expansion)
    of Bus Lanes (closed to all traffic save bicycles, buses, and taxis), marked on-street cycle routes
    gives the cyclist a great deal of space, actually. I am convinced that the presence of so many black
    cabs--whose drivers are subjected to the most stringent licensing regulations for taxis of which I
    am aware--also helps things along: these chaps are skilled and polite enough, in their own way, to
    give a cyclist a degree of faith in the predictability of his motorized companions.

    The downside, of course, is that London is still a hugely congested and polluted city. (I am
    heartened that now (only now!?) emissions testing will become mandatory for motorists in London..)
    The sheer volume and speed of traffic are intimidating to the beginner. One either grows a thick
    skin, or abandons the struggle. Add to this the bewildering confusion that is the London street
    system, and an unnerving tendency for bus lanes and cycle lanes to terminate suddenly and with
    extreme prejudice in awkward spots, and the legions of pedestrians just dying to jaywalk in front of
    you, and things can get pretty annoying, too.

    My cycling experience in North America is restricted to the Virginia-side suburbs of Washington, DC.
    Here, there are so few cyclists, sporting, utilitarian, or otherwise, that very little provision is
    made in normal street planning for their presence. Road rage can be a serious problem, as motorists
    with a dim understanding of the law attempt to run you off the road with cries of "get off the
    road!" or "get on the bikepath!" or even less printable advice. In the North American context, bikes
    are toys, and nobody short of a few hippies (so think the Majority) considers them as serious
    transport, or a real sport, or whatever. Getting around is thus probably as hard for most cyclists
    as your struggles in l'Ile de France...but it's possible. All you need is determination: and nothing
    gives me determination like the knowledge that I've got to get from A to B on my bicycle--no
    bailing-out allowed.

    On the positive, the absolute paucity of cyclists, serious or otherwise, has created a very
    tight-knit community among cyclists of all types. I find myself waving at other cyclists in the
    US--they're so rare!--and they wave back. I can't do that in London or Cambridge--in the former
    case, I'd get into traffic trouble very quickly, and in the latter, my waving-muscles would get
    sore. Cyclists will generally see if your'e okay if they see you stopped. Cyclists who also are
    motorists are also extremely helpful. Everybody seems pretty happy to lend a hand--your'e just
    another comrade in the Movement, after all.

    bon courage,

    Luigi

  2. Quoted message said:

    Make sure you know just what you're saying when you insult someone in another language, or you
    could get shot.

    When in the Pyrenees, I was careful to not even joke about my speaking French like a Spanish Cow,
    figuring that could possibly be seen as insulting to the Spainards. Still, probably wouldn't have
    been shot. Now if I'd said that I spoke French like a BASQUE cow... I might have found the limits of
    some people's sense of humor!

    --Mike-- Chain Reaction Bicycles www.ChainReaction.com

    "Steve McDonald" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    "]news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:


    Mike J. escrito:

    Pardon, Je parle francais comme une vache espagnole.

    "I can hear them thinking "Ah, voila la grosse connasse (sp), qui ne sait meme pas cycler, et
    qui vient nous emmerder encore."

    What the heck does that mean??? The literal Babelfish translation
    is:

    "Ah, veiled the large [censored], who cannot same step cycle, and which still comes us emmerder."
    ------------------------------------------------------------------

    For Babelfish, that's about par. They don't handle accent marks very well, and I usually omit
    non-English marks on newsgroup postings anyway, as many readers can't decode them.

    Although I would never use such talk about anyone, even if in France, here's the essential
    translation from French: "Ah, there's the stupid broad, who doesn't even know how to ride a
    bicycle, who's coming to bother us again.". Alternately, that might refer to a "fat, smartass
    woman who doesn't know diddly", but a lot can vary in colloquial translations, so take your
    pick. Make sure you know just what you're saying when you insult someone in another language,
    or you could get shot.

    Steve McDonald

  3. Steve McDonald said:

    E. Roselli ecrit:

    My tactic was to put the seat way down to kiddie level, as when I first started learning.
    This position is not comfortable for pedalling, but it let me test cycling with a relative
    handlebar height much higher than I currently have.
    ---------------------------------------------------------------

    There are handlebar stem extenders you can buy for about $20. in the U.S. These can add as
    much as 10cm to the height of the bars. I have them on 3 of my bikes and they work very well
    to give me the right height in relation to the seat. For my own particular needs, they make
    things much more comfortable and efficient. They are very solid and cause no loss of control
    for me. Since I moved the bars all the way up, I had to replace the brake and derailleur
    cables for them to be long enough.

    Since your experiment with the seat gave you a better relative handlebar height, this might
    be a good adaptation to try. Good luck in finding such a thing where you are. Mailorder might
    be the answer. They come with directions. Make sure the extender is the same diameter as your
    bike's stem. Another excursion in abuse from the jokers at your local bike shop might be
    necessary to carry this out. As I said before, learning a few basic maintenance procedures
    would be helpful in doing this. Or, you could make some bicycling friends who have tools and
    who like to be helpful. As-tu de bonne chance, aujourd'hui?

    Steve McDonald

    It does sound like a stem extension will help. I bought one for my commuter/mountain bike a few
    years ago for $9.00 CAD in Vancouver. It made my bike much more pleasant to ride. I *think* you are
    on the right track there! Sorry about your bike shop. They do not merit getting your money! I hope
    you find a decent bicycle mechanic, be it a professional shop or a friend who can fix the simple
    problems bicycles regularly present to a regular rider such as yourself. So I say "good luck and may
    you go forth with a light heart" Bernie

  4. I'll enquire about an extender. I must say that my experiments with leaning forward were not very
    encouraging and seemed to make the problem worse. I don't think the handlebar needs 10 cm more
    height because I only took about 3 cm off the seat height to get the desired ratio. Perhaps the
    design of my bike is based on an assumption of shorter women with lower seats.

    I've had some disappointments with mail-order. I tried to buy one of those Third Eye rearview
    mirrors from Nashbar.com, only to have them inform me about six weeks later, when I chased up the
    order, that despite their alleged international shipping they would not ship to France. That kind of
    pettiness really pisses me off.

    Elisa Francesca Roselli Ile de France

    Steve McDonald <[email hidden]> a écrit dans le message :
    [email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    There are handlebar stem extenders you can buy for about $20. in the U.S.

    Quoted message said:

    Since your experiment with the seat gave you a better relative handlebar height, this might
    be a good adaptation to try. Good luck in finding such a thing where you are. Mailorder might
    be the answer.

  5. Quoted message said:

    That kind of pettiness really pisses me off.

    Pettiness n'importe où pisserait outre d'un saint.

    La France n'a-t-elle pas la vente par correspondance?

    Engagez vos vitesses et, comme les marines disent, improvisez, adaptez et surmontez.

    Rome n'a pas été construit en jour. Laissez ceci être votre jour.

    --

    _______________________ALL AMIGA IN MY MIND_______________________ ------------------"Buddy Holly,
    the Texas Elvis"------------------
    __________306.350.357.38>>[email hidden]__________

  6. "Elisa Francesca Roselli" wrote

    Quoted message said:

    I've had some disappointments with mail-order. I tried to buy one of those Third Eye rearview
    mirrors from Nashbar.com, only to have them inform me about six weeks later, when I chased up the
    order, that despite their alleged international shipping they would not ship to France. That kind
    of pettiness really pisses me off.

    Elisa Francesca Roselli Ile de France

    www.xxcycle.com is a French mail order store with a website in English and French. I was very
    satisfied with the service I got when they shipped a crankset to me in the US; presumably they can
    do as well shipping to their own country. HTH,
    --
    mark

  7. mark <[email hidden]> a écrit dans le message :
    [email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    www.xxcycle.com is a French mail order store with a website in English


    and

    Quoted message said:

    French. I was very satisfied with the service I got when they shipped a crankset to me in the US;
    presumably they can do as well shipping to their own country. HTH,

    Thanks for the link. I've visited them now and can find nothing that looks anything like a handlebar
    extender as I imagine it. They do have some strange phallic articles that answer to a search on
    "extension", which seem to clamp around the handlebar stem and stick out from it at a 90 degree
    angle. What are those used for? I doubt that is what is meant in this thread as they do not seem to
    lengthen the handlebar stem, just bring the control closer to the rider or enable him/her to steer
    with one hand.

    I will do some more research on mail-order on Monday. With any luck I might be able to find a dealer
    in the UK. (I do speak French, but somehow have trouble communicating with _the_ French!)

    Thanks again,

    Elisa Francesca Roselli Ile de France

  8. "Luigi de Guzman" <[email hidden]> wrote:

    [snip]

    Quoted message said:

    I would suppose that it would be as difficult to find affable, nonjudgemental, and generally
    tolerant cyclists in France for the same reason the same sorts of people are tough to find in
    America: since the sport is such a national passion, with such a great deal of prestige afforded
    to competition and success, mere mortals are turned off and turned away from the sport. Net
    effect: it remains a national passion, but one that is worshipped, most often, from afar.

    I think you're partly right, but not all of the intolerance comes from the cyclosportifs. Having a
    foot in each camp, I've discovered that utility cyclists can be as quick to mock a shaven calf or a
    cleated shoe as racers can be to sneer at a dynamo hub or a bar-end mirror. For the most part this
    is just the common aversion of jock for geek and vice versa, and a heartening proportion of each
    camp seems content to coexist with the other.

    James Thomson

  9. Quoted message said:

    For the most part this is just the common aversion of jock for geek and vice versa, and a
    heartening proportion of each camp seems content to coexist with the other.

    What "seems" to be true isn't necessarily reality.

    --

    _______________________ALL AMIGA IN MY MIND_______________________ ------------------"Buddy Holly,
    the Texas Elvis"------------------
    __________306.350.357.38>>[email hidden]__________

  10. "Elisa Francesca Roselli" wrote

    Quoted message said:

    Thanks for the link. I've visited them now and can find nothing that looks anything like a
    handlebar extender as I imagine it. They do have some strange phallic articles that answer to a
    search on "extension", which


    seem

    Quoted message said:

    to clamp around the handlebar stem and stick out from it at a 90 degree angle. What are those used
    for? I doubt that is what is meant in this


    thread

    Quoted message said:

    as they do not seem to lengthen the handlebar stem, just bring the control closer to the rider or
    enable him/her to steer with one hand.

    I will do some more research on mail-order on Monday. With any luck I


    might

    Quoted message said:

    be able to find a dealer in the UK. (I do speak French, but somehow have trouble communicating
    with _the_ French!)

    Thanks again,

    Elisa Francesca Roselli Ile de France


    Sorry the link wasn't more useful, but keep them in mind for future purchases. The phallic articles
    that you mention sound a little bit like aerodynamic handlebars which enable the rider to ride in a
    very aerodynamic position with both hands extended in front of the rider, similar to the tuck
    position used by ski racers. Very useful for time trialers and triathletes, but useless for all
    other types of racing or for commuters, due to the poor steering control.

    Here are two newsgroups that might be of interest: uk.rec.cycling is a British newsgroup with a
    large population of cycle commuters, and some very knowledgable, articulate regular posters. They
    should be able to help you find some good UK mail order houses, and I'm sure they'll understand your
    troubles communicating with the French 🙂.

    rec.bicycles.tech is a mostly American newsgroup, some of the regulars are bike shop owners and
    bicycle industry people who know a great deal about fitting bicycles, compatibility of parts, etc.

    www.coloradocyclist.com has a very good page on bicycle fit. Their merchandise is very racer
    oriented, but the information on bicycle fit is worth looking at.

    www.rivendellbicycles.com also has some good articles on bicycle fit that may help you. They offer,
    among other things, the Nitto Dirt Drop stem, which may or may not fit your bike, and may or may not
    solve your problem.

    You seem to have ended up with a rather badly fitting bike. It just might be worth your while to
    learn as much as you can about fitting bicycles, make the trip into Paris to find a shop that
    deserves your patronage, and make the investment in a new bike, one that fits better without a lot
    of swapping around of parts.

    HTH,
    --
    mark

  11. x-no-archive:yes

    ..

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    "Doug Huffman"> wrote in part:

    Quoted message said:

    I am sorry to hear of your abuse. Globalism ((archly)) sucks when


    American

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    big-box stores' attitude is exported to France.

    Quoted message said:


    Poor customer service and rudeness are not uniquely American attributes. Besides, if you're going
    to use stereotypes I wouldn't think the French


    would

    Quoted message said:

    have any need to *import* rudeness or a supercilious attitude. <g>

    Regards, Bob Hunt

    Bob, didn't you know that everybody else in the world is always perfect in every way and it is only
    "American" this and that which makes them behave badly from time to time? I could tell some stories
    about French rudeness, German rudeness, Swiss rudeness--and even being cheated in Scotland (and
    there was no language barrier there!).

    Pat in TX

  12. James Thomson said:

    You always have the option of disembarking at the last surface station and entering Paris by bike,
    though I accept this may be daunting. Many stations also have wheelchair access, which in some
    circumstances means lifts from platform level to the surface. There's a list on the RATP website,
    and fr.misc.transport.velo users may be able to advise on individual cases.

    I'll check out the list. I'd really need just an averagely well-located RER stop, Luxembourg, say,
    to have a practical exit and entry for cyclists to give it a whirl. I'm bored cycling in hideous
    Essonne - the tract between my home and the HQ of my office is so desolating that it makes me think
    of John Betjamin's invocation of Friendly Bombs. As for escalators, I have a problem getting on
    those _without_ a bike. I can sometimes manage an Up escalator, although it takes so long to psych
    myself up to it that it's generally not worth it in crowds, and almost never a Down escalator. I
    find the ones in the Paris Metro move much too fast for me.

    Yes, I do know that the RATP offers a bike-hire service for Central Paris at Chatelet.

    Quoted message said:

    In the longer term, you might consider a folding bike to make use of the fullest range of
    multi-modal options.

    velo-pliant.comvelo-pliant.com

    At that point, my tendency would be to revert to my beloved, eminently practical Xootr trotinette.
    But I can see myself eventually collecting a range of cycles. The first big expense, though, will be
    for a pedelec.

    Quoted message said:

    Sports clubs are not the only cycling organisations, and many sporting cyclists also cycle for
    practical reasons. The MDB, whose URL I posted previously, and Fubicy [ fubicy.orgfubicy.org ] are
    active in bicycle advocacy, organising maintenance groups, mentoring, etc. The MDB-IDF site lists
    a number of contacts in Essonne:

    mdb-idf.orgassos idf.html

    I'm already a member of MDB and get their bulletin, although I don't have time to make it to their
    events. There also seems to be a Velo club in Massy which I plan to contact. However, I'm really not
    a mixer type at all, and have never been able to function in groups (the Introversion score on my
    Myers-Briggs INTP reading was so high it was off the scales). I also do not like to impose myself on
    others when I feel I have nothing to offer them, and only pursue them for what they can offer me,
    which would be the case with cycling. It's different in commercial situations where I come ready to
    offer my money.

    Quoted message said:

    I realise this seems like a struggle, but it's important to realise that you're not alone, and
    that with determination and the right help, you will succeed, as others have struggled and
    succeeded.

    Thanks for your kind encouragement. I certainly intend to continue, alone or otherwise. %>

    Elisa Francesca Roselli Ile de France

  13. James Thomson said:

    Europe has many competent mail-order houses.

    I've found a Scottish one on the Net which seems very approachable:

    edinburgh-bicycle.co.ukedinburgh-bicycle.co.uk

    They have some interesting adjustable stem options under "Stems that do more than hang around in
    'bars". There's one called a Kalloy Adjustable Angle Quill Stem which I may soon buy - the portion
    that angles out for the "reach" is hinged and can be set from 0 to 60 degrees. They also have an
    extra long quill stem but it seems to be out of stock. (And incidentally, they stock an excellent
    neon-yellow reflector rain poncho which answers to a quest from another thread).

    My next problem is to determine what size of stem I will need. They have two sizes, that they call
    "Standard" and "Avenger". They say:

    <<Until 10 years ago, nearly every bike had a fork with a 1” (25.4mm external diameter) threaded
    steerer into which a 7/8” (22.2mm) stem quill was inserted. This dimension is still referred to as
    Standard. Over the past decade, more and more bicycle frames have been built with beefed-up head
    tubes designed to take oversized 11/8” (28.6mm) diameter fork steerers. This size is called Avenger.
    A threaded Avenger fork steerer takes a 1” (25.4mm) diameter stem quill. >>

    I tried to determine the diameter of the stem currently on Myrtille by taking its circumference and
    dividing by 3.1416. That rough measure came out fractionally over 29 mm, which coalesces more with
    the definition Avenger than of Standard, but I'm still unconvinced. Admittedly they are talking
    about an internal diameter as opposed to an external one, but where it's a question of millimeters
    and mail order I need more accuracy. Also perhaps British and Continental measures differ.

    I checked all the documents that came with my bike to see if there was a precise specification, but
    found none. Finally, I made the mistake of going back to my supermarket dealer. I found the same
    young ditzhead who was there on Thursday. With no idea of where to find an accurate spec, he just
    took his ruler to the ring join between the fork and the stem and came up with a "diameter" of 40
    cms. All the while, he inisited that I could confidently buy a "standard" size, even if his measure
    and mine strongly suggest otherwise.

    I think my only option is to wait for my snooty LBS to reopen in September and ask them if they can
    sell me a longer stem. That will put them in a poistion to provide an opinion on the measurement. If
    they stock something suitable, fine, otherwise I'll mail order and get them to give me a quote for
    installing it.

    I only hope that the supermarket bicycles don't have components that are in sizes exclusive to them,
    so as to force customers to purchase all spares with them only.

    Elisa Francesca Roselli Ile de France

  14. Elisa Francesca Roselli said:

    I've found a Scottish [mail-order shop] on the Net which seems very approachable:

    Quoted message said:

    edinburgh-bicycle.co.ukedinburgh-bicycle.co.uk

    EBC used to stock the Georgena Terry stem. I've never bought from them, but I haven't heard many
    complaints.

    Quoted message said:

    They have some interesting adjustable stem options under "Stems that do more than hang around in
    'bars". There's one called a Kalloy Adjustable Angle Quill Stem which I may soon buy - the portion
    that angles out for the "reach" is hinged and can be set from to 60 degrees.

    I've seen these locally, though I can't remember where - probably Decathlon or Bicloune.
    Roseversand.de also sell a version.

    Quoted message said:

    My next problem is to determine what size of stem I will need. They have two sizes, that they call
    "Standard" and "Avenger".

    Quoted message said:

    I tried to determine the diameter of the stem currently on Myrtille by taking its circumference
    and dividing by 3.1416. That rough measure came out fractionally over 29 mm, which coalesces more
    with the definition Avenger than of Standard, but I'm still unconvinced. Admittedly they are
    talking about an internal diameter as opposed to an external one, but where it's a question of
    millimeters and mail order I need more accuracy.

    You might find it easier to measure across the flats of the locknut of the headset (at the upper
    part of the steering bearing, where the stem emerges from the frame). A 1" headset uses a 32mm
    locknut, while a 1 1/8" headset uses a 36mm locknut. There are a few exceptions, but this would be a
    strong indication of the quill size you need.

    Quoted message said:

    Also perhaps British and Continental measures differ.

    Standardisation has increased to the point where very few bikes now deviate from the 1" or 1 1/8"
    norms. French-threaded headsets are no more.

    James Thomson

  15. James Thomson said:

    You might find it easier to measure across the flats of the locknut of the headset (at the upper
    part of the steering bearing, where the stem emerges from the frame). A 1" headset uses a 32mm
    locknut, while a 1 1/8" headset uses a 36mm locknut. There are a few exceptions, but this would be
    a strong indication of the quill size you need.

    Now, that's interesting. The locknut does indeed seem to be 40mm across, as perceived by the person
    at the shop, although access is complicated by the presence of the wire basket, which fastens on at
    the same place. So I still cannot recognize a standard, unless it be the Cora Supermarket Standard,
    unique unto itself.

    I shall continue researching this. Thanks for the tip.

    Elisa Francesca Roselli Ile de France

  16. Elisa Francesca Roselli said:

    Now, that's interesting. The locknut does indeed seem to be 40mm across, as perceived by the
    person at the shop, although access is complicated by the presence of the wire basket, which
    fastens on at the same place. So I still cannot recognize a standard, unless it be the Cora
    Supermarket Standard, unique unto itself.

    1 1/4" headsets commonly used a 40mm locknut, but the size is obsolete. It's very unlikely that
    that's what you have, though it would tie in with your quill measurement of 29mm - a 1 1/4" steerer
    takes a 1 1/8" (28.6mm) quill. Cora Supermarkets! Who knows?

    James Thomson

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