* First time swim intervals

Jason O'Rourke said:

Cam Wilson said:

was i asking for an opinion on my speed? nope. i'm just a beginner about to do a beginner's tri.
and i'm rather new to swimming too. i just want to get out there, do my best, and have fun.

BTW, it doesn't take me 3:30 to do 100m. please read the whole thread before making a comment
like that. you only caught the tail end of it.

Quoted message said:

when i am fresh (not worn out by a workout), i do 100m in about 2:39.

Cam, you got a bit too defensive here; he was giving valid advice. Even a 2:30 100 translates to a
40 minute mile, which is rather on the slow side for the full length, you're doing that pace just
100m at a time. This suggests strongly a technique issue, and so doing intervals to improve speed
seems wrong to me as well.

Cam, if you haven't had any coaching on stroke technique, it is certainly worth the time and
possible cost to get some. Joining a Masters club (with a knowledgable coach) would be the best
option. I've been assuming that your 100 repeat times are where they are because you really are a
beginner as an athlete, but if you have a solid background in running, then we might expect that you
would improve in swimming more quickly than you have. But maybe not. There might be other
circumstances we don't know about. One test you can perform is to have a friend shoot some video of
your swimming. Most of what is important goes on under water, but if your arm recovery over the
water looks way different from what you've seen good swimmers do, then technique coaching is
required. If you can get some video of your stroke, have the camera person get some footage from the
end of the pool as you approach the wall. This will give you a view of a few arm pulls, at least the
first part of the pull. Many beginners have a problem here that they aren't aware of. There might be
a large asymmetry. One arm might pull out, and the other might cross way over the body line to the
other side. Basically, both hands should be pulling right down the center of the body until they
reach your waist. This means that your elbows will be bent quite a lot. Another common problem for
beginners is they push down with a straigth arm during the first stage of the pull. Instead, reach
over a barrel and begin pulling back.

Quoted message said:

Building up your continuous swimming ability (you said you're at 750 and rising) strikes me as
more productive for what you wish to do. That's all I did in preparation for Alcatraz (2400m).
Unless you're doing a spring tri (400m), I wouldn't bother with speed work until next year.

It's pace work, Jason, which is good for distance training.

martin

--
Martin Smith email: [email hidden] Vollsveien 9 tel. : +47 6783 1188
P.O. Box 482 mob. : +47 932 48 303 1327 Lysaker, Norway

OK, while I was never really dwelling on the speed issue very much... just looking for ideas on
how to increase my ability in a short swim leg of a beginner's triathlon.... i see where you are
coming from.

and though i just don't have the resources to get coaching, I COULD go back to my Total Immersion
book, and actually DO all of those drills to improve technique. i read the whole book a while ago,
immediately incorporated several concepts and techniques, but didn't get into the drills very much.
i just wanted to see some distance gains for a tri.

now that i am satisfied that i can swim close to, or even more than 1000m, i could possibly now do
what you did, and shift my emphasis on distance training to technique-oriented workouts. i'll see
about this.

i'm sure you are correct about how i could shave much time off my repeats with better form. good to
hear that you achieved so much by this method... it's encouraging to hear.

thanks for the thoughts, Matt.

Cam

In article said:

I was going to mention what Olivier has mentioned when I first read your message. However I
did not due to the possibility I would offend. However since someone else has already
cracked the egg here's
my .02$. I recently did a LT test. This test consisted of repeats of 100, each one progressively
faster. I also was wearing a heart rate monitor. Somewhat to my dismay, but I kinda expected
it, the difference between a fairly relaxed 130-135 HR and a rather hard 160-165 HR resulted
in a mere 8-10 sec increase per 100. This 8-10 sec translated to a mere 7-8% increase in
speed. If you're asking what this means to you. Well the way I see it is this. You want to get
faster in the pool. In order for you to drop you intervals by 8% you will need a near 30%
increase in conditioning. This should change your 3:30 to approximately 3:15, hardly a massive
change. So the question is whats left to make me faster, the answer technique. From reading
your post over the past months I started swimming a little under a year before you did. I
spent some time doing the get in the pool and swim thing and even started working on
increasing my distance. What happened was I was increasing my distance but getting very little
gains in speed and was still struggling every distance increase. I decided that there was no
possible way that swimming more was going to get me to were I wanted to be. I ended up
stopping all of my swimming and work excusively on my technique. I did most of this in a self
taught situtaion and took an occasional lesson to get proffesional input. After about six
months of this I started swimming again. To my delight I found that my 100 times dropped
nearly a minute and this without doing a single lap of actual "workout" swimming. If anything
my actual swim conditioning had decreased. Over the next year I swam with the local masters
groups and continued to work on technique and conditioning and my times still continue to drop
but not nearly what the initial "technique only" got
me. My point is at 3:30 a hundred working on intervals may get you gains but probably not nearly
the gains that technique work will get you. The way I see it, and particularly for the
triathletes, If I can swim 1/4 mi at the same speed as the guy next to me, but with less
effort I win. The time spent on technique training in the water is much much more fruitfull
than equivalent training for your running or biking on land.

~Matt

In article said:

Cam Wilson said:

was i asking for an opinion on my speed? nope. i'm just a beginner about to do a beginner's tri.
and i'm rather new to swimming too. i just want to get out there, do my best, and have fun.

BTW, it doesn't take me 3:30 to do 100m. please read the whole thread before making a comment
like that. you only caught the tail end of it.

Quoted message said:

when i am fresh (not worn out by a workout), i do 100m in about 2:39.

Cam, you got a bit too defensive here;

yeah, maybe. sorry if i got my hackles up. i'm just feeling that as a beginner in swimming and tri,
i don't need people telling me i'm slow. jeez, i KNOW i'm slow... compared with the other pool rats.
but on the other side of the coin, i know that i'm far ahead of the average person who just jumps
into pools and then does the old-fashioned breast-stroke.

i guess i feel like i'm getting advice to do stuff that is beyond my goals right now. believe me,
i've saving all of this info for future reference, but for now, i'm happy to just make modest gains.
and if looking more at technique will do that, then sure, i'll give that a go.

he was giving valid advice.

Quoted message said:

Even a 2:30 100 translates to a 40 minute mile, which is rather on the slow side for the full
length, you're doing that pace just 100m at a time. This suggests strongly a technique issue, and
so doing intervals to improve speed seems wrong to me as well.

Building up your continuous swimming ability (you said you're at 750 and rising) strikes me as
more productive for what you wish to do.

nail on the head. i suppose i just see so much emphasis on speed in the ng, but then a lot of you
are either serious swimmers or maybe serious triathletes, right? i'm just not in the same league.
just getting started.

ok, i've calmed down now 🙂 sorry to the fellow i wailed on... maybe i was having a bad
moment there.

Cam

Cam Wilson said:

Quoted message said:

Building up your continuous swimming ability (you said you're at 750 and rising) strikes me as
more productive for what you wish to do.

nail on the head. i suppose i just see so much emphasis on speed in the ng, but then a lot of you
are either serious swimmers or maybe serious triathletes, right? i'm just not in the same league.
just getting started.

Certainly this newsgroup is all about speed - most pool swimming events are much shorter, and much
more competitive than the OW triathlon legs. Even some of the tri nuts are doing more mileage in a
single session than I do in a week (or 3).

I rarely even get in a pool, so I can only guess on what I would do repeats at. Late in the past
summer I did a single 100 in 1:10 in a pool, but my tri pace is more like 1:50 or so for a 400, and
perhaps a tad over 2 for longer ones.

If you're racing in cold lakes where wetsuits are the rule, you might find it interesting to see how
much one improves your time. The buoyancy in the legs does a lot for streamlining your body, and the
boost is much bigger on the slower end of the spectrum.
--
Jason O'Rourke www.jor.com

In article <[email hidden]>,

Brian D said:

Breaking up the swim into varying distances with short rests (10-40secs depending on distance)
would be good for stamina, and make it more interesting. For the speed mentioned technique work
will be more important and if broken up suitably as above will improve stamina too.

If technique is in need of improvement, stamina work with poor technique and no correction WILL
only reinforce poor technique.

point taken. i'll get my friend who is a good swimmer to assess and comment on my technique. i'll
also see if there's a way to get a free assessment from a swim or tri coach here in town. i think
there are classes where they let newcomers check things out and get their swim form checked out by
the coach.

i suppose after i corrected my technique problems early on - which were causing shoulder pain - i
felt i was doing everything right. bit by bit, i've incorporated the TI concepts and have seen
increased speed and efficiency from the snap of the hips/roll, pressing the buoy, hand entry, pull
and recovery, the kick, and so on. i have been using pull buoys and hand paddles occasionally, and
they've helped, too.

thanks,

Cam

Cam Wilson said:

OK, while I was never really dwelling on the speed issue very much... just looking for ideas on
how to increase my ability in a short swim leg of a beginner's triathlon.... i see where you are
coming from.

and though i just don't have the resources to get coaching,

Obviously I'm not privy of your personal situation but, If you can afford the TI book you
probably could afford a lesson or two. I'm not speaking of having a coach by your side for
every swim, just one day or two over a period of six months or so. I did all of the TI
drills and when I felt I had done as much as I could without some "outside" intervention I
found a local TI coach and went for a weekend lesson. In my opinion it was worth it and it
actual cost less than the book and the video did.

Quoted message said:

I COULD go back to my Total Immersion book, and actually DO all of those drills to improve
technique. i read the whole book a while ago, immediately incorporated several concepts and
techniques, but didn't get into the drills very much. i just wanted to see some distance gains
for a tri.

now that i am satisfied that i can swim close to, or even more than 1000m, i could possibly now do
what you did, and shift my emphasis on distance training to technique-oriented workouts. i'll see
about this.

I didn't want to mention TI as it is almost always a controversial subject here. However for
beginners like us I think all of the general concepts are sound and will bring significant
gains. Once you have conquered the TI drills then you can argue wether or not it will make
you a world class swimmer. However if I'm understanding where your coming from your probably
like me and could care a less about a few fractions of a second here or there. I'm looking
to shave MULTIPLE seconds and minutes.

~Matt

Quoted message said:

i'm sure you are correct about how i could shave much time off my repeats with better form. good to
hear that you achieved so much by this method... it's encouraging to hear.

thanks for the thoughts, Matt.

Cam

In article said:

I was going to mention what Olivier has mentioned when I first read your message. However I
did not due to the possibility I would offend. However since someone else has already
cracked the egg here's
my .02$. I recently did a LT test. This test consisted of repeats of 100, each one progressively
faster. I also was wearing a heart rate monitor. Somewhat to my dismay, but I kinda expected
it, the difference between a fairly relaxed 130-135 HR and a rather hard 160-165 HR resulted
in a mere 8-10 sec increase per 100. This 8-10 sec translated to a mere 7-8% increase in
speed. If you're asking what this means to you. Well the way I see it is this. You want to
get faster in the pool. In order for you to drop you intervals by 8% you will need a near 30%
increase in conditioning. This should change your 3:30 to approximately 3:15, hardly a
massive change. So the question is whats left to make me faster, the answer technique. From
reading your post over the past months I started swimming a little under a year before you
did. I spent some time doing the get in the pool and swim thing and even started working on
increasing my distance. What happened was I was increasing my distance but getting very
little gains in speed and was still struggling every distance increase. I decided that there
was no possible way that swimming more was going to get me to were I wanted to be. I ended up
stopping all of my swimming and work excusively on my technique. I did most of this in a self
taught situtaion and took an occasional lesson to get proffesional input. After about six
months of this I started swimming again. To my delight I found that my 100 times dropped
nearly a minute and this without doing a single lap of actual "workout" swimming. If anything
my actual swim conditioning had decreased. Over the next year I swam with the local masters
groups and continued to work on technique and conditioning and my times still continue to
drop but not nearly what the initial "technique only" got
me. My point is at 3:30 a hundred working on intervals may get you gains but probably not nearly
the gains that technique work will get you. The way I see it, and particularly for the
triathletes, If I can swim 1/4 mi at the same speed as the guy next to me, but with less
effort I win. The time spent on technique training in the water is much much more fruitfull
than equivalent training for your running or biking on land.

~Matt

In article <[email hidden]>, MJuric wrote:

Obviously I'm not privy of your personal situation but, If you

Quoted message said:

can afford the TI book you probably could afford a lesson or two. I'm not speaking of having a
coach by your side for every swim, just one day or two over a period of six months or so. I did
all of the TI drills and when I felt I had done as much as I could without some "outside"
intervention I found a local TI coach and went for a weekend lesson. In my opinion it was worth it
and it actual cost less than the book and the video did.

yeah, something to consider. unfortunately, money expenditure of any kind is not good with my
situation right now. but i'll file this away until i can act on it.

I didn't want to mention TI as it is almost always a

Quoted message said:

controversial subject here. However for beginners like us I think all of the general concepts are
sound and will bring significant gains. Once you have conquered the TI drills then you can argue
wether or not it will make you a world class swimmer. However if I'm understanding where your
coming from your probably like me and could care a less about a few fractions of a second here or
there. I'm looking to shave MULTIPLE seconds and minutes.

~Matt

well, TI, in conjunction with some private lessons a while back, really got me OFF my feet and
into the water for the first time in my life. it all gave me a boost in confidence right when i
needed it. BTW, i also read a few books by coaches and swimmers (like Mark Spitz) to gave
alternative points of view. i took whatever worked for me from the different sources. i liked most
of the TI concepts.

you are right about my goals. your insight is right on the mark.

thanks again,

Cam