First Major RR - Need Advice

Well I'm no expert, but I did a few road races last year to "test the water", I'm just about to embark on loads of them for this year, and I think I share youre philosophy - namely that the power numbers have to stack up before racing can even figure. (A few instances of getting my head beaten in taught me that…)

If the climb was at the finish then I'd say yeah just drill it and see what happens, but the problem is the run in - if there are enough chasers then it's going to require maybe on average 20% more power than the guys taking turns at the front, just to stay away. If I were interested in that kind of lone breakway I'd ride the front for a bit when it’s pulling pretty hard, take a look down at the power meter, and if the power was below my FT then I'd consider it.

But sadly amateur racing, especially in the lower cats, is I think marked by very defensive tactics - chase anything immediately it goes away (why they don’t just let the strong guys weaken themselves up in the wind for a while I'll never know), keep it all together, ease right off before the finish, then have a great big humdinger of a dash for the line.

Good luck anyway!

It would be interesting to know what kind of power numbers you register in the race - esp the stuff under 5 min - as I consistently surpirsed myself last year in terms of the void between what I "thought" were my numbers for 1-5 mins based on training efforts, and what I could deliver when the chips were down in a road race.

robkit said:

If the climb was at the finish then I'd say yeah just drill it and see what happens, but the problem is the run in - if there are enough chasers then it's going to require maybe on average 20% more power than the guys taking turns at the front, just to stay away. If I were interested in that kind of lone breakway I'd ride the front for a bit when it’s pulling pretty hard, take a look down at the power meter, and if the power was below my FT then I'd consider it.

I agree. I rode the course and the long descent to the finish really plays into the hands of a chase group. The climb is long enough to hold off making a decision immediately, but due to the winding road and terrain it's going to be hard to figure out where everybody is. I'm thinking that if the opportunity presents itself I should try to space out the field on the climb. Assuming I can get to the top of the climb first (who knows, I may be chasing somebody), I think it's in my interest if the rest of the field gets to the top onesy-twosy rather than a bunch. The one plus is that the last push to the top is 1.5 miles straight with a clear sight line from the top. So, assuming I am in or close to the front, I'll have a good 12-minute window on the field (6 mins forward and 6 mins back) in that last push to the top.

robkit said:

Good luck anyway!

Thanks.

robkit said:

It would be interesting to know what kind of power numbers you register in the race - esp the stuff under 5 min - as I consistently surpirsed myself last year in terms of the void between what I "thought" were my numbers for 1-5 mins based on training efforts, and what I could deliver when the chips were down in a road race.

I'll post my workout file after the event. The key segment will be the second climb, because I expect to let others dictate the pace on the first climb -- I don't think that's the place to go hard. And the first descent isn't going to be about power. It's going to be about survival -- the pavement is fairly rough in some places and there are some tight turns.

RapDaddyo said:

II'm thinking that if the opportunity presents itself I should try to space out the field on the climb. Assuming I can get to the top of the climb first (who knows, I may be chasing somebody), I think it's in my interest if the rest of the field gets to the top onesy-twosy rather than a bunch.

That's pretty much my thought. Rather than attacking hard and pushing the entire climb solo, it'd be better to gradually up the intensity on the climb in order to drop riders one at a time along the way. Once you've whittled them down to one or two on your wheel, then you may as well push as hard as you can the rest of the way to the top.

Having the chasers in disarray as they clear the top should give you a little more breathing room on the run-in.

frenchyge said:

That's pretty much my thought. Rather than attacking hard and pushing the entire climb solo, it'd be better to gradually up the intensity on the climb in order to drop riders one at a time along the way. Once you've whittled them down to one or two on your wheel, then you may as well push as hard as you can the rest of the way to the top.

Having the chasers in disarray as they clear the top should give you a little more breathing room on the run-in.

And, in fact, if I gradually increase the pace on the climb, folks will hang on longer to try to maintain contact and I can manage their IF better than if I take off. In fact, that's pretty much my view of the tradeoff of being in front. Yes, you may be drafting on me, but I'm in control of your IF.

RapDaddyo said:

I've decided to enter a major RR, to see where I am fitness-wise. The course is an interesting out/back with lots of climbing, 10 miles at +3%, followed by 8.7 miles at -6%, then back. I can enter 55+ or Cat4. They have grouped Cat4 & 5 for this race. My FT is 325w and I think I can do the 8.7 mile climb after the turnaround between 325-350w. I think that's the only place it makes sense to attack. The problem is that 10 miles gives a chase group a long way to close a gap. Should I hammer the climb if I can open a gap?

Other factors to consider:

1. Strength of the field.

2. How well do you sprint?

3. Are you on a team, or is there anyone else that you plan to team up with?

4. Weather conditions.

If I had to guess, I'd say that because an 18-mile course is pretty short, you should expect the pace to be very fast the entire race with virtually no lulls. You're not likely to be able to power away from the entire field unless you have a huge motor. Might be better to bide your time, stay rested, figure out who the fast guys are and try to hold their wheels when they make a break for it.

Bob

Bobby Lex said:

If I had to guess, I'd say that because an 18-mile course is pretty short, you should expect the pace to be very fast the entire race with virtually no lulls. You're not likely to be able to power away from the entire field unless you have a huge motor. Might be better to bide your time, stay rested, figure out who the fast guys are and try to hold their wheels when they make a break for it.

I guess I didn't clearly describe the course. It's an out/back, 18 miles each way. The return leg (8.7 mile climb followed by a 10 mile descent to the finish) seems to be where the race will be won or lost. I will have a pretty good idea of the strength of the other riders from the 10 mile initial climb. I am riding solo but I don't think riding with a team will be of much help on the 8.7 mile climb other than the psychological value of riding with a buddy. If you don't have the power, it will be revealed if the climb pace is fast enough. As to my sprint, it's too early in the season and I won't start working on it for a couple more months. So, I have what I have more as a function of my FT than any specific work. I'd sort of like to avoid a field sprint if I can. It's a downhill sprint on a narrow road for one thing, so it will be pretty fast.

You also mentioned that you have a choice of cat's - either 55+ or 4/5. It may be worth it to do a little research and find out who races 55+ in your area. The 30+ masters cat here in the NW seems to have a tendancy to fill up with a lot of ex-1's 2's. Masters races are often if not usually run faster than the 4/5's. My husband raced masters all last year (his first) and has decided that it may have been trial by fire - this year he is racing on a team and will be concentrating on cat 4 races which have a good possiblity of being slower! - but that said its probably less safe as there are many more inexperienced guys in the mix - especially in an early season race.
Also I agree with Robkit - in the low cats anyone who tries to get away gets chased is the usual m.o. - to their defense even at 32 miles its a short race to let a breakaway go.

Good Luck - and be careful!

It may be simplistic, but in my opinion it's never a good idea to just go to the front, up the pace, and pull the pack. If you do that, every other rider gets the benefit of the draft from you, and there's no possibility of disorganization. On the other hand, if you make a small jump to open up a gap, at least one other rider is working as hard as you, and there's the possibility that due to disorganization in the group, the pack let's the gap grow for a while meaning more energy needs to be expended later to close the bigger gap. It may look like you're just dangling off the front, but in fact you're forcing at least one other rider to match your pace. Worst case is the group does chase you down quickly and then you maintain the tempo you would have ridden in the first place without the jump. Especially for this course, the slight anaerobic effort used to open a gap can be recovered later during the run in to the finish (I can assume you're not at threshold drafting in the pack because if you are, you're at such a great disadvantage relative to riders who can pull at the front at threshold that there isn't much chance you'll factor at the finish).

asgelle said:

It may be simplistic, but in my opinion it's never a good idea to just go to the front, up the pace, and pull the pack. If you do that, every other rider gets the benefit of the draft from you, and there's no possibility of disorganization. On the other hand, if you make a small jump to open up a gap, at least one other rider is working as hard as you, and there's the possibility that due to disorganization in the group, the pack let's the gap grow for a while meaning more energy needs to be expended later to close the bigger gap. It may look like you're just dangling off the front, but in fact you're forcing at least one other rider to match your pace. Worst case is the group does chase you down quickly and then you maintain the tempo you would have ridden in the first place without the jump. Especially for this course, the slight anaerobic effort used to open a gap can be recovered later during the run in to the finish (I can assume you're not at threshold drafting in the pack because if you are, you're at such a great disadvantage relative to riders who can pull at the front at threshold that there isn't much chance you'll factor at the finish).

On a more flat course, I would agree with you about not going to the front and giving everybody else a free ride. But, the 8.7 miles at 6% avg grade (with some steeper sections) will be pure power -- not much physiological advantage to drafting. So, the way I assess it, that section is where I will have lots of choices assuming I have as much or more power than the rest of the field. I know there are some horses out here, but if someone can make that climb at >350w, I'll just salute and wish him luck at nationals. Anyway, if I don't have the power to be at or near the front on that climb, a strategy is pointless -- I'll just be along for the ride. So, if I don't have the power, it doesn't matter. If I do have the power, how do I use it?

Eden said:

You also mentioned that you have a choice of cat's - either 55+ or 4/5. It may be worth it to do a little research and find out who races 55+ in your area. The 30+ masters cat here in the NW seems to have a tendancy to fill up with a lot of ex-1's 2's. Masters races are often if not usually run faster than the 4/5's. My husband raced masters all last year (his first) and has decided that it may have been trial by fire - this year he is racing on a team and will be concentrating on cat 4 races which have a good possiblity of being slower! - but that said its probably less safe as there are many more inexperienced guys in the mix - especially in an early season race.
Also I agree with Robkit - in the low cats anyone who tries to get away gets chased is the usual m.o. - to their defense even at 32 miles its a short race to let a breakaway go.

Good Luck - and be careful!

I do have a choice, but I want the hardest race. I've even thought about dropping down and racing 35+ for the reason you cited. But, I am worried about the first descent. The road is steep, winding, narrow and rough in spots. I'm not sure I want to be with inexperienced riders on that section and it comes too soon to have the field spread out.

RapDaddyo said:

On a more flat course, I would agree with you about not going to the front and giving everybody else a free ride. But, the 8.7 miles at 6% avg grade (with some steeper sections) will be pure power -- not much physiological advantage to drafting.

I agree there isn't much advantage to drafting, but my point of view is that I don't see what objectives are met going your own pace at the head of the field (as some have suggested) that aren't better served going that same pace 10 meters off the front. I'm not suggesting where or for how long to set the pace (or whether to do it at all). I'm only mentioning that if you decide to set pace, doing it with a slight gap has some advantages over just pulling the field.

asgelle said:

I agree there isn't much advantage to drafting, but my point of view is that I don't see what objectives are met going your own pace at the head of the field (as some have suggested) that aren't better served going that same pace 10 meters off the front. I'm not suggesting where or for how long to set the pace (or whether to do it at all). I'm only mentioning that if you decide to set pace, doing it with a slight gap has some advantages over just pulling the field.

Yes, I see your point. The way I look at it, my greatest strategic options are on the climb after the turnaround. I can go flat out from the get-go and try to make the climb at my estimated max power for the duration (30-45 mins), since I will be pretty rested from the descent (~15 mins). I can start off at the group's pace and continuously up the pace to try and space out the field. Or, I can just ride with the leaders until the last 10 minutes or so of the climb and try to open the largest possible gap for the run-in to the finish. Or, worst case, I can just stay with the leaders for the entire climb and descent to the finish and wait for the sprint. That's the least attractive option, but may be my only option if they are equally strong or stronger.

Bobby Lex said:

Might be better to bide your time, stay rested, figure out who the fast guys are and try to hold their wheels when they make a break for it.

That seems to be the intented strategy for 95% of the field. However, that raises the questions "How does anyone ever figure out who the fast guys are?" and "When do the supposed fast guys ever make a break for it?"

IMO, that's why the low Cat races end up immediately chasing down *everything* (because they're holding the wheel when someone makes a break for it) and why the race typically comes to a slow roll just before the final jump.

What's the strategy for those couple fast guys, who are supposed to make the break that the other 95% of the field is waiting for?

RapDaddyo said:

I can go flat out from the get-go and try to make the climb at my estimated max power for the duration (30-45 mins), since I will be pretty rested from the descent (~15 mins). I can start off at the group's pace and continuously up the pace to try and space out the field. Or, I can just ride with the leaders until the last 10 minutes or so of the climb and try to open the largest possible gap for the run-in to the finish. Or, worst case, I can just stay with the leaders for the entire climb and descent to the finish and wait for the sprint.

In reverse order:
- Waiting for the sprint is no real strategy at all, since your FT power is believed to be your greatest advantage - don't do this unless someone else is pushing the climbing pace harder than you would have.
- Climbing with the leaders until 10min to go effectively shortens the 30-45min climb to 10 minutes. Any gap you get will be smaller than if you'd pushed at your own pace, and increases the risk you get caught on the run-in.

The last two are the only real options I see, and the issue is whether to ride hard off the front, or dangle your wheel as bait to get the other guys to chase. Personally, I'd choose the latter because I think the former increases the chance that they'll let you go off the front, and then chase hard as an organized group for 10 miles to the finish.

frenchyge said:

In reverse order:
- Waiting for the sprint is no real strategy at all, since your FT power is believed to be your greatest advantage - don't do this unless someone else is pushing the climbing pace harder than you would have.
- Climbing with the leaders until 10min to go effectively shortens the 30-45min climb to 10 minutes. Any gap you get will be smaller than if you'd pushed at your own pace, and increases the risk you get caught on the run-in.

The last two are the only real options I see, and the issue is whether to ride hard off the front, or dangle your wheel as bait to get the other guys to chase. Personally, I'd choose the latter because I think the former increases the chance that they'll let you go off the front, and then chase hard as an organized group for 10 miles to the finish.

I agree. Sounds like a plan. And, if John Howard or Wayne Stetina show up, I'll hope they enter Pro 1/2. If somebody else shows up with >325 horses under the hood, I'll try to rally some guys to try and chase him down after the cliimb.

once the climb is over i still think that, say there are 10 guys with 325watts, in an organised chase situation they can easily take turns drilling the front at 400 watts or over, hence the need to have that or more just to stay away on a solo basis.

attrition is probably everything - get away with enough support to stay away, then split it again, then split it again, etc until hopefully it's just you!

robkit said:

once the climb is over i still think that, say there are 10 guys with 325watts, in an organised chase situation they can easily take turns drilling the front at 400 watts or over, hence the need to have that or more just to stay away on a solo basis.

attrition is probably everything - get away with enough support to stay away, then split it again, then split it again, etc until hopefully it's just you!

I agree. I think the gradual attrition strategy is the way to go. I might get my wheels handed to me on a platter, but it's fun to go in with a plan. I definitely plan to be aggressive on the climb.

robkit said:

once the climb is over i still think that, say there are 10 guys with 325watts, in an organised chase situation they can easily take turns drilling the front at 400 watts or over, hence the need to have that or more just to stay away on a solo basis.

attrition is probably everything - get away with enough support to stay away, then split it again, then split it again, etc until hopefully it's just you!

I agree. I think the gradual attrition strategy is the way to go. I might get my wheels handed to me on a platter, but it's fun to go in with a plan. I definitely plan to be aggressive on the climb.

robkit said:

once the climb is over i still think that, say there are 10 guys with 325watts, in an organised chase situation they can easily take turns drilling the front at 400 watts or over, hence the need to have that or more just to stay away on a solo basis.

Yep, if that's the case, then you're right. The whole plan hinges on the RDO's belief that he will be one of the strongest, if not the strongest, riders in the field. This strategy doesn't play at all for a rider who's closer to the pack average. If RDO gets to the top and there are still 10 guys on his wheel then he'll have to go to plan B.