Fine line between over/undertraining?

<< Gains? Dont expect to make noticable gains and do "moderately
intense
cardio 2-4 times/week." >>

So I should stop running?

<< If you really work your muscles, three days to a week is needed to
recover, and working a different goup of muscles is not recovering. >>

What kind of split do you do? The only way I can see to do that is to
work one muscle part every 8-9 days, since you'll have to lift one day,
rest three, lift one, rest three. UNLESS, on one lifting day, you lift
the entire body really intensely. That's why I'm curious to see your
split.

Thanks for the advice.

Quoted message said:

5'10", 23 M, 190 (reasonably lean, but have gained some 'winter

mass'😉.

Quoted message said:

My current routine:

Day 1- Chest 1, Chest 2, Shoulder, Tricep, Abs.
Day 2- Lat 1, Lat 2, Lower back , Trap , Abs.
Day 3- Rest
Day 4- Rest
Day 5- Hamstring, Quad, Calf, Bicep, Abs.
Day 6- Rest

I throw in moderatly intense cardio (a 30 minute run at a pretty good
pace) randomly 3 or 4 times a week. Every exercise is 3 sets of

8-10.

Quoted message said:

Question:

- It seems sometimes when doing Chest or Biceps for example, the

wrong

Quoted message said:

muscles get exhausted first. I.e. My triceps will kind of give way

when

Quoted message said:

I feel like I could've put up 3 or 4 more reps. Or my forearms won't
let me work as intense on my Biceps as I'd like. If that is not
normal, what can be done to prevent that?

- Is the cardio too much? Sometimes, it is convenient to do it right
after or before the weights, is it especially harmful or beneficial

to

Quoted message said:

do it on either?

- Am I getting enough rest? If I add a chest and Lat exercises, or

move

Quoted message said:

up to 4 sets, how will it affect my gains?

Whatever specific advice you get in here, remember that what's optimal
for you could vary from what's optimal for the average person or even
for you for any given time period in your life, given, say, a better
diet in the longer-term, less stress, better sleep, etc. The best way
to figure out how you best achieve your goals is to experiment with
your workout variables yourself, while keeping in mind what generally
is considered to be overtraining/undertraining. That is, be
intelligent with your experimentation -- don't think that you'd
necessarily be able to do way more than the average person, e.g.,
working out extremely hard every day or something crazy like that.

If you could cut out the cardio that would be best to make gains. The
thing is I dont practice what I preach. And because of that my gains
are minimal. I just need the mental state high intensity anerobic
exercise gives me.

Split do I do? Well, thats the trick question, because I dont follow
any routine. I work myself until Im overtrained then deal with low
energy levels/sex drive/decreased mental alertness/apathy for 1-2weeks
in recovery. Thats just how I do things. My gainsd are minimal because
of this. I cant help it. I dont have the will power to not
overtrain/avoid cardio workouts. The make up of my psychology is such
that I am hyperactive and when Im not overtrained/passed out on the
couch I am on my way to being. I have to constantly move because I am a
physical person, like a high energy dog that will chew up everything in
the house if not walked constantly.

My suggestion is if you have will power then make use of it. If you
have the attention span to go "today is a recovery day, Im going to sit
and watch tv, surf the net, read a book, etc" then great. You will make
gains. Its the rest that builds muscle, the exercise tears it down. If
you get too much rest, your not going to lose muscle in any signifigant
noticable amount. If you are not tearing the muscles down enough, you
wont make noticable gains. SO overestimating your recoveries will be
more productive than underestimating your recoveries and gaining a
pound every three months like me.

peace

Quoted message said:

If you could cut out the cardio that would be best to make gains. The
thing is I dont practice what I preach. And because of that my gains
are minimal. I just need the mental state high intensity anerobic
exercise gives me.

Split do I do? Well, thats the trick question, because I dont follow
any routine. I work myself until Im overtrained then deal with low
energy levels/sex drive/decreased mental alertness/apathy for 1-2weeks
in recovery. Thats just how I do things. My gainsd are minimal because
of this. I cant help it. I dont have the will power to not
overtrain/avoid cardio workouts. The make up of my psychology is such
that I am hyperactive and when Im not overtrained/passed out on the
couch I am on my way to being. I have to constantly move because I am
a physical person, like a high energy dog that will chew up
everything in the house if not walked constantly.

My suggestion is if you have will power then make use of it. If you
have the attention span to go "today is a recovery day, Im going to
sit and watch tv, surf the net, read a book, etc" then great. You
will make gains. Its the rest that builds muscle, the exercise tears
it down. If you get too much rest, your not going to lose muscle in
any signifigant noticable amount. If you are not tearing the muscles
down enough, you wont make noticable gains. SO overestimating your
recoveries will be more productive than underestimating your
recoveries and gaining a pound every three months like me.

peace

In other words, you don't know what you're talking about.
--
-Larry

"Larry Hodges" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

If you could cut out the cardio that would be best to make gains. The
thing is I dont practice what I preach. And because of that my gains
are minimal. I just need the mental state high intensity anerobic
exercise gives me.

Split do I do? Well, thats the trick question, because I dont follow
any routine. I work myself until Im overtrained then deal with low
energy levels/sex drive/decreased mental alertness/apathy for 1-2weeks
in recovery. Thats just how I do things. My gainsd are minimal because
of this. I cant help it. I dont have the will power to not
overtrain/avoid cardio workouts. The make up of my psychology is such
that I am hyperactive and when Im not overtrained/passed out on the
couch I am on my way to being. I have to constantly move because I am
a physical person, like a high energy dog that will chew up
everything in the house if not walked constantly.

My suggestion is if you have will power then make use of it. If you
have the attention span to go "today is a recovery day, Im going to
sit and watch tv, surf the net, read a book, etc" then great. You
will make gains. Its the rest that builds muscle, the exercise tears
it down. If you get too much rest, your not going to lose muscle in
any signifigant noticable amount. If you are not tearing the muscles
down enough, you wont make noticable gains. SO overestimating your
recoveries will be more productive than underestimating your
recoveries and gaining a pound every three months like me.

peace

In other words, you don't know what you're talking about.
--
-Larry

LOL!!

Quoted message said:

5'10", 23 M, 190 (reasonably lean, but have gained some 'winter
mass'😉.

My current routine:

Day 1- Chest 1, Chest 2, Shoulder, Tricep, Abs.
Day 2- Lat 1, Lat 2, Lower back , Trap , Abs.
Day 3- Rest
Day 4- Rest
Day 5- Hamstring, Quad, Calf, Bicep, Abs.
Day 6- Rest

I throw in moderatly intense cardio (a 30 minute run at a pretty good
pace) randomly 3 or 4 times a week. Every exercise is 3 sets of 8-10.

Question:

- It seems sometimes when doing Chest or Biceps for example, the wrong
muscles get exhausted first. I.e. My triceps will kind of give way
when I feel like I could've put up 3 or 4 more reps. Or my forearms
won't let me work as intense on my Biceps as I'd like. If that is not
normal, what can be done to prevent that?

- Is the cardio too much? Sometimes, it is convenient to do it right
after or before the weights, is it especially harmful or beneficial to
do it on either?

- Am I getting enough rest? If I add a chest and Lat exercises, or
move up to 4 sets, how will it affect my gains?

First of all, completely dismiss everything universaltile has told you. If
you did nothing else but that, you'd be ahead.

I'm doing much the same split as you. Push, pull and legs. I also do
cardio maybe 3 times per week after weights for 25 - 30 minutes. To address
your cardio before/after question...after weights is ideal. If you do
cardio first, you'll sap your body of strength for your weights. And since
growth is what you're after, that's a bad thing.

Cardio is good for you. And CV health is a different topic than
hypertrophy. However, you can accomplish both if you pay attention to diet.
IOW, cardio, from a weight control perspective, is simply a tool to burn
calories. Let's say you burn 400 calories on the treadmill. Add in the
10%-15% post workout calorie burn. So, you've burned 460. If you simply
ate 460 less calories for that day, you've accomplished basically the same
thing. So, about hypertrophy. You need to be consuming at or above your
caloric requirements to build muscle mass. And of course, consume enough
protein. If you're consuming under your required calories, you will lose
weight...some of it fat and some of it LBM. To sum up, if you want to grow
and do cardio, make sure you're eating enough to make up for the cardio.

Regarding rest...

I'm 48 and train six days per week. If you're new to lifting, that would be
too much. How much rest is needed has been discussed here at length. The
basic consensus is 1 - 2 days per muscle group with 5+ days being too much
rest to make gains. There have even been some fairly new studies that
purport that a 1 day rest is sufficient. Lyle posted a link to one some
months back if memory serves. You might do a search in this NG and see what
you find. Also, sleep is important. I need 8-9 hrs per night. 6-7 and I
have to cut back on training.

13 to 20 sets per workout is pretty typical for most guys, not counting
warm-up sets. I typically do 3 - 4 work sets per exercise. Sometimes 2 if
I'm in a hurry or a bit tired. I listen to my body, and if I'm tired, I
allow myself light workouts. I may have an entire week where I feel tired.
So...I just take it easy, lift light, drop my sets and basically maintain.
Maybe adjust my nutrition, maybe not. Everybody goes through cycles. Just
allow yourself slow times and it will still be fun. And...that's the key to
staying with it.
--
-Larry