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Finally got this question answered....

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Mountain Bikes
Published
20 June 2006
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small change
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  1. I've been wondering for YEARS about this...

    Looking at maps of central Idaho, Frank Church River of No Return area...
    how exactly does a Wild and Scenic River designation interface with a
    wilderness area? Reason being, if you look at the maps, or just run the
    river, there's an incredible trail within the Wild and Scenic designation
    of the Middle Fork Salmon.

    We just got off a 6 day trip on that river, and I finally got to ask the
    ranger about bikes on that trail. The bummer is that Wild and Scenic is in
    addition to the Wilderness designation, not a separate designation which is
    what I was hoping for. Oh well, so much for that mountain - mountain bike
    trip. I can't complain about getting to raft it, that's for sure.

    penny

  2. On Tue, 20 Jun 2006 13:35:55 -0700, small change wrote
    (in article <[email hidden]>😉:

    Quoted message said:

    I've been wondering for YEARS about this...

    Looking at maps of central Idaho, Frank Church River of No Return area...
    how exactly does a Wild and Scenic River designation interface with a
    wilderness area? Reason being, if you look at the maps, or just run the
    river, there's an incredible trail within the Wild and Scenic designation
    of the Middle Fork Salmon.

    We just got off a 6 day trip on that river, and I finally got to ask the
    ranger about bikes on that trail. The bummer is that Wild and Scenic is in
    addition to the Wilderness designation, not a separate designation which is
    what I was hoping for. Oh well, so much for that mountain - mountain bike
    trip. I can't complain about getting to raft it, that's for sure.

    penny

    As a long time rafter/yaker I've always thought it hypocritical that boating
    is allowed in wilderness areas but bicycling is not. Idaho has some primo
    wilderness boating.

    Pauly

  3. "pauly" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    On Tue, 20 Jun 2006 13:35:55 -0700, small change wrote
    (in article <[email hidden]>😉:

    Quoted message said:

    I've been wondering for YEARS about this...

    Looking at maps of central Idaho, Frank Church River of No Return area...
    how exactly does a Wild and Scenic River designation interface with a
    wilderness area? Reason being, if you look at the maps, or just run the
    river, there's an incredible trail within the Wild and Scenic designation
    of the Middle Fork Salmon.

    We just got off a 6 day trip on that river, and I finally got to ask the
    ranger about bikes on that trail. The bummer is that Wild and Scenic is
    in
    addition to the Wilderness designation, not a separate designation which
    is
    what I was hoping for. Oh well, so much for that mountain - mountain bike
    trip. I can't complain about getting to raft it, that's for sure.

    penny

    As a long time rafter/yaker I've always thought it hypocritical that
    boating
    is allowed in wilderness areas but bicycling is not. Idaho has some primo
    wilderness boating.

    and the horse packers... why is it that boaters have to carry a groover and
    a firepan, but horsepackers carry neither, and can build bonfires right on
    the beach? One of the reasons it's such a quasi pristine place is that there
    aren't firerings and tp roses everywhere.

    Back to the trail. It's an amazing piece of work. Now that I am involved in
    local trail work, I see trails in a totally different way now. Some of the
    stone work ( crib walls etc) are just amazing.

  4. On Tue, 20 Jun 2006 15:10:37 -0700, small change wrote
    (in article <[email hidden]>😉:

    Quoted message said:


    "pauly" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    On Tue, 20 Jun 2006 13:35:55 -0700, small change wrote
    (in article <[email hidden]>😉:

    Quoted message said:

    Back to the trail. It's an amazing piece of work. Now that I am involved in
    local trail work, I see trails in a totally different way now. Some of the
    stone work ( crib walls etc) are just amazing.

    I was hiking out of Yosemite Valley a couple of years ago and came across a
    trail crew rebuilding some of the granite trails. I'm in construction and no
    stranger to hard physical labor but I couldn't help but be impressed by these
    folks working at high altitude.

    Pauly

  5. small change said:

    I've been wondering for YEARS about this...

    Looking at maps of central Idaho, Frank Church River of No Return area...
    how exactly does a Wild and Scenic River designation interface with a
    wilderness area? Reason being, if you look at the maps, or just run the
    river, there's an incredible trail within the Wild and Scenic designation
    of the Middle Fork Salmon.

    We just got off a 6 day trip on that river, and I finally got to ask the
    ranger about bikes on that trail. The bummer is that Wild and Scenic is in
    addition to the Wilderness designation, not a separate designation which is
    what I was hoping for. Oh well, so much for that mountain - mountain bike
    trip. I can't complain about getting to raft it, that's for sure.

    Can't WALK?

    Quoted message said:

    penny


    ===
    I am working on creating wildlife habitat that is off-limits to
    humans ("pure habitat"😉. Want to help? (I spent the previous 8
    years fighting auto dependence and road construction.)

    http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande

  6. On Tue, 20 Jun 2006 21:26:11 GMT, pauly <[email hidden]>

    Quoted message said:

    On Tue, 20 Jun 2006 13:35:55 -0700, small change wrote
    (in article <[email hidden]>😉:

    Quoted message said:

    I've been wondering for YEARS about this...

    Looking at maps of central Idaho, Frank Church River of No Return area...
    how exactly does a Wild and Scenic River designation interface with a
    wilderness area? Reason being, if you look at the maps, or just run the
    river, there's an incredible trail within the Wild and Scenic designation
    of the Middle Fork Salmon.

    We just got off a 6 day trip on that river, and I finally got to ask the
    ranger about bikes on that trail. The bummer is that Wild and Scenic is in
    addition to the Wilderness designation, not a separate designation which is
    what I was hoping for. Oh well, so much for that mountain - mountain bike
    trip. I can't complain about getting to raft it, that's for sure.

    penny

    As a long time rafter/yaker I've always thought it hypocritical that boating
    is allowed in wilderness areas but bicycling is not. Idaho has some primo
    wilderness boating.

    I quite agree. ALL vehicles should be banned.

    Quoted message said:

    Pauly


    ===
    I am working on creating wildlife habitat that is off-limits to
    humans ("pure habitat"😉. Want to help? (I spent the previous 8
    years fighting auto dependence and road construction.)

    http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande

  7. "Mike Vandeman" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:
    small change said:
    Quoted message said:

    >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

    We just got off a 6 day trip on that river, and I finally got to ask the
    ranger about bikes on that trail. The bummer is that Wild and Scenic is in
    addition to the Wilderness designation, not a separate designation which is
    what I was hoping for. Oh well, so much for that mountain - mountain bike
    trip. I can't complain about getting to raft it, that's for sure.

    Can't WALK?

    Didn't you know that rafting creates micro currents that keep teeny weeny river creatures
    from crossing the river and also those little whirlpools in the wake drown millions of
    of fish fry and some get stuck and can't swim away and that just the sight of the yellow raft
    upsets the frogs and newts and they stop breeding. Graduate students at Crystal Emanations
    University have observed snakes and salamanders collapsing in shock at the raucus sound of
    human laughter and speech as the rafts drift by.
    But of course they don't mind horse hooves muddying the water and the mounds of horsesh*t
    at the river's edge.

  8. JP said:

    "Mike Vandeman" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:
    small change said:

    >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

    We just got off a 6 day trip on that river, and I finally got to ask the
    ranger about bikes on that trail. The bummer is that Wild and Scenic is in
    addition to the Wilderness designation, not a separate designation which is
    what I was hoping for. Oh well, so much for that mountain - mountain bike
    trip. I can't complain about getting to raft it, that's for sure.

    Can't WALK?

    Didn't you know that rafting creates micro currents that keep teeny weeny river creatures
    from crossing the river and also those little whirlpools in the wake drown millions of
    of fish fry and some get stuck and can't swim away and that just the sight of the yellow raft
    upsets the frogs and newts and they stop breeding. Graduate students at Crystal Emanations
    University have observed snakes and salamanders collapsing in shock at the raucus sound of
    human laughter and speech as the rafts drift by.
    But of course they don't mind horse hooves muddying the water and the mounds of horsesh*t
    at the river's edge.

    August 25, 1996
    Canyonlands National Park
    Attn: Dave Wood
    2282 S. West Resource Blvd.
    Moab, UT 84532

    Re: Your River Management Plan

    Gentlepersons:

    A park is nothing, without wildlife (wildlife = all nonhuman,
    non-domesticated species, plants as well as animals). Without
    wildlife, a park is nothing but a pile of rocks, which can't hold our
    attention for more than a few minutes. By far the most interesting
    part of any park is its wildlife, followed by prehistoric wildlife,
    prehistoric humans, early humans, native cultures and peoples, and
    early remnants of our own culture.

    And this is the order in which priority should be given. This
    is partly due to the relative importance of these various elements in
    a park (i.e., what makes a park a park, as opposed to a city), but it
    can also be justified on the basis of what is most vulverable: plants
    can't protect themselves from animals, animals from native peoples,
    native cultures from the dominant culture, etc. In other words, if we
    are going to continue to have parks that are enjoyable to visit, and
    that offer a respite from the pressures and relative sterility of the
    city, we are going to have to give much more priority to wildlife.

    In recent years, the trend in our parks has, unfortunately,
    been in the opposite direction. Park managers have given in to
    pressure from various interest groups, so that lately, wildlife are
    given only token attention. For example, the last time I visited the
    Grand Canyon, three of the four ranger talks I heard were about recent
    American visitors to the Canyon. The one talk about wildlife was about
    all the fish that have gone extinct or are going extinct, due to Glen
    Canyon Dam and our mismanagement of the river.

    Wildlife need a place to live, just as we do. That means a
    place where they are not molested (from their point of view, of
    course, not ours!). But humans think we own every square inch of the
    Earth. We think we have a right to go anywhere we want. In 2 million
    years of human evolution, there has never been one square inch of the
    Earth that is off-limits to humans (from which we voluntarily exclude
    ourselves)! There have always been some places that were difficult to
    reach, and hence were de-facto off-limits to humans, but as technology
    has progressed, there are fewer and fewer of these areas. Various
    kinds of cars and trucks, motorcycles, boats, mountain bikes,
    sophisticated camping and climbing gear, helicopter rescues, water
    stashes, and even freeze-dried foods have all contributed to
    eliminating the last safe refuges of wildlife.

    In a desert area like Canyonlands National Park, water sources
    are one of the most important resources that need to be protected from
    human intrusion, so that they remain available for wildlife. This is
    why proper river management is so important.

    There are two issues that relate to the impact of river
    management on wildlife: spacial and temporal. In spacial terms,
    boating and rafting make the entire river system accessible to all
    humans during all daylight hours. No special skills (including even
    the ability to swim!) are required. This practically eliminates this
    most important of all resources for wildlife. Even if there still are
    places where wildlife have access to the river, any of them can
    potentially be reached by people, once they are allowed boat access to
    the entire river system.

    In temporal terms, nighttime has historically been available
    for wildlife to travel and feed unmolested by humans. Camping
    eliminates that "loophole"! People can potentially camp or explore
    (with the proper equipment, all of which is available) at night now,
    anywhere they want to.

    Written regulations are only partly effective in curbing human
    abuses (e.g. witness the "Sedona 5" brazenly mountain biking down the
    North Kaibab Trail all the way to the Colorado!). The only sensible,
    humane way to restrict human access to wildlife habitat within the
    Park is to close roads (eliminating easy motor vehicle access),
    especially those that allow people to launch boats into the river
    system. "Demotorizing" and "depaving" the park will go a long way
    toward reducing human impacts to a sustainable level. However, there
    still needs to be a prohibition against motor vehicles, boats, horses,
    mules, and other such travel aids in the Park. Bicycles (and, of
    course, wheelchairs), since they are quiet and nonpolluting, could be
    allowed in the Park but never off-road! (Replacing motor vehicles with
    bikes is an obvious improvement, but allowing bikes on trails and in
    habitat areas is an equally obvious step backwards!)

    Is this "fair"? Yes, because the same rules apply to everyone.
    There is no reason that humans should have access to every square inch
    of the Earth! In fact, there are very good reasons why we shouldn't.
    It would not significantly reduce enjoyment of the Park if people had
    access to the rivers at a few locations, rather than everywhere.

    The bottom line, for the purposes of your scoping process, is
    that you should include the following issues: protecting wildlife;
    protecting wildlife habitat from human access; setting aside a large
    proportion of the park for the exclusive use of wildlife; reducing
    human access (both spatially and temporally), particularly, depaving,
    removing roads and trails, removing airplane (including helicopter)
    overflights, and removing all motorized vehicles and nonnative species
    (including horses, mules, and pets).

    Sincerely,

    Michael J. Vandeman,
    Ph.D.

    P.S. For more information and explanation, see my web page, listed
    below.

    References:

    Ehrlich, Paul R. and Ehrlich, Anne H., Extinction: The Causes and
    Consequences of the Disappearances of Species. New York: Random House,
    1981.

    Engwicht, David, Reclaiming Our Cities and Towns: Better Living with
    Less Traffic. Philadelphia: New Society Publishers, 1993 (first
    published as Towards an Eco-City: Calming the Traffic, in 1992).

    Foreman, Dave, Confessions of an Eco-Warrior. New York: Harmony Books,
    1991.

    Grumbine, R. Edward, Ghost Bears. Washington, DC: Island Press, 1992.

    Knight, Richard L. and Kevin J. Gutzwiller, eds. Wildlife and
    Recreationists. Covelo, California: Island Press, c.1995.

    Life on the Edge. A Guide to California's Endangered Natural
    Resources: Wildlife. Santa Cruz, California: BioSystem Books, 1994.

    Myers, Norman, ed., Gaia: An Atlas of Planet Management, Garden City,
    NY: Anchor Books, 1984.

    Noss, Reed F., "The Ecological Effects of Roads", in "Killing Roads",
    Earth First!

    Noss, Reed F. and Allen Y. Cooperrider, Saving Nature's Legacy:
    Protecting and Restoring Biodiversity. Island Press, Covelo,
    California, 1994.

    Sachs, Aaron, "Eco-Justice: Linking Human Rights and the Environment".
    Worldwatch Institute, December, 1995.

    Stone, Christopoher D., Should Trees Have Standing? Toward Legal
    Rights for Natural Objects. Los Altos, California: William Kaufmann,
    Inc., 1973.

    Vandeman, Michael J.,
    http://www.imaja.com/change/environment/mvarticles/

    Ward, Peter Douglas, The End of Evolution: On Mass Extinctions and the
    Preservation of Biodiversity. New York: Bantam Books, 1994.

    Whitman, Walt, Leaves of Grass. New York: The New American Library,
    1958.

    "The Wildlands Project", Wild Earth. Richmond, Vermont: The Cenozoic
    Society, 1994.

    Wilson, Edward O., The Diversity of Life. Cambridge, Massachusetts:
    Harvard University Press, 1992.

    ===
    I am working on creating wildlife habitat that is off-limits to
    humans ("pure habitat"😉. Want to help? (I spent the previous 8
    years fighting auto dependence and road construction.)

    http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande

  9. Mike Vandeman wrote:
    <<dribble removed>>

    I bet your address went right to thier kook bin as well. Assuming they
    even bothered to read your dribble that is.

  10. Some kook said:

    On Wed, 21 Jun 2006 12:32:39 GMT, wrote:

    August 25, 1996

    only 10 years out of date. don't let that stop you though.

  11. Mike Vandeman said:

    <bollocks snipped>

    Go on Mike, post up their reply.

  12. "Mike Vandeman" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    On Wed, 21 Jun 2006 12:32:39 GMT, "JP" <[email hidden]> wrote:

    August 25, 1996
    Canyonlands National Park
    Attn: Dave Wood
    2282 S. West Resource Blvd.
    Moab, UT 84532

    Re: Your River Management Plan

    Gentlepersons:

    A park is nothing, without wildlife (wildlife = all nonhuman,
    non-domesticated species, plants as well as animals). Without
    wildlife, a park is nothing but a pile of rocks, which can't hold our
    attention for more than a few minutes. By far the most interesting
    part of any park is its wildlife, followed by prehistoric wildlife,
    prehistoric humans, early humans, native cultures and peoples, and
    early remnants of our own culture.


    Obviously - they listened!
    From the website:
    Most visits to Canyonlands involve hiking, biking, boating or four-wheel
    driving in the park's backcountry. Overnight trips are common. For day
    trips, the Island in the Sky is the most accessible district, offering
    expansive views from many overlooks along the paved scenic drive, as well as
    several short hiking trails.

  13. pauly said:

    On Tue, 20 Jun 2006 15:10:37 -0700, small change wrote
    (in article <[email hidden]>😉:

    Quoted message said:

    "pauly" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    On Tue, 20 Jun 2006 13:35:55 -0700, small change wrote
    (in article <[email hidden]>😉:

    Quoted message said:

    Back to the trail. It's an amazing piece of work. Now that I am involved in
    local trail work, I see trails in a totally different way now. Some of the
    stone work ( crib walls etc) are just amazing.

    I was hiking out of Yosemite Valley a couple of years ago and came across a
    trail crew rebuilding some of the granite trails. I'm in construction and no
    stranger to hard physical labor but I couldn't help but be impressed by these
    folks working at high altitude.

    Where in Yosemite Valley is high altitude?

    Shawn

  14. "Shawn" <sdotherecurry@bresnannextdotnet> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:
    pauly said:

    On Tue, 20 Jun 2006 15:10:37 -0700, small change wrote
    (in article <[email hidden]>😉:

    Quoted message said:

    "pauly" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    >On Tue, 20 Jun 2006 13:35:55 -0700, small change wrote
    >(in article <[email hidden]>😉:

    Quoted message said:

    Back to the trail. It's an amazing piece of work. Now that I am involved


    in

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    local trail work, I see trails in a totally different way now. Some of


    the

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    stone work ( crib walls etc) are just amazing.

    I was hiking out of Yosemite Valley a couple of years ago and came


    across a

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    trail crew rebuilding some of the granite trails. I'm in construction


    and no

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    stranger to hard physical labor but I couldn't help but be impressed by


    these

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    folks working at high altitude.

    Where in Yosemite Valley is high altitude?

    I was thinking about that, too. But he did say "out of". Depends on how
    far out of the Valley.

    Greg

  15. On Thu, 22 Jun 2006 15:57:32 -0700, Shawn wrote
    (in article <[email hidden]>😉:

    Quoted message said:
    pauly said:

    On Tue, 20 Jun 2006 15:10:37 -0700, small change wrote
    (in article <[email hidden]>😉:

    Quoted message said:

    "pauly" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    > On Tue, 20 Jun 2006 13:35:55 -0700, small change wrote
    > (in article <[email hidden]>😉:

    Quoted message said:


    Where in Yosemite Valley is high altitude?

    Shawn

    It was on the way up Half Dome from the valley somewhere between 4000' and
    8000'. Is that high altitude? It is for me. I guess I was reacting more to
    the labor and skill it takes to do that kind of stone work especially in
    such steep terrain. Talk about breaking rocks in the hot sun.

    Paul

  16. pauly said:

    On Thu, 22 Jun 2006 15:57:32 -0700, Shawn wrote
    (in article <[email hidden]>😉:

    Quoted message said:
    pauly said:

    On Tue, 20 Jun 2006 15:10:37 -0700, small change wrote
    (in article <[email hidden]>😉:

    >"pauly" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    >news:[email hidden]...
    >
    >
    >>On Tue, 20 Jun 2006 13:35:55 -0700, small change wrote
    >>(in article <[email hidden]>😉:

    Quoted message said:

    Where in Yosemite Valley is high altitude?

    Shawn

    It was on the way up Half Dome from the valley somewhere between 4000' and
    8000'. Is that high altitude? It is for me. I guess I was reacting more to
    the labor and skill it takes to do that kind of stone work especially in
    such steep terrain. Talk about breaking rocks in the hot sun.

    Yeah, sounds like hard work to me too. I live at 7200 feet, so a lot of
    Yosemite Valley, is that nice, thick, low altitude air to me. :-)

    Shawn

  17. On Thu, 22 Jun 2006 18:16:55 -0700, Shawn wrote
    (in article <[email hidden]>😉:

    Quoted message said:
    pauly said:

    On Thu, 22 Jun 2006 15:57:32 -0700, Shawn wrote
    (in article <[email hidden]>😉:

    Quoted message said:

    pauly wrote:

    > On Tue, 20 Jun 2006 15:10:37 -0700, small change wrote
    > (in article <[email hidden]>😉:
    >
    >
    >
    >> "pauly" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    >> news:[email hidden]...
    >>
    >>
    >>> On Tue, 20 Jun 2006 13:35:55 -0700, small change wrote
    >>> (in article <[email hidden]>😉:

    Quoted message said:

    Where in Yosemite Valley is high altitude?

    Shawn

    It was on the way up Half Dome from the valley somewhere between 4000' and
    8000'. Is that high altitude? It is for me. I guess I was reacting more
    to
    the labor and skill it takes to do that kind of stone work especially in
    such steep terrain. Talk about breaking rocks in the hot sun.

    Yeah, sounds like hard work to me too. I live at 7200 feet, so a lot of
    Yosemite Valley, is that nice, thick, low altitude air to me. :-)

    Shawn

    In that case I 'll have to look up to you.

    Paul -sea level

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