finally got hit by a cager today

(snip)
: They *are* out to kill me.
:
: --kyler

They're ALL out to kill ALL of us. Especially young rednecks in
pickup trucks. Those are always hunting ME down.

Be careful.
~Rob

Kyler, I don't know where you live, but I take it you are not in the US?

Regardless of the mistake you felt you made, I believe it holds true
anywhere, that a Bicyclist/Pedestrian ALWAYS has the right of way.

A good driver supposed to be aware of anything that might, or can
happen, and always use extra caution when encountering a situation like
this.

I find it very strange-odd that you did not know you were injured, and
bleeding at the time the injury occured, and not after the driver
merrily (And quickly I'm sure) drove off?

I'm sure you must've been in some state of shock, and also thanking your
lucky stars too, as I'm sure everyone would be.

Did you not at least get a license plate number, and make/model of
vehicle?

It's disturbing to hear of incidents like this, but I'd like to add
Kyler, that I'm glad it wasn't worse, and hope you recover/heal quickly
from this incident. Mark D.

Lyler Laird cried out in pain:

Quoted message said:

The bottom line, however, is that I made the mistake of
cutting the corner too tight, relying on the car to wait for me. If
I'd made my turn well away from the car I would have been in a much
better position to be seen and to escape the lunge.

I don't agree that this is the bottom line. This may be the top line,
but the bottom line is that she failed to yield the right of way to
another vehicle. Defensive riding/driving is a good way to prevent
accidents, but failure to be defensive does not excuse other's wrong
and/or illegal behavior.

Austin

Kyler Laird wrote in part:

Quoted message said:

I was riding to class and made a left turn (after signalling and
slowing for several pedestrians) onto a narrow two-way street. I was
turning just feet in front of a large SUV. Just as I was right in front
of it, it lunged at me. I could see clearly what was happening and I
realized that there was no way out of it. The bumper hit my left leg
squarely, knocking me and my bike to the ground. I rose quickly,
located my pannier, heard "Are you alright?" from the woman in the car
and thought "Hmmm...everything seems to be working..." My gloves even
absorbed my contact with the road and my wheels looked true.

I was upset enough that I didn't stop to vent on the unapologetic driver
for pulling into me but as I rode off I realized I wasn't quite alright.
Just below my left knee is a two-inch gash that opens wide to expose
more layers of me than I like to see. It's been about ten hours since
the collision and it's not getting any better so it looks like I'll be
heading in for stitches in the morning.
The bottom line, however, is that I made the mistake of
cutting the corner too tight, relying on the car to wait for me. If
I'd made my turn well away from the car I would have been in a much
better position to be seen and to escape the lunge.

It's unclear to me what exactly happened. Was that driver was heading
in the opposite direction you were? For example, was she eastbound
while you were westbound but turning southbound onto a cross street? In
that instance you were mostly at fault. Was she going in the same
direction as you? In other words would she have been westbound in the
above hypothetical? In that case, fault can't be determined without
knowing more details. Did you *slow* for those pedestrians or did you
*stop* for them? Were you in the leftmost lane and did she try to pull
around to pass you in the intersection? In that case, the majority of
the fault lies with her. Without knowing the answers to these and a
bunch more questions it is impossible to say who bears the most fault.
Lacking that information, any statements assigning fault to either you
or to the driver are based more on bias than any clear understanding of
the facts.

Wishing you a speedy recovery,
Bob Hunt

P.S.- I'm glad the bike seems relatively unscathed.

Hi Kyler:
Hope you heal soon. I've usually made a practice, when turning left,
of taking the turn wide, so as to leave turning room for the motorists
behind me. I'd say there's no general rule on the absolute right way to
make a left turn, judging by what happened to you. Ouch. My apologies
in advance if my mental model of the accident is incorrect.
One thing to keep in mind as the comments to your post pile up is
that posters (and come to think of it, even the lurkers) at wrecked
bikes missed tend to be in the top bracket as far as road manners,
skill and distance traveled go. Where I live (Pacific Beach
neighborhood of San Diego) the general rule is beach cruisers ridden on
sidewalks to/from bars. Oh, and grocery shopping, and the library.

Robert Leone [email hidden]
Kyler Laird wrote:
SNIP

Quoted message said:

The bottom line, however, is that I made the mistake of
cutting the corner too tight, relying on the car to wait for me. If
I'd made my turn well away from the car I would have been in a much
better position to be seen and to escape the lunge.

I got lucky. It could have been much worse. They *are* out to kill me.

--kyler

In article <[email hidden]>,

Mark D said:

Kyler, I don't know where you live, but I take it you are not in the US?

Regardless of the mistake you felt you made, I believe it holds true
anywhere, that a Bicyclist/Pedestrian ALWAYS has the right of way.

I don't know where you live, but if a bicycle always has right of way,
I'm quite sure it's not anywhere in North America.

A bicycle has right of way in EXACTLY THE SAME CASES that a car would
have right of way, just like any other vehicle on the road.

A pedestrian who's legally started crossing the road has right of way
until they finish crossing, but there are still restrictions on when
they're allowed to start.

dave

--
Dave Vandervies [email hidden]

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

it's like arguing about the number of angels on the head of a pin...

What's to argue about? The answer is six. --Martin Peach, Richard

Actually, it's ANGEL_MAX. /Heathfield, and Clark S. Cox in comp.lang.c

"Mark D" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Kyler, I don't know where you live, but I take it you are not in the US?

Regardless of the mistake you felt you made, I believe it holds true
anywhere, that a Bicyclist/Pedestrian ALWAYS has the right of way.

Bicyclists using the roadway in the US are vehicles. They have (or don't
have) the right of way in exactly the same circumstances as any other
vehicle using the roadway.

Thinking "bicyclists/pedestrians" is dangerous. Bicyclists are not in a
category that also includes pedestrians, unless they are walking their
bikes. Bicyclists whe operate as if they are in the same category as
pedestrians are perhaps the most dangerous ones of all, because they do
things like ride against traffic, ride on sidewalks, and ignore traffic
signals.

It sounds like you need to familiarize yourself with your local traffic code
as it applies to bicycles.

RichC

~R said:

(snip)
: They *are* out to kill me.
:
: --kyler

They're ALL out to kill ALL of us. Especially young rednecks in
pickup trucks. Those are always hunting ME down.

For a few it may be intentional, but for most it's just that they are
poor drivers that are distracted by other things, and not paying
attention. I see this every day on the way to my son's school, and have
created a web page about it, "http://drivetoschoolhallofshame.com".

I have an attention getter on my bicycle that works every time a vehicle
begins to do what the one in the original post did, but not many people
are willing to do what it takes to take back the road, and in an ideal
world, such measures would be unnecessary. See
"http://www.nordicgroup.us/s78/images/img_0281.jpg"

Steve
--
http://drivetoschoolhallofshame.com
http://bicyclelighting.com
http://bicycleshortlist.com

85% of anti-helmet arguments are made up, 69% of them in Caversham, UK

SMS said:

world, such measures would be unnecessary. See
"http://www.nordicgroup.us/s78/images/img_0281.jpg"

See
"http://www.allelectronics.com/cgi-bin/category.cgi?category=555&item=ES-1&type=store"

"Kyler Laird" wrote ...
<snip>

Quoted message said:

I was riding to class and made a left turn (after signalling and
slowing for several pedestrians) onto a narrow two-way street. I was
turning just feet in front of a large SUV. Just as I was right in front
of it, it lunged at me. I could see clearly what was happening and I
realized that there was no way out of it. The bumper hit my left leg
squarely, knocking me and my bike to the ground. I rose quickly,
located my pannier, heard "Are you alright?" from the woman in the car
and thought "Hmmm...everything seems to be working..." My gloves even
absorbed my contact with the road and my wheels looked true.

<snip>

From your description, especially the description of where the SUV hit you,
you seem to have made your turn from the far right hand side of the road you
were turning from. If so, you may or may not be legally at fault but you
certainly increased the odds of getting hit by a car going the same
direction as yourself. When making a left turn (in countries where traffic
moves on the right side) on a two lane street, the safe thing to do is to
signal a left turn well in advance, move into the center of the travel lane
or the left 1/2 of the travel lane, then wait for oncoming traffic to clear
while continuing to signal a left turn. If there's a lot of traffic then the
courteous thing to do is to move to the center of the street when you get to
the intersection so that cars behind you can go around on the right. When
oncoming traffic permits then you complete your left turn and continue
cycling on the right side of the road, far enough out from the curb that
motorists can see you.

If you're making a left turn from a four lane street or a street with
designated left turn lanes, the safe thing to do is make your turn from the
right hand edge of the left lane, or the right hand edge of the left turn
lane. Taking the center of the travel lane you're using ensures that you are
visible to motorists behind you and discourages them from passing you at
inopportune moments, like when you are turning left. I wouldn't use the
center of the travel lane on a regular basis, but there are times when a
cyclist needs to be far enough out into the travel lane to make himself
visible or discourage overtaking, and one of those times is when the cyclist
is making a left turn.
--
mark

"Bob" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Kyler Laird wrote in part:

Quoted message said:

I was riding to class and made a left turn (after signalling and
slowing for several pedestrians) onto a narrow two-way street. I was
turning just feet in front of a large SUV. Just as I was right in front
of it, it lunged at me. I could see clearly what was happening and I
realized that there was no way out of it. The bumper hit my left leg
squarely, knocking me and my bike to the ground. I rose quickly,
located my pannier, heard "Are you alright?" from the woman in the car
and thought "Hmmm...everything seems to be working..." My gloves even
absorbed my contact with the road and my wheels looked true.

I was upset enough that I didn't stop to vent on the unapologetic driver
for pulling into me but as I rode off I realized I wasn't quite alright.
Just below my left knee is a two-inch gash that opens wide to expose
more layers of me than I like to see. It's been about ten hours since
the collision and it's not getting any better so it looks like I'll be
heading in for stitches in the morning.
The bottom line, however, is that I made the mistake of
cutting the corner too tight, relying on the car to wait for me. If
I'd made my turn well away from the car I would have been in a much
better position to be seen and to escape the lunge.

It's unclear to me what exactly happened. Was that driver was heading
in the opposite direction you were? For example, was she eastbound
while you were westbound but turning southbound onto a cross street? In
that instance you were mostly at fault. Was she going in the same
direction as you? In other words would she have been westbound in the
above hypothetical? In that case, fault can't be determined without
knowing more details. Did you *slow* for those pedestrians or did you
*stop* for them? Were you in the leftmost lane and did she try to pull
around to pass you in the intersection? In that case, the majority of
the fault lies with her. Without knowing the answers to these and a
bunch more questions it is impossible to say who bears the most fault.
Lacking that information, any statements assigning fault to either you
or to the driver are based more on bias than any clear understanding of
the facts.

i took it that the OP was northbound and wishing to make a left turn to head
westbound through an intersection at which there was an SUV approaching the
same intersection eastbound. because the street was narrow, he came within
feet of the SUV stopped at the intersection as he crossed its path. it
could very well be that the reason the SUV was stopped there is it had a
stop sign while the OP either didn't have a stop sign or reached the
intersection first and was now making his turn after coming to a stop. and
the SUV driver didn't do a good job of ensuring that the intersection was
clear. at least that's how i read it.

i think the OP is going to have to clear this up.

brink

Bob said:

It's unclear to me what exactly happened. Was that driver was heading
in the opposite direction you were?

No, she was at a stop on my left (lane beside where I was turning).

Quoted message said:

For example, was she eastbound
while you were westbound but turning southbound onto a cross street?

She was westbound (probably turning to the south). I was southbound,
turning east.

Quoted message said:

Did you *slow* for those pedestrians or did you
*stop* for them?

Slowed. I had no stop sign but there was quite a slug of them. (It
was class change time.)

Quoted message said:

Wishing you a speedy recovery,

I finally got stitches today. (9 on top, 4 below) I've been
adequately reprimanded for waiting. Looks like it'll be a few weeks
before they're removed. Infection is the threat now.

Quoted message said:

P.S.- I'm glad the bike seems relatively unscathed.

Yeah, it's been through a lot since I got it in middle school. I'm
still partial to it.

Thanks.

--kyler

(Mark D) said:

In many western states, it is eminent domain to carry a gun legally in a
vehicle without a permit, and the same holds true in a place of business
Why not on a Bike?

Maybe we should all write places like Nashbar, Performance, Colorado
Cyclist, etc, and have Bike manufacturers start making Gun Carriers for
our bikes, instead of panniers, or bottle cages?

I'm sure I would get a hell of a lot more respect out on the road, when
the careless "Soccer Mom" on her Cell Phone trying to get laid that
night, sees my Colt AR-15 strapped to the backside of my Bianchi!

Politically, I'm totally against everything you just said.

As a practical matter, though: right on, Brother!

(Just back from 50 miles ... only three instances, today, where I
wished for a Glock 27).

Mark D said:

Bicyclists using the roadway in the US are vehicles. They have (or don't
have) the right of way in exactly the same circumstances as any other
vehicle using the roadway.
Thinking "bicyclists/pedestrians" is dangerous. Bicyclists are not in a
category that also includes pedestrians, unless they are walking their
bikes. Bicyclists whe operate as if they are in the same category as
pedestrians are perhaps the most dangerous ones of all, because they do
things like ride against traffic, ride on sidewalks, and ignore traffic
signals.
It sounds like you need to familiarize yourself with your local traffic
code as it applies to bicycles.
RichC
======================================

[snip]
In many western states, it is eminent domain to carry a gun legally in a
vehicle without a permit, and the same holds true in a place of business
Why not on a Bike?

Maybe we should all write places like Nashbar, Performance, Colorado
Cyclist, etc, and have Bike manufacturers start making Gun Carriers for
our bikes, instead of panniers, or bottle cages?

I'm sure I would get a hell of a lot more respect out on the road, when
the careless "Soccer Mom" on her Cell Phone trying to get laid that
night, sees my Colt AR-15 strapped to the backside of my Bianchi!

Drivers always know that they don't want to carelessly [censored] on another
driver, as that driver may be packing heat. They figure with a Cyclist,
what could he be possibly carrying?
And ignore him, like some piece of worthless [censored] scurrying down the
road like a worthless squirrel, bird, or other vermin.

I live in southern NM. Most are courteous, but there's always the few
who act like they want to take your left shoulder off with their
"hillbilly" $100 pickup truck's sideview mirror. Either that, or they
make a right turn right in front of you like you didn't exist.

You're U-lock should be small enough to fit in your back pocket 😉

--
Paul M. Hobson
Georgia Institute of Technology
..:change the words to numbers
if you want to reply to me:.

Wed, 21 Sep 2005 17:56:28 -0600,
<[email hidden]>, [email hidden]

(Mark D) said:

In many western states, it is eminent domain to carry a gun legally in a
vehicle without a permit, and the same holds true in a place of business
Why not on a Bike?

Would you want to trust you life to a Shimano branded Chinese made
pistol and overpriced ammunition that might not be compatible?

Naw, leave the heat at home.
--
zk

Would you want to trust you life to a Shimano branded Chinese made
pistol and overpriced ammunition that might not be compatible?
Naw, leave the heat at home.
--
zk
======================================
Ya, I know ZK. Pretty much, I'm just blowing smoke out of my ass with
my previous "tongue in cheek" somewhat humorous post.

I never carried a gun on a bike in my life, and most likely never will.
There's been instances though, where I wish I had.

Truth of the matter is, a gun will usually get you into more trouble,
than it will get you out of.

Still, my view is unchanged about how I feel that cyclists are many
times disrespceted when on his/her bike, like we're some sort of game to
play "Tag. you're it" with.

Years ago, when I was about 25, I had the literal "heart stopping"
incident of having a 10 year old black child run into the side of my
Jeep Cherokee in the pouring rain while I was making a left hand turn in
an intersection.

It was as dark as midnight, it was pouring cats, and dogs, and I
honestly didn't see him until the last split second. I wasn't going
fast (Maybe 4-5 miles per hour), but it doesn't take much speed to
kill/maim a person with a 4700lb vehicle.

Luckily, he ran into the passenger door side of my Jeep, and bounced
off. At the time though, I thought for sure that he suffered much worse
injuries than the minor bump/bruise he had on his head.

It is at a moment like this, when one (A sane person does anyway) truly
learns the value of a human life, and the horror of taking it-snuffing
it out. Mark

(Mark D) said:

In many western states, it is eminent domain to carry a gun legally in a
vehicle without a permit, and the same holds true in a place of business

Why not look up "eminent domain" and get back to us on what it has to do
with carrying a weapon, openly or otherwise?

Kyler Laird wrote in part:

Quoted message said:

The bottom line, however, is that I made the mistake of
cutting the corner too tight

Kyler,

My compliments to you for figuring this out on your
own and taking responsibility for your own safety.
Most folks on these NG's haven't grasped that concept
quite yet. Above and beyond questions of legality, which
are quite insignificant while we're getting run down,
the only way we stay out of the ER is to take
responsibility for ourselves out there, as you found
out the hard way. Glad it wasn't worse. Could've been, but your gash
sounds plenty bad as it is. Take care and
heal well.

Robert

Kyler Laird said:

... she was at a stop on my left (lane beside where I was turning).

Quoted message said:

She was westbound (probably turning to the south). I was southbound,
turning east.

Quoted message said:

Did you *slow* for those pedestrians or did you
*stop* for them?

Slowed. I had no stop sign but there was quite a slug of them. (It
was class change time.)

When I combine what you say here with the details in your original post
I have a much better idea of how- and possibly why- the crash occurred.
There was a large group of students crossing the north/south street. A
person of average stature is difficult to see through a crowd of
pedestrians. It seems likely to me that in this particular instance
there would be some truth to it if the driver said, "I didn't see him."
That doesn't absolve her from any blame though because you didn't
proceed until *after* those pedestrians had passed and at that point
you would have been plainly visible.
I'd be willing to bet that even a casual conversation with that driver
would reveal that as the pedestrians crossed the street she looked for
a motor vehicle approaching from behind them. When she didn't see one
she just assumed that once the pedestrians had all crossed the street
it would be "her turn". She should have been more careful. You should
have exercised a little more caution as well (you made the assumption
after all that she was alert and aware of your presence and intent) but
on balance, it sounds as if it was mostly her fault.

Regards,
Bob Hunt