Final decision - new bike purchase

In article <[email hidden]>,
[email hidden] says...

Quoted message said:

OK, we're down to the wire. I went by Performance Bikes and
looked at the Giant Cypress SX, and it had a comparison
sticker showing its components vs the Trek 7500FX, claiming
to meet or beat them on every point.

One thing that seemed odd, is that they tout the Cro-Moly
front fork as

Quoted message said:

being superior to the all Alum fork on the Trek, b/c
"aluminum is stiff, but won't absorb shock as well as
Cro-Moly".

I sure hope the other points they supposedly beat the Trek
on are based on fact and not the fiction of aluminum being
stiff compared to steel.

Quoted message said:

So if any of you good people have any caveats or any
suggestions I should consider, please reply.

Get the best fit possible. Make sure the bars and stem are
the right length. If not ask them to swap them out for you.
---------------
Alex

On Mon, 17 May 2004 16:48:27 -0400, Alex Rodriguez <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

In article <[email hidden]>,
[email hidden] says...

Quoted message said:

OK, we're down to the wire. I went by Performance Bikes
and looked at the Giant Cypress SX, and it had a
comparison sticker showing its components vs the Trek
7500FX, claiming to meet or beat them on every point.

One thing that seemed odd, is that they tout the Cro-Moly
front fork as

Quoted message said:

being superior to the all Alum fork on the Trek, b/c
"aluminum is stiff, but won't absorb shock as well as
Cro-Moly".

I sure hope the other points they supposedly beat the Trek
on are based on fact and not the fiction of aluminum being
stiff compared to steel.

See, this is when I started doubting the hype. There may be
other reasons to have a Cro-Moly fork, but I'm not aware of
it, except it's less expensive.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

So if any of you good people have any caveats or any
suggestions I should consider, please reply.

Get the best fit possible. Make sure the bars and stem are
the right length. If not ask them to swap them out for you.

He said he'd swap out the front riser for me after I've
ridden it a while, no charge, if it doesn't seem high
enough. Is there a way to test that in the shop? A
measurement?

Thanks!

-B

Quoted message said:

---------------
Alex

Alex Rodriguez said:

I sure hope the other points they supposedly beat the Trek
on are based on fact and not the fiction of aluminum being
stiff compared to steel.

While it may be debatable whether you will notice a
difference on the bike, aluminum *IS* stiffer than steel.

In article
<[email hidden]>, email.to.sitting-
[email hidden] says...

Quoted message said:

Alex Rodriguez said:

I sure hope the other points they supposedly beat the
Trek on are based on fact and not the fiction of
aluminum being stiff compared to steel.

While it may be debatable whether you will notice a
difference on the bike, aluminum *IS* stiffer than steel.

But in a bike fork, the fork will only be stiffer than a
steel one if it's designed to be.

--
Dave Kerber Fight spam: remove the ns_ from the return
address before replying!

REAL programmers write self-modifying code.

"sittingduck" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Alex Rodriguez said:

I sure hope the other points they supposedly beat the
Trek on are based on fact and not the fiction of
aluminum being stiff compared to steel.

While it may be debatable whether you will notice a
difference on the bike, aluminum *IS* stiffer than steel.

As a material, aluminum is less stiff than steel: Al
6061-T6 Reynolds 653 Modulus of elasticity 10 29 ksi
Density 0.1 0.27
lb/in^3 Yield stress 40 100 ksi

In straight tension, Strain=Force/(area*modulus) so for a
given force/area, Aluminum will stretch about 3x more.

HOWEVER, in broad terms bending deflection in tubes is
inversely proportional to the 3rd power of diameter. Since
Al is lighter it can be made into larger diameter tubes
without a weight penalty, and you need a larger cross
section to get equal tensile strength anyway. It's really
the geometry of the tubes that makes Al bikes stiff, not a
property of the metal. If the tubes were the same size, the
Al bike would be too flexible and not strong enough.

On Mon, 17 May 2004 15:34:56 -0400, Badger_South <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

One thing that seemed odd, is that they tout the Cro-Moly
front fork as being superior to the all Alum fork on the
Trek, b/c "aluminum is stiff, but won't absorb shock as
well as Cro-Moly".

One fork may well be stiffer or more shock-absorbent than
the other, but it won't be because of material; it would be
design. Examine the design yourself, or better, ride it and
let your hands tell you.
--
Rick Onanian

Quoted message said:

OK, we're down to the wire.

I went by Performance Bikes and looked at the Giant
Cypress SX, and it had a comparison sticker showing its
components vs the Trek 7500FX, claiming

to

Quoted message said:

meet or beat them on every point.

First, not true, and second, it's kinda sad when a store
tries to sell a particular product by berating another. The
Trek 7500FX is a very "complete" bike, meaning that there's
very little people ever want to change on it. If you want to
get into the comparison game, you might question why Giant
chose to lop off the lower gear range by having a 26t
cassette on the back, in addition to a derailleur that isn't
designed to handle much larger than that.

Technically, both bikes have a high gear of 117 inches, but
the Trek offers a low gear of 23.6 inches, vs 31.2 for the
Giant, which is a pretty significant difference. If you
don't live in a hilly area, or have dreams of riding in one,
it may not be that big a deal.

Quoted message said:

One thing that seemed odd, is that they tout the Cro-Moly
front fork as being superior to the all Alum fork on the
Trek, b/c "aluminum is stiff, but won't absorb shock as
well as Cro-Moly".

If that's the case, why do they make the frame out of
aluminum? Vibration & shock come to your body according to
how your weight is distributed, so 65% (maybe more on a
hybrid) is coming through the seat, only 35% through the
handlebars... making the frame material more important than
the fork (*if* you believe the line that aluminum won't
absorb shock as well as steel).

It's not the material, but what you do with it that makes
the difference. An aluminum fork weighs less than it would
in steel, and any differences in ability to absorb road
shock are on a scale dramatically smaller than the choice of
tire. On the other hand, the weight savings can be
significant.

Quoted message said:

In addition he's agreed to swap out the standard tires for
Continental Gatorskins 700 x 25 (I wanted 28s, but he said
these were just as good).

Just as good for what? A 25c Gatorskin is a very nice high-
performance tire, but it is not nearly as comfortable as a
28c would be. The cool thing about the 28c Conti is that
it's still rated up to 120psi, making it a very versatile
tire... very fast if you run to full rated pressure.

Quoted message said:

So if any of you good people have any caveats or any
suggestions I should consider, please reply.

Trek is known for being one of, if not the best, for
warranty issues. This is not a minor consideration for a
product that you're going to have around for a while. This
isn't entirely a subjective thing either, as Trek warrants
their frames for life. And yes, we do see 20+ year-old
Trek frames coming in from time to time with an issue, and
there has never been any hesitation on Treks part to take
care of things. Yes, the usual exclusions apply, as in it
applies only to the original owner, you can't run it into
parked cars & fences, and cosmetics (paint) is only
warranted for one year.

Quoted message said:

As far as I know the only thing that really is of lesser
quality might be the paint job. It's all black, vs the
cool Metallic Black of the 7500FX.

I used to think it was silly to choose one bike over another
based on paint, especially when there might have been other,
more important points in favor of the less-attractive bike.
But I've seen the error of my ways... whatever it might be
about a bike that makes you want to go out and ride, well,
that's ultimately what it's all about. Riding. And if
somebody's going to ride a bright red bike with gaudy decals
more than something conservative, just because they think it
looks cool... that's fine with me.

But we've also avoided perhaps the most important issue,
which is the quality of the dealer. If one dealer is going
to do a better job setting the bike up for your particular
needs than another, that's a very important thing. You also
want to put a high priority on how you think the shop will
handle anything that's not quite right. Are they going to
cringe when they see you come in the door, and make up all
sorts of reasons why everything's your fault, or are they
going to see it as an opportunity to help you get more out
of your bike by making things right? That might be the Giant
dealer, or it might be the Trek shop. I suggest those
differences will have far more to do with your enjoyment of
the bike than small differences in specification.

--Mike-- Chain Reaction Bicycles
chainreactionbicycles.comchainreactionbicycles.comOpen ↗

On Tue, 18 May 2004 03:38:22 GMT, "Mike Jacoubowsky" <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

OK, we're down to the wire.

I went by Performance Bikes and looked at the Giant
Cypress SX, and it had a comparison sticker showing its
components vs the Trek 7500FX, claiming

to

Quoted message said:

meet or beat them on every point.

First, not true, and second, it's kinda sad when a store
tries to sell a particular product by berating another. The
Trek 7500FX is a very "complete" bike, meaning that there's
very little people ever want to change on it. If you want
to get into the comparison game, you might question why
Giant chose to lop off the lower gear range by having a 26t
cassette on the back, in addition to a derailleur that
isn't designed to handle much larger than that.

Technically, both bikes have a high gear of 117 inches, but
the Trek offers a low gear of 23.6 inches, vs 31.2 for the
Giant, which is a pretty significant difference. If you
don't live in a hilly area, or have dreams of riding in
one, it may not be that big a deal.

Well, now I'm wishing I had gotten this post before I went
in and bought the bike.

After riding it for a few minutes in my regular route, I
noticed that the gears seem to rub, or something is
squeeking in nearly every gear. The pedals feel too far
forward. They didn't adjust the seat high enough, and the
bars seem too far forward. I can't imagine riding this bike
for 10 miles let alone 25.

I'm planning on taking it back tomorrow.

-B

"Badger_South" <[email hidden] "]<[email hidden]>> wrote in message
"]<news:[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

He said he'd swap out the front riser for me after I've
ridden it a while, no charge, if it doesn't seem high
enough. Is there a way to test that in the shop? A
measurement?

The bars look very low for a so-called "Comfort" bike, but
this is a by-product of the threadless headset and can be
corrected with an extender.

It's rather ironic that the Cypress SX has the threadless
headset, while the less expensive DX has the threaded,
adjustable headset, and adjustable stem.

My sister-in-law has the DX. I use it occasionally when I
visit them, and I am glad of the adjustable headset on these
occasions.

For $600, the Cypress SX is a pretty good deal. The 7500FX
is $660 and as you pointed out, it has an aluminum fork
versus the chromolloy fork on the Giant. Not many
hybrid/comfort bikes come with the 105 group, and a
chromolloy fork, so the Cypress SX is slightly better in
terms of components.

Steve bicycleshortlist.combicycleshortlist.comOpen ↗

"Jesus Would Have Used His Turn Signals"

On Tue, 18 May 2004 03:38:22 GMT, "Mike Jacoubowsky" <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

First, not true, and second, it's kinda sad when a store
tries to sell a particular product by berating another. The
Trek 7500FX is a very "complete" bike, meaning that there's
very little people ever want to change on it. If you want
to get into the comparison game, you might question why
Giant chose to lop off the lower gear range by having a 26t
cassette on the back, in addition to a derailleur that
isn't designed to handle much larger than that.

Technically, both bikes have a high gear of 117 inches, but
the Trek offers a low gear of 23.6 inches, vs 31.2 for the
Giant, which is a pretty significant difference. If you
don't live in a hilly area, or have dreams of riding in
one, it may not be that big a deal.

Well, I'm pleased to report that the nice folks at my
Performance Bike shop took the bike back no questions
asked, except for a sincere 'Sorry the bike didn't work
out for you'.

I, of course, feel like a [censored] for doing that, but 5-10 on
the bike at my normal route told me that this was not going
to work. Having learned through the experience I will be
more careful in the final purchase.

In my defense, it's hard to get a decent feel riding around
in the mall parking lot.

Surprising that when I bought the beater MTN bike, it came
off the shelf, and into the car, no adjustments, and it fit
well enough to cause no problems until I had ridden it in
excess of 20 miles. After 5 min on the new bike, my left
knee was already hurting, felt like the bike was too small,
and as I said every gear shift brought new rattling and
squeaking. I happened to look down when the large gear in
front was engaged, and I swear the pedal arm was only
missing the deraileur by about 2mm.

Man, I don't know how people ever get a good fit and a
decent evaluation on a short ride.

Fortunately the bike shop folks were great and I spent a
sleepless night for no reason. ;-<

-B

Badger_South wrote:
:: On Tue, 18 May 2004 03:38:22 GMT, "Mike Jacoubowsky"
:: <[email hidden]> wrote:
::
:::
::: First, not true, and second, it's kinda sad when a store
::: tries to sell a particular product by berating another.
::: The Trek 7500FX is a very "complete" bike, meaning that
::: there's very little people ever want to change on it. If
::: you want to get into the comparison game, you might
::: question why Giant chose to lop off the lower gear range
::: by having a 26t cassette on the back, in addition to a
::: derailleur that isn't designed to handle much larger
::: than that.
:::
::: Technically, both bikes have a high gear of 117 inches,
::: but the Trek offers a low gear of 23.6 inches, vs 31.2
::: for the Giant, which is a pretty significant difference.
::: If you don't live in a hilly area, or have dreams of
::: riding in one, it may not be that big a deal.
::
:: Well, I'm pleased to report that the nice folks at my
:: Performance Bike shop took the bike back no questions
:: asked, except for a sincere 'Sorry the bike didn't work
:: out for you'.
::
:: I, of course, feel like a [censored] for doing that, but 5-10
:: on the bike at my normal route told me that this was not
:: going to work. Having learned through the experience I
:: will be more careful in the final purchase.
::

don't feel like a [censored]....I spent almost 3 hours riding
various bikes at the LBS before I made my selection. I would
have felt like a [censored] had I not bought anything, but I
walked out with $2000 fewer dollars in my pocket (rack,
computer, shoes, helmet, gloves, pumps, etc.) so they didn't
feel cheated.

:: In my defense, it's hard to get a decent feel riding
:: around in the mall parking lot.

spend more time....get on different bikes. let them know
that you're going to buy something...

::
:: Surprising that when I bought the beater MTN bike, it
:: came off the shelf, and into the car, no adjustments, and
:: it fit well enough to cause no problems until I had
:: ridden it in excess of 20 miles. After 5 min on the new
:: bike, my left knee was already hurting, felt like the
:: bike was too small, and as I said every gear shift
:: brought new rattling and squeaking. I happened to look
:: down when the large gear in front was engaged, and I
:: swear the pedal arm was only missing the deraileur by
:: about 2mm.

My guess is things would have settled out a bit after riding
for a while.

::
:: Man, I don't know how people ever get a good fit and a
:: decent evaluation on a short ride.
::
:: Fortunately the bike shop folks were great and I spent a
:: sleepless night for no reason. ;-<

Good...that's a good sign. Now get back in there and find
your new bike!

In article <[email hidden]>,
[email hidden] says...

...

Quoted message said:

Man, I don't know how people ever get a good fit and a
decent evaluation on a short ride.

Mainly because they've ridden enough to know what to look
for right away.

--
Remove the ns_ from if replying by e-mail (but keep posts in
the newsgroups if possible).

On Tue, 18 May 2004 10:23:03 -0400, David Kerber <ns_dkerber@ns_ids.net>

Quoted message said:

In article <[email hidden]>,
[email hidden] says...

...

Quoted message said:

Man, I don't know how people ever get a good fit and a
decent evaluation on a short ride.

Mainly because they've ridden enough to know what to look
for right away.

Hmm. I'm trying. It's not easy being a noob. At this point
considerations of price are really secondary, b/c when you
consider how much time you spend in the saddle, you want
everything right, including comfort, fit and longevity; you
want the components to not hold you back (as Mike pointed
out with the sub-optimal componentry of the Giant). Neither
of the local bike shops seem real big on the customization
part of the equation.

I have one more place to check, but it appears I'm going to
be waiting until the June '05 bikes get in as most places
are sold out of the '04s.

When I last bought a bike they had only two choices; a
Schwinn or a Sears no-name, and being a resiliant teenager/
20 y.o. you just get on and ride. But as an ancient
mariner, I have to coddle to my bad left hip and my knee
with the bump on the patella from too much jogging, etc.
This doesn't translate into a comfort bike, though - it
means the bike has to fit, and function nearly flawlessly -
then one can adapt.

-B

In article <[email hidden]>,
[email hidden] says...

Quoted message said:

He said he'd swap out the front riser for me after I've
ridden it a while, no charge, if it doesn't seem high
enough. Is there a way to test that in the shop? A
measurement?

If you put the bike on a trainer and ride for a while, you
can usually tell what feels comfortable. But it does take a
bit of time to do.
------------
Alex

In article
<[email hidden]>, email.to.sitting-
[email hidden] says...

Quoted message said:

Alex Rodriguez said:

I sure hope the other points they supposedly beat the
Trek on are based on fact and not the fiction of aluminum
being stiff compared to steel.

While it may be debatable whether you will notice a
difference on the bike, aluminum *IS* stiffer than steel.

Really? You should read a materials book sometime.
--------------
Alex

On Tue, 18 May 2004 12:14:31 -0400, Alex Rodriguez <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

In article <[email hidden]>,
[email hidden] says...

Quoted message said:

He said he'd swap out the front riser for me after I've
ridden it a while, no charge, if it doesn't seem high
enough. Is there a way to test that in the shop? A
measurement?

If you put the bike on a trainer and ride for a while, you
can usually tell what feels comfortable. But it does take a
bit of time to do.
------------
Alex

That makes a lot of sense. I'm surprised nobody suggested
that at the store, and offered to supply a trainer. It
doesn't take any skill to ride those, b/c it just hooks up
the back wheel, right?

Part of the blame for the failure of the sale, IMO rests on
the bike shop for just having a 'well ride it a while and
see how it is' approach. They don't offer anywhere to test
ride it except in a mall parking lot that's mostly flat and
one spends one's time trying not to get run over by
scurrying grocery shoppers.

-B

Quoted message said:

Hmm. I'm trying. It's not easy being a noob. At this point
considerations of price are really secondary, b/c when you
consider how much time you spend in the saddle, you want
everything right, including comfort, fit and longevity;
you want the components to not hold you back (as Mike
pointed out with the sub-optimal componentry of the
Giant). Neither of the local bike shops seem real big on
the customization part of the equation.

I must apologize for coming across a bit stridently. It's
not that the Giant has sub-optimal componentry as much as
it's a question of whether it makes sense for your riding. I
was also a bit steamed at a manufacturer taking on another
one in a spec-war, when doing so ignores things that are a
lot more important than whether one bike has a Deore
derailleur vs '105 on the other.

As for customization, the main thing you're looking at here
is a willingness to swap out stems as needed, and that
someone who has a clue gets a chance to look at you while
riding and make adjustments based on what they see. Still,
keep in mind that fitting hybrids and mountain bikes isn't
quite the science that you have for fitting a road bike; fit
tends to be more subjective on the hybrid, and the more
(nearly extreme) upright position throws most of the old
rules out the window.

--Mike-- Chain Reaction Bicycles
chainreactionbicycles.comchainreactionbicycles.comOpen ↗

"Badger_South" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

On Tue, 18 May 2004 10:23:03 -0400, David Kerber

ns_dkerber@ns_ids.net said:

In article <[email hidden]>,
[email hidden] says...

...

Quoted message said:

Man, I don't know how people ever get a good fit and a
decent

evaluation on

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

a short ride.

Mainly because they've ridden enough to know what to look
for right away.

Hmm. I'm trying. It's not easy being a noob. At this point
considerations of price are really secondary, b/c when you
consider how much time you spend in the saddle, you want
everything right, including comfort, fit and longevity;
you want the components to not hold you back (as Mike
pointed out with the sub-optimal componentry of the
Giant). Neither of the local bike shops seem real big on
the customization part of the equation.

I have one more place to check, but it appears I'm going
to be waiting until the June '05 bikes get in as most
places are sold out of the '04s.

When I last bought a bike they had only two choices; a
Schwinn or a Sears no-name, and being a resiliant
teenager/ 20 y.o. you just get on and ride. But as an
ancient mariner, I have to coddle to my bad left hip and
my knee with the bump on the patella from too much
jogging, etc. This doesn't translate into a comfort bike,
though - it means the bike has to fit, and function nearly
flawlessly - then one can adapt.

-B

On Tue, 18 May 2004 16:52:04 GMT, "Mike Jacoubowsky" <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Hmm. I'm trying. It's not easy being a noob. At this
point considerations of price are really secondary, b/c
when you consider how much time you spend in the saddle,
you want everything right, including comfort, fit and
longevity; you want the components to not hold you back
(as Mike pointed out with the sub-optimal componentry of
the Giant). Neither of the local bike shops seem real big
on the customization part of the equation.

I must apologize for coming across a bit stridently. It's
not that the Giant has sub-optimal componentry as much as
it's a question of whether it makes sense for your riding.
I was also a bit steamed at a manufacturer taking on
another one in a spec-war, when doing so ignores things
that are a lot more important than whether one bike has a
Deore derailleur vs '105 on the other.

Oh not at all. I appreciate your input to the max. It's
funny, b/c only a few cognoscenti would know enough about
the componentry to be able to see the relative merits. It
makes it all the more insidious as you're inferring, though,
b/c to the noob it gives that impression. You have to be
good at reverse-engineering the hype these days to see
through that kind of thing. As it was I questioned the
salesperson on each point and they didn't seem to stand
behind their assertions - probably was foisted upon them by
the promo guys at Giant.

Quoted message said:

As for customization, the main thing you're looking at here
is a willingness to swap out stems as needed, and that
someone who has a clue gets a chance to look at you while
riding and make adjustments based on what they see.

Yeah you have to be willing to take some time with a serious
customer and since there is a workshop in back one would
think they would swap out the stems while you wait if they
intuit you're not fitting well. I mentioned how on the test
ride that I still felt like I was reaching too much, but was
too shy to push the point after he said 'well ride it a
while...' That should have been a red flag to someone. I did
mention the mileage I put on the old beater bike and
described my riding habits - not to put too much blame on
the nice salesman, though. I now know better - it's far
better to make good choices before you hand over the plastic
and head out the door on both parties account.

Quoted message said:

Still, keep in mind that fitting hybrids and mountain bikes
isn't quite the science that you have for fitting a road
bike; fit tends to be more subjective on the hybrid, and
the more (nearly extreme) upright position throws most of
the old rules out the window.

OK, knowing what you do about my riding (city and bike
path), heavier rider, >50 y.o., relativley serious, riding
daily at 20mi/day, 100-140 miles per week and increasing,
what Trek would you suggest?

If I go for one of the drop bar road bikes should I expect
they'd get out a fit kit for that kind of purchase? Both
shops seem to be of the ilk 'well raise the saddle and go
ride around the block', unfortunately.

If I did go to another city, to a larger shop and purchase a
Trek with a professional fitting, would the local Trek shop
still support me, give free tuneups, etc?

-B

In article <[email hidden]>,
[email hidden] says...

...

Quoted message said:

OK, knowing what you do about my riding (city and bike
path), heavier rider, >50 y.o., relativley serious, riding
daily at 20mi/day, 100-140 miles per week and increasing,
what Trek would you suggest?

If you have a Fuji dealer around, they have some nice entry-
level road bikes as well: the Ace, Finest and Finest Al. The
Touring (my bike) is priced like high entry level ($800),
but is aimed much more at the touring crowd: Rear rack,
eyelets for fenders and front rack, threaded headset, double
water-bottle holders, steel frame, MTB rims, 32mm street
tires, wide bars, etc.

Quoted message said:

If I go for one of the drop bar road bikes should I expect
they'd get out a fit kit for that kind of purchase? Both
shops seem to be of the ilk 'well raise the saddle and go
ride around the block', unfortunately.

The Trek dealer in my area would do a full fit-kit workup on
bikes over $1000. For lower-cost bikes, they were willing to
work with me on the fit, but not a full workup. Just make
sure they can raise the top of the bars to at least be level
with the saddle (more important for us older riders who
don't have quite the flexibility). You can always drop them,
but if they cut off the stem, it's tough to raise them
without getting an extender.

Quoted message said:

If I did go to another city, to a larger shop and purchase
a Trek with a professional fitting, would the local Trek
shop still support me, give free tuneups, etc?

I think it would be unlikely, but not impossible.

--
Remove the ns_ from if replying by e-mail (but keep posts in
the newsgroups if possible).