feel like an idiot

"Robert" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I feel like a bit of an idiot using hand siginals, couple of other issues

as

Quoted message said:

well.

Does anyone use that up down arm movement to signify slowing down, when coming up to a parked car
drivers expect me to swerve out to the middle, however when stopping I

need

Quoted message said:

to do that arm movement and no-one understands it.

If you *really* need to stop behind a parked car why not just stop behind it? I can't remember a
situation where I have had to stop behind a *parked* car (as opposed to a car stopped in traffic),
but if I did I would just stop and not worry about hand signals!

Robert said:

Hi,

<mega snip>

Cyclecraft. John Franklin.

Worryingly my copy has gone missing so I can't give you the ISBN. Roadcraft is still sitting in its
place (Explains why cyclists are so much better than drivers ;-P )

Tim.

--
God said, "div D = rho, div B = 0, curl E = - @B/@t, curl H = J + @D/@t," and there was light.

tjw.hn.orgtjw.hn.orgOpen ↗ locofungus.btinternet.co.uklocofungus.btinternet.co.ukOpen ↗

Robert said:

Does anyone use that up down arm movement to signify slowing down, when coming up to a parked car

No. I don't think most drivers understand it, either. And surely it's more suited to motorists of a
bygone era, or with no working brake lights, or those in awkward situations, etc, not cyclists.
However, there have been unusual times where I've felt it might have helped me, but I didn't bother
in case it caused confusion , and I have to admit, would have made me feel like an idiot! It
certainly is a funny signal.

Quoted message said:

drivers expect me to swerve out to the middle, however when stopping I need to do that arm
movement and no-one understands it.

Signal left or just stop.

Quoted message said:

Right hand turn, I position myself just to the left of the center white lines, holding out my
right arm (height 6ft3"😉, on two occasions a motor cyclist has overtaken and luckily each time i
had it halfway down. also in south london ALL roads have parked cars both sides, meaning the
opposing traffic travels close to the center. My arm feels in great danger of being amputated.

Don't usually have to leave arm sticking out all the time. Just signal when you actually need to.
The position where you're stopped/crawling is usually enough to make it obvious what you're doing to
other road users. It's the signal before you reach the junction that's more important, and that
doesn't always have to be very long either - or even made at all if there's no other traffic close
by (the looking over shoulder trick partially acts as a good signal in itself).

So I only would feel like an idiot if I was signalling (left or right) unnecessarily - and I don't
tend to do that because it's more important to have arms and hands controlling the bike - regardless
of whatever the Highway Code might say. But when I do want to give a signal purely out of courtesy
(eg. turning left from the inside lane), I will just give a brief casual sign. That does the job
fine without acting like a wally.

~PB

Robert said:

Does anyone use that up down arm movement to signify slowing down, when coming up to a parked car
drivers expect me to swerve out to the middle, however when stopping I need to do that arm
movement and no-one understands it.

I have *never* seen it done by anyone except me just after I read about it in the Highway Code as a
kid. I soon abandoned it, as it serves no useful purpose and most drivers, as you say, don't know
what it means.

If anyone needs to know I'm pulling in to stop I do what I'd do in the car: indicate left
and pull up.

Quoted message said:

Eye contact, since riding a motorbike I do that life saver movement of looking behind me a lot,
drivers seem to leave a LOT of space when I do this, almost embarrasing as if i'm a terrible
cyclist in danger of causing an accident.

I like eye contact. I can see if I've been seen. Most handy at junctions and especially roundabouts.

Quoted message said:

Speed, when driving it's harder to overtake a cyclist the faster they go, so often i'll slow down
from 25mph otherwise it becomes dangerous IMHO when they try and are forced back to the left.
(downhill speeds )

If you're well positioned then an overtaking manoeuvre will have to use the other side of the road
and be properly considered, just like passing a new L driver or dawdling bus. I find cars overtake
me like that when I'm well positioned, it doesn't really seem to cause them any problems.

Quoted message said:

Right hand turn, I position myself just to the left of the center white lines, holding out my
right arm (height 6ft3"😉, on two occasions a motor cyclist has overtaken and luckily each time i
had it halfway down. also in south london ALL roads have parked cars both sides, meaning the
opposing traffic travels close to the center. My arm feels in great danger of being amputated.

Mine goes up and down according to need. The main importance of signalling is to let traffic know
you're moving right in the first place. Once you're stopped in the middle of the road by a right
turn it's pretty obvious what you're at.

Quoted message said:

Again , south london, if I ride in the gutter in winter,

Don't ride in the gutter at any time of year. If you're well out then you're only taking space which
is rightfully yours. IME (not non suburban London, admittedly) if I take space, I'm given it without
fuss or trouble, and I don't significantly slow people down either.

Quoted message said:

Anyone else been caught by lorries, I know to leave them space on roundabouts and on turnings but
on a straight road ?.

Again, you're less likely to be treated as if you're not there if you're well out from the gutter,
taking space so you *have* to be passed properly as if you were a car.

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch University of Dundee Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Medical Physics, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK net [email hidden]
dundee.ac.uk~pjclinchOpen ↗

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Does anyone use that up down arm movement to signify slowing down, when coming up to a parked car

No. I don't think most drivers understand it, either. And surely it's more suited to motorists of a
bygone era, or with no working brake lights, or those in awkward situations, etc, not cyclists.
However, there have been unusual times where I've felt it might have helped me, but I didn't bother
in case it caused confusion , and I have to admit, would have made me feel like an idiot! It
certainly is a funny signal.

Quite honestly I wouldn't expect too much from a motorist in terms of hand-signal understanding
these days, apart from the basic left and right turns. I think I was examined on them during my
driving test <ages ago now>, but I certainly haven't done them since, or seen anybody else do them
either. The current written part of the driving test may incorporate a more up to date examination
on hand signals, but jeeze, I wouldn't trust good communication between cyclist and motorist on this
one. Plenty of room for confusion here.

bob

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

drivers expect me to swerve out to the middle, however when stopping I need to do that arm
movement and no-one understands it.

Signal left or just stop.

Quoted message said:

Right hand turn, I position myself just to the left of the center white lines, holding out my
right arm (height 6ft3"😉, on two occasions a motor cyclist has overtaken and luckily each time i
had it halfway down. also in south london ALL roads have parked cars both sides, meaning the
opposing traffic travels close to the center. My arm feels in great danger of being amputated.

Don't usually have to leave arm sticking out all the time. Just signal when you actually need to.
The position where you're stopped/crawling is usually enough to make it obvious what you're doing
to other road users. It's the signal before you reach the junction that's more important, and that
doesn't always have to be very long either - or even made at all if there's no other traffic close
by (the looking over shoulder trick partially acts as a good signal in itself).

So I only would feel like an idiot if I was signalling (left or right) unnecessarily - and I don't
tend to do that because it's more important to have arms and hands controlling the bike -
regardless of whatever the Highway Code might say. But when I do want to give a signal purely out
of courtesy (eg. turning left from the inside lane), I will just give a brief casual sign. That
does the job fine without acting like a wally.

~PB

On Fri, 21 Feb 2003 23:36:48 +0000 (UTC), Tim Woodall

Quoted message said:

Cyclecraft. John Franklin.

Worryingly my copy has gone missing so I can't give you the ISBN.

-11-702051-6 Regards,

John

On Fri, 21 Feb 2003 23:08:16 GMT someone who may be "Robert" <[email hidden]> wrote this:-

Quoted message said:

Does anyone use that up down arm movement to signify slowing down,

Your hands are better occupied with the brakes than doing things that affect the balance like waving
an arm up and down.

Quoted message said:

drivers seem to leave a LOT of space when I do this,

What's wrong with that?

Quoted message said:

almost embarrasing as if i'm a terrible cyclist in danger of causing an accident.

Ditto. You can add to that by exaggerated wobbling, which tends to make motorists keep well away.
Which is more important, your safety or what someone else things of your riding skills?

BTW in most cases they are crashes not accidents.

Quoted message said:

Right hand turn, I position myself

Your position on the road is a perfectly good signal.

Quoted message said:

on two occasions a motor cyclist has overtaken

If they are close enough for you to touch then they are too close. Accidentally push them with your
hand, they are then unlikely to try it again.

Quoted message said:

Again , south london, if I ride in the gutter in winter,

Something you should never do.

Quoted message said:

Riding away from the "danger area" coupled with the frequent crossings and central bollards slows
cars behind me when they have to move left.

So what? You should not make your life more dangerous in order to allow someone else to save a few
seconds at the most. Their convenience is not more important than your safety. More likely they will
not save any time anyway.

Quoted message said:

Last thing, riding down Putney hill in south london (double lane), in the bus lane (on an uneforced
day) a juggernaut overtakes and drifts back into the bus lane as traffic builds up suddenly.

Always ride in the centre of such lanes.

As has been said, Cyclecraft by John Franklin is the book to read. Any book shop should be able to
order a copy.

--
David Hansen, Edinburgh | PGP email preferred-key number F566DA0E I will always explain revoked
keys, unless the UK government prevents me using the RIP Act 2000.

Robert said:

I feel like a bit of an idiot using hand siginals, couple of other issues as well.

Just because many cagers don't bother to signal, that's no excuse for cyclists not to. Of course,
the most important thing is to retain control of your vehicle - you don't want to have an arm stuck
out at a time when you really need both hands on the controls - but generally you should be safer if
your movements are predictable. Road positioning and hand signals are the best ways to help others
predict your movements.

Quoted message said:

Does anyone use that up down arm movement to signify slowing down, when coming up to a parked car
drivers expect me to swerve out to the middle, however when stopping I need to do that arm
movement and no-one understands it.

For stopping at traffic lights, obviously no signal is needed. For stopping at the side of the road,
I always signal. I always have (well, at least since I did my Cycling Proficiency 20 years ago) and
I probably always will. I can't imagine feeling silly doing it.

Once or twice, I've been tooted by cagers who clearly didn't understand the signal and evidently
thought I was arsing around. They probably thought I was giving some sort of Rimmeresque right turn
signal. Whether motorists understand the signal or not (and I'm well aware that many of them don't),
it seems to make stopping safer.

IME a motorist who doesn't understand the signal will typically hang back, waiting to see what I'm
about to do. If I didn't signal then there are occasions (e.g. most evenings when I pull up outside
my house) when stopping without a signal could well result in a car ploughing into the back of me.

Quoted message said:

Eye contact, since riding a motorbike I do that life saver movement of looking behind me a lot,
drivers seem to leave a LOT of space when I do this, almost embarrasing as if i'm a terrible
cyclist in danger of causing an accident.

You are entitled to that space. There's no reason to be embarrassed about encouraging cagers to
allow sufficient space to pass you safely, or to allow you to maneouvre safely.

Quoted message said:

Speed, when driving it's harder to overtake a cyclist the faster they go, so often i'll slow down
from 25mph otherwise it becomes dangerous IMHO when they try and are forced back to the left.
(downhill speeds )

How badly do you want them to overtake? In a 30mph limit, it's no hardship to drive at 25mph. Most
of the time you'll only have to get past them again 10 seconds later, when they catch up with the
traffic jam in front. In those circumstances it's better to dominate the lane and prevent them from
overtaking in the first place. OTOH if there really is a clear road ahead then often it's common
courtesy to let them past. But within reason.

If you slow down then your journey is being delayed, in order to reduce a possible delay to someone
else's journey (in fact there is probably no genuine delay to their journey - even if there seems to
be a clear road ahead, the chances are the cager will be on the tail of the car in front within a
minute or two of passing you). So, do you really believe that the cager's journey is likely to be
more important than yours?

Quoted message said:

Right hand turn, I position myself just to the left of the center white lines, holding out my
right arm (height 6ft3"😉,

By all means signal to pull out, but I wouldn't advise leaving your arm out once you're stopped.
Road positioning makes it clear to anyone with an iota of roadsense that you're about to turn right.
If you still get motorcyclists going past you (shouldn't have passed their CBT), well, you've been a
motorcyclist yourself, you know not to turn without a lifesaver.

Quoted message said:

Again , south london, if I ride in the gutter in winter,

You don't belong in the gutter. Take your place on the road, you're entitled to it and it's the
safest place to be.

Quoted message said:

Riding away from the "danger area" coupled with the frequent crossings and central bollards slows
cars behind me when they have to move left.

There aren't many urban areas (and I should be extremely surprised if South London is one of them)
where a fit cyclist can genuinely slow cars. Cars are slowed down by the congestion caused by - wait
for it - cars. If it's clear that once a car is past you you'll be passing it again 10 seconds
later, why worry about whether it can get past in the first place? And if the road's not all that
busy, then the chances are they'll soon find a space where they can pull out around you properly.

Quoted message said:

Anyone else been caught by lorries, I know to leave them space on roundabouts and on turnings but
on a straight road ?.

That sounds like a very lucky escape. Without having been there, two thoughts spring to mind. 1 - if
it was after dark (you don't mention the time of day), were you properly lit? That could have made a
difference to the lorry driver seeing you. 2 - You mentioned earlier riding in the gutter. Were you
riding in the gutter on this occasion, or were you correctly dominating the lane (as you were taught
when you learnt to ride a motorbike)? If you were dominating the lane, you would have been more
visible and would have had more escape room.

--
Danny Colyer (remove safety to reply) ( juggler.netdannyOpen ↗ ) Recumbent cycle page:
speedy5.freeserve.co.ukrecumbentsOpen ↗ "He who dares not offend cannot be honest." -
Thomas Paine

I do not do the slow down signal but I use right and left signals when there is another road user
who may benefit, sometimes my signals are shorter than I'd like but I need my hands to apply my
brakes and actually turn the bike.

When travelling fast (usually downhill) I sometimes, depending on the volume of traffic, the road,
the conditions move into the road to claim my space and let other road users see me properly. One of
my usual short rides from home is 11 miles long with a 2 mile climb and a pair of fast (40mph)
descents. The speed limit becomes 40mph on the descent and there is a left turn at the bottom so
most motorists are doing around 40, the road is fairly wide and the traffic usually light. I open up
on the descent, try not to use my brakes, keep my chin over the front wheel bum in the air, in the
centre of my lane I sometimes catch up to the cars but I have enough space on the right to overtake
if needed. Vehicles behind can usually not overtake me as there is not enough room if there is on
coming traffic. The drivers on this road on the whole are quite understanding, it is a country area
on the outskirts of Leeds, there are a lot of horses too so I guess the motorists are used to, and
in the main comfortable, with sharing the road.

I feel one needs to be assertive, cycles have as much right as other vehicles to be there.

"Robert" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Hi,

I feel like a bit of an idiot using hand siginals, couple of other issues

as

Quoted message said:

well.

Does anyone use that up down arm movement to signify slowing down, when coming up to a parked car
drivers expect me to swerve out to the middle, however when stopping I

need

Quoted message said:

to do that arm movement and no-one understands it.

Eye contact, since riding a motorbike I do that life saver movement of looking behind me a lot,
drivers seem to leave a LOT of space when I do this, almost embarrasing as if i'm a terrible
cyclist in danger of causing

Quoted message said:

an accident.

Speed, when driving it's harder to overtake a cyclist the faster they go,

so

Quoted message said:

often i'll slow down from 25mph otherwise it becomes dangerous IMHO when they try and are
forced back to

the

Quoted message said:

left. (downhill speeds )

Right hand turn, I position myself just to the left of the center white lines, holding out my
right arm (height 6ft3"😉, on two occasions a motor cyclist has overtaken and luckily each time i
had it halfway down. also in south london ALL roads have parked cars both sides, meaning the
opposing traffic travels close to the center. My arm feels in great danger of being amputated.

Again , south london, if I ride in the gutter in winter, it takes a lot of power to stop me
bouncing about on the overpainted yellow lines or the sloped guuters. Riding away from the "danger
area" coupled with the frequent crossings and central bollards slows cars behind me when they

have

Quoted message said:

to move left.

Last thing, riding down Putney hill in south london (double lane), in the bus lane (on an
uneforced day) a juggernaut overtakes and drifts back into the bus lane as traffic builds up
suddenly. I'm left with this lorry on

one

Quoted message said:

side and pedestrian railings on the other, about 4 inches away as he slots back into the bus lane.

What I should have done is brake and avoid it crushing me, but instead I carried on cycling at
about 30mph (seemed like 40 but computer had it) trying to reach the traffic where it would be
forced to stop. Luckily

either

Quoted message said:

he saw me or wanted to turn right as he went back out to the second lane. the back of the lorry
ending up approx 1inch from my face as it snaked

out.

Quoted message said:

Anyone else been caught by lorries, I know to leave them space on roundabouts and on turnings but
on a straight road ?.

"Bob Flemming" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Does anyone use that up down arm movement to signify slowing down, when coming up to a
parked car

Quoted message said:

Quite honestly I wouldn't expect too much from a motorist in terms of hand-signal understanding
these days, apart from the basic left and right turns. I think I was examined on them during my
driving test <ages ago now>, but I certainly haven't done them since, or seen anybody else do them
either. The current written part of the driving test may incorporate a more up to date examination
on hand signals, but jeeze, I wouldn't trust good communication between cyclist and motorist on
this one. Plenty of room for confusion here.

The only other one I do is the swirling you arm one, to let them know it's clear to pass. Most of
them try and squeeze by so don't get to use it too often 🙁

"Danny Colyer" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Robert said:

I feel like a bit of an idiot using hand siginals, couple of other issues as well.

<snip>

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Anyone else been caught by lorries, I know to leave them space on roundabouts and on turnings
but on a straight road ?.

That sounds like a very lucky escape. Without having been there, two thoughts spring to mind. 1 -
if it was after dark (you don't mention the time of day), were you properly lit? That could have
made a difference to the lorry driver seeing you. 2 - You mentioned earlier riding in the gutter.
Were you riding in the gutter on this occasion, or were you correctly dominating the lane (as you
were taught when you learnt to ride a motorbike)? If you were dominating the lane, you would have
been more visible and would have had more escape room.

I think that may be my problem, riding too close the kerb means motorists try to overtake me thiking
im a "slow" cyclist and the rest don't properly register me as being there. I 'll try riding futher
out and see if it helps(I imagine it will) . The lorry was broad daylight, clear summer day, so I
should have moved out more in retrospect (although it seems to be his fault IMHO). But as always it
can be quite intimidating when say a bus tries to get by .

--

Robert "he who must not ride in the gutter anymore"

"Robert" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Hi,

I feel like a bit of an idiot using hand siginals, couple of other issues

as

Quoted message said:

well.

Snip<>

I sometimes ride like an idiot on purpose (and sometimes not on purpose). Whether on my cycle or
motorcycle I use daft riding as a protective measure. If some car is too close I may well wobble and
dive across a lane on purpose. The car driver will assume I am incompetant and will avoid me like
the plague. Their insurance premiums are probably foremost in their minds.

John

Colin McKenzie said:

Really? In my experience drivers seem to expect me to ride into the back of the parked car if I
don't signal - or at best scrape along in the 3-foot gap they leave between themselves and the
parked car.

Colin your posts make me suspect you are riding in quite a nervous, almost apologetic manner. Your
position and manoeuvering on the road will communicate this to the drivers around you and the result
will always be the experiences you describe - being squeezed and bullied constantly. Most drivers
probably don't understand that they are treating you in this way, you need to ride purposefully and
with more confidence in order to clearly register your presence to other road users.

Effectively you need to act like a car. In your example of being squeezed when passing parked
vehicles, don't give those wanting to overtake the choice. Move out early, give yourself plenty of
clearance to pass with space to avoid a door being flung open unexpectedly etc. If this means taking
the entire remaining space in the lane for yourself, so be it, the traffic behind will have to slow
momentarily. If you slide past the obstruction as close as possible in order to try and leave room
for other cars then you're just encouraging them to use that space and you'll keep getting the nasty
end of it mate.

Seriously, buy and read the book recommended by others in the thread (Cyclecraft) and become a more
assertive rider, you will be much safer and you'll likely enjoy your cycling far more.

You may even discover that traffic is fun :o)

Bob
--
Mail address is spam trapped To reply by email remove the beverage

"Colin McKenzie" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Really? In my experience drivers seem to expect me to ride into the back of the parked car if I
don't signal - or at best scrape along in the 3-foot gap they leave between themselves and the
parked car.

How do you know? Have you flagged them down to conduct a survey?

On Sat, 22 Feb 2003 15:59:48 GMT someone who may be "Robert" <[email hidden]> wrote this:-

Quoted message said:

But as always it can be quite intimidating when say a bus tries to get by .

Bus drivers are no different to any other driver. The last bullet point of Rule 139 of The Highway
Code is incredibly badly written, but the drawing makes it clear. Unless the priority vehicle lane
is wide enough for the bus driver to overtake you properly while remaining in the lane they will
have to move into another lane to overtake you, no matter how thin you are and no matter how far
into the gutter you ride. It's far better to guide the like car drivers into overtaking you
properly, rather than making them think they can just squeeze past you.

--
David Hansen, Edinburgh | PGP email preferred-key number F566DA0E I will always explain revoked
keys, unless the UK government prevents me using the RIP Act 2000.

M Series said:

I do not do the slow down signal but I use right and left signals when there is another road user
who may benefit

The only time I've used the "slowing down" signal recently is when I'm moving into a passing place
to let following traffic past on a single-lane road. And I usually finish it with a forward
horizontal flourish, as most drivers seemingly haven't a clue what the signal means but understand
being "waved past."

Guy
===
** WARNING ** This posting may contain traces of irony. chapmancentral.comchapmancentral.comOpen ↗ (BT ADSL and
dynamic DNS permitting)
NOTE: BT Openworld have now blocked port 25 (without notice), so old mail addresses may no longer
work. Apologies.

On Sat, 22 Feb 2003 13:55:19 -0000, Danny Colyer scrawled: ) time when you really need both hands on
the controls - but generally you ) should be safer if your movements are predictable.

My worry is that hand signals from cyclists usually get ignored anyway, except by careful drivers
who are low risk with or without signals, and making them doesn't make you any more predictable
because most drivers don't see the omens.

I make hand signals rarely, although I understand this is personal preference brought on by
experience. The worst accident I have ever had happened because, while signalling during a lane
change, my front wheel hit gravel and I was thrown into the path of oncoming cars. Luckily they
narrowly missed me, but the impact with the road broke my wrist which required pinning under general
anaesthetic. But of course, anecdote is not the singular of data, etc. etc.

I don't know how controversial the "to signal or not to signal" debate might get here, so I stress
that I only signal rarely because that way I simply feel much safer. I think a lot of it depends on
both the environment you're in - hand signals are pointless during e.g. cycling on one of the busy
London arterial roads, and it's best to just have good awareness of cars around you - and what sort
of cycling you're doing - if you're moving fast as part of the traffic then lane changing without
signalling can be smoother than wobbling around while you signal.

J-P

Robert said:

Speed, when driving it's harder to overtake a cyclist the faster they go, so often i'll slow down
from 25mph otherwise it becomes dangerous IMHO when they try and are forced back to the left.
(downhill speeds )

Right hand turn, I position myself just to the left of the center white lines, holding out my right
arm (height 6ft3"😉, on two occasions a motor cyclist has overtaken and luckily each time i had it
halfway down. also in south london ALL roads have parked cars both sides, meaning the opposing
traffic travels close to the center. My arm feels in great danger of being amputated.

Hi Robert

I think its an inbuilt mindset thing: Ah-ha, a bike; it must be going slowly. I have to admit
thinking similarly in the days when I used to drive but did not cycle.

James

--
A credit limit is NOT a target.

James Hodson said:

I think its an inbuilt mindset thing: Ah-ha, a bike; it must be going slowly.

And it's not just pedal bikes. I remember my FIL mentioning his experience that a cager who will sit
quite happily behind a 1500cc motorbike travelling at the speed limit will do just about anything to
get past a 125 going at the same speed.

--
Danny Colyer (remove safety to reply) ( juggler.netdannyOpen ↗ ) Recumbent cycle page:
speedy5.freeserve.co.ukrecumbentsOpen ↗ "He who dares not offend cannot be honest." -
Thomas Paine