Feedback needed-no swearing pls

In article <[email hidden]>, "Joshua says...

Quoted message said:

NOW enter the problem part of all this...I am NOT a big fan of bikes made outside North America...
I keep preaching that line (in case anyone ever reads what I write).

The Feedback needed is this: given the choice of NOT having my tadpole (ever built) or having it
built in North America and due to high labor costs...said bent will cost (at least $1,000.00 more
to make).....OR do I stop dumping on RANS and others for going to Taiwan and join the masses who
have their bents made outside America?

Quoted message said:

Also note: IF the quality of the welds is NOT present, I won't do this. Also sorry about my timing
such a question just before the 4th.

Everyone outside the US is probably reading this and wondering what the big deal is - just go ahead
and do it.

Personaly I would prefer an American made product, like our Treks and Visions. But I am not so
jingoistic that I would reject a product just because the frame were made overseas, IF the quality
were there. (We own two RANS bikes too.) So if you can be certain of the quality, I would go ahead.

Steve Christensen Midland, MI

Your division is about this : should you be leading the pack and bring products to the masses at
affordable prices, or should you make a niche product very few will buy and thereby support some
low-volume shops.

My opinion : if you are not developing the product further, and therefore doesn't need quick changes
of the product, go with the chinaman (misunderstand me right, here ;-). If you need flexibility and
quick changes, well, you guessed it, have it made "locally".

It's all about your goals.

Regards, Torben

"Joshua Goldberg" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Am So Conflicted here:

I was "approached" last nite by a chap I deal with for Batteries in China (Not Taiwan) and he
asked how my Trike building was going...to which I replied that I was not able to find an Aluminum
Welder who works cheap....hmmm re-worded ( a welder who welds Aluminum) NOT a Welder made

out

Quoted message said:

of Aluminum...tough group here so I need to be precise LOL...

So the guy says he knows of a Welding Shop who specializes in Alum. and is doing bicycle parts for
nice big Taiwan based companies who are using China's cheaper labor rates...but shhhh don't tell
anyone....Taiwan don't want those Americans to know us Chinamen are making their (Made in Taiwan
bikes)...hmm hope he isn't talking about our Bents.

Anyway....he says he might be able to get my Tadpole framesets made in

China

Quoted message said:

at a price way below what I'd have to pay in Taiwan. Well this got me all hot and bothered.

NOW enter the problem part of all this...I am NOT a big fan of bikes made outside North America...
I keep preaching that line (in case anyone ever reads what I write).

The Feedback needed is this: given the choice of NOT having my tadpole

(ever

Quoted message said:

built) or having it built in North America and due to high labor costs...said bent will cost (at
least $1,000.00 more to make).....OR do I stop dumping on RANS and others for going to Taiwan and
join the masses who have their bents made outside America?

Also note: I would still try to keep a balance going, re: having some

parts

Quoted message said:

made in the USA and assembly is on this side of the Pacific. What $ I save using China would be
used to reduce the sale price of the trike...not to make me rich faster.

I added that "make me rich" part to give Ricky Horwitz something to laugh about while eating his
Cheerios.

Also note: IF the quality of the welds is NOT present, I won't do this. Also sorry about my timing
such a question just before the 4th.

PSWhen I was a kid the 4th of July was the one day everyone got good and

drunk

Quoted message said:

and THEN set off a ton of Fireworks in their backyard and they seemed surprised when their garage
or house burned to the ground.

"Joshua Goldberg" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Am So Conflicted here:

Dear So Conflicted:

You can now enjoy the benefits of slave labor without the guilt!

Just remember to always look for the Made in China label.

skip

Who needs my money most: a person in an underdeveloped country to buy some food, or a person in the
rich country, to purchase the 4. car to a the family?

"skip" <[email hidden]> kirjoitti viestissä "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Joshua Goldberg" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Am So Conflicted here:

Dear So Conflicted:

You can now enjoy the benefits of slave labor without the guilt!

Just remember to always look for the Made in China label.

skip

I cannot, in any way, conceive how it would be un-ethical to have your stuff made in Cina, on the
moon or in the good old USA UNLESS you misrepresented its place of manufacture on the label.

Get off your butt and DO IT. :-)

Lewis.

*********************

"Joshua Goldberg" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Am So Conflicted here:

I was "approached" last nite by a chap I deal with for Batteries in China (Not Taiwan) and he
asked how my Trike building was going...to which I replied that I was not able to find an Aluminum
Welder who works cheap....hmmm re-worded ( a welder who welds Aluminum) NOT a Welder made out of
Aluminum...tough group here so I need to be precise LOL...

So the guy says he knows of a Welding Shop who specializes in Alum. and is doing bicycle parts for
nice big Taiwan based companies who are using China's cheaper labor rates...but shhhh don't tell
anyone....Taiwan don't want those Americans to know us Chinamen are making their (Made in Taiwan
bikes)...hmm hope he isn't talking about our Bents.

Anyway....he says he might be able to get my Tadpole framesets made in China at a price way below
what I'd have to pay in Taiwan. Well this got me all hot and bothered.

NOW enter the problem part of all this...I am NOT a big fan of bikes made outside North America...
I keep preaching that line (in case anyone ever reads what I write).

The Feedback needed is this: given the choice of NOT having my tadpole (ever built) or having it
built in North America and due to high labor costs...said bent will cost (at least $1,000.00 more
to make).....OR do I stop dumping on RANS and others for going to Taiwan and join the masses who
have their bents made outside America?

Also note: I would still try to keep a balance going, re: having some parts made in the USA and
assembly is on this side of the Pacific. What $ I save using China would be used to reduce the
sale price of the trike...not to make me rich faster.

I added that "make me rich" part to give Ricky Horwitz something to laugh about while eating his
Cheerios.

Also note: IF the quality of the welds is NOT present, I won't do this. Also sorry about my timing
such a question just before the 4th.

PSWhen I was a kid the 4th of July was the one day everyone got good and drunk and THEN set off a
ton of Fireworks in their backyard and they seemed surprised when their garage or house burned
to the ground.

Bob Moyle <[email hidden]> wrote in :"]news:[email hidden]:

Quoted message said:

<!doctype html public "-//w3c//dtd html 4.0 transitional//en"> <html>
<p>Joshua Goldberg wrote: <blockquote TYPE=CITE>snip...
<p>I was "approached" last nite by a chap I deal with for Batteries in China <br>(Not Taiwan) and
he asked how my Trike building was going...to which I <br>replied that I was not able to find
an Aluminum Welder who works <br>cheap....hmmm re-worded ( a welder who welds Aluminum) NOT a
Welder made out <br>of Aluminum...tough group here so I need to be precise LOL...</blockquote>
... snip <br><b>welder:</b> <i>n</i>: one that welds: as <b>a</b> <i>or</i>
<b>weldor: </b>one whose work is welding <b>b: </b>a machine used in welding</html>

Yep, the html encoding made this info pretty useless to me.

-Bill Hamilton

"Joshua Goldberg" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:<[email hidden]>... [...]

Quoted message said:

NOW enter the problem part of all this...I am NOT a big fan of bikes made outside North America...
I keep preaching that line (in case anyone ever reads what I write).

[...] Indeed. You were quite insistent that it was not necessary at all to go to the Far East.

John Riley

I can't help with the guilt and the angst of going outside the US for services (just got back from
Germany for knee and back surgeries), but I am a metallurgist who's dealt with a lot of welding
problems. Keep in mind the need to travel to the vendor and the difficulty of keeping in touch with
them. I'm not suggesting that foreign companies are less reliable. I mean that every company I've
dealt with on welding concerns has needed their hand held at some point to make sure they did what
my company needed the way we needed it done. A few arguments and long distance business trips
together with the need to do an occasional weld evaluation locally to make sure their quality
control is good (cheaper than onsite inspection but still expensive) adds up quickly.

"Joshua Goldberg" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Am So Conflicted here:

I was "approached" last nite by a chap I deal with for Batteries in China (Not Taiwan) and he
asked how my Trike building was going...to which I replied that I was not able to find an Aluminum
Welder who works cheap....hmmm re-worded ( a welder who welds Aluminum) NOT a Welder made out of
Aluminum...tough group here so I need to be precise LOL...

So the guy says he knows of a Welding Shop who specializes in Alum. and is doing bicycle parts for
nice big Taiwan based companies who are using

"Joshua Goldberg" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Am So Conflicted here:

Quoted message said:

So the guy says he knows of a Welding Shop who specializes in Alum. and is doing bicycle parts for
nice big Taiwan based companies who are using China's cheaper labor rates...but shhhh don't tell
anyone....Taiwan don't want those Americans to know us Chinamen are making their (Made in Taiwan
bikes)...hmm hope he isn't talking about our Bents.

I had suspected as much.

Quoted message said:

Anyway....he says he might be able to get my Tadpole framesets made in

China

Quoted message said:

at a price way below what I'd have to pay in Taiwan. Well this got me all hot and bothered.

Naturally.

Quoted message said:

NOW enter the problem part of all this...I am NOT a big fan of bikes made outside North America...
I keep preaching that line (in case anyone ever reads what I write).

Maybe you didn't completely understand the situation.

Quoted message said:

The Feedback needed is this: given the choice of NOT having my tadpole

(ever

Quoted message said:

built) or having it built in North America and due to high labor costs...said bent will cost (at
least $1,000.00 more to make).....OR do I stop dumping on RANS and others for going to Taiwan and
join the masses who have their bents made outside America?

You need to take stock of the realities of bicycle production in 2003. Go ahead and have the frames
welded in China. It's better to employ Chinese workers than to employ nobody at all; and that is
what we're talking about, isn't it?

It's also about your target market. If you're in the Bigha price range, Made in America might be a
good choice. If you want to compete with BigCat, TerraTrike, etc, you really have no choice but to
manufacture offshore.

Since you're committing to offshore manufacturing, why not go ahead and have the bikes assembled
there, too? Use Sunrace, Dotek, Tektro and Cyclone/CRP components, Araya rims, Kenda tires - not a
Shimano or SRAM part on the entire trike. I bet you could really knock the price down with that kind
of strategy.

Of course, when you place your order for 100 trikes, I suppose you'd better have a dealership
network in place, ready to handle the customers. Oh, and there is marketing. And distribution. And
warranty claims handling. And customer support....

Best of luck, Joshua.

Barry

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

"Joshua Goldberg" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Am So Conflicted here:

Quoted message said:

"skip" <[email hidden]> kirjoitti viestissä "]news:[email hidden]

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Dear So Conflicted:

You can now enjoy the benefits of slave labor without the guilt!

Just remember to always look for the Made in China label.

skip

"optimistx" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Who needs my money most: a person in an underdeveloped country to buy some food, or a person in
the rich country, to purchase the 4. car to a the family?

Lemme get this straight Optimistx, there's a nine year old child forced to make fireworks in China
and you're telling me you're helping that child by going out this 4th of July and purchasing those
fireworks. Furthermore you believe by doing this you are also withholding money a rich person
somewhere.

How liberal of you.

skip

Joshua Goldberg said:

... I added that "make me rich" part to give Ricky Horwitz something to laugh about while eating
his Cheerios....

I would have though a trike builder would only be able to afford generic breakfast cereal.

Tom Sherman - Quad Cities USA (Illinois side)

B. Sanders said:

... It's also about your target market. If you're in the Bigha price range, Made in America might
be a good choice. If you want to compete with BigCat, TerraTrike, etc, you really have no choice
but to manufacture offshore....

I was under the impression that both the Catrike Speed and WhizWheelz TerraTrike were made in the US
- has either moved production elsewhere?

Tom Sherman - Quad Cities USA (Illinois side)

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

------=_NextPart_000_0007_01C341B3.C734E5F0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Bite Me "Bob Moyle" <[email hidden]> wrote in message =
"]news:[email hidden]...
=20
Joshua Goldberg wrote:=20

snip...=20 I was "approached" last nite by a chap I deal with for Batteries in = China=20
(Not Taiwan) and he asked how my Trike building was going...to which = I=20 replied that I
was not able to find an Aluminum Welder who works=20 cheap....hmmm re-worded ( a welder who
welds Aluminum) NOT a Welder = made out=20 of Aluminum...tough group here so I need to be
precise LOL...

... snip=20 welder: n: one that welds: as a or weldor: one whose work is welding =
b: a machine used in welding ------=_NextPart_000_0007_01C341B3.C734E5F0 Content-Type: text/html;
charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN"> <HTML><HEAD> <META
http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; = charset=3Diso-8859-1"> <META content=3D"MSHTML
6.00.2800.1170" name=3DGENERATOR> <STYLE></STYLE> </HEAD> <BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV>Bite Me</DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE=20 style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px;
= BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DV>"Bob Moyle" <<A=20
=
href=3D""][email hidden]">[email hidden]</A>&g= t;=20 wrote in
message <A=20
=
href=3D""]news:[email hidden]">news:3F0454F5.BFE4A70D@n=
osuchdomain.com</A>...</DIV> =20

<P>Joshua Goldberg wrote:=20 <BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3D"CITE">snip...=20
<Q>I was "approached" last nite by a chap I deal with for Batteries = in China=20 <BR>(Not
Taiwan) and he asked how my Trike building was going...to = which I=20 <BR>replied that I was
not able to find an Aluminum Welder who works =

<BR>cheap....hmmm re-worded ( a welder who welds Aluminum) NOT a = Welder made=20 out <BR>of
Aluminum...tough group here so I need to be precise=20 LOL...</P></BLOCKQUOTE>... snip
<BR><B>welder:</B> <I>n</I>: one that = welds:=20 as <B>a</B> <I>or</I> <B>weldor: </B>one whose
work is welding =
<Q>a:=20 </B>a machine used in welding </BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>

------=_NextPart_000_0007_01C341B3.C734E5F0--

sorry, accidently changed my send settings
***************
"Bill Hamilton" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Bob Moyle <[email hidden]> wrote in :"]news:[email hidden]:

Quoted message said:

<!doctype html public "-//w3c//dtd html 4.0 transitional//en"> <html>
<p>Joshua Goldberg wrote: <blockquote TYPE=CITE>snip...
<p>I was "approached" last nite by a chap I deal with for Batteries in China <br>(Not Taiwan)
and he asked how my Trike building was going...to which I <br>replied that I was not able to
find an Aluminum Welder who works <br>cheap....hmmm re-worded ( a welder who welds Aluminum)
NOT a Welder made out <br>of Aluminum...tough group here so I need to be precise
LOL...</blockquote> ... snip <br><b>welder:</b> <i>n</i>: one that welds: as <b>a</b>
<i>or</i>
<b>weldor: </b>one whose work is welding <b>b: </b>a machine used in welding</html>

Yep, the html encoding made this info pretty useless to me.

-Bill Hamilton

"Tom Sherman" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

B. Sanders said:

... It's also about your target market. If you're in the Bigha price range, Made in America
might be a good choice. If you want to compete with

BigCat,

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

TerraTrike, etc, you really have no choice but to manufacture

offshore....

Quoted message said:

I was under the impression that both the Catrike Speed and WhizWheelz TerraTrike were made in the
US - has either moved production elsewhere?

They're both doing very well at keeping prices down if they're building the entire trike in the US.
Then again, there are a lot of folks out of work these days...wages and opportunities aren't what
they were 5 years ago.

Joshua hasn't been forthcoming with any exacting figures; but I'm going to hazard a guess that he
can produce a nice tadpole trike in China that would retail in the US for around $1,100.

-Barry

"skip" <[email hidden]> kirjoitti viestissä "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"optimistx" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Who needs my money most: a person in an underdeveloped country to buy

some

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

food, or a person in the rich country, to purchase the 4. car to a the family?

Lemme get this straight Optimistx, there's a nine year old child forced to make fireworks in China
and you're telling me you're helping that child by going out this 4th of July and purchasing those
fireworks. Furthermore

you

Quoted message said:

believe by doing this you are also withholding money a rich person somewhere.

How liberal of you.

skip

With the same logic, if there is some illegal labor working in the U.S, , or some 9 year old
children working somewhere there , should I not buy products made in the U.S. ? Would I help that
illegal Mexican immigrant or child by buying US products?

I am withholding my money going elsewhere directly from me. I can not make rich people poor, and
that is not my wish either.

Liberal? I try to be a good world citizen. Kind to everyone. That makes me feel good. I try to help
people in underdeveloped countries in the best ways I know in my situation. If you know better ways,
I am very eager to learn.

Even if the Chinese bike parts I purchase may not be the best I think they are learning. 1950's
many Japanese products had very low quality. But they learnt. Now look at the Japanese cars: they
have learned.

You are free to feel otherwise. I even try to defend your right to think in your own way to my
last breath.

.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

"optimistx" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Who needs my money most: a person in an underdeveloped country to buy

some

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

food, or a person in the rich country, to purchase the 4. car to a the family?

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

"skip" <[email hidden]> kirjoitti viestissä "]news:[email hidden]..

Lemme get this straight Optimistx, there's a nine year old child forced

to

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

make fireworks in China and you're telling me you're helping that child

by

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

going out this 4th of July and purchasing those fireworks. Furthermore

you

Quoted message said:

believe by doing this you are also withholding money from a rich person somewhere.

How liberal of you.

skip

Quoted message said:

"optimistx" <[email hidden]> wrote in >message

.news:08aNa.64>[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

With the same logic, if there is some illegal labor working in the U.S, , or some 9 year old
children working somewhere there , should I not buy products made in the U.S. ? Would I help that
illegal Mexican immigrant or child by buying US products?

No that's a different logic. The United States does not permit child labor, involuntary forced
labor, or slave labor. You would be in serious trouble if you even thought about doing that here in
the States. That's quite different from non registered illegal Mexican adult voluntary labor (not
immigrants), which is something we do need to recognize and contend with here.

In communist China human rights and worker abuses are a way of life for that regime and are well
documented.

Quoted message said:

I am withholding my money going elsewhere directly from me. I can not make rich people poor, and
that is not my wish either.

Liberal? I try to be a good world citizen. Kind to everyone. That makes me feel good. I try to
help people in underdeveloped countries in the best

ways

Quoted message said:

I know in my situation. If you know better ways, I am very eager to learn.

If you support a state that condones or requires child or slave labor and if you purchase those
products it can only encourage that state to increase those human abuses. I would suggest a good
world citizen would boycott that system and speak out against it rather than support it.

Quoted message said:

Even if the Chinese bike parts I purchase may not be the best I think they are learning. 1950's
many Japanese products had very low quality. But they learnt. Now look at the Japanese cars: they
have learned.

All right. I don't see a connection to the issue of child or slave labor, but at least we are on
topic by your mention of Chinese bicycle parts.

Quoted message said:

You are free to feel otherwise. I even try to defend your right to think

in

Quoted message said:

your own way to my last breath.

Thank you. I will do the same for you and even go you one better. I will also defend your right to
freely speak your thoughts, which is a freedom the mainland Chinese do not yet enjoy.

skip

JG can do as he wishes, as can recumbent buyers, but ... FWIW there is an article in the July 3 Wall
Street Journal, p. B1, entitled "Why U.S. Manufacturing Won't Die." It says manufacturing will
center on complex, value-added products and systems....products requiring highly automated machinery
and systems... products in protected markets like medical instruments that are carefully monitored
and require colloboration with medical customers... products that are perishable, like frozen food
and bread...products that are big and bulky like kitchen cabinets...robotics...etc.

Workers in some developing nations will develop skills to do some of these jobs, but they will
demand higher wages, and even if their wages don't match US wages, they will spend their money,
increasing overall world-wide demand for products...

Bicycles actually seem like ideal products for developing nations because of their simplicity, low
capital requirements, high labor requirements, potential for both domestic and export demand, etc.
That said, points taken about the difficulty of communication and quality control. _Recumbent_
bicycles might not be high enough volume to make it worth the trouble.

John Riley

Sorry for not replying sooner, did not see your message till now. You are correct, I am totally
opposed to going offshore for something I feel can be done here, but I cannot find anyone who
understands how bent trikes work and is willing to work cheap (initially) to weld the frames. I am
still thinking of doing the Co-op and figure the only solution is to have the first batch of trikes
made in China and then get a training grant from the Feds to hire some apprentice welder(s) to get
into bents. "john riley" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Joshua Goldberg" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

[...]

Quoted message said:

NOW enter the problem part of all this...I am NOT a big fan of bikes

made

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

outside North America... I keep preaching that line (in case anyone ever reads what I write).

[...] Indeed. You were quite insistent that it was not necessary at all to go to the Far East.

John Riley