Fatique Profiling

Post away...

Although I'm surprised has there "best" numbers for all those required time frames. I have enough trouble getting honest numbers for 1, 5, 20 and 60 throughout the year let alone the dozen required.

I looked at it and it's stuff that should stand out to any competent coach looking at their riders power profile. What I have done is set up a L7, L6, L5 and L4 series of charts showing day to day (or having collected a bit of personal data over the years fortnight to fortnight) to track the improvements. For roadies I am content with L4 and L5 power, trackies the whole lot and sprinters just L6 and L7.

I also don't get to focused on the numbers of a performance manager chart just look for a nice gradual increase in the blue line without the yellow one falling away to much.

YMMV

Like Swampy says post away - there's one thing which makes it slightly misleading if you just look at it simply, particularly the anaerobic efforts if you have very good Neuromuscular ones. If the 30second power is high because you have "very above average" fatigue, then it's going to hide the real change in anaerobic power over the durations - ie it's not that the anaerobic fatigue is worse than average is just that the 30second power has a higher contribution of Neuromuscular power compared to the average.

Like fergie says the info should stand out pretty easy just by looking at the power profile - since that is all it's doing putting numbers on the curve for what is a typical shape - but if you've not seen lots of curves or looked at what typical changes are then it's a good tool to get you thinking. I also think it's actually pretty easy to identify the same info without any power meters just from how you race or group ride. I knew my NP power did not fatigue quickly and was relatively high and my anaerobic power was both poor and short lived (so fatiguing quickly) before I even got a power meter.

Also as swampy says the numbers will be a little sensitive to what your max efforts are, so I'd look at what an educated guess from an idealised mean max curve that you've "filled in" might be - ie if you've not done a 3 minute effort but have 2:30 and 3:30's pick an appropriate watts from somewhere between these.

Many thanks, was not sure if anyone would look at this or help at all.

The reason I asked is that with the figures, my reading of them is very much different from what I had expected and different from the class of rider i thought i could be. OK, so I maybe have not been riding long enough or training properly but it might also be that I am not understanding what I am looking at.
L7-Neuromuscular Power 5s - 1130 10s - 1075 Well Above Avg 20s - 688 Avg
L6-Anaerobic Capacity 30s - 560 1min - 462 Above Avg 2min - 357 Below Avg
L5-V02 Max 3min - 341 5min - 309 Avg 8min - 294 Above Avg
L4-Lactate Threshold 20min - 255 60min - 220 Below Avg 90min - 208 Below Avg

I am not reading too much into were it says Above Average, I take it that this is just in relation to me, as my figures are probably well below average of most decent riders. I do reckon that I have a big problem with my aerobic fitness as my 60 and 90 min are below average, this would not be good for any one wanting to do road races ? As for the other figures I am not sure what to make of them so if you can enlighten me great !!!

OH, I have also put up my mean max power graph, not sure if this is the one that some of you talked about, but its up now if it is any help also.

[IMG]cyclingforums.com500Open ↗[/IMG]

Paging Hunter Allen!!!

I don't think the above average is a comparison with others more an indication that the fatigue profile is above average for each level.

That you see such a drop off may reflect a lack of focus on the anaerobic zones. As I mentioned with road riders I just focus on L4 and L5 power as this is the bread and butter of road cycling and would go as far to say that L4 is a big chunk of bread and L5 a sliver of butter spread finely over top.

Looking at the numbers I would suggest road rider who stays covered up and makes a late dash for cash in races. But then possibly if you did track racing the fatigue profile would take a different shape. I know my fatigue profile would look different if I took out the track racing nights I used a power meter in. Less likely to alter things would be riding crits because of the constant freewheeling through corners.

lol I wish I could make a dash for cash but usually I am dropped before the finish, either speed or hills will see me disappear faster than [censored] of a shovel !.

Last year was my first year racing and I did short RR's and TT's. Before that I had a few years break and previous to that I played football for 25 years, most of our training would have been short and flat out, no real endurance stuff. If my aim is to ride 10 and 25 mile time trials and 25 to 50 mile road races, I am guessing that I would need to push up my LT but also looking at my 2 min power where it says it is below average, is that something that will hold me back on short sharp climbs during a race or maybe even on attempts to get away or close gaps ?

Or am I better just looking at my 5 sec, 1 min, 5 min and 20 min power as per the Power Profile Chart and working from there ?

Firstly I'd say that the data is very suggestive of inappropriate use of the data you have - the 20 second in particular is almost guaranteed to not be what you're capable of so that you fatigue "below average" from there is not real, it's simply that you've not ever done an all out 20second effort. (It's pretty unlikely that after your 1075 watt 10second effort you were genuinely so spent that you could only put out 300watts for the next 10seconds) Find an appropriate hill (probably a dip with a fast entrance and a steady but increasing gradient that lasts 20seconds and you could I'd've thought do at least 800 watts for 30 seconds and would be above average fatigue for that. That's the essential problem with the concept, it only works if you have maximal efforts. I'm pretty sure you don't. (It's also reliant on the data being accurate and I'd like to see how it was collected, as again 20second all out efforts are rare)

The mean max chart your showing is not granular enough to see genuine maximal efforts - it's been smoothed to uselessness, look at your data in GoldenCheetah or the standalone version of WKO as the online version is just not really suitable for this.

Similarly with the 2 minute, it stands out that you probably have never done a 2 minute effort, that's not surprising why would you unless you have a hill which happens to take 2 minutes to climb? And the rate of fatigue is so high at these durations that if you take it from a 2:30 effort you'll become below average regardless of your actual ability.

Did you use NP for the 60 and 90 minute efforts as Hunter recommended in the accompanying PDF (For me doing this of course meant that my 60minute was higher than my 20minute as I've never done a 20minute effort that is genuinely all out in the same position I can put the power out over a 60minute NP) If not then that's a simple explanation of the below average there.

So what can you do? You could go out and really test all the durations - difficult, time consuming (If I do a 1 minute all out effort on a ride I'm going to be 10-20% down on any subsequent duration effort until the next day at least!) or make more educated guesses for your numbers from your Mean Max curves and comparing your genuine maximal efforts of durations and what they suggest.

However I wouldn't see the point, we don't know what you weigh, but that you say you get dropped regularly suggests that you're not of a weight which makes the numbers high. Which suggests you have plenty of all around improvement to be made and you're a lot better off just training everything to get better. And if you're getting dropped in races there's really nothing to be learnt anyway as until you're safely in the finish with the pack deciding how to spend your watts to maximise the win is irrelevant, you don't get to choose. You could use it to pick races you'd do well at (I know I have to avoid races where the defining moments are between 1 and 2 minutes as I don't have the power there) but even that it's likely just tell you to pick races which are essentially flat and you can just use your strong NP to stay on wheels and get you to the end.

The fatigue profile is a useful bit of data sure, but an FT of 220 is unlikely to cut it unless you happen to be very, very lithe....which you've not mentioned.

In a case such as this, that is in what is a clearly aerobic sport, then you have to have an FT that's at least in the ballpark to let you stay with the bunch. If you do that then it seems you've got a healthy enough anaerobic capacity to have a go at an attack or the bunch sprint and maybe get a result.

So looking at your case, the fatigue profile seems to largely be strictly academic while the general power profile is far more telling.

OK that sounds reasonable. Sounds like you guys don't use this a lot if at all ?

But I would like to know a little if possible about where my strengths might be and what is likely to be my main weakness so I can plan my training and if necessary what type of races I would do best in. Maybe it is all too son for that although i do have a year of riding with quite a few races and time trials. If it is too soon, is it just more riding I need, or is there anything in particular I can do to bring me up a level, whereby more testing can be done to find out what type of rider I could be.

Regards my weight, I am 82.5kg's and coming down slowly, I hope to hit 76kg before racing starts. I have properly tested my power at the times in the Power Profile Chart and they are as follows

5 sec 13.7 w/kg top - Cat5 / bottom
Cat 4 1 min 5.6 w/kg - not even on the chart !
5 min 2.7 w/kg - middle of untrained
FTP 2.9 w/kg - middle / top of Cat 5

it sure does look like I have to improve power at all levels !!!

Quoted post said:

Originally Posted by uptheswa [IMG]/img/forum/go_quote.gif[/IMG]

OK that sounds reasonable. Sounds like you guys don't use this a lot if at all ?

But I would like to know a little if possible about where my strengths might be and what is likely to be my main weakness so I can plan my training and if necessary what type of races I would do best in. Maybe it is all too son for that although i do have a year of riding with quite a few races and time trials. If it is too soon, is it just more riding I need, or is there anything in particular I can do to bring me up a level, whereby more testing can be done to find out what type of rider I could be.

Regards my weight, I am 82.5kg's and coming down slowly, I hope to hit 76kg before racing starts. I have properly tested my power at the times in the Power Profile Chart and they are as follows

5 sec 13.7 w/kg top - Cat5 / bottom
Cat 4 1 min 5.6 w/kg - not even on the chart !
5 min 2.7 w/kg - middle of untrained
FTP 2.9 w/kg - middle / top of Cat 5

it sure does look like I have to improve power at all levels !!!

Don't take any offence by this, but from your numbers it's hard to say what your strengths are. You are just too untrained. Give yourself another good year of solid training -- not overdoing it, but not just riding around aimlessly either -- and then review your numbers and see where you are.

But I can say your weakness is threshold, so threshold training should be your most important goal -- raising your FTP. And if your 5 min really is 309, I'd say once you get your FTP up around 250 you should do some Vo2max training (~5 min training) to "raise the roof" a bit to allow your FTP to get even higher (and also because road racing, like Fergie said, is all about Z4 and Z5 power).

So once you've lost some weight, added some threshold power, sparked up your Vo2max power a bit, and are comfortably finishing in the bunch and surviving all the attacks and surges, you can think about working on sprinting and tactics. You may never be that great at hilly races but at least if you improve your threshold you'll be in the thick of things in a flat race. So that's where you want to start. And you will improve your TT times too.

Quoted post said:

Originally Posted by uptheswa [IMG]/img/forum/go_quote.gif[/IMG]

5 sec 13.7 w/kg top - Cat5 / bottom
Cat 4 1 min 5.6 w/kg - not even on the chart !
5 min 2.7 w/kg - middle of untrained
FTP 2.9 w/kg - middle / top of Cat 5

it sure does look like I have to improve power at all levels !!!

Pardon, but surely this is mistaken? How can your 5 minute power be less than your FTP? I'm thinking that must be a typographic error since you mentioned it being a bit over 300w earlier...

More importantly, as far as your progress...

Put it this way, if your FTP were say, 4 w/kg, even if all the other power profile metrics (5s, 1m, 5m) remained "untrained" (and they wouldn't...) you'd have much, much better results. The weight loss will make a positive difference too.

As Smaryka pointed out, keep riding and training, then give it some time. Everyone's potential is different but consistent, smart training is the key to help you reach it.

smaryka, i am not offended, I like honesty even if it hurts....ouch

DancanMacCabre, I did make a typo my 5 min should be 3.7 w/kg

I did think that with my FTP being so low that it would need the focus of all my attention. And I thought that I should not really worry about the others until my FTP was at a reasonable level to race at, maybe the others will be a bit higher then too.

I have set myself some targets regards weight and FTP so hopefully I can get my FTP power to weight to over 3.5 w/kg, I think it should be achievable :-)

Quoted post said:

Originally Posted by uptheswa [IMG]/img/forum/go_quote.gif[/IMG]

smaryka, i am not offended, I like honesty even if it hurts....ouch

DancanMacCabre, I did make a typo my 5 min should be 3.7 w/kg

I did think that with my FTP being so low that it would need the focus of all my attention. And I thought that I should not really worry about the others until my FTP was at a reasonable level to race at, maybe the others will be a bit higher then too.

I have set myself some targets regards weight and FTP so hopefully I can get my FTP power to weight to over 3.5 w/kg, I think it should be achievable :-)

When you're starting off you're never ready to race.

You could have an FTP somewhere around 300watts and weigh as much as a chihuahua but some fool will keep launching attacks on the little hills and around sharp corners and you'll get shelled out the back on the 3 millionth hard acceleration of the race while you wonder why your legs feel like superheated lead.

You could have the recovery from an anaerobic effort of a seasoned pro but you may lack the FTP... In which case on a long hill you'll get shelled out the back on a longish hill or on an exposed section with bad crosswinds. You could also suffer from being caught behind the next to the last guy in the pack when he touches wheels and goes down, leaving you to chase with an FTP equivalent to a three legged hamster.

... just get your license and go race. 😉

Have some fun while you're at it.