Fatality in D.C.

"Badger_South" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Bicyclist standing with bike hit by tractor trailer at intersection

http://www.wtopnews.com/?sid=238033&nid=25

I remember Constitution ave. It scared the [censored] out of me as a pedestrian!
DC drivers hug the curbs so close they're practically on the sidewalk. Small
wonder there aren't more accidents there. I was scared just crossing the
street!

Recently, there have been a couple of bike-car accidents that weren't fatal,
but bad, and in both cases were actually brought on by really dumb bikers
who were on roads where I'd never go- busy like Constitution. In one case, a
guy was on a bike, 3 am, no helmet, no flashers, went through a red light
and headfirst into a windshield. ANd he'd been drinking. He had bad head
injuries but not killed. Sorry, but that is just dumb- why not put a gun in
your mouth? .In the other case a guy was riding his bike on a busy
boulevard where no sane person would ride a bike, also at night, no helmet,
went through an intersection and was hit by a car, but miraculously not
badly hurt. A girl was killed on that boulevard a few years ago, also at
night, hit from behind on her bike.Even during the day I'd never ride a bike
there!

I love that the quick article is about the fact taht traffic is going to be
shut down for a while, not that a truck plowed into some guy waiting at a
red light with his bike or something.

Mike

"Badger_South" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Bicyclist standing with bike hit by tractor trailer at intersection

http://www.wtopnews.com/?sid=238033&nid=25

Mike Beauchamp said:

I love that the quick article is about the fact taht traffic is going to be
shut down for a while, not that a truck plowed into some guy waiting at a
red light with his bike or something.

Its the web site for a television station and that tends to be the
focus that time of the morning.They tend to be the same way short of
four or five deaths all at once.

Although how 5:50 am became prime driving, even in DC, I can't guess.
7:00 am on is more like prime.

Curtis L. Russell
Odenton, MD (USA)
Just someone on two wheels...

Curtis L. Russell said:

Mike Beauchamp said:

I love that the quick article is about the fact taht traffic is going to be
shut down for a while, not that a truck plowed into some guy waiting at a
red light with his bike or something.

Its the web site for a television station and that tends to be the
focus that time of the morning.They tend to be the same way short of
four or five deaths all at once.

Although how 5:50 am became prime driving, even in DC, I can't guess.
7:00 am on is more like prime.

Curtis L. Russell
Odenton, MD (USA)
Just someone on two wheels...

It's getting earlier. I left Va Beach, thinking to miss the traffic, at
0445 on Monday, and the traffic was already very heavy and there had been
one accident. It's getting so I only travel early Sunday morning and
there's still a lot of traffic by 0730 heading across the tunnel (typically
lots of vans and guys towing boats)

-B

Marlene Blanshay said:

I remember Constitution ave. It scared the [censored] out of me as a pedestrian!
DC drivers hug the curbs so close they're practically on the sidewalk. Small
wonder there aren't more accidents there. I was scared just crossing the
street!

Well, different people have different levels of skill and different
tolerance for risk. The fact you were scared isn't absolute proof of
danger. I've ridden Constitution Ave with no problem (but admittedly
not at rush hour).

Quoted message said:

Recently, there have been a couple of bike-car accidents that weren't fatal,
but bad, and in both cases were actually brought on by really dumb bikers
who were on roads where I'd never go- busy like Constitution. In one case, a
guy was on a bike, 3 am, no helmet, no flashers, went through a red light
and headfirst into a windshield. ANd he'd been drinking. He had bad head
injuries but not killed. Sorry, but that is just dumb- why not put a gun in
your mouth? .In the other case a guy was riding his bike on a busy
boulevard where no sane person would ride a bike, also at night, no helmet,
went through an intersection and was hit by a car, but miraculously not
badly hurt.

Since you brought it up: It's too bad those guys weren't wearing
helmets! Two great opportunities for "My helmet saved my life!!!"
stories. You hate to see them squandered like that!

More seriously: Why not discuss behavior that really makes a
difference? In the first case, you had plenty to address with the
drinking, the lack of lights and the running of the red light.

In the second case, you haven't shown the cyclist did anything wrong at
all. Implying he's insane just because he does what you wouldn't do is
wrong.

Keep in mind that there are motorists who use your "logic" against _any_
cyclist who gets hurt in _any_ circumstance. Your version is only a
little less intolerant.

--
--------------------+
Frank Krygowski [To reply, remove rodent and vegetable dot com,
replace with cc.ysu dot edu]

Badger_South said:

Bicyclist standing with bike hit by tractor trailer at intersection

http://www.wtopnews.com/?sid=238033&nid=25

It sounds to me like it was a pedestrian that was hit. He happened to
be standing there with a bicycle.

This is an important distinction. Someone needs to notify the "walking"
discussion groups, so the proper amount of fear can be spread among
pedestrians. In fact, this needs to be done for each of the 6,500
pedestrians killed each year in the US.

--
--------------------+
Frank Krygowski [To reply, remove rodent and vegetable dot com,
replace with cc.ysu dot edu]

Frank Krygowski said:

Badger_South said:

Bicyclist standing with bike hit by tractor trailer at intersection

http://www.wtopnews.com/?sid=238033&nid=25

It sounds to me like it was a pedestrian that was hit. He happened to
be standing there with a bicycle.

This is an important distinction. Someone needs to notify the "walking"
discussion groups, so the proper amount of fear can be spread among
pedestrians. In fact, this needs to be done for each of the 6,500
pedestrians killed each year in the US.

You're of course correct, it's really a pedestrian fatality.

However we post bike-related fatalities not to show that biking is
dangerous, but to honor and note a fallen comrade; or at least that's why I
posted it.

-B

"Frank Krygowski" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Marlene Blanshay said:

I remember Constitution ave. It scared the [censored] out of me as a

pedestrian!

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

DC drivers hug the curbs so close they're practically on the sidewalk.

Small

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

wonder there aren't more accidents there. I was scared just crossing the
street!

Well, different people have different levels of skill and different
tolerance for risk. The fact you were scared isn't absolute proof of
danger. I've ridden Constitution Ave with no problem (but admittedly
not at rush hour).

Quoted message said:

Recently, there have been a couple of bike-car accidents that weren't

fatal,

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

but bad, and in both cases were actually brought on by really dumb

bikers

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

who were on roads where I'd never go- busy like Constitution. In one

case, a

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

guy was on a bike, 3 am, no helmet, no flashers, went through a red

light

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

and headfirst into a windshield. ANd he'd been drinking. He had bad head
injuries but not killed. Sorry, but that is just dumb- why not put a gun

in

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

your mouth? .In the other case a guy was riding his bike on a busy
boulevard where no sane person would ride a bike, also at night, no

helmet,

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

went through an intersection and was hit by a car, but miraculously not
badly hurt.

Since you brought it up: It's too bad those guys weren't wearing
helmets! Two great opportunities for "My helmet saved my life!!!"
stories. You hate to see them squandered like that!

More seriously: Why not discuss behavior that really makes a
difference? In the first case, you had plenty to address with the
drinking, the lack of lights and the running of the red light.

In the second case, you haven't shown the cyclist did anything wrong at
all. Implying he's insane just because he does what you wouldn't do is
wrong.

Keep in mind that there are motorists who use your "logic" against _any_
cyclist who gets hurt in _any_ circumstance. Your version is only a
little less intolerant.

I am not the same as motorists who think all cyclists are 'bad' and it's
ridiculous to lump me with those morons. The second cyclist showed
incredibly poor judgement. It turned out that the driver wasn't at fault, it
was the cyclist who went through a red light, not wearing a helmet, at night
on a boulevard which is dangerous at any hour. You'd have to live in this
city to know that road anyways- it's one of those that you'd avoid at all
costs if you value your life. Around here, we call cyclists like those poor
guys "organ donors". There are certain circumstances where you're basically
playing with a loaded gun, and that's not intolerance, it's just a fact.

As for Constitution ave, it's probably a lot less dangerous for drivers than
it is for cyclists or pedestrians.

On Fri, 30 Jul 2004 20:00:31 -0400, Badger_South <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

You're of course correct, it's really a pedestrian fatality.

However we post bike-related fatalities not to show that biking is
dangerous, but to honor and note a fallen comrade; or at least that's why I
posted it.

I don't want to hear about fatalities here, nor do I want the google
to record nothing but fatality reports.

The ignorant will believe that we're doing nothing more than writing
bad hagiographies for martyrs to the cause. I'm sure there are many
other newsgroups for that purpose--newsgroups whose martyrs prefer
more explosive exits from this world.

Every fatality post generates the same traffic, which falls into a few
basically recognizeable types:

1) Anti-car screeds. The motorist is ALWAYS in the wrong. ALL cars
must be melted down into [censored].

2) "I-told-you-so", which comes in several sub-variants:
2a) He should have been wearing a helmet.
2b) He shouldn't have been riding in the road/sidewalk (delete as
appropriate)
2c) He shouldn't have been on that road (and I know, I've DRIVEN
there)

3) Spurious appeals to statistical evidence

4) Statements of defiance.

I here submit my own version of number 4:

I'm sad that someone had to die on Con. Ave. The main avenues in the
District are wide, heavy, and probably sub-optimal cycle routes. But
then, I've ridden (and seen many other people ride) far busier (in
terms of total motor vehicle volume, or gross tonnage, or any other
way you want to slice it) roads in London--The Elephant & Castle
Roundabout at rush hour, say, or The Strand--and had no problems,
provided my bike behaves like the rest of vehicular traffic.

In the case in question, I don't have enough data to apportion blame.
People die in car wrecks all the time; it doesn't stop me or my
friends from driving. People die in plane crashes all the time; it
doesn't stop me from flying. People die all the time--it doesn't stop
me from living.

-Luigi

www.livejournal.com/users/ouij
Photos, Rants, Raves

Marlene Blanshay said:

I am not the same as motorists who think all cyclists are 'bad' and it's
ridiculous to lump me with those morons. The second cyclist showed
incredibly poor judgement. It turned out that the driver wasn't at fault, it
was the cyclist who went through a red light, not wearing a helmet, at night
on a boulevard which is dangerous at any hour.

Which morons?

Their idiotic behaviour--drunkenness and running the red light--not to
mention their lack of lights (I stay silent on the helmet)--is fatal.
I don't see too many people jumping up to defend drunk drivers who die
with their cars wrapped around trees, or who kill other people in the
process--their irresponsible behaviour brought down upon them the
consequences that were coming to them.

I'm all for solidarity, but I'm not for solidarity with idiots.

-Luigi

www.livejournal.com/users/ouij

On Sat, 31 Jul 2004 00:36:57 -0400, Luigi de Guzman <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

On Fri, 30 Jul 2004 20:00:31 -0400, Badger_South <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

You're of course correct, it's really a pedestrian fatality.

However we post bike-related fatalities not to show that biking is
dangerous, but to honor and note a fallen comrade; or at least that's why I
posted it.

I don't want to hear about fatalities here, nor do I want the google
to record nothing but fatality reports.

My mistake.

-B

I live in London UK now, but I lived in or around DC for a quarter of
a century, and frequently rode my bike though 14th and Constitution.
I'm sorry to hear of the fatality of course, but all this talk about
Constitution, or indeed 14 th St, being terribly dangerous sounds
like nonsense to me. It can't have changed that much since I left.

That said, here in left driving London a quarter of all cyclist
fataltities arise from left turning trucks. It's nearly always a
truck, never a car. This is in a country where left turn on red is
not legal.

The accidents get counted as the truck drivers fault, and they are
experimenting with ever more complicated mirror systems on trucks,
even TV monitors now. There's a new approach, too, a notice on the
back of the truck, "If you can't see me in my mirror, I can't see
you", which, of course, has to be true.

No matter whose fault the accidents get counted as, they are
trivially easy for cyclists to avoid, once they know of the problem.
Just stay out of the "coffin corner" as it's known here.
Fortunately, here in Britain there's no law about staying "as far
left as practicable" - I'm not sure DC has that law, either. Nor
does Britain have any law requiring you to stay in a bike lane if you
don't feel in the mood, though presumably 14th and Const' don't have
bike lanes.

Is it light at 5:50am in DC at the end of July?

Here is what Transport for London's leaflet on this accent type says:

"Why are Lorry drivers always Knocking Cyclists?"
---------------------------------------------------

* As a cyclist it's nice to think you are always in the right - but
have you ever considered that you might be in the wrong place? In
fact, you might be in the most difficult place for a lorry driver to
see you.

* 9 out 0f 10 drivers involved in a fatal collision with a cyclist
say they never saw them.

"Are you blind?"
---------------

* If a lorry driver hasn't seen you, it's probably because you have
moved into their blind spot when they weren't looking.

* There are blind spots on each side of the vehicle - if you are
cutting inside, or over-taking as it turns, you can be knocked off or
crushed.

"Look out!"
-----------

Many lorries need to pull out to the right before turning left - be
aware of what they might be about to do.

* Cycle lanes and advanced stop lines are there to help you - but
take care not to get trapped by a lorry as it turns.

* the simple advice is hold back - a lorry might be turning at any
corner. Never cut inside.

If you look at the other side of the leaflet, it says

"There are too many bloody cyclists on the road"
-------------------------------------------------

* More and more people are cycling in London, helping to reduce
congestion

* Every day, cyclists are involved in accidents - if it involves a
lorry, it is easy for the cyclist to be badly injured or killed.

* As a lorry driver, you know that you always try to give cyclists
space - but what can you do when you don't see them coming?

"Why didn't you look where you are going"
--------------------------------------------

*Cyclists are often on your nearside - in the cycle lane or moving
towards an advanced stop line.

* Many don't realise that, when they try to pass you, there is a
point where you cannot see them because they have entered your blind
spot.

* This often results in them cycling directly into your turning
path - with a potentially disastrous outcome.

"You better watch it"
---------------------

* The important thing is for you to indicate early, check your
mirrors, and keep checking as you turn - in this way you have the
best chance of seeing a cyclist before it's too late.

Jeremy Parker
London UK

Luigi de Guzman wrote:

.... an excellent post!

--
--------------------+
Frank Krygowski [To reply, remove rodent and vegetable dot com,
replace with cc.ysu dot edu]

Frank Krygowski said:

Luigi de Guzman wrote:

... an excellent post!

Guess we'll have to take your word for it.

Bill "if it was so good, why'd you snip it all?" S.

Luigi de Guzman said:

People die in car wrecks all the time; it doesn't stop me or my
friends from driving. People die in plane crashes all the time; it
doesn't stop me from flying. People die all the time--it doesn't stop
me from living.

Thank you. I was beginning to think I was the only human who lived through
life's daily little risks.

Austin

Luigi de Guzman wrote in part:

<< I don't want to hear about fatalities here, nor do I want the google
to record nothing but fatality reports. >>

Come to think of it, I don't even want to hear about bike-related accidents and
injuries, nagging knee pain, fit problems, greedy shops, loose bolts, ripped
shorts, flat tires, mysterious creaking, wrong-way riders, bonking, drivers who
yell and throw things, taco'd wheels, et cetera.

Robert
See no evil, hear no evil, speak no evil.

"Tom Keats" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

In article <[email hidden]>,

(R15757) said:

Come to think of it, I don't even want to hear about bike-related

accidents and

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

injuries, nagging knee pain, fit problems, greedy shops, loose bolts,

ripped

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

shorts, flat tires, mysterious creaking, wrong-way riders, bonking,

drivers who

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

yell and throw things, taco'd wheels, et cetera.

Robert
See no evil, hear no evil, speak no evil.

So ... does pineapple /really/ belong on pizza? ;-)

cheers,
Tom

And hey, how about those Red Sox? What is Ramirez batting now anyways?

In article <[email hidden]>,

(R15757) said:

Come to think of it, I don't even want to hear about bike-related accidents and
injuries, nagging knee pain, fit problems, greedy shops, loose bolts, ripped
shorts, flat tires, mysterious creaking, wrong-way riders, bonking, drivers who
yell and throw things, taco'd wheels, et cetera.

Robert
See no evil, hear no evil, speak no evil.

So ... does pineapple /really/ belong on pizza? ;-)

cheers,
Tom

--
-- Powered by FreeBSD
Above address is just a spam midden.
I'm really at: tkeats [curlicue] vcn [point] bc [point] ca

"Luigi de Guzman" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Marlene Blanshay said:

I am not the same as motorists who think all cyclists are 'bad' and it's
ridiculous to lump me with those morons. The second cyclist showed
incredibly poor judgement. It turned out that the driver wasn't at fault,

it

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

was the cyclist who went through a red light, not wearing a helmet, at

night

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

on a boulevard which is dangerous at any hour.

Which morons?

Their idiotic behaviour--drunkenness and running the red light--not to
mention their lack of lights (I stay silent on the helmet)--is fatal.
I don't see too many people jumping up to defend drunk drivers who die
with their cars wrapped around trees, or who kill other people in the
process--their irresponsible behaviour brought down upon them the
consequences that were coming to them.

I'm all for solidarity, but I'm not for solidarity with idiots.

-Luigi

I meant morons who think all cyclists are baaaad and are to blame for
accidents no matter what. Why would I think that? However, we are all
responsible for our own behavior. WHen I see roadies with no helmets, I
think hey, it;s your skull. But some cyclists, meaning casual cyclists,
probably think they aren't at risk if they're only going a few blocks.

I remember last year I saw the aftermath of a collision between a guy on a
bike and a roller blader, on a bike path. I'm surprised that doesn't happen
more often. The guy was lying there unconscious. He actually had a helmet
on, although it was an old beat up one. He was lying on his back and
probably smacked the back of his head. Howver, I am sure even the crummy
helmet was better than nothing. I didn't stick around for the ambulance but
I am pretty sure he wasn't dead or seriously injured. As for the roller
blader, she seemed okay.