Fascism

Bill Sornson said:

Hint: I never said it was visible or even discernable flicker. I have a
friend who's prone to migraines, and he said that sitting in the barber's
chair under CFLs gave him a bad headache. Others are reporting similar
issues.

Hmm. Sounds like the sum total of data is 1) your friend, and 2)
stuff you've heard. I'd like some evidence the "problem" is real, not
imaginary and not hearsay.

FWIW, if your friend gets migraines from CFLs and other flourescents,
he must be having them very, very frequently. I've noted that almost
all stores in my area are lit with one or the other. So are all the
hotel rooms I've used in the last several months. These companies are
doing this because the economic sense of it is absolutely obvious to
anyone with a working calculator.

While I can easily detect flicker in ordinary flourescents using a
trick similar to Chalo's, I can detect no flicker from the CFLs in our
house, and I've tried. I'm not sure why that is - I'd have expected
them to be driven at 60 Hz, but apparently they're not. It's possible,
I suppose, that some brands flicker and others do not.

Quoted message said:

You suggest that it's just their imaginations; I say why FORCE them to use
bulbs in their homes that they don't want and perhaps are making them ill.

So we can take steps toward avoiding another energy war. I've had one
nephew sent to that big sandbox, and I have one close friend still
stationed there. I know you feel no need to inconvenience yourself
over this war you love, but I feel differently.

- Frank Krygowski

Quoted message said:

So we can take steps toward avoiding another energy war. I've had one
nephew sent to that big sandbox, and I have one close friend still
stationed there. I know you feel no need to inconvenience yourself
over this war you love, but I feel differently.

Or ... we used to make sacrifices when our nation was at war.

Now we go to war so our nation doesn't have to sacrifice.

:-(

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

So we can take steps toward avoiding another energy war. I've had one
nephew sent to that big sandbox, and I have one close friend still
stationed there. I know you feel no need to inconvenience yourself
over this war you love, but I feel differently.

Or ... we used to make sacrifices when our nation was at war.

Now we go to war so our nation doesn't have to sacrifice.

:-(

Well said.

- Frank Krygowski

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I have a friend who's prone to migraines, and he said
that sitting in the barber's chair under CFLs gave him
a bad headache.

Sounds like the sum total of data is 1) your friend,
and 2) stuff you've heard. I'd like some evidence the
"problem" is real, not imaginary and not hearsay.

=v= This is the classic problem with relying on anecdotes.
Humans live in a multivariate environment, and it could be
one of a dozen other things going there that triggers the
migraine. OR it's psychosomatic. OR it's an oddly-shaped
but old-technology fluorescent light. OR ... I dunno. Like
I said, it's multivariate.

=v= If he wants to determine what's going on he could be part
of a case study. That way he could make a contribution to
what is known and considered medically valid. Just [censored]
to a friend who can't discuss these issues without invoking
brain-dead caricatures of Al Gore or otherwise being obnoxious
about it, ain't gonna help anybody.
<_Jym_>

Jym Dyer said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I have a friend who's prone to migraines, and he said
that sitting in the barber's chair under CFLs gave him
a bad headache.

Sounds like the sum total of data is 1) your friend,
and 2) stuff you've heard. I'd like some evidence the
"problem" is real, not imaginary and not hearsay.

I have no idea who wrote that, and the CONTEXT of what I (also unattributed)
wrote is missing. Hint: it was simply in answer to Chalo highlighting the
"flickering" aspect of CFLs.

I'll ask one last time: are the people who are reporting issues (eye
problems, migraines, epileptic seizures, etc.) with these lights all lying?
And that's not even mentioning the frigging chemicals in the damned things.

Quoted message said:

=v= This is the classic problem with relying on anecdotes.
Humans live in a multivariate environment, and it could be
one of a dozen other things going there that triggers the
migraine. OR it's psychosomatic. OR it's an oddly-shaped
but old-technology fluorescent light. OR ... I dunno. Like
I said, it's multivariate.

=v= If he wants to determine what's going on he could be part
of a case study. That way he could make a contribution to
what is known and considered medically valid. Just [censored]
to a friend who can't discuss these issues without invoking
brain-dead caricatures of Al Gore or otherwise being obnoxious
about it, ain't gonna help anybody.
<_Jym_>

Brain dead is not being able to post coherently. HTH

(BTW, it's not a "caricature" of Al Gore to say he flies around on a 1970s
era Gulfstream private jet. Or lives in a home that uses more energy in a
month than most use in over a year. Or produced a "documentary" with at
least NINE documented errors in it, as found by a British judge. Your
Google broken or somethin'?)

BS (out...again)

Bill Sornson said:

I'll ask one last time: are the people who are reporting issues (eye
problems, migraines, epileptic seizures, etc.) with these lights all lying?
And that's not even mentioning the frigging chemicals in the damned things.

Still finding it difficult to conduct a civil, rational discussion,
eh?

They don't need to be lying. I've seen nobody here accusing them of
that.

Similarly, nobody can speak to what is or is not causing their issues,
but ... since it does NOT seem to represent an incredibly common
issue, then exceptions should be viewed -- and dealt with -- as
exceptions.

But ... what POSSIBLE "gain" could there be in continually trying to
get somebody to say, "Yeah. They're lying"?

Are you that far back on your heels in this discussion?

Just curious.

Bill Sornson wrote:
<snip>

Quoted message said:

I have no idea who wrote that, and the CONTEXT of what I (also unattributed)
wrote is missing. Hint: it was simply in answer to Chalo highlighting the
"flickering" aspect of CFLs.

I'll ask one last time: are the people who are reporting issues (eye
problems, migraines, epileptic seizures, etc.) with these lights all lying?
And that's not even mentioning the frigging chemicals in the damned things.

<snip>

I've replaced nearly every bulb in my house with CFL's and I can report
no problems with my eyes, migraines, epileptic seizures, or any other
adverse health effects. I must be imagining my complete lack of
symptoms. ;-)

--

Paul D Oosterhout
I work for SAIC (but I don't speak for SAIC)

Paul O said:

I've replaced nearly every bulb in my house with CFL's and I can report
no problems with my eyes, migraines, epileptic seizures, or any other
adverse health effects. I must be imagining my complete lack of
symptoms. ;-)

You could just be lying ;-)

ps: your story matches mine, and I have battled multiple, complex
problems with my eyes for 40 years.

Paul O said:

Bill Sornson wrote:
<snip>

Quoted message said:

I have no idea who wrote that, and the CONTEXT of what I (also
unattributed) wrote is missing. Hint: it was simply in answer to
Chalo highlighting the "flickering" aspect of CFLs.

I'll ask one last time: are the people who are reporting issues (eye
problems, migraines, epileptic seizures, etc.) with these lights all
lying? And that's not even mentioning the frigging chemicals in the
damned things. <snip>

I've replaced nearly every bulb in my house with CFL's and I can
report no problems with my eyes, migraines, epileptic seizures, or
any other adverse health effects. I must be imagining my complete
lack of symptoms. ;-)

Same here, but then I'm not afflicted with such problems. Luckily, however,
I *can* read for comprehension.

One final time: are people who say they have problems with CFLs liars? Or
is it just possible that the bulbs do cause symptoms in some people?

I say let people buy what they want.

Sorry this is too complicated for you and others to grasp.

Bill "and then there's the MERCURY..." S.

Bill Sornson said:

Paul O said:

I've replaced nearly every bulb in my house with CFL's and I can
report no problems with my eyes, migraines, epileptic seizures, or
any other adverse health effects. I must be imagining my complete
lack of symptoms. ;-)

Same here, but then I'm not afflicted with such problems. Luckily, however,
I *can* read for comprehension.

:-)

If that were true, Bill, you wouldn't still be complaining about
people trimming their responses in a threaded discussion. We've
explained over and over how you can use a threaded newsreader, but you
can't seem to comprehend!

Quoted message said:

One final time: are people who say they have problems with CFLs liars? Or
is it just possible that the bulbs do cause symptoms in some people?

Personally, I believe they are reacting psychosomatically. That's not
the same as lying. But it's possible they are, like you, so opposed
to anything advocated by recent Nobel Prize winners that they do,
indeed, lie.

However, if it's a serious problem for a significant number of people,
I'm sure you'll prove it with hard data. Right? ;-)

Quoted message said:

I say let people buy what they want.

Does that include car mufflers so loud they rattle your windows from a
block away? Or is there a chance we should consider the good of
society as well as the freedom to buy what they want?

Quoted message said:

Sorry this is too complicated for you and others to grasp.

Bill "and then there's the MERCURY..." S.

Aren't Bill's thought processes cute? ;-)

- Frank Krygowski

Quoted message said:

Aren't Bill's thought processes cute? ;-)

The glitter rubs off awfully quickly.....

Moron Bulbs:

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/01/07/weekinreview/07hamilton.html?_r=1&oref=slogin

(Pardon the /biased/ source!)

Quoted message said:

I *can* read for comprehension.

One final time: are people who say they have problems with
CFLs liars?

=v= If you can read for comprehension, then you already have
your answer. Problem solved.

Quoted message said:

Bill "and then there's the MERCURY..." S.

=v= Also answered, at least for those who know how to read.
<_Jym_>

Bill Sornson said:

Moron Bulbs:

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/01/07/weekinreview/07hamilton.html?_r=1&o...

The author's complaints about color rendering are valid, but only for
the common 2700K color temperature versions. Incandescent bulbs have
their unpleasantly yellow color because of the limitations of their
materials, not because it's a good color for illumination. When there
is any amount of daylight or skylight present to compare to, they look
particularly miserable. Yet most CFLs are designed to mimic that
crappy light, and some of them don't even do a particularly good job
of it.

Just like I refuse to use incandescent lights for illumination in my
house, I refuse to use CFLs that are a similar color. Using CFLs
means not having to tolerate yellow indoor lighting anymore. After
some experimentation, I have settled on 3500K bulbs for my living
areas and 5500K bulbs for work areas. 3500K light is still warm
enough to look like home rather than a commercial setting-- and warm
enough that my wife doesn't care about the difference-- but its color
rendering is worlds better than incandescent-color bulbs. A given
amount of light with 3500K color seems brighter than an equal amount
with 2700K color. It's not just more light for less power compared to
incandescent, it's better light.

And to address another point made in the article-- no, they don't
dim. But I only ever dimmed my lights to save energy, and CFLs are
_much_ better for that. If I want less light for some reason, I just
use a smaller bulb. Usually I use the largest bulb I can physically
accommodate in the fixture I want to put it in.

The electrical component of my utility bill comes to less than $20 any
month I don't run the air conditioning. Last month it was $12 for
metered power plus a $6 customer fee.

Chalo

Chalo said:

And to address another point made in the article-- no, they don't
dim. But I only ever dimmed my lights to save energy, and CFLs are
_much_ better for that. If I want less light for some reason, I just
use a smaller bulb. Usually I use the largest bulb I can physically
accommodate in the fixture I want to put it in.

No sarcasm here, but ... /dimmable/ CFL's dim.

I use a pair of them in the overhead bedroom fixture ... in one of the
warmer temperature varieties. When dimmed, they give quite a nice
warm glow, without any humming, flickering, or noise whatsoever.

Most lighting stores/big-box home improvement stores DO carry dimmable
compact fluorescents. You just have to ask.

Here's a start:

http://www.thegreenguide.com/blog/freshfinds/340

Jym Dyer said:

Quoted message said:

I *can* read for comprehension.

One final time: are people who say they have problems with
CFLs liars?

=v= If you can read for comprehension, then you already have
your answer. Problem solved.

Bzzt. Wrong. Saying that the lights don't flicker is not an answer to my
question.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Bill "and then there's the MERCURY..." S.

=v= Also answered, at least for those who know how to read.
<_Jym_>

Hint: deleting something in one's reply is not an answer.

One last question: why can't you quote and attribute coherently in your
posts? Feel free to snip this and then say you answered it...

Quoted message said:

Chalo said:

And to address another point made in the article-- no, they don't
dim. But I only ever dimmed my lights to save energy, and CFLs are
_much_ better for that. If I want less light for some reason, I just
use a smaller bulb. Usually I use the largest bulb I can physically
accommodate in the fixture I want to put it in.

No sarcasm here, but ... /dimmable/ CFL's dim.

I use a pair of them in the overhead bedroom fixture ... in one of the
warmer temperature varieties. When dimmed, they give quite a nice
warm glow, without any humming, flickering, or noise whatsoever.

I've had a couple of them, but all the dimmable CFLs I've ever found
were of the yellow 2700K color-- and rather expensive to boot. I used
them in my bedroom, where the color was inoffensive-- but I found that
I hardly ever dimmed them. I have established that for my own use,
improved color temperature is a much more significant benefit than the
ability to operate on a dimmer.

Chalo