Falling off the pace - Training Advice

Not being a coach or student of phisiolofy, it sounds to me like it could possibly be a hydration issue.

L

Lonnie Utah said:

Not being a coach or student of phisiolofy, it sounds to me like it could possibly be a hydration issue.

L

I do drink 1 large size water bottle and hour..?? Maybe it should be gatorade.

My first thought is that you just haven't spent enough time per week on the bike -- 1000km total isn't very much. With the climbing and pulling segments, it sounds as though you're doing somewhat more than a recovery ride pace. Even though your average HR may not be very high, the harder segments begin to take their toll if you don't have many hours in the saddle. With your running schedule for your marathon training, it may be difficult to ride more. You know, hitting the wall on a long ride doesn't happen gradually -- it comes out of the blue and that's it.

Dijital said:

I have tried stopping, drinking some Gatorade, eating a snickers bar and a gel pack, but it doesn't seem to energize me again. No matter what I do, I just can't push it any more that day

Breaking down after 2+ hours at what sounds like a fairly intense effort sounds to me like running out of glycogen stores, ie bonking. You mention eating a snickers bar or a gel pack and drinking gatorade, but when? If you wait until you're feeling the effects of no glycogen and low blood sugar, it's WAAAAY too late. For me, if I'm going to be riding longer than two hours, I eat something every 1/2 hour starting just before the ride begins. Most guys, I think, use gel packs or sports drinks which contain carbohydrate. For me it's granola bars and twizzlers. I think I may switch to something easier, though, because chewing and swallowing while breathing hard is really uncomfortable. Bottom line is you need to be consuming carbohydrate continuously from the start at something like 200 Cal per hour or so to maintain your energy level much beyond about 2 hours.

RapDaddyo said:

You know, hitting the wall on a long ride doesn't happen gradually -- it comes out of the blue and that's it.

Hey Rap, thats kinda what it feels like. It comes on so fast and I have no warning. I NEVER have that happen when I run. Even during races. Can one recover from bonking quickly by eating and drinking or is that it for the day?

Dijital said:

Hey Rap, thats kinda what it feels like. It comes on so fast and I have no warning. I NEVER have that happen when I run. Even during races. Can one recover from bonking quickly by eating and drinking or is that it for the day?

Well, you can limp in, but I don't think you're going to do much high intensity work for the rest of the ride. You might get some help from electrolyte replacement. I carry ~6 electrolyte tablets (Hammer's Endurolytes) in my jersey and take ~2/hour after the first hour of a long ride. I just take them with water. What I do when I've run out of gas is go to my gravity drop pedaling stroke. My leg weight alone is about 25-30 lbs at the 3 o'clock position on the downstroke. If I do no pushing at all but just lift each leg to the top of the stroke and let it drop from gravity alone, that's good for about 100 watts of power and ~16mph on the flat. Granted, 100w won't maintain sufficient bike momentum on a climb, so I end up having to do some pushing. But, if I get my upper body in a very relaxed position, this stroke is really no more effort than walking. That's why I always tell a first time century rider to pick a course that's as flat as possible in the last 30 miles so that if they hit the wall they can limp in with this kind of stroke. I think the reason it doesn't happen when you run is simply that you've got more running miles. Cycling draws on different parts of your system. If you need to be able to recover during an event (e.g., mass start races), do intervals with short recoveries at the upper end of your recovery range. For example, when I do intervals at, say 300w, I recover at ~190w rather than dropping way down to, say, 125w-150w. That's because in a race situation I'd be able to maintain a reasonable pace drafting at 190w, but I'd be dropped at 125w-150w.

My 2 cents (what works for me, and what others have said) is up the Gatorade intake. For rides over 30 miles (or Two Hours) I shoot for taking in 20 calories per miles as I go. I probably burn up more like +30 calories per mile, so this slows down the depletion. A 50-50 mix of Gatorade and water provides about 100 calories per quart or liter. Two Fig Newtons also provide 100 calories. So, I drink one 50-50 quart and eat two Fig Newtons every ten miles, generally drinking as I go and eating at the 10 mile marks. Gatorade and Fig Newtons are what I like, but there are all kinds of sport drinks, bananas, granola/cereal bars...but the stuff has to be sugary (highly glycemic).

Also, if you go anaerobic it can be impossible to recover, stay under 170 bpm by backing off a bit on the hills and in the wind.

The way to get stronger is simply consistent riding, and it doesn't have to be hours a day. I ride 5 days a week, 1 long day, 1 hard day, 3 regular days. Long=3+hours zone 2-3, Hard=1 hour zone 4, Regular=1 hour or so zone 3-2. At my age I didn't think it was possible, but slow and steady improvement over the course of a year adds up to a lot more than you would imagine. So, although you will notice improvement in six weeks that is only the tip of the iceberg!

Dijital said:

[font=Times New Roman][font=Times New Roman]The Question...[/font]

[font=Times New Roman]I find I can push a good pace with the group. I usually climb the hills faster than most and usually all, and often am at the front pulling. I find after around 2:15 on the road, that I start to fade quickly. [/font]

[font=Times New Roman]All of a sudden I loose the ability to keep up to the group, even when I am on some ones wheel and I have to use my granny gear on the hills. I just have no more juice in my legs.[/font]

[font=Times New Roman]I have tried stopping, drinking some Gatorade, eating a snickers bar and a gel pack, but it doesn't seem to energize me again. No matter what I do, I just can't push it any more that day.[/font]

[font=Times New Roman]A typical ride like that would be[/font]

[font=Times New Roman]82km in 3 hours, AVG Speed 27.3 kph at 152 bpm HR. [/font]

[font=Times New Roman](During the ride I often have a HR of 170-180 climbing some larger hills and pulling in the wind.)[/font]

[font=Times New Roman]I have only ridden about 1000 KM so far since I have been riding.[/font]
[font=Times New Roman][/font]
[font=Times New Roman]1. Is this normal for a newbie who is fairly accustomed to 3+hour runs?[/font]

[font=Times New Roman]2. What type of training should I do to increase my ability to keep that pace longer? I am getting tired of being dropped in the last 10km of the ride.[/font]

[font=Times New Roman]3. What's going on? Is it a food problem (glycogen), am I riding too long in my lactate threshold.[/font]

[font=Times New Roman]Any help is appreciated. I don't want to waste my training time. Do you have suggestions? Maybe a book recommendation? Would you seek a coach?[/font]

[/font]
[font=Times New Roman]The Background...[/font]

[font=Times New Roman]My Maximum HR is around 190[/font]

[font=Times New Roman]My training zones look like this[/font]

[font=Times New Roman]ZONE Max HR(%) Heart Rates [/font]

[font=Times New Roman]1 65% 122 0 Recovery[/font]

[font=Times New Roman]2 66% ↔ 72% 124 ↔ 135 Basic endurance [/font]

[font=Times New Roman]3 73% ↔ 79% 137 ↔ 149 Higher-level aerobic [/font]

[font=Times New Roman]4 85% ↔ 90% 160 ↔ 169 Anerobic threshold work [/font]

[font=Times New Roman]5 91% ↔ 100% 171 ↔ 188 Sprint and anaerobic[/font]

[font=Times New Roman]I run a fair amount at about 4 times a week. Three runs at 40-50 minutes each, and then a long run which is at 16km this week and ramping up from there for a fall Marathon.[/font]

[font=Times New Roman]I ran my first Marathon in May of this year in 4:48. I am a slow runner due to repeating injuries, but I still really enjoy it. [/font]

[font=Times New Roman]I bought a Trek 1500 in February and started riding with local cycling groups in April. Due to Marathon training, I sometimes only complete the one ride. Sometimes I stick in another ride and try to make it an hour long.[/font]

[font=Times New Roman]I run in zone 2 and sometimes 3. [/font]

Believe what's going on is called "specificity of training" in my old coaching book. Have seen the same pattern you describe with riders here coming into cycling from running. You have a lot of core aerobic fitness, and great legs for running. But it takes many thousands of miles to build the specific muscles, capillaries and veins needed to cycle efficiently. Actually, with only 1000 km (620 miles) of riding in your legs, sounds like you're doing fine. Just relax and enjoy a moderate pace as you put in the miles on the bike and the adaptation will happen.

It doesn't matter how long you can run at high HR, without the new CV and muscle adaptations you need for cycling, you're exhausting your cycling leg muscles. Without a good blood/oxygen supply in and out, the cycling muscles are forced to work in the inefficient anaerobic mode. Once the cells run out of stored glycogen, the legs are toast, even though your heart/lungs and overall energy seems fine.

You can help yourself hang with the group by conserving energy and avoiding power and HR spikes as much as possible early in the ride. Keep the pace aerobic, and stay away from your zone 4 & 5 efforts until the last 10 K of the ride.

Heard today on the TdF broadcast that Lance trains about 30,000 KM a year in preparation for the Tour....don't know if that makes you feel any better.

Thanks guys!

I was out for quite a few rides this past week. I tried to stick to a HR in the 125-140 range for most of them and found that I wasn't really riding any slower over the entire ride and my I had loads of energy at 2+ hours.

I did find that I was fighting to keep my HR below 140 at 2:15 on, but I think it is managable. I believe that I just need more leg conditioning like you mention DHK.

Also, I have taken to liberal gatorade drinking and power gel consumption. I always hate taking this stuff due to the calories. I can afford to loose 10-15 pounds. The gatorade definately helps keep me strong longer.

Thanks again all!