Facts we should *not* consider.

Quoted message said:

Facts that meat consumers want to disregard:
1.The meat industry provides life for the billions of animals who are killed so we can eat them.

Just out of curiosity, has anyone *ever* bought this argument, David?

--swamp

you are full of vegan baloney!

first of all eating vegan DOES help animals because it decreases demand for meat.

second, vegan is not just an eating habit. it is a way of life. many vegans don't just refrain from
eating meat, they also contribute to organizations such as Farm Sanctuary or PETA, that have many
programs that directly affect the welfare of animals.

now, i have to take particular issue with your portrayal of the meat industry providing a good life
for many animals. That simply is NOT true. The vast majority of animals raised for meat live
HORRIBLE lives. They are confined to very small areas, pumped with hormones, body parts removed, and
killed in very painful and inhumane ways. Do you know how a beef cattle is killed? Look it up, it's
disgusting. I know, I live in farm country and I see it every day. Even dairy cows are often
confined to indoor barns and never get to roam. I drive by a dairy farm almost every day, that is
basically a huge metal building full of cows that can't even turn around. I've never seen them let
outside in years.

your #7 is outrageous. what exactly are you thinking of? A vegetable crop that kills more animals
than meat?

you should get your facts straight before you state them as "facts".

It sounds to me like you are just another meat eater trying to justify your cruel habit. Virtually
all your statements are completely false. If you do some research, read some books, you'll get the
real facts. But then I suppose you'll turn on your blinders and then start talking about how
vegetables feel just as much pain when they are killed so there's no reason to be vegetarian. I've
actually heard that one before.

Look, if you want to eat meat, go ahead and do it. No one is stopping you. Don't try to tell
vegetarians that their lifestyle is wrong, though. Especially if you are going to make your argument
is completely untrue.

Gary

Quoted message said:

It appears that in order to think of things in the correct and ethically superior way, some
people believe we should disregard certain facts. Overall it appears to me that veg*ns want to
disregard more facts than meat consumers, but maybe I'm wrong about that. The following are
lists of facts that meat eaters want to disregard, and that veg*ns want to disregard. If you
have more to add, please do so.

Facts that meat consumers want to disregard:
1.The meat industry provides life for the billions of animals who are killed so we can eat them.

Facts that veg*ns want to disregard:
1.The meat industry provides life for the billions of animals who are killed so we can eat them.
2. Some of the animals raised for food have decent lives.
3. Veg*nism does nothing to provide decent lives for farm animals.
4. Veg*nism does nothing to help or provide more life for any animals.
5. People can contribute to decent lives for farm animals, but they can't do it by being veg*n.
6. Veg*ns contribute to most of the same animal deaths that everyone else does by their use of
wood, paper, roads, buildings, electricity, things that contain animal by-products, and the
veggies they eat.
7. Some types of meat involve fewer animal deaths than some types of veggies.
8. Some types of meat involve less animal suffering than some types of veggies.

They're not listening to you. Don't worry aobut it - it just means more meat for us.
--
Gene Seibel
Hangar 131 - pad39a.complane.htmlOpen ↗
Because I fly, I envy no one.

Quoted message said:

It appears that in order to think of things in the correct and ethically
superior way, some people believe we should disregard certain facts.
Overall it appears to me that veg*ns want to disregard more facts than
meat consumers, but maybe I'm wrong about that.

Quoted message said:

It appears that in order to think of things in the correct and ethically superior way, some
people believe we should disregard certain facts. Overall it appears to me that veg*ns want to
disregard more facts than meat consumers, but maybe I'm wrong about that. The following are
lists of facts that meat eaters want to disregard, and that veg*ns want to disregard. If you
have more to add, please do so.

Facts that meat consumers want to disregard:
1.The meat industry provides life for the billions of animals who are killed so we can eat them.

Wow, like some people might have told you already, that really makes no sense. Life? They could have
been alive even if noone was to torture them (was that really a surprise?).

If say, someone bred YOU, mr dh_ld, to be slaughtered, and meanwhile, kept you in barely habitable
conditions, amputated you, and so forth, maybe you would withdraw your 'provides *life*' comment.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

3. Veg*nism does nothing to provide decent lives for farm animals.

Well the point is, they wouldn't need to be farmed in the first place if noones eating them

Quoted message said:

4. Veg*nism does nothing to help or provide more life for any animals.

Well, for starters, by *not* eating them, they are more free to live their own live, whether that be
to frolick in the meadows, forests or natural habitats, or to just have the right to do what they
want, without being captive, tortured, and eventually, eaten.

Quoted message said:

6. Veg*ns contribute to most of the same animal deaths that everyone else does by their use of
wood, paper, roads, buildings, electricity, things that contain animal by-products, and the
veggies they eat.

Huh? Wood is an animal by product ? Wow, that's something that's never taught in science! Or in
fact, anywhere! Have you had your head checked recently?

Quoted message said:

7. Some types of meat involve fewer animal deaths than some types of veggies.

Ok, what died for a veggie? This makes no sense, unless you are employing very strange and dangerous
farming methods.

Quoted message said:

8. Some types of meat involve less animal suffering than some types of veggies.

Ah, lets give up on this guy. He doesn't seem to get the difference between meat and vegetables,
maybe in his world some mutant vege will eat him up. :S

Quoted message said:

It appears that in order to think of things in the correct and ethically superior way, some
people believe we should disregard certain facts.

people to "consider", and it is so meaningless it barely deserves to be called a "fact".

that farm animals' "getting to experience life" is morally important and good, and that THEREFORE,
"vegans" who believe we ought not eat meat, and who therefore want farm animals to become extinct,
are doing great evil.

"billions of farm animals" only "get to experience life" because they are purpose-bred. No one else,

explain why it ought to be seen as having any importance.

It doesn't.

swamp said:

Quoted message said:

Facts that meat consumers want to disregard:
1.The meat industry provides life for the billions of animals who are killed so we can eat them.

Just out of curiosity, has anyone *ever* bought this argument, David?

--swamp

I have mentioned it to quite a few people in face to face conversations, and have *never* had
anyone attach a bunch of extra junk to it about a right to life for unconceived hypothetical
potential future animals, like the Gonad and some of his veg*n buddies do. They have always
agreed that raising animals for food provides billions of them with life, since it would be
absurd to disagree. As for whether or not providing them with life is an acceptable trade off
for taking it later, no one has ever had a problem with it. There has certainly never been
anyone who felt that we should *disregard* that aspect of the situation, and when I tell people
about the responses I get in these ngs, they feel that people making them are the ones who don't
think of things realistically. No offence to you swamp, and no offence was intended when I
mentioned it before, but the objections you presented to it were for the most part if not
entirely arguments that veg*ns would use. Some of them I suppose I would agree with to some
extent, and others I wouldn't. I've been wondering ever since how many of them you agreed with
and how many you didn't, but we never got down to details like that so I still don't know which
are objections that you agree with and which are not. I might still have a list of them if you'd
care to go through it and say which you go along with and which you don't.

When I mention this aspect of the situation to people in person, it is met with a completely
different reaction than it is in these ngs. Why not try it yourself with a few people and see
what their reaction is, just out of curiosity. Please let me know how it turns out if you give
it a go. You could just tell them that some moron you've seen online is going around saying that
billions of animals are not simply "killed" as "ARAs" want us to perceive the situation, but
that those same billions of animals only get any life at all because people raise them for food,
and see what their reaction is.

Gary Beckwith said:

you are full of vegan baloney!

first of all eating vegan DOES help animals because it decreases demand for meat.

Which animals does it help, and how does it help them?

Quoted message said:

second, vegan is not just an eating habit. it is a way of life. many vegans don't just refrain from
eating meat, they also contribute to organizations such as Farm Sanctuary or PETA, that have many
programs that directly affect the welfare of animals.

Veg*nism itself does nothing to help animals, regardless of what other things a person does.

Quoted message said:

now, i have to take particular issue with your portrayal of the meat industry providing a good life
for many animals. That simply is NOT true. The vast majority of animals raised for meat live
HORRIBLE lives. They are confined to very small areas, pumped with hormones, body parts removed,
and killed in very painful and inhumane ways. Do you know how a beef cattle is killed? Look it up,
it's disgusting. I know, I live in farm country and I see it every day. Even dairy cows are often
confined to indoor barns and never get to roam. I drive by a dairy farm almost every day, that is
basically a huge metal building full of cows that can't even turn around. I've never seen them let
outside in years.

Some of them have decent lives and some of them don't. If you think they all have HORRIBLE lives
then you're being no more realistic about it than someone who thinks they all have decent lives.

Quoted message said:

your #7 is outrageous. what exactly are you thinking of? A vegetable crop that kills more animals
than meat?

From the life and death of a grass raised steer people can get over 500 servings of beef. A few
meals of tofu are likely to involve more deaths than 500 meals from grass raised beef. From the
life and death of a grass raised dairy cow people can get thousands of dairy servings. A few
servings of rice milk are likely to involve more deaths than a thousand servings of grass
raised cow milk.

Quoted message said:

you should get your facts straight before you state them as "facts".

It sounds to me like you are just another meat eater trying to justify your cruel habit. Virtually
all your statements are completely false.

They are all true, as was the main point which is that there are quite a few significan facts
that you veg*ns do *not* want people to consider. That's because you care more about promoting
veg*nism than you do about human influence on animals.

Quoted message said:

If you do some research, read some books, you'll get the real facts. But then I suppose you'll turn
on your blinders and then start talking about how vegetables feel just as much pain when they are
killed so there's no reason to be vegetarian. I've actually heard that one before.

Look, if you want to eat meat, go ahead and do it. No one is stopping you. Don't try to tell
vegetarians that their lifestyle is wrong, though. Especially if you are going to make your
argument is completely untrue.

Gary

Quoted message said:

It appears that in order to think of things in the correct and ethically superior way, some
people believe we should disregard certain facts. Overall it appears to me that veg*ns want
to disregard more facts than meat consumers, but maybe I'm wrong about that. The following
are lists of facts that meat eaters want to disregard, and that veg*ns want to disregard. If
you have more to add, please do so.

Facts that meat consumers want to disregard:
1.The meat industry provides life for the billions of animals who are killed so we can eat them.

Facts that veg*ns want to disregard:
1.The meat industry provides life for the billions of animals who are killed so we can eat them.
2. Some of the animals raised for food have decent lives.
3. Veg*nism does nothing to provide decent lives for farm animals.
4. Veg*nism does nothing to help or provide more life for any animals.
5. People can contribute to decent lives for farm animals, but they can't do it by being veg*n.
6. Veg*ns contribute to most of the same animal deaths that everyone else does by their use of
wood, paper, roads, buildings, electricity, things that contain animal by-products, and the
veggies they eat.
7. Some types of meat involve fewer animal deaths than some types of veggies.
8. Some types of meat involve less animal suffering than some types of veggies.

Gary Beckwith said:

you are full of vegan baloney!

first of all eating vegan DOES help animals because it decreases demand for meat.

How does that help any currently living farm animals?

Quoted message said:

second, vegan is not just an eating habit. it is a way of life. many vegans don't just refrain
from eating meat, they also contribute to organizations such as Farm Sanctuary or PETA, that have
many programs that directly affect the welfare of animals.

But a meat eater who is concerned with animal welfare could do the same thing, and undoubtedly there
are "vegans" who aren't members of any such organizations. Being "vegan" has nothing to do with it.

Quoted message said:

now, i have to take particular issue with your portrayal of the meat industry providing a good
life for many animals. That simply is NOT true. The vast majority of animals raised for meat live
HORRIBLE lives. They are confined to very small areas, pumped with hormones, body parts removed,
and killed in very painful and inhumane ways.

Prove any of this. Get busy.

Quoted message said:

Do you know how a beef cattle is killed? Look it up, it's disgusting. I know, I live in farm
country and I see it every day.

Beef cattle are not slaughtered in farm country. Stop lying.

Quoted message said:

Even dairy cows are often confined to indoor barns and never get to roam. I drive by a dairy farm
almost every day, that is basically a huge metal building full of cows that can't even turn
around. I've never seen them let outside in years.

You've never been inside the building, either, so you don't know what you're talking about.

Quoted message said:

your #7 is outrageous. what exactly are you thinking of? A vegetable crop that kills more animals
than meat?

Fields are disced, and when the crops are harvested, heavy machinery again drives through the
fields, killing animals.

Quoted message said:

you should get your facts straight before you state them as "facts".

It sounds to me like you are just another meat eater trying to justify your cruel habit.

You're right about that particular poster, David

the points he raises are correct and serve to disprove "vegan" claims. In particular, his claims
about animals being killed in the course of producing vegetables are correct.

claim about how raising meat animals "provides them with life". It is trivially true, but it is not
a reason to raise them, and he is the only loon who thinks it is.

Quoted message said:

Virtually all your statements are completely false.

No, quite a lot of them are true.

Quoted message said:

If you do some research, read some books, you'll get the real facts.

It's obvious to one and all that you do not practice what you preach.

Quoted message said:

But then I suppose you'll turn on your blinders and then start talking about how vegetables feel
just as much pain when they are killed so there's no reason to be vegetarian. I've actually heard
that one before.

Look, if you want to eat meat, go ahead and do it. No one is stopping you. Don't try to tell
vegetarians that their lifestyle is wrong, though.

If "vegans" believe they are making a legitimate ethical choice by not eating meat and other animal
products in order not to cause animal suffering, their lifestyle IS wrong and bogus and based on a
logical fallacy. "vegans" cause massive animal suffering with their "lifestyle"; they just don't eat
the dead animals.

Quoted message said:

Especially if you are going to make your argument is completely untrue.

That is not a proper English sentence.

Gary Beckwith said:

you are full of vegan baloney!

first of all eating vegan DOES help animals because it decreases demand for meat.

No, it doesn't. Vegans constitute a very tiny minority, at least in the developed nations of the
world, and their dietary habits have negligible influence on the lives of farm animals. What would
improve the quality of farm animals is if you were to consume animals raised organically and in
humane conditions. Such operations do exist. The fact that you have chosen to play an either-or game
rather than support humane ranching does nothing to help the plight of any animal.

Quoted message said:

second, vegan is not just an eating habit.

No [censored], Sherlock. It is a radical political act.

Quoted message said:

it is a way of life.

Yes, a sheltered and peculiar act of self-marginalization. Such actions become a "way of life"
particularly when one ostracizes societal norms and puts oneself on the fringe. VeganISM is a
subculture.

Quoted message said:

many vegans don't just refrain from eating meat, they also contribute to organizations such as
Farm Sanctuary or PETA,

This doesn't make it a way of life. Others, who are not vegan, are free to support animal welfare
programs and agencies -- which, incidentally, are not concerns of PETA (Peta is for animal rights,
not welfare).

Quoted message said:

that have many programs that directly affect the welfare of animals.

Veganism has nothing to do with the welfare of animals and everything to do with an anti-capitalist
political philosophy which has been rejected in nearly every nation where it's been tried. The
exceptions maintain their anti-capitalism by force, not by popular choice.

Quoted message said:

now, i have to take particular issue with your portrayal of the meat industry providing a good
life for many animals.

Why?

Quoted message said:

That simply is NOT true.

Actually, it IS true. Animals with economic value are treated better than animals with no economic
value. You ignore this point when shocking yourself and friends with PETA propaganda pamphlets, but
visit a farm for yourself and see how animals are treated. Sick animals don't gain weight, they lose
weight; sick animals don't bring more revenue, they drain revenue; sick animals do not save ranchers
money, they lose ranchers money.

Quoted message said:

The vast majority of animals raised for meat live HORRIBLE lives.

Care to prove that wild accusation?

Quoted message said:

They are confined to very small areas,

Even veal calves, long the poster-animals of benighted zealots like yourself, are not kept in crates
in the US. "The vast majority of animals raised for meat" in fact have sufficient range to move.
Confinement is the exception, though it does have some merit: it prevents disease in younger
animals, injuries from aggressive or territorial animals, etc. I realize in some parts of the
country the scale of farming requires intensive methods including confinement; this, though, is
usually a function of restricted land-use and economies of scale.

Quoted message said:

pumped with hormones,

Do you have any information from agencies not opposed to ranching/farming to support this?

Quoted message said:

body parts removed,

Evidence from sources not polluted with the kind of partisanship of Peta or other activist groups?
If it's wrong to castrate bull calves, do you promote spaying and neutering of dogs and cats?

Quoted message said:

and killed in very painful and inhumane ways.

Do you have any direct evidence of this? I'm from a ranching family, and I've slaughtered more than
my share of steers. It was neither inhumane nor painful for any animal.

<snip>

Quoted message said:

I know, I live in farm country and I see it every day.

You do not know, and you probably live in the suburbs if you live near any "farm country." Cattle
aren't slaughtered out in the pasture, nitwit. USDA makes sure of that.

Quoted message said:

Even dairy cows are often confined to indoor barns and never get to roam.

Some dairy cattle are confined, MOST are not. The reasons can be manifold, but most cattle roam
pastures as long as there's sufficient forage for grazing.

Quoted message said:

I drive by a dairy farm almost every day, that is basically a huge metal building full of cows
that can't even turn around. I've never seen them let outside in years.

How do you know they cannot turn around? Have you ever gone inside the "huge metal building"?

Quoted message said:

your #7 is outrageous. what exactly are you thinking of? A vegetable crop that kills more animals
than meat?

Yes. Pesticides, herbicides, farm machinery, etc. It all takes a toll on animals -- a heavy toll in
death and dismemberment. Davey's seventh point is correct.

Quoted message said:

you should get your facts straight before you state them as "facts".

So should you, Einstein.

Quoted message said:

It sounds to me like you are just another meat eater trying to justify your cruel habit. Virtually
all your statements are completely false.

Davey isn't exactly the sharpest tool in the shed, but in this case he's correct.

Quoted message said:

If you do some research, read some books, you'll get the real facts.

If you do some research rather than reading propaganda from groups like Peta, maybe you'll get the
real facts.

Quoted message said:

But then I suppose you'll turn on your blinders and then start talking about how vegetables feel
just as much pain when they are killed so there's no reason to be vegetarian. I've actually heard
that one before.

No, he'll keep on about animals and life. He doesn't alter his posts one bit. As for wearing
blinders, what's your excuse, country boy?

Quoted message said:

Look, if you want to eat meat, go ahead and do it. No one is stopping you.

Groups you support are aligned with the sole purpose of making it harder for some people to eat what
they want. Stop supporting anti-meat organizations if you're so libertarian. Otherwise, stop whining
when others clear up your misunderstandings about ranching and animal welfare.

Quoted message said:

Don't try to tell vegetarians that their lifestyle is wrong, though.

It's a free country and he can do that if he wants.

Quoted message said:

Especially if you are going to make your argument is completely untrue.

Especially if you're going to write bad sentences. Ick.

"Gary Beckwith" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

you are full of vegan baloney!

first of all eating vegan DOES help animals because it decreases demand for meat.

=======================
And increases the demand for veggies that can cause even more animals to die. Why is it that only
the big moo-eyed cows count toward all this vegan 'saving'?

Quoted message said:

second, vegan is not just an eating habit. it is a way of life.

======================
Which is not being followed by *ANY* so-called vegan here on usenet.

many

Quoted message said:

vegans don't just refrain from eating meat, they also contribute to organizations such as Farm
Sanctuary or PETA, that have many programs that directly affect the welfare of animals.

================
You do realize don't you that PeTA(the 'e' is lower case in their logo for a reason) kills more
animals than it saves once they get their bloody hands on them don't you?

Quoted message said:

now, i have to take particular issue with your portrayal of the meat industry providing a good
life for many animals. That simply is NOT true. The vast majority of animals raised for meat live
HORRIBLE lives. They are confined to very small areas, pumped with hormones, body parts removed,
and killed in very painful and inhumane ways. Do you know how a beef cattle is killed? Look it up,
it's disgusting.

=====================
It's killed in a far more humane fashion than the animals that die to provide you with your cheap,
conveninet veggies, hypocrite. Have you seen what poisons do to an animals gut over the course of a
few days, while they die a slow painful death?

I know,

Quoted message said:

I live in farm country and I see it every day. Even dairy cows are often confined to indoor barns
and never get to roam. I drive by a dairy farm almost every day, that is basically a huge metal
building full of cows that can't even turn around. I've never seen them let outside in years.

your #7 is outrageous. what exactly are you thinking of? A vegetable crop that kills more animals
than meat?

====================
Yes, exactly. Look it up, killer. Plowing, spraying, harvesting, all can cause death and suffering
to animals. Some crops even more so than others. Plus, your crops provide abundant cover and easy
food, allowing the populations of many animals to explode over the summer. Then what happens once
these numbers are at their peak? You take away all the food and cover, leaving the animals to
suffer from starvation and predation. Face it, crop production is a killing proposition. And, that
doesn't even include all the petro-chemical input for the production, processing, and
transportation of your crops.

Quoted message said:

you should get your facts straight before you state them as "facts".

==================
I suggest you get your's lined up first before you look even more stupid than you already do.

Quoted message said:

It sounds to me like you are just another meat eater trying to justify your cruel habit.

=================
No need. We accept that death occurs. Now, why do you try to justify all the death and suffering
you cause?

Virtually all your statements are completely false.
=====================
Everyone of yours is....

Quoted message said:

If you do some research, read some books, you'll get the real facts. But then I suppose you'll
turn on your blinders and then start talking about how vegetables feel just as much pain when they
are killed so there's no reason to be vegetarian. I've actually heard that one before.

==================
ROTFLMAO I suggest you worry about the mammals, birds, reptiles, fish, and amphibians tha die for no
more reason than your selfish conveninece.

Quoted message said:

Look, if you want to eat meat, go ahead and do it. No one is stopping you. Don't try to tell
vegetarians that their lifestyle is wrong, though. Especially if you are going to make your
argument is completely untrue.

==================
It's yours that is completly untrue and full of ignorance. And, vegans are always trying to tell us
how to eat.

Quoted message said:

Gary

Quoted message said:

It appears that in order to think of things in the correct and

ethically

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

superior way, some people believe we should disregard certain facts. Overall it appears to me
that veg*ns want to disregard more facts than meat consumers, but maybe I'm wrong about that.
The following are lists of facts that meat eaters want to disregard, and that veg*ns want to
disregard. If you have more to add, please do so.

Facts that meat consumers want to disregard:
1.The meat industry provides life for the billions of animals who are killed so we can eat them.

Facts that veg*ns want to disregard:
1.The meat industry provides life for the billions of animals who are killed so we can eat them.
2. Some of the animals raised for food have decent lives.
3. Veg*nism does nothing to provide decent lives for farm animals.
4. Veg*nism does nothing to help or provide more life for any animals.
5. People can contribute to decent lives for farm animals, but they can't do it by being veg*n.
6. Veg*ns contribute to most of the same animal deaths that everyone else does by their use of
wood, paper, roads, buildings,

electricity,

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

things that contain animal by-products, and the veggies they eat.
7. Some types of meat involve fewer animal deaths than some types of veggies.
8. Some types of meat involve less animal suffering than some types of veggies.

----- Message Text ----- |But you don't only eat carrots. You eat rice and |cereal grains and all
kinds of thing whose production |and distribution causes the death of animals. You |simply don't eat
the animals that are killed. They are |just as dead, irrespective of if you eat them.

The processes that result in carrots and rice and so forth for us to consume is not, by its nature,
dependant upon the death of animals. The consumption of meat requires that animals are killed. If
one's goal is to minimize harm (not eliminate, as that would be impossible), then there is validity
to abstaining from eating meat.

Is it then valid to abstain from other non-animal foods on the same basis? Perhaps so, but we do
need sustenance to survive. This is why I will eat in full knowledge that there are deaths
associated with my food; this is unavoidable. If the two of us are on a desert island and I need to
kill you for food, I will. For me, it's a matter of what's necessary and meat isn't.

(bradbeattie)at(alumni.uwaterloo.ca)

SykonC said:

Quoted message said:

1.The meat industry provides life for the billions of animals who are killed so we can eat them.

Wow, like some people might have told you already, that really makes no sense. Life? They could
have been alive even if noone was to torture them (was that really a surprise?). If say, someone
bred YOU, mr dh_ld, to be slaughtered, and meanwhile, kept you in barely habitable conditions,
amputated you, and so forth, maybe you would withdraw your 'provides *life*' comment.

Glancing thru this and started thinking, always dangerous.

Should we apply the same standards to people? Look at all of the people being kept alive just to
provide votes for politicians, at public expense. Maybe we should just eliminate various "welfare"
projects and allow people to live free of restrictions. Can you imagine living in a housing project?
Or, the destruction of the human spirit that comes from begging the government for assistance?

Of course, there are some that are so crippled by long-term assistance that they are unable to
survive on their own, so the compassionate thing to do would be to allow them the dignity of a
peaceful termination of life.

Maybe extend that privilege to those that commit crimes also, can you imagine the torture of living
with the knowledge that you intentionally killed someone, or raped a child. Again the gift of a
quick termination of existence would be the merciful thing to do.

I am sure that others could extend this list.

SykonC said:

Quoted message said:

It appears that in order to think of things in the correct and ethically superior way, some
people believe we should disregard certain facts. Overall it appears to me that veg*ns want
to disregard more facts than meat consumers, but maybe I'm wrong about that. The following
are lists of facts that meat eaters want to disregard, and that veg*ns want to disregard. If
you have more to add, please do so.

Facts that meat consumers want to disregard:
1.The meat industry provides life for the billions of animals who are killed so we can eat them.

Wow, like some people might have told you already, that really makes no sense. Life? They could
have been alive even if noone was to torture them (was that really a surprise?).

If say, someone bred YOU, mr dh_ld, to be slaughtered, and meanwhile, kept you in barely habitable
conditions, amputated you, and so forth, maybe you would withdraw your 'provides *life*' comment.

Maybe. Maybe not. Would I know the situation? The animals don't. What makes you think animals
raised for profit are kept in barely habitable conditions?

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3. Veg*nism does nothing to provide decent lives for farm animals.

Well the point is, they wouldn't need to be farmed in the first place if noones eating them

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4. Veg*nism does nothing to help or provide more life for any animals.

Well, for starters, by *not* eating them, they are more free to live their own live, whether that
be to frolick in the meadows, forests or natural habitats, or to just have the right to do what
they want, without being captive, tortured, and eventually, eaten.

· The meat industry includes habitats in which a small variety of animals are raised. The
animals in those habitats, like those in any other, are completely dependant on them to not only
sustain their lives, but they also depend on them to provide the pairing of sperm and egg that
begin their particular lives. Those particular animals will only live if people continue to
raise them for food.

Animals that are born to other groups--such as wild animals, pets, performing animals, etc.--are
completely different groups of animals. Regardless of how many or few animals are born to these
other groups, the billions of animals which are raised for food will always be dependant on that
industry, and will only experience life if humans continue to consume them. ·

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6. Veg*ns contribute to most of the same animal deaths that everyone else does by their use of
wood, paper, roads, buildings, electricity, things that contain animal by-products, and the
veggies they eat.

Huh? Wood is an animal by product ?

What makes you huh about an idea like that? I didn't suggest it is btw.

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Wow, that's something that's never taught in science! Or in fact, anywhere!

Do you think anywhere might teach students that some plants are nourished by animal bypoducts?

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Have you had your head checked recently?

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7. Some types of meat involve fewer animal deaths than some types of veggies.

Ok, what died for a veggie?

Animals that lived in the field.

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This makes no sense, unless you are employing very strange and dangerous farming methods.

Like plowing....

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8. Some types of meat involve less animal suffering than some types of veggies.

Ah, lets give up on this guy. He doesn't seem to get the difference between meat and vegetables,
maybe in his world some mutant vege will eat him up. :S

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swamp said:

Quoted message said:

Facts that meat consumers want to disregard:
1.The meat industry provides life for the billions of animals who are killed so we can eat them.

Just out of curiosity, has anyone *ever* bought this argument, David?

--swamp

I have mentioned it to quite a few people in face to face conversations, and have *never* had
anyone attach a bunch of extra junk to it about a right to life for unconceived hypothetical
potential future animals, like the Gonad and some of his veg*n buddies do. They have always
agreed that raising animals for food provides billions of them with life, since it would be
absurd to disagree.

No more absurd than pointing it out. It is true, but it's trivial; it is meaningless in the debate
about whether or not it's morally right to eat meat.

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As for whether or not providing them with life is an acceptable trade off for taking it later, no
one has ever had a problem with it.

Thanks for the admission that you think "getting to experience life" is some kind of moral good. I'm
adding this to the FAQ.

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There has certainly never been anyone who felt that we should *disregard* that aspect of the
situation, and when I tell people about the responses I get in these ngs, they feel that people
making them are the ones who don't think of things realistically.

You have a cherry-picked audience of brain-dead rednecks.

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No offence to you swamp, and no offence was intended when I mentioned it before, but the
objections you presented to it were for the most part if not entirely arguments that veg*ns
would use.

Some of what "vegans" say is correct.

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Some of them I suppose I would agree with to some extent, and others I wouldn't. I've been
wondering ever since how many of them you agreed with and how many you didn't, but we never got
down to details like that so I still don't know which are objections that you agree with and which
are not. I might still have a list of them if you'd care to go through it and say which you go
along with and which you don't.

When I mention this aspect of the situation to people in person, it is met with a completely
different reaction than it is in these ngs.

Dumb inbred southern rednecks. What did you expect?

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Why not try it yourself with a few people and see what their reaction is, just out of curiosity.
Please let me know how it turns out if you give it a go. You could just tell them that some moron
you've seen online is going around saying that billions of animals are not simply "killed" as
"ARAs" want us to perceive the situation, but that those same billions of animals only get any
life at all because people raise them for food, and see what their reaction is.

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Gary Beckwith said:

you are full of vegan baloney!

first of all eating vegan DOES help animals because it decreases demand for meat.

Which animals does it help, and how does it help them?

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second, vegan is not just an eating habit. it is a way of life. many vegans don't just refrain
from eating meat, they also contribute to organizations such as Farm Sanctuary or PETA, that have
many programs that directly affect the welfare of animals.

Veg*nism itself does nothing to help animals, regardless of what other things a person does.

Meat eating does nothing to help animals, either, regardless of what other things a person does.

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now, i have to take particular issue with your portrayal of the meat industry providing a good
life for many animals. That simply is NOT true. The vast majority of animals raised for meat live
HORRIBLE lives. They are confined to very small areas, pumped with hormones, body parts removed,
and killed in very painful and inhumane ways. Do you know how a beef cattle is killed? Look it up,
it's disgusting. I know, I live in farm country and I see it every day. Even dairy cows are often
confined to indoor barns and never get to roam. I drive by a dairy farm almost every day, that is
basically a huge metal building full of cows that can't even turn around. I've never seen them let
outside in years.

Some of them have decent lives and some of them don't.

That's merely your opinion, and it is based on ignorance.

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If you think they all have HORRIBLE lives then you're being no more realistic about it than
someone who thinks they all have decent lives.

If one thinks that it is horrible to kill an animal for human consumption, then they indeed all have
horrible lives.

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your #7 is outrageous. what exactly are you thinking of? A vegetable crop that kills more animals
than meat?

From the life and death of a grass raised steer people can get over 500 servings of beef.

You are a massive hypocrite. You do not eat grass-fed beef. You do not make any effort at all to
choose meat from sources that treated animals better than the average for their industries. You buy
whatever beef, chicken, pork and other that Piggly Wiggly has in shrink-wrapped packages. You are
not an ethical meat eater.

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A few meals of tofu are likely to involve more deaths than 500 meals from grass raised beef.

You have no support for that claim. It's idle, ignorant speculation.

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From the life and death of a grass raised dairy cow people can get thousands of dairy servings. A
few servings of rice milk are likely to involve more deaths than a thousand servings of grass
raised cow milk.

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you should get your facts straight before you state them as "facts".

It sounds to me like you are just another meat eater trying to justify your cruel habit. Virtually
all your statements are completely false.

They are all true,

One of them is completely insignificant: the one about the meat and dairy industries "providing
life" for farm animals.

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as was the main point which is that there are quite a few significan facts that you veg*ns do
*not* want people to consider.

Vegans not giving any consideration to this stupid "providing life" argument is not out of a
fear of what might be discovered. It is based on a full-knowledge awareness that there is
nothing to consider.

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Gary Beckwith said:

you are full of vegan baloney!

first of all eating vegan DOES help animals because it decreases demand for meat.

Which animals does it help, and how does it help them?

it helps the ones that don't have to be born into a life of torture.

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second, vegan is not just an eating habit. it is a way of life. many vegans don't just refrain
from eating meat, they also contribute to organizations such as Farm Sanctuary or PETA, that have
many programs that directly affect the welfare of animals.

Veg*nism itself does nothing to help animals, regardless of what other things a person does.

you can twist the facts any way you want. most vegans have a lifestyle, not just an eating habit.
what's your point? veganism itself is

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now, i have to take particular issue with your portrayal of the meat industry providing a good
life for many animals. That simply is NOT true. The vast majority of animals raised for meat live
HORRIBLE lives. They are confined to very small areas, pumped with hormones, body parts removed,
and killed in very painful and inhumane ways. Do you know how a beef cattle is killed? Look it
up, it's disgusting. I know, I live in farm country and I see it every day. Even dairy cows are
often confined to indoor barns and never get to roam. I drive by a dairy farm almost every day,
that is basically a huge metal building full of cows that can't even turn around. I've never seen
them let outside in years.

Some of them have decent lives and some of them don't. If you think they all have HORRIBLE
lives then you're being no more realistic about it than someone who thinks they all have
decent lives.

the VAST MAJORITY, i'd say well over 95% live horrible lives. did I ever say all? again, what's the
point? does it make a difference if it's all, or most, or 95% or 50%?

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your #7 is outrageous. what exactly are you thinking of? A vegetable crop that kills more animals
than meat?

From the life and death of a grass raised steer people can get over 500 servings of beef. A
few meals of tofu are likely to involve more deaths than 500 meals from grass raised beef.
From the life and death of a grass raised dairy cow people can get thousands of dairy
servings. A few servings of rice milk are likely to involve more deaths than a thousand
servings of grass raised cow milk.

you are full of it. you did not give any example. what deaths? there simply are not any animal
deaths involved in tofu production. get real.

the fact is that for every pound of beef produced, hundreds of pounds of grain must be grown and
hundreds of gallons of water are wasted. The entire earth could live off the grain and water that is
wasted to feed cattle. get your facts straight. you are completely wrong on this one. do you know
how many pounds of grain and gallons of water are required to raise that head of beef that makes 500
servings? I guess not because if you did you would not make that statement.

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you should get your facts straight before you state them as "facts".

It sounds to me like you are just another meat eater trying to justify your cruel habit.
Virtually all your statements are completely false.

They are all true, as was the main point which is that there are quite a few significan facts
that you veg*ns do *not* want people to consider. That's because you care more about promoting
veg*nism than you do about human influence on animals.

I supposed you know exactly what I think and believe and what I want to do. your original statement
is full of generalizations of what vegans think and do. how would you know what I think? how do you
know what i care about?

Simply stated, your arguments are not true, your arguments are completey full of holes and when
given an opporutunity to respond you skirt the issue. If you reallly know the facts, why don't you
tell me where all the animal deaths are that result from tofu production? Three times you've said
that more animals die from the raising of vegetables than meat and never have you given a single
example. You also seem to know nothing about beef production and the resources that go into it. Your
arguments are hollow and unsubstantiated. You generalize a whole group of people into thinking and
feeling one certain way, which is completely outrageous.

You should learn more about the facts, and perhaps take a class on debating. In real debates, you
don't make generalizations and you substantiate your facts. You've done neither.

I don't even see why you're trying to make this case. go ahead and eat meat if you want to. it's a
personal choice. Why do you have to tell other people they are wrong for making personal decisions
that differ from yours? Maybe you're feeling guilty for eating meat and you're trying to justify
your habit by making these statements?

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If you do some research, read some books, you'll get the real facts. But then I suppose you'll
turn on your blinders and then start talking about how vegetables feel just as much pain when
they are killed so there's no reason to be vegetarian. I've actually heard that one before.

Look, if you want to eat meat, go ahead and do it. No one is stopping you. Don't try to tell
vegetarians that their lifestyle is wrong, though. Especially if you are going to make your
argument is completely untrue.

Gary

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It appears that in order to think of things in the correct and ethically superior way, some
people believe we should disregard certain facts. Overall it appears to me that veg*ns want
to disregard more facts than meat consumers, but maybe I'm wrong about that. The following
are lists of facts that meat eaters want to disregard, and that veg*ns want to disregard.
If you have more to add, please do so.

Facts that meat consumers want to disregard:
1.The meat industry provides life for the billions of animals who are killed so we can eat
them.

Facts that veg*ns want to disregard:
1.The meat industry provides life for the billions of animals who are killed so we can eat
them.
2. Some of the animals raised for food have decent lives.
3. Veg*nism does nothing to provide decent lives for farm animals.
4. Veg*nism does nothing to help or provide more life for any animals.
5. People can contribute to decent lives for farm animals, but they can't do it by being veg*n.
6. Veg*ns contribute to most of the same animal deaths that everyone else does by their use of
wood, paper, roads, buildings, electricity, things that contain animal by-products, and the
veggies they eat.
7. Some types of meat involve fewer animal deaths than some types of veggies.
8. Some types of meat involve less animal suffering than some types of veggies.

Jonathan Ball said:

Quoted message said:

now, i have to take particular issue with your portrayal of the meat industry providing a good
life for many animals. That simply is NOT true. The vast majority of animals raised for meat
live HORRIBLE lives. They are confined to very small areas, pumped with hormones, body parts
removed, and killed in very painful and inhumane ways.

Prove any of this. Get busy.

I don't have to prove it, there are dozens of books already written, with photos, first hand
accounts from farmers, etc. read Diet for A New America.

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Do you know how a beef cattle is killed? Look it up, it's disgusting. I know, I live in farm
country and I see it every day.

Beef cattle are not slaughtered in farm country. Stop lying.

My point was not about WHERE they are slaughtered, it is about HOW. The WHERE has nothing to
do with it.

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Even dairy cows are often confined to indoor barns and never get to roam. I drive by a dairy
farm almost every day, that is basically a huge metal building full of cows that can't even turn
around. I've never seen them let outside in years.

You've never been inside the building, either, so you don't know what you're talking about.

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your #7 is outrageous. what exactly are you thinking of? A vegetable crop that kills more
animals than meat?

Fields are disced, and when the crops are harvested, heavy machinery again drives through the
fields, killing animals.

killing what animals? the bugs in the soil? this is rediculous.

whatever, I find it quite odd that people who eat meat have the time to criticize people who don't
even though it has nothing to do with them.

it's just like being environmental, and recycling. I've heard people say it's a waste of time to
recycle because there's so much garbage. Or why buy an electric car, or use solar panels on your
house, when it won't really make a difference.

The truth is, that if everyone ate vegetarian, there would be enough food to feed the entire world.
and if everyone used renewable energy our planet would be inhabitable in 100 years.

I didn't start this discussion. I don't go out of my way to tell people they should or shouldn't do
anything. You can eat all the meat you want. But don't litter this newsgroup with lies and point the
finger at people who are making personal decisions that have nothing to do with yours.

usual suspect said:

Gary Beckwith said:

you are full of vegan baloney!

first of all eating vegan DOES help animals because it decreases demand for meat.

No, it doesn't. Vegans constitute a very tiny minority, at least in the developed nations of the
world, and their dietary habits have negligible influence on the lives of farm animals. What would
improve the quality of farm animals is if you were to consume animals raised organically and in
humane conditions. Such operations do exist. The fact that you have chosen to play an either-or
game rather than support humane ranching does nothing to help the plight of any animal.

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second, vegan is not just an eating habit.

No [censored], Sherlock. It is a radical political act.

Quoted message said:

it is a way of life.

Yes, a sheltered and peculiar act of self-marginalization. Such actions become a "way of life"
particularly when one ostracizes societal norms and puts oneself on the fringe. VeganISM is a
subculture.

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many vegans don't just refrain from eating meat, they also contribute to organizations such as
Farm Sanctuary or PETA,

This doesn't make it a way of life. Others, who are not vegan, are free to support animal welfare
programs and agencies -- which, incidentally, are not concerns of PETA (Peta is for animal rights,
not welfare).

Quoted message said:

that have many programs that directly affect the welfare of animals.

Veganism has nothing to do with the welfare of animals and everything to do with an anti-
capitalist political philosophy which has been rejected in nearly every nation where it's been
tried. The exceptions maintain their anti-capitalism by force, not by popular choice.

Quoted message said:

now, i have to take particular issue with your portrayal of the meat industry providing a good
life for many animals.

Why?

Quoted message said:

That simply is NOT true.

Actually, it IS true. Animals with economic value are treated better than animals with no economic
value. You ignore this point when shocking yourself and friends with PETA propaganda pamphlets,
but visit a farm for yourself and see how animals are treated. Sick animals don't gain weight,
they lose weight; sick animals don't bring more revenue, they drain revenue; sick animals do not
save ranchers money, they lose ranchers money.

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The vast majority of animals raised for meat live HORRIBLE lives.

Care to prove that wild accusation?

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They are confined to very small areas,

Even veal calves, long the poster-animals of benighted zealots like yourself, are not kept in
crates in the US. "The vast majority of animals raised for meat" in fact have sufficient range to
move. Confinement is the exception, though it does have some merit: it prevents disease in younger
animals, injuries from aggressive or territorial animals, etc. I realize in some parts of the
country the scale of farming requires intensive methods including confinement; this, though, is
usually a function of restricted land-use and economies of scale.

Quoted message said:

pumped with hormones,

Do you have any information from agencies not opposed to ranching/farming to support this?

Quoted message said:

body parts removed,

Evidence from sources not polluted with the kind of partisanship of Peta or other activist groups?
If it's wrong to castrate bull calves, do you promote spaying and neutering of dogs and cats?

Quoted message said:

and killed in very painful and inhumane ways.

Do you have any direct evidence of this? I'm from a ranching family, and I've slaughtered more
than my share of steers. It was neither inhumane nor painful for any animal.

<snip>

Quoted message said:

I know,
I live in farm country and I see it every day.

You do not know, and you probably live in the suburbs if you live near any "farm country." Cattle
aren't slaughtered out in the pasture, nitwit. USDA makes sure of that.

Quoted message said:

Even dairy cows are often confined to indoor barns and never get to roam.

Some dairy cattle are confined, MOST are not. The reasons can be manifold, but most cattle roam
pastures as long as there's sufficient forage for grazing.

Quoted message said:

I drive by a dairy farm almost every day, that is basically a huge metal building full of cows
that can't even turn around. I've never seen them let outside in years.

How do you know they cannot turn around? Have you ever gone inside the "huge metal building"?

Quoted message said:

your #7 is outrageous. what exactly are you thinking of? A vegetable crop that kills more
animals than meat?

Yes. Pesticides, herbicides, farm machinery, etc. It all takes a toll on animals -- a heavy toll
in death and dismemberment. Davey's seventh point is correct.

Quoted message said:

you should get your facts straight before you state them as "facts".

So should you, Einstein.

Quoted message said:

It sounds to me like you are just another meat eater trying to justify your cruel habit.
Virtually all your statements are completely false.

Davey isn't exactly the sharpest tool in the shed, but in this case he's correct.

Quoted message said:

If you do some research, read some books, you'll get the real facts.

If you do some research rather than reading propaganda from groups like Peta, maybe you'll get the
real facts.

Quoted message said:

But then I suppose you'll turn on your blinders and then start talking about how vegetables feel
just as much pain when they are killed so there's no reason to be vegetarian. I've actually
heard that one before.

No, he'll keep on about animals and life. He doesn't alter his posts one bit. As for wearing
blinders, what's your excuse, country boy?

Quoted message said:

Look, if you want to eat meat, go ahead and do it. No one is stopping you.

Groups you support are aligned with the sole purpose of making it harder for some people to eat
what they want. Stop supporting anti-meat organizations if you're so libertarian. Otherwise, stop
whining when others clear up your misunderstandings about ranching and animal welfare.

Quoted message said:

Don't try to tell vegetarians that their lifestyle is wrong, though.

It's a free country and he can do that if he wants.

Quoted message said:

Especially if you are going to make your argument is completely untrue.

Especially if you're going to write bad sentences. Ick.

Jonathan Ball said:

(snip)

Quoted message said:

Beef cattle are not slaughtered in farm country. Stop lying.

The Big Four meat-packers, (ConAgra, IBP, Excel, National Beef), slaughter 84% of American
cattle. Their plants are concentrated in the non-union _farm_ states of Nebraska, Kansas, Texas,
Colorado and Iowa.

Quoted message said:

(snip)

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

your #7 is outrageous. what exactly are you thinking of? A vegetable crop that kills more
animals than meat?

Fields are disced, killing animals.

Conservation minded farmers use low-till or no-till systems. Anyone concerned about wildlife and the
environment should be careful to purchase products from farmers using sound conservation practices.
Even the USDA recognizes the all-around benefits of conservation farming and offers economic
incentives to farmers who go easy on the land and the animals living on it.

Quoted message said:

and when the crops are harvested, heavy machinery again drives through the fields,

Don't you ever get off the freeway, Ball? A good portion of California's fruits and vegetables are
hand-harvested. You've heard of farm-workers, haven't you? This means the total ground surface
damage (and alleged squashing of field animals) from heavy machinery in the fields can be measured
in tire tracks of the trucks hauling the produce out of the field.

I can see field mice scampering from my footsteps as I climb the slopes of San Bruno Mountain. I
step lightly on a 112 lb. frame. Do you think field animals are going to sit still and wait for a
loud, smoking, vibrating machine to rumble over them?

You hate animals and know nothing about them.

(snip)

Quoted message said:

If "vegans" believe they are making a legitimate ethical choice by not eating meat and other
animal products in order not to cause animal suffering, their lifestyle IS wrong and bogus and
based on a logical fallacy.

Strawman. Vegans believe by not eating meat and purchasing other animal products they are not
contributing to the suffering of _farmed animals_ and they're not.

For the record, because I purchase enormous quantities of slaughterhouse waste in the form of
catfood, I am, technically, not a vegan. How does this CONFORM to your vision of me as a vegan
CONFORMIST?

(snip)