Face Plant -- Ouch!

Simon' sbennettatwiderworlddotcodotuk said:

Face first into the tarmac today. The first time since I was about 7 years old. Cut chin (a perfect
'L' shape), cut nose, fat lip, sprained wrist and a mouth full of grit, which I thought was bits of
tooth at first! I took a damp corner too sharply. Just slipped out and smack!

Hard luck. Glad to hear you're not too bad.

Quoted message said:

ps, Bike is OK, just a chunk out of the saddle and a few scratches. A big chunk out of the front of
my helmet; it's a Bell.

This is just an observation based on anecdotal evidence, and I wonder if any serious work has been
done on this. It seems to be that people crashing with helmets are picking up facial injuries in
significant numbers. In your case we can only speculate about what might have happened if you had
not been wearing a brain bucket. Your head might have missed the tarmac altogether or your face may
have gone flat onto it or you could have struck with your forehead only. It looks as though what
might actually have happened was that the front of your helmet struck first and acted as a pivot
accelerating your lower face into the ground.

Last year a clubmate of mine picked up a serious injury around her eye socket when she went down
after clashing wheels with her boyfriend while they were warming up for a TT. I thought at the time
that it looked like a similar effect but I kept my opinion to myself until her boyfriend, who had
seen her go down, said as much to me. Like me he believes that her injuries would probably have been
less severe without a helmet. The lady herself, however, does not agree and believes that the helmet
saved her from even worse injury.

In March there was a posting by j-p.s describing how an inexperienced rider fell and "got off" with
a graze to the cheek because she was wearing a helmet. I remember thinking at the time that it
looked like a milder version of Lisa's crash and I wondered then whether it's possible really to
know whether the injury would have been more or less severe without a helmet. You can find that
posting here makeashorterlink.commakeashorterlink.comOpen ↗ or here groups.google.comgroupsOpen ↗
r=&ie=UTF-8&selm=slrnb673bb.rsn.jstacey%40plato.wadham.ox.ac.uk

Now the DfT is claiming that helmets not only protect the top of the head but help to avoid upper
and lower facial injuries. This does not seem a very sound claim to me. Note that I have not said
that helmets have necessarily made the outcomes worse in these cases, I've simply raised the
possibility. It's very difficult to know either way. Furthermore, even if it's accepted that helmets
can increase the chance of a facial injury in a crash it doesn't necessarily mean that you're worse
off with one overall.

--
Dave...

Dave Kahn said:

Simon' sbennettatwiderworlddotcodotuk said:

Face first into the tarmac today. The first time since I was about 7 years old. Cut chin (a
perfect 'L' shape), cut nose, fat lip, sprained wrist and a mouth full of grit, which I thought
was bits of tooth at first! I took a damp corner too sharply. Just slipped out and smack!

Hard luck. Glad to hear you're not too bad.

Quoted message said:

ps, Bike is OK, just a chunk out of the saddle and a few scratches. A big chunk out of the front
of my helmet; it's a Bell.

This is just an observation based on anecdotal evidence, and I wonder if any serious work has been
done on this. It seems to be that people crashing with helmets are picking up facial injuries in
significant numbers. In your case we can only speculate about what might have happened if you had
not been wearing a brain bucket. Your head might have missed the tarmac altogether or your face
may have gone flat onto it or you could have struck with your forehead only. It looks as though
what might actually have happened was that the front of your helmet struck first and acted as a
pivot accelerating your lower face into the ground.

Last year a clubmate of mine picked up a serious injury around her eye socket when she went down
after clashing wheels with her boyfriend while they were warming up for a TT. I thought at the
time that it looked like a similar effect but I kept my opinion to myself until her boyfriend, who
had seen her go down, said as much to me. Like me he believes that her injuries would probably
have been less severe without a helmet. The lady herself, however, does not agree and believes
that the helmet saved her from even worse injury.

In March there was a posting by j-p.s describing how an inexperienced rider fell and "got off"
with a graze to the cheek because she was wearing a helmet. I remember thinking at the time that
it looked like a milder version of Lisa's crash and I wondered then whether it's possible really
to know whether the injury would have been more or less severe without a helmet. You can find that
posting here makeashorterlink.commakeashorterlink.comOpen ↗ or here

groups.google.comgroupsOpen ↗
ey%40plato.wadham.ox.ac.uk

Quoted message said:

Now the DfT is claiming that helmets not only protect the top of the head but help to avoid upper
and lower facial injuries. This does not seem a very sound claim to me. Note that I have not said
that helmets have necessarily made the outcomes worse in these cases, I've simply raised the
possibility. It's very difficult to know either way. Furthermore, even if it's accepted that
helmets can increase the chance of a facial injury in a crash it doesn't necessarily mean that
you're worse off with one overall.

I know this is just anecdotal... but I've had 2 accidents where I've gone over and landed
face first.

The first was exactly 21 years ago, give or take a day, I took a bend quite fast and as I came out
of the corner the front wheel folded. The damage to me was grazed cheek stitches in my chin and
various bruising/grazes to shoulder, elbow and thigh.

The other was back in January when my front wheel got jammed in a rut and again my face was first to
reach the ground. The damage this time was a black eye and grazed cheek.

In the first accident I didn't have a helmet but I don't think it would have mattered as that part
of my head didn't hit the ground (this is where I expect people to say a helmet could have made it
worse ;-) ). In the second I was wearing a helmet and I don't think it made any difference as I
don't think the helmet actually touched the ground.

I think what I'm trying to say is that in any accident I've had I've tended to have my head up
before hitting the ground so keeping the top of my head away from the ground. Then again you can't
infer anything from 2 incedents 21 years apart.
--
Mark

Simon said:

Face first into the tarmac today. The first time since I was about 7 years old. Cut chin (a
perfect 'L' shape), cut nose, fat lip, sprained wrist and a mouth full of grit, which I thought
was bits of tooth at first! I took a damp corner too sharply. Just slipped out and smack!

Couple of kids came over to ask if I was okay. All I could say in reply was, "I don't know, do I
look okay?", to which they replied, "Well... no" (I was covered in lots of blood). A passer-by
stopped her car and asked if I was okay. I asked her again if I looked like okay as I had no idea
how bad the cuts were, I must have been in shock as I couldn't feel a thing. As she lived just
around the corner, she took me in, gave me tea, ibuprofen and even cleaned up my cuts and gave the
kids a couple of quid in return for wheeling my bike round the corner to her house.

This has really given me is a renewed faith in people's kindness. And perhaps I ought to take
corners more carefully in wet conditions.

I will pop round to hers tomorrow with a bottle of wine and more thanks. I definitely owe her one.
I'll watch out for those kids too, as they're often on that corner on my commute home.

So, in one way, excellent and quite bad at the same time (my face hurts).

Simon

ps, Bike is OK, just a chunk out of the saddle and a few scratches. A big chunk out of the front
of my helmet; it's a Bell. The other day someone mentioned that Bell replaces damaged helmets
free of charge. Is this correct?

I hope you recover soon.

Last year a car hit me and I cracked my Bell helmet on the bonnet/windscreen. I wrote to Bell. Their
policy, if I remember right, is to replace the helmet at cost price provided the helmet is less than
3 years old.
--
Mark

On Fri, 6 Jun 2003 23:55:36 +0100, "Simon" <sbennettatwiderworlddotcodotuk> wrote:

Speedy recovery, glad you're not too badly hurt.

Quoted message said:

(my face hurts).

If it still hurts tomorrow you'll know you must have crashed ;-)

Guy
===
** WARNING ** This posting may contain traces of irony. chapmancentral.comchapmancentral.comOpen ↗ (BT ADSL and
dynamic DNS permitting)
NOTE: BT Openworld have now blocked port 25 (without notice), so old mail addresses may no longer
work. Apologies.

Dave Kahn said:

It seems to be that people crashing with helmets...

<oops> It seems to *me* that people crashing with helmets...

--
Dave...

Dave Kahn said:

Simon' sbennettatwiderworlddotcodotuk said:

Face first into the tarmac today. The first time since I was about 7 years old. Cut chin (a
perfect 'L' shape), cut nose, fat lip, sprained wrist and a mouth full of grit, which I thought
was bits of tooth at first! I took a damp corner too sharply. Just slipped out and smack!

Hard luck. Glad to hear you're not too bad.

Quoted message said:

ps, Bike is OK, just a chunk out of the saddle and a few scratches. A big chunk out of the front
of my helmet; it's a Bell.

This is just an observation based on anecdotal evidence, and I wonder if any serious work has been
done on this. It seems to be that people crashing with helmets are picking up facial injuries in
significant numbers.

SNIP

Quoted message said:

Now the DfT is claiming that helmets not only protect the top of the head but help to avoid upper
and lower facial injuries. This does not seem a very sound claim to me. Note that I have not said
that helmets have necessarily made the outcomes worse in these cases, I've simply raised the
possibility. It's very difficult to know either way. Furthermore, even if it's accepted that
helmets can increase the chance of a facial injury in a crash it doesn't necessarily mean that
you're worse off with one overall.

We had better watch out or we will soon be wearing full face helmets, followed soon by some form of
formula 1 neck brace and other protective stuff. Remove TT to email

the Mark said:

In the second was wearing a helmet and I don't think it made any difference as I don't think the
helmet actually touched the ground.

Then I suggest it has no bearing on the effectiveness or otherwise of helmets.

--
Dave...

Alan Oakley said:

We had better watch out or we will soon be wearing full face helmets,

Some cyclists already are. I saw one on the streets of Versailles this week on a BMX, and a complete
prat he looked too.

Quoted message said:

followed soon by some form of formula 1 neck brace and other protective stuff.

Well I haven't seen anyone cycling in flameproof overalls yet, although I have known people wear
them for posting to urc.

--
Dave...

Dave Kahn said:

the Mark said:

In the second was wearing a helmet and I don't think it made any difference as I don't think the
helmet actually touched the ground.

Then I suggest it has no bearing on the effectiveness or otherwise of helmets.

I thought I was discussing how the head hit the ground and if a helmet was to cause injuries to the
area not covered by the helmet.

It may be my usual problem of not being able to always make my self clear. My wife is used to me
saying things that are different to what I really mean. It could be the number of bumps on the head
I've had :-)
--
Mark

"Simon" <sbennettatwiderworlddotcodotuk> wrote

Quoted message said:

Face first into the tarmac today. The first time since I was about 7 years old. Cut chin (a
perfect 'L' shape), cut nose, fat lip, sprained wrist and

a

Quoted message said:

mouth full of grit, which I thought was bits of tooth at first! I took a damp corner too sharply.
Just slipped out and smack!

Out of interest, what kind of tyres were you on? Knobbly, semi-slick or road/touring?

David Roberts

the Mark said:

Dave Kahn said:

the Mark said:

In the second was wearing a helmet and I don't think it made any difference as I don't think the
helmet actually touched the ground.

Then I suggest it has no bearing on the effectiveness or otherwise of helmets.

I thought I was discussing how the head hit the ground and if a helmet was to cause injuries to the
area not covered by the helmet.

But this could happen only if the helmet itself received an impact. In your case you said that it
did not. I wasn't suggesting for a moment that helmets were the only cause of facial injuries in
bicycle crashes.

--
Dave...

Dave Kahn said:

the Mark said:

Dave Kahn said:

On Sat, 7 Jun 2003 14:58:05 +0000 (UTC), "the Mark" <[email hidden]> wrote:

> In the second was wearing a helmet and I don't think it made any difference as I don't think
> the helmet actually touched the ground.

Then I suggest it has no bearing on the effectiveness or otherwise of helmets.

I thought I was discussing how the head hit the ground and if a helmet was to cause injuries to
the area not covered by the helmet.

But this could happen only if the helmet itself received an impact. In your case you said that it
did not. I wasn't suggesting for a moment that helmets were the only cause of facial injuries in
bicycle crashes.

Ah yes, I understand now - me being thick as usual :-)
--
Mark

Bad one today in the Deutschland tour. Gonzalez de Galdeano hit the foot of a barrier in the ITT.
DNF with a suspected broken collar bone. Only a TT helmet so lots of blood too.... All the best
Dan Gregory

Quoted message said:

Out of interest, what kind of tyres were you on? Knobbly, semi-slick or road/touring?

Continental Grand Prix 3000 700 x 25c semi-slicks -- I went past the poinjt where I crashed again
today, the road is very 'stoney' there (ie, not smooth tarmac, but not loose either).

"Simon" <sbennettatwiderworlddotcodotuk> wrote

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Out of interest, what kind of tyres were you on? Knobbly, semi-slick or road/touring?

Continental Grand Prix 3000 700 x 25c semi-slicks -- I went past the poinjt where I crashed again
today, the road is very 'stoney' there (ie, not smooth tarmac, but not loose either).

Thanks. I was just wondering whether the equipment had some bearing on it. I don't think you really
meant semi-slicks though - they are out & out road tyres aren't they?

I once did the same thing & immediately changed from semi-slick to touring. Vastly more predictable.

Glad to see you are OK.

David Roberts

Quoted message said:

on it. I don't think you really meant semi-slicks though - they are out & out road tyres
aren't they?

Not truly slick. They do have some tread.

Quoted message said:

Not truly slick. They do have some tread.

I correct myslef. They are Conti All Seasons, not GP3000.