Expressways and Cyclists?

"Chris Baird" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Confused by the actual state of the (NSW) law, after reading and being told lots of conflicting
information, and finding nothing on Google, the Australian Road Rules, or the RTA's site...

So.. what is the legality of riding a bike on an expressway? (citing references?)

And, how are you supposed to recognise an expressway, anyway? What people around me call the "F3
Expressway" is only marked as "freeway" on the NRMA/RTA/Cycleway maps I have.

In Melbourne, freeways where you are not allowed to ride are expressly marked with "no horse,
tractors, bicyclists" etc at the entrance.

Tim

Quoted message said:

From: "Tim Jones" <[email hidden]> Newsgroups: aus.bicycle Date: Sat, 6 Dec
2003 10:46:17 +1100 Subject: Re: Expressways and Cyclists?

"Chris Baird" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Confused by the actual state of the (NSW) law, after reading and being told lots of conflicting
information, and finding nothing on Google, the Australian Road Rules, or the RTA's site...

So.. what is the legality of riding a bike on an expressway? (citing references?)

And, how are you supposed to recognise an expressway, anyway? What people around me call the "F3
Expressway" is only marked as "freeway" on the NRMA/RTA/Cycleway maps I have.

In Melbourne, freeways where you are not allowed to ride are expressly marked with "no horse,
tractors, bicyclists" etc at the entrance.

Tim

Unless you're riding in Critical Mass. No cycling on the freeways -- Bicycles Excepted!

As far as I know you can ride on any road a unless expressly forbidden. There should be signage stating no bicycles. Eg through the Harbour tunnel. I think the F3 is a designated cycleway on RTA cycle maps.

Cheers
djali

Quoted post said:

Originally posted by Juz
Unless you're riding in Critical Mass. No cycling on the freeways -- Bicycles Excepted!

Mmmm, even after some 70+ rides we still remember one ride along the SE Arterial with some fondness in 2001. The wheels absolutely hummed over the road. Very rare to get the opportunity to cycle on a such good quality tarmac.😄

Were there provisions for cycle paths with the construction of CityLink other than the Moonee Ponds Creek Path extention? From memory I think there were, but plans were scrapped. Sydney did better with the Glebe Bridge cycle path.

"cfsmtb" <spam@spameggs&spam.com.vic> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Juz said:

Unless you're riding in Critical Mass. No cycling on the freeways -- Bicycles Excepted!

Mmmm, even after some 70+ rides we still remember one ride along the SE Arterial with some
fondness in 2001. The wheels absolutely hummed over the road. Very rare to get the opportunity to
cycle on a such good quality tarmac.😄

Were there provisions for cycle paths with the construction of CityLink other than the Moonee
Ponds Creek Path extention? From memory I think there were, but plans were scrapped. Sydney did
better with the Glebe Bridge cycle path.

I'm not sure if it was part of the plans, but we got the very handy underpass and bridge heading
along under the SE Freeway from Glenferrie rd, and the pontoon path along the Yarra through Burnley
to Richmond.

Tim

cfsmtb spam@spameggs&amp said:

Were there provisions for cycle paths with the construction of CityLink other than the Moonee
Ponds Creek Path extention? From memory I think there were, but plans were scrapped. Sydney did
better with the Glebe Bridge cycle path.

Hmmmm the pontoon thing since they took up all of the river bank? They're also supposed to be
linking up the Yarra Main Trail with Moonee Ponds Creek.

--
Jeremy Lunn Melbourne, Australia Homepage: austux.netaustux.netOpen ↗ jabber.org.aujabber.org.auOpen ↗ - the
next generation of Instant Messaging.

Ah, I think you mean Burnley Wharf.

Linkages with Moonee Ponds Creek? Does this include the beginning of the Capital Trail (Southbank) along to Footscray Rd, or a different route.

Quoted message said:

From: Jeremy Lunn <[email hidden]>

cfsmtb spam@spameggs&amp said:

Were there provisions for cycle paths with the construction of CityLink other than the Moonee
Ponds Creek Path extention? From memory I think there were, but plans were scrapped. Sydney did
better with the Glebe Bridge cycle path.

Hmmmm the pontoon thing since they took up all of the river bank? They're also supposed to be
linking up the Yarra Main Trail with Moonee Ponds Creek.

CityLink built the floating Yarra trail (aka pontoon bridge), developed Burnley Wharf, added the
"troll bridge" suspended under the SE Freeway between St Kevin's College & Glenferrie Rd, and also
built the bottom part of the Moonee Ponds Creek trail close to Footscray Rd.

But let's not forget that the floating path's abysmal engineering (tight-angle downhill corners and
wooden decking on ramps) has caused a huge number of cycle accidents. Also the Moonee Ponds Creek
trail is subject to regular flooding & features underpasses with a clearance of 1.9 metres (I'm
almost 2m tall, and when I'm riding my MTB I have to duck when I ride under these underpasses).
These are both classic examples of road engineers building sub-standard bike facilities because they
don't know how to build infrastructure properly for bikes.

Re: the linking of the Yarra Trail (I guess you mean the Capital City Trail along the west side of
Footscray Rd) with Moonee Pomds Creek Trail -- Melbourne City Council is proposing to build next
year an underpass beneath Footscray Rd which will link the two bike paths. The cost of the underpass
will be approx $300k, and go-ahead is contingent on the council getting co-funding from Parks
Victoria & Docklands Authority.

Quoted post said:

Originally posted by Juz
But let's not forget that the floating path's abysmal engineering (tight-angle downhill corners and
wooden decking on ramps) has caused a huge number of cycle accidents. Also the Moonee Ponds Creek
trail is subject to regular flooding & features underpasses with a clearance of 1.9 metres (I'm
almost 2m tall, and when I'm riding my MTB I have to duck when I ride under these underpasses).

So true about the decking, it's bad during morn & arvo when the commuters hit it.....ditto Moonee Ponds, I'm just over 1.5m and still have to stop myself from instinctively "ducking". There was some discussion 2-3 years back of placing rubber padding on the underpasses to road/train bridges.
:p

Juz <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

From: Jeremy Lunn <[email hidden]>

cfsmtb spam@spameggs&amp said:

Were there provisions for cycle paths with the construction of CityLink other than the Moonee
Ponds Creek Path extention? From memory I think there were, but plans were scrapped. Sydney did
better with the Glebe Bridge cycle path.

Hmmmm the pontoon thing since they took up all of the river bank? They're also supposed to be
linking up the Yarra Main Trail with Moonee Ponds Creek.

CityLink built the floating Yarra trail (aka pontoon bridge), developed Burnley Wharf, added the
"troll bridge" suspended under the SE Freeway between St Kevin's College & Glenferrie Rd,

Are you sure about that ? I'm pretty sure it was a Vic Gov project, Kennet inspired.

and also built the bottom part

Quoted message said:

of the Moonee Ponds Creek trail close to Footscray Rd.

But let's not forget that the floating path's abysmal engineering (tight-angle downhill corners
and wooden decking on ramps) has caused a huge number of cycle accidents.

Not cauased in part by cyclists going faster than the conditions allow ? I remember the route pre
pontoon. I'll take the pontoon and all its faults thnak you very much [snip]

Juz said:

these underpasses). These are both classic examples of road engineers building sub-standard bike
facilities because they don't know how to build infrastructure properly for bikes.

Yeah it goes to show how organisations like BV treat bike paths along freeways as a win when it's
not (I couldn't think of a worse place to ride) and waste time lobbying for such things. When in
fact they should put the effort into actually lobbying against freeways.

Quoted message said:

Re: the linking of the Yarra Trail (I guess you mean the Capital City Trail along the west side of
Footscray Rd) with Moonee Pomds Creek Trail -- Melbourne City Council is proposing to build next
year an underpass beneath Footscray Rd which will link the two bike paths. The cost of the
underpass will be approx $300k, and go-ahead is contingent on the council getting co-funding from
Parks Victoria & Docklands Authority.

Probably wouldn't be necessary if road engineers hadn't designed that place to be so
cyclist/pedestrian hostile.

--
Jeremy Lunn Melbourne, Australia Homepage: austux.netaustux.netOpen ↗ jabber.org.aujabber.org.auOpen ↗ - the
next generation of Instant Messaging.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

CityLink built the floating Yarra trail (aka pontoon bridge), developed Burnley Wharf, added the
"troll bridge" suspended under the SE Freeway between St Kevin's College & Glenferrie Rd,

Are you sure about that ? I'm pretty sure it was a Vic Gov project, Kennet inspired.

100% sure. The is a State Govt requirement that any new or reconstructed freeway must have a shared
path adjacent to it. The paths I mentioned were built by Transurban as part of the CityLink
development.

Quoted message said:

and also built the bottom part

Quoted message said:

of the Moonee Ponds Creek trail close to Footscray Rd.

But let's not forget that the floating path's abysmal engineering (tight-angle downhill corners
and wooden decking on ramps) has caused a huge number of cycle accidents.

Not cauased in part by cyclists going faster than the conditions allow ? I remember the route pre
pontoon. I'll take the pontoon and all its faults thnak you very much [snip]

"Going faster than the conditions" is a circular argument. The wooden decking on ramps was very
slippery when it was wet from rain or dew. That is a design fault, pure & simple.

What you're saying is that because cyclists might whiz along the flat stretches of the path, they
ought to slow down to 10-15km/h so they can safely navigate the ramps. All manner of cyclists
were having accidents -- the first one occurred a week after the path opened and they were
occurring at a rate of dozens a week by the time Parks Vic got around to resurfacing the ramps
with non-slip material.

I hardly think that it's appropriate to blame the victim -- the ramps should have been properly
deisgned from the word go. I'm flummoxed how someone could design a path where you turn a sharp-ish
corner while negotiating a downhill wooden ramp, and just for fun your have some very unforgiving
metal barriers which you can hit if you slip.

"Jeremy Lunn" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Juz said:

these underpasses). These are both classic examples of road engineers building sub-standard bike
facilities because they don't know how to

build

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

infrastructure properly for bikes.

Yeah it goes to show how organisations like BV treat bike paths along freeways as a win when it's
not (I couldn't think of a worse place to ride) and waste time lobbying for such things. When in
fact they should put the effort into actually lobbying against freeways.

That is not a fight they are going to win any time soon. But putting through legislation that makes
it necessary to have bikepaths tagging to freeways means that there is an easy, safe method to cover
decent distance to make bicycle travel more attractive rather than it just being about recreation.

I don't think that riding next to a freeway is great, but in many stretches of SE Freeway and
Eastern, you don't even notice it. And compared to riding on road with cars (for me at least) it
is a boon.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Re: the linking of the Yarra Trail (I guess you mean the Capital City

Trail

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

along the west side of Footscray Rd) with Moonee Pomds Creek Trail -- Melbourne City Council is
proposing to build next year an underpass

beneath

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Footscray Rd which will link the two bike paths. The cost of the

underpass

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

will be approx $300k, and go-ahead is contingent on the council getting co-funding from Parks
Victoria & Docklands Authority.

Probably wouldn't be necessary if road engineers hadn't designed that place to be so
cyclist/pedestrian hostile.

Tim

"Juz" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

CityLink built the floating Yarra trail (aka pontoon bridge), developed Burnley Wharf, added the
"troll bridge" suspended under the SE Freeway between St Kevin's College & Glenferrie Rd, and also
built the bottom part of the Moonee Ponds Creek trail close to Footscray Rd.

Check this one, I believe you're wrong. The Yarra-Gardiner Bridge and the suspended path were built
pre-City Link by the Kennett government. After years of lobbying by Bicycle Victoria this was
Kennett's sole expenditure on cyclists for one year - '95 IIRC.

Quoted message said:

But let's not forget that the floating path's abysmal engineering (tight-angle downhill corners
and wooden decking on ramps) has caused a

huge

Quoted message said:

number of cycle accidents.

Since rectified by resurfacing after lobbying by BV. Ride the Northbank pontoon and then compare to
the narrow, cracked winding path on the southside. The pontoon is far better, and people use it, the
best indication.

Quoted message said:

Re: the linking of the Yarra Trail (I guess you mean the Capital City

Trail

Quoted message said:

along the west side of Footscray Rd) with Moonee Pomds Creek Trail -- Melbourne City Council is
proposing to build next year an underpass

beneath

Quoted message said:

Footscray Rd which will link the two bike paths. The cost of the underpass will be approx $300k,
and go-ahead is contingent on the council getting co-funding from Parks Victoria & Docklands
Authority.

This one will be pointless after the recent path realignment around the new docklands rail link.
Instead ofa simple path rail crossing cyclists are redirected 150 metres back to Footscray Rd then
150 metres south again.So convoluted that many will just chance it and ride Footscray Rd. There's
cycle-friendly planning for you.

Cheers Peter

Juz <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>... [snip]

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Are you sure about that ? I'm pretty sure it was a Vic Gov project, Kennet inspired.

100% sure. The is a State Govt requirement that any new or reconstructed freeway must have a
shared path adjacent to it. The paths I mentioned were built by Transurban as part of the CityLink
development.

If you said 99% sure, I'd let it go, but you said 100% so can you prove it ? I[snip]

Chris Baird said:

Confused by the actual state of the (NSW) law, after reading and being told lots of conflicting
information, and finding nothing on Google, the Australian Road Rules, or the RTA's site...

So.. what is the legality of riding a bike on an expressway? (citing references?)

I see people on the F3 all the time. (Newcastle -> Gosford).

IIRC if you get one of the RTA bicycle lane/path maps it has the F3 marked as a bike path no?

Just near Kariong (Gosford) is a sign on the expressway (about 2km south of mooney mooney bridge
bridge) - It says that cyclists must exit here and use the old pacific highway.

That said, I can't think of a more unpleasant place to ride.

-kt

Tim Jones said:

That is not a fight they are going to win any time soon. But putting through legislation that
makes it necessary to have bikepaths tagging to freeways means that there is an easy, safe method
to cover decent distance to make bicycle travel more attractive rather than it just being about
recreation.

Freeways tend not to be direct enough for serious bicycle travel. For example if you want to head
from Box Hill North to the City, if you took the path alongside the freeway you'd be going via
Bulleen. Barring the noise and unsightliness, it can be okay for recreational riding though the
uninspiring nature is very off putting.

I used tot ake the freeway so I could head up to the Yarra from Box Hill though it's kilometre after
kilometre of nothingness, then a shocking part where just a wire fence separates cyclists from the
freeway. Now I find it better to just head up Whitehorse Rd and take the outer circle. Only problem
is crossing the freeway at Chandler Hwy, it's the most hostile place on earth. Typical job of the
1970s road engineer.

As for whether it's a fight BV would win, it's got more chances of winning with BV's support than
without. Probably the rea reason why BV aren't going out against freeways is because of their
VicRoads/DoI funding. All we have against freeways at the moment is really the Public Transport
Users Association (very effective for it's size), even EV can't be trusted (with John McPherson
going out in support of Tollroads!).

--
Jeremy Lunn Melbourne, Australia Homepage: austux.netaustux.netOpen ↗ jabber.org.aujabber.org.auOpen ↗ - the
next generation of Instant Messaging.

"Jeremy Lunn" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Tim Jones said:

That is not a fight they are going to win any time soon. But putting

through

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

legislation that makes it necessary to have bikepaths tagging to

freeways

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

means that there is an easy, safe method to cover decent distance to

make

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

bicycle travel more attractive rather than it just being about

recreation.

Quoted message said:

Freeways tend not to be direct enough for serious bicycle travel. For example if you want to head
from Box Hill North to the City, if you took the path alongside the freeway you'd be going via
Bulleen. Barring the noise and unsightliness, it can be okay for recreational riding though the
uninspiring nature is very off putting.

Well, I'm probably in a different possition to most. I was in a position to select a home close to
the SE Freeway bike path, and for me, it is a quick ride into the city.

For me it now takes 20 - 25 minutes to get into the city from Ashburton.

I certainly do not like the portion of the new path where you get to look at traffic through a
perspex screen.

Quoted message said:

I used tot ake the freeway so I could head up to the Yarra from Box Hill though it's kilometre
after kilometre of nothingness, then a shocking part where just a wire fence separates cyclists
from the freeway. Now I find it better to just head up Whitehorse Rd and take the outer circle.
Only problem is crossing the freeway at Chandler Hwy, it's the most hostile place on earth.
Typical job of the 1970s road engineer.

Haven't seen that part.

Quoted message said:

As for whether it's a fight BV would win, it's got more chances of winning with BV's support than
without. Probably the rea reason why BV aren't going out against freeways is because of their
VicRoads/DoI funding. All we have against freeways at the moment is really the Public Transport
Users Association (very effective for it's size), even EV can't be trusted (with John McPherson
going out in support of Tollroads!).

Fair 'nuf

Tim

Quoted message said:

Chris Baird said:

Confused by the actual state of the (NSW) law, after reading and being told lots of conflicting
information, and finding nothing on Google, the Australian Road Rules, or the RTA's site...

So.. what is the legality of riding a bike on an expressway? (citing references?)

The F6 from Wollongong to Sydney has a cycle lane (well a hard shoulder wih bikes painted on it.

Sections of the F6 from Yallah to Berkely are also cycleways - then there is a section where cycles
are banned because a third lane took up the hard shoulder.