Exercise

Maybe this site can help you out:
home.earthlink.netindex.htmOpen ↗

Thad O <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

I used to go to a gym, but it turned out that I spent more
time driving to and fro then I did in the gym. Checking
the situation out, there are no gyms which are
conveniently located. I live in a group environment, so
noisy equipment is out, and since I have very very little
room ( not enough free room to do an exercise video ) a
lot of equipment is out.

Bike to work! And/or to do errands. That way its easy to fit
in both exercise and a job. If you have access to a pool and
enjoy swimming, swimming can be good for upper body. Both
biking and swimming should be relatively easy on your body
in terms of injuries, if you want to take up something more
impact-oriented like running you'll have to be more careful.

If you have enough room to do situps and pushups those are
good for overall strength. You don't need fancy gym machines
to get fit, and some inexpensive handheld barbells can
provide some resistance in various exercises.

A lot of exercise comes down to just do it. Yes you could
use X equipment or Y equipment etc. but a lot of it just
comes down to personal preference, and often simple and low-
tech will work just as well or better than expensive and high-
tech but it gadgety motivates you then go for it.

"bj" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

True, the bands only go so "high" in resistance, but you
can double up on them, and also they get more resisty as
they are stretched. I've done

both,

Quoted message said:

to get tweaks on the resistance I need for a particular
exercise.

I hadn't thought to double them. Thanks!

--
Type 2 users.bestweb.net~jboveOpen ↗

Thad O said:

A while ago I asking for help in designing in an exercise
program. The responses ranged from awful to OK with
nothing really great. ... But before I go on, there were a
few answers which were... well stupid. I'm tired of the
people who post things which are wrong ( in this case some
were plain dangerous ). I guess some guys have to make up
for other... shortcomings, by pulling a Cliff Claven act.
... this advice was especially stupid. ... The other
stupid claim contends that upper body conditioning is not
useful in bicycling. ... I bought it from Turin Cycling,
one of the premier bicycling shops in the Chicagoland
area. They know how to fit a bike. I've been riding for 30
years. I know how to fit a bike. ... As for gripping
handlebars too tightly; I've been cycling for thirty
years. I know how to grip a bike. Not only do I have all
my experience ( once again 30 years ), ... In the end, I
believe that the idiots that put this forward, are just
plain lazy and don't want to do any upper body
conditioning. ... My question(s):

I used to go to a gym, but it turned out that I spent more
time driving to and fro then I did in the gym. ... Like
going out and doing a century ( which means 100 miles in
one day/trip ). ... I gotten to the point where you have a
rough idea of what I want. Let me now state the main
question that I am asking.

*** Can people recommend books/web sites/anything else
that will help me design an exercise plan that meets the
above criteria, plus a few other things below. ***

Umm, are you a jerk? 'Cause you seem like you might be a
jerk, and very likely an ignoramus as well.

You spent a whole lot of text bloviating before asking your
little question. You dissed advice you got for free in an
unrestricted public forum, from people who were not in any
way obliged to answer you. You boasted repeatedly of your
vast experience, then asked a question it's difficult to
imagine an experienced cyclist asking.

It seems to me that the developmental exercise you could
most benefit from is social and not physical:

See how long you can hold a face-to-face conversation with
somebody _without_ venturing your opinion, relating one of
your experiences, or otherwise talking about yourself.

Try to discover, for each person you interact with,
something that they understand much better than you do.

Reflect on the social and conversational equivalents of
yielding the right-of-way, and exercise these options at
every convenient opportunity.

Good luck getting the exercise you need!

Chalo Colina

Chalo said:

Thad O said:

A while ago I asking for help in designing in an exercise
program. The responses ranged from awful to OK with
nothing really great. ... But before I go on, there were
a few answers which were... well stupid. I'm tired of the
people who post things which are wrong ( in this case
some were plain dangerous ). I guess some guys have to
make up for other... shortcomings, by pulling a Cliff
Claven act. ... this advice was especially stupid.
{snippage}

Quoted message said:

Umm, are you a jerk? 'Cause you seem like you might be a
jerk, and very likely an ignoramus as well.

You spent a whole lot of text bloviating before asking
your little question. You dissed advice you got for free
in an unrestricted public forum, from people who were not
in any way obliged to answer you. You boasted repeatedly
of your vast experience, then asked a question it's
difficult to imagine an experienced cyclist asking.

It seems to me that the developmental exercise you could
most benefit from is social and not physical:

See how long you can hold a face-to-face conversation with
somebody _without_ venturing your opinion, relating one of
your experiences, or otherwise talking about yourself.

Try to discover, for each person you interact with,
something that they understand much better than you do.

Reflect on the social and conversational equivalents of
yielding the right-of-way, and exercise these options at
every convenient opportunity.

Good luck getting the exercise you need!

Bravisimo. Right On. Friggin' A.

Bill "that rocked" S.

MisNomer said:

The best excercise for building up endurance on a bike is
to ride the bike!

Bulshit. If the "best way" is to ride, then riding alone
should be sufficient. So why does Lance Armostring waste his
time with weight training?
lancearmstrong.comindex.htmlOpen ↗

Thad O said:

MisNomer said:

The best excercise for building up endurance on a bike is
to ride the bike!

Bulshit. If the "best way" is to ride, then riding alone
should be sufficient. So why does Lance Armostring waste
his time with weight training?

Because multiple days of racing consumes muscle. Building up
a base of muscle in the pre and early season means he can
lose muscle mass as the season progresses without losing
critical strength. At the end of the Tour, riders are weaker
than when they started, but their endurance level is
(typically) higher.

Loss of muscle mass is not an issue for most riders, who
don't put in the long days of racing that a pro does.
Resistance training has other benefits for cyclists, such as
core strength to prevent injuries, but it doesn't build
endurance. For building endurance, there's no substitute for
getting out and riding.
--
terry morse Palo Alto, CA bike.terrymorse.combike.terrymorse.comOpen ↗

Thad O said:

MisNomer said:

The best excercise for building up endurance on a bike is
to ride the bike!

Bulshit. If the "best way" is to ride, then riding alone
should be sufficient. So why does Lance Armostring waste
his time with weight training?
lancearmstrong.comindex.htmlOpen ↗

So if you've got all the answers, Obnoxio, then why do you
post a question seeking advice and/or references in the
first place?

Bill "Armostring?!? Bet he could kick YOUR ass" S.

On Fri, 18 Jun 2004 04:41:06 GMT, Thad O
<[email hidden]> wrote:

Snip large quantity of abusive, self delusional [censored] ...

Quoted message said:

So now a few questions/comments on some of the more
positive things that came from my original post.

While I don't disagree with the general idea of doing Yoga,
it seems much of the time the exercises are just thrown
out. I'm looking for a plan ( comprehensive workout/with a
good rotation of exercises ). I suspect Tai Chi might be
better for me though.

Someone suggested I get weights ( 1 -10 lbs ) or
"straps"/bands. Can someone talk about the
advantages/disadvantages of weights vs bands? For weights,
which are preferable dumbells type weights, or the kind
that attach to your wrist/ankles?

Get the kind that attach to your wrists, then just continue
your normal daily routine with just one small change. Change
hands every half hour. That will provide you with a form of
vigorous exercise twenty-four hours per day. More than
enough to sort your problems out.

Cheers

David

lol.

take care Liz

J David Anderson said:

Get the kind that attach to your wrists, then just continue
your normal daily routine with just one small change.
Change hands every half hour. That will provide you with a
form of vigorous exercise twenty-four hours per day. More
than enough to sort your problems out.

Cheers

David

Lance also doesn't post to usenet. Sell your computer and
ride your bike.

take care Liz

Thad O said:

Bulshit. If the "best way" is to ride, then riding alone
should be sufficient. So why does Lance Armostring waste
his time with weight training?
lancearmstrong.comindex.htmlOpen ↗

"Thad O" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

MisNomer said:

The best excercise for building up endurance on a bike is
to ride the

bike!

Quoted message said:

Bulshit.

It's "[censored]" btw, not that it matters. What DOES matter
is how long will

anything.

Beav (as usual, flameproof)

Thad O said:

MisNomer said:

The best excercise for building up endurance on a bike is
to ride the bike!

Bulshit. If the "best way" is to ride, then riding alone
should be sufficient. So why does Lance Armostring waste
his time with weight training?

Lance "Armostring" takes extreme measures because he wants
to win the world's premier professional cycling race, every
time he competes in
it.

Others who have other priorities can reach an elite level of
fitness by cycling alone. Consider Freddie Hoffman, who rode
over a million miles in the 20th century and looks likely to
do it again in the 21st:

From miles4melanoma.comhoffman.htmlOpen ↗ --

"Freddie Hoffman is one of the most accomplished cyclists in
the world. He could kick your ass... His lifetime odometer
stands at an astonishing 1,202,625 miles. His top tube reads
'To the Moon and Back, Twice.'"

Lance _wishes_ he were such a badass.

Chalo Colina

On Fri, 18 Jun 2004 04:41:06 GMT, Thad O >But before I go
on, there were a few answers which were... well

Quoted message said:

stupid. I'm tired of the people who post things which
are wrong ( in this case some were plain dangerous ). I
guess some

No offense but, this is usenet, and such is it's nature. The
skill required to usenet has nothing to do with how to use a
browser or newsreader, but rather how to seperate the wheat
from the chaff.

Also, I'm not defending anyone's point of view but even the
most highly regarded experts in the field of exercise (and
nutrition... all sciences really) often disagree wildly with
one another's 'stupid claims'.

Bottom line - usenet can provide you with 'food for though',
the opinons and thoghts for others, and point you in the
right direction to look, or point out something you might
have overlooked, but you still need to do some research and
make up your own mind.

Quoted message said:

guys have to make up for other... shortcomings, by pulling
a Cliff Claven act. So, before I get to my question I am
going to call those people on their stupidity. For those
who want to skip ahead, I will be marking the end of this
part by <===========>.

Of the stupid claims, probably the most stupid claim is
that climbing stairs is the same exercise as using a
stairmaster. Aside from the fact that stairclimbing alone
is not going to promote *all around* fitness ( thus not
answering my question, just some garbage someone spews to
show how *smart* they are ), stairs are not the same as a (
high quality ) stairmaster. Any orthopedist will tell you
that stairs produce much more wear and tear on the knees.
Given that bicycling can also create lots of wear and tear
on the knees ( mostly for people whose knees are already in
bad shape ), this advice was especially stupid. Hopefully
people googling the original post will realize just how
stupid these poster are, before they blow out their knees.

The other stupid claim contends that upper body
conditioning is not useful in bicycling. Two arguments were
used to explain my upper body fatigue (when riding):
gripping the handlebars too tightly and a poor bicycle fit.
Both stupid for simple reasons.

Frankly I know that the fit if my bike is not as good as it
could be, because my body is misproportioned. But it is as
good as it is going to get ( mainly because I don't have
the time to get a custom fit ). I bought it from Turin
Cycling, one of the premier bicycling shops in the
Chicagoland area. They know how to fit a bike. I've been
riding for 30 years. I know how to fit a bike. Just before
I bought the bike I reviewed books and articles on fitting
bikes to make sure that I remembered things right.

Even many cycling experts disagree on how to 'properly'
fit a bike.

Quoted message said:

As for gripping handlebars too tightly; I've been cycling
for thirty years. I know how to grip a bike. Not only do I
have all my experience ( once again 30 years ), but in that
time I did a lot of reading, talking to other cyclists, etc
to improve my form. From the way I have ridden in the past,
it seemed like I pretty much had it down, being able to
outride ( both in speed and distance ) most of my friends.

Though remember, you're 30 years older now than when you
started. Your body is very different now... especially the
amount of muscle mass you have.

Quoted message said:

Fact is that bicycling requires but does not create upper
body strength. I checked out several books and they all
agree on this point. These books range from publications by

That simply doesn't make sense. Anything that 'requires'
strength would therefore create strength through repeated
use. That's how the body works.

Quoted message said:

"Bicycling" to Eugene Sloane's "Complete Book of
Bicycling". The books are quite specific, the lion's share
of your weight is carried by your arms. Can't remember the
number that they gave as a percentage, but I would say that
at least 60% of your weight is on your arms. ( For those
who don't know, but are curious, that's because the more
weight on your butt the more impediment there is to smooth
pedalling. I know not a lot, but how much do you gain by
shaving your legs? )

In the end, I believe that the idiots that put this
forward, are just plain lazy and don't want to do any upper
body conditioning. So instead they make excuses about why
it's not necessary. Even to those who are willing to do it.

<===========>

My question(s):

I used to go to a gym, but it turned out that I spent more
time driving to and fro then I did in the gym. Checking
the situation out, there are no gyms which are
conveniently located. I live in a group environment, so
noisy equipment is out, and since I have very very little
room ( not enough free room to do an exercise video ) a
lot of equipment is out.

On top of that, the last few years have been rough
healthwise so I need to basically start from the bottom. In
particular, I want to build up to the point where I can do
much more serious cycling again. Like going out and doing a
century ( which means 100 miles in one day/trip ).

Another thing that I am looking for is balance (and
comprehensiveness). In the past I've eschewed balance and
it cost me. Ignore the Achilles's tendon and cause calf
problems. Ignore the ILTB ( though I really don't know how
to not ignore
it ) and wind up with knee problems. So I'm looking for a
workout that will develop me in a balanced way.

Cycling is a great exercise.

Quoted message said:

To quote one book: "Fitness is many things to many
people. To us you are as fit as the weakest link in your
fitness chain."

I gotten to the point where you have a rough idea of what I
want. Let me now state the main question that I am asking.

*** Can people recommend books/web sites/anything else that
will help me design an exercise plan that meets the above
criteria, plus a few other things below. ***

The cost of a consultation with a personal trainer (or two)
would probably be well worth it.

Quoted message said:

The things I expect such a plan to do is to enable me to
build up suppleness/flexibility, strength and endurance.

What you're looking for is 'cross-training'... you might
want to consider:
1) conventional cycling
2) stationary cycling
3) swimming
4) walking
5) strength training with machines (total gym)
6) strength training with free weights (powerbloks)
7) body weight exercises
8) martial arts

Putting it all together? That's your job. With the help of a
personal trainer. Google 'cross-training for cycling', Jack
Lalanne, and *cyclo-cross* training for a start.

physsportsmed.comcross.htmOpen ↗ amazon.comamazon.comOpen ↗
/0880114932/104-2839940-4767957?v=glanceamazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0764552376/qid=1087845776/sr=ka-
2/ref=pd_ka_2/104-2839940-4767957

Quoted message said:

It should allow me to miss a few days.( As few as possible,
but when you get older, there are these things called
jobs...) It should also allow substitutions of exercises, (
So if I can't do exercise 1 to work on a bicep because of
injury, I do exercise 29 instead. ) and create rotations (
where some muscles are given a rest on some days ) so that
I don't overexercise.

I think you're making this more complicated than it needs to
be. You should work all of your muscles. If one is sore,
rest it until it's better. Read up on 'superslow' for this,
especially if you are injury prone (google Fred Hahn, The
Power of 10, and Ken Hutchinson). Also, speak with Steve
Friedies <sp> about kettle-bell-type workouts. Check out
misc.fitness.weights.

Thad O said:

Frankly I know that the fit if my bike is not as good as it
could be, because my body is misproportioned. But it is as
good as it is going to get ( mainly because I don't have
the time to get a custom fit ). I bought it from Turin
Cycling, one of the premier bicycling shops in the
Chicagoland area. They know how to fit a bike. I've been
riding for 30 years. I know how to fit a bike. Just before
I bought the bike I reviewed books and articles on fitting
bikes to make sure that I remembered things right.

Just one more point worth noting as that most pro-shops use
a 'fit-kit' to fit you to a bike. They take a lot of
measurements (not just your height, but your inseam, arm
length, etc.) This 'points them' in the right direction at
least as far as frame size and adjustments... however, those
adjustments can easily get 'out of adjustment' over time, or
at least need a lot of fine tuning. Here are some crude, but
easy checks that you can do yourself, and might be helpful
to check the fit (from Men's Health):

1. Frame Size - in stocking feet, straddle the bike's top
tube. Crotch should be 1-2 inches above for a road bike,
3-4 for a mountain bike <again, this is a *very* crude
method, better to go with the 'fit-kit'... and I'd say
closer to 1" clearance, not 2... though the rest of the
tips are good...>

2. Handlebar Height - The top bar should be 1-2 inches below
the top of the sadle.

3. Handlebar Reach - When you're pedaling your elbows should
be slightly bent. If they're fully extended, the bike's
stem and/or top tupe may be too long. Elbows significanly
bent means the stem and/or top tube may be too short

4. Back - for road riding, strive for a straight back
(parallel to the ground).

5. Saddle Height - each knee should be <just> slightly bent
at the bottom of the pedal stroke

6. Saddle Tilt - eithe level, or nose slighly down

7. Pedaling Technique - think 'circles', not squares

8. Feet - ball should be directly over pedal axle

Hope that helps (you might also consider a hybrid, and with
more comfort features, and a more upright seating
position... though of course more wind resistance)

Thad O said:

In particular I wish to strenthen the secondary and
tertiary muscles used to support these activitys,
especially to make up for over development of the
principle muscles.

You could buy:

dragondoor.comb10.htmlOpen ↗

Or just get a $150 300lb Olympic set and deadlift and
overhead press for 5 sets of 5 reps three times a week.

--
Scott Johnson / scottjohnson at kc dot rr dot com

Thad O said:

If the "best way" is to ride, then riding alone should be
sufficient. So why does Lance Armostring waste his time
with weight training?
lancearmstrong.comindex.htmlOpen ↗

These are absolutely the wrong newsgroups to be asking about
weight training.

Try misc.fitness.weights.

--
Scott Johnson / scottjohnson at kc dot rr dot com

my specialist the other day told me to start swimming
again... It will keep the muscles in my legs from
becoming mush.

Patricia "Thad O" <[email hidden]>
wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

A while ago I asking for help in designing in an exercise
program. The responses ranged from awful to OK with nothing
really great. Some of the responses raised more questions.
So I thought I would repost my question. Clarifying it, and
expanding on it.

I've also added misc.fitness.misc. After looking at the
answers to the questions, I realized that while the
diabetes and bicycling were a good place to ask my
question, alone they were not able to provide an overall
perspective which I believe this group can provide.

But before I go on, there were a few answers which were...
well stupid. I'm tired of the people who post things which
are wrong ( in this case some were plain dangerous ). I
guess some guys have to make up for other... shortcomings,
by pulling a Cliff Claven act. So, before I get to my
question I am going to call those people on their
stupidity. For those who want to skip ahead, I will be
marking the end of this part by <===========>.

Of the stupid claims, probably the most stupid claim is
that climbing stairs is the same exercise as using a
stairmaster. Aside from the fact that stairclimbing alone
is not going to promote *all around* fitness ( thus not
answering my question, just some garbage someone spews to
show how *smart* they are ), stairs are not the same as a
( high quality ) stairmaster. Any orthopedist will tell
you that stairs produce much more wear and tear on the
knees. Given that bicycling can also create lots of wear
and tear on the knees ( mostly for people whose knees are
already in bad shape ), this advice was especially stupid.
Hopefully people googling the original post will realize
just how stupid these poster are, before they blow out
their knees.

The other stupid claim contends that upper body
conditioning is not useful in bicycling. Two arguments
were used to explain my upper body fatigue (when riding):
gripping the handlebars too tightly and a poor bicycle
fit. Both stupid for simple reasons.

Frankly I know that the fit if my bike is not as good as
it could be, because my body is misproportioned. But it is
as good as it is going to get ( mainly because I don't
have the time to get a custom fit ). I bought it from
Turin Cycling, one of the premier bicycling shops in the
Chicagoland area. They know how to fit a bike. I've been
riding for 30 years. I know how to fit a bike. Just before
I bought the bike I reviewed books and articles on fitting
bikes to make sure that I remembered things right.

As for gripping handlebars too tightly; I've been cycling
for thirty years. I know how to grip a bike. Not only do I
have all my experience ( once again 30 years ), but in
that time I did a lot of reading, talking to other
cyclists, etc to improve my form. From the way I have
ridden in the past, it seemed like I pretty much had it
down, being able to outride ( both in speed and distance )
most of my friends.

Fact is that bicycling requires but does not create upper
body strength. I checked out several books and they all
agree on this point. These books range from publications
by "Bicycling" to Eugene Sloane's "Complete Book of
Bicycling". The books are quite specific, the lion's share
of your weight is carried by your arms. Can't remember the
number that they gave as a percentage, but I would say
that at least 60% of your weight is on your arms. ( For
those who don't know, but are curious, that's because the
more weight on your butt the more impediment there is to
smooth pedalling. I know not a lot, but how much do you
gain by shaving your legs? )

In the end, I believe that the idiots that put this
forward, are just plain lazy and don't want to do any
upper body conditioning. So instead they make excuses
about why it's not necessary. Even to those who are
willing to do it.

<===========>

My question(s):

I used to go to a gym, but it turned out that I spent more
time driving to and fro then I did in the gym. Checking
the situation out, there are no gyms which are
conveniently located. I live in a group environment, so
noisy equipment is out, and since I have very very little
room ( not enough free room to do an exercise video ) a
lot of equipment is out.

On top of that, the last few years have been rough
healthwise so I need to basically start from the bottom.
In particular, I want to build up to the point where I can
do much more serious cycling again. Like going out and
doing a century ( which means 100 miles in one day/trip ).

Another thing that I am looking for is balance (and
comprehensiveness). In the past I've eschewed balance and
it cost me. Ignore the Achilles's tendon and cause calf
problems. Ignore the ILTB ( though I really don't know how
to not ignore
it ) and wind up with knee problems. So I'm looking for a
workout that will develop me in a balanced way.

To quote one book: "Fitness is many things to many
people. To us you are as fit as the weakest link in your
fitness chain."

I gotten to the point where you have a rough idea of
what I want. Let me now state the main question that I
am asking.

*** Can people recommend books/web sites/anything else
that will help me design an exercise plan that meets the
above criteria, plus a few other things below. ***

The things I expect such a plan to do is to enable me to
build up suppleness/flexibility, strength and endurance.

It should allow me to miss a few days.( As few as
possible, but when you get older, there are these things
called jobs...) It should also allow substitutions of
exercises, ( So if I can't do exercise 1 to work on a
bicep because of injury, I do exercise 29 instead. ) and
create rotations ( where some muscles are given a rest on
some days ) so that I don't overexercise.

So now a few questions/comments on some of the more
positive things that came from my original post.

While I don't disagree with the general idea of doing
Yoga, it seems much of the time the exercises are just
thrown out. I'm looking for a plan ( comprehensive
workout/with a good rotation of exercises ). I suspect Tai
Chi might be better for me though.

Someone suggested I get weights ( 1 -10 lbs ) or
"straps"/bands. Can someone talk about the
advantages/disadvantages of weights vs bands? For weights,
which are preferable dumbells type weights, or the kind
that attach to your wrist/ankles?

A final comment. Someone recommended books written by
Joyce Vendral. I've checked out a couple in the library,
and they seem to be more focused to women. Also I'm a
little put off by the way she spammed some of her books
on Amazon.

Thanks.

Patricia1966wa said:

my specialist the other day told me to start swimming
again... It will keep the muscles in my legs from
becoming mush.

If that's your goal, and you can walk, walking is much
better for leg muscle development than swimming. As is
cycling.
--
terry morse Palo Alto, CA bike.terrymorse.combike.terrymorse.comOpen ↗

In article <[email hidden]>,

Thad O said:

*** Can people recommend books/web sites/anything else
that will help me design an exercise plan that meets the
above criteria, plus a few other things below. ***

The things I expect such a plan to do is to enable me to
build up suppleness/flexibility, strength and endurance.

I just spent today shoveling & wheelbarrowing busted
concrete and landscaping gravel. And I feel good! Although a
little stiff just south of the tuchas.

Quoted message said:

It should allow me to miss a few days.

Temp labour consignment work. You can elect to go, or
forego. Plus some other contract stuff, and some itinerant
farm/ranch work.

Quoted message said:

but when you get older, there are these things called
jobs...)

Time and health are more important than income-sources. One
can make money any time one wants, but your time is here &
gone. And health is more functionally dependent on the time
rather than the money you put into it. You can spend money
putting time into health & fitness, or you can make money by
putting time into it. But I guess that would be too stupid.
Or at least, too hard.

But, Jesus Murphy -- developing one's strength to
comfortably ride in the drops without becoming sway-backed
ain't rocket surgery!

This world is replete with fat-walleted, lily-handed wusses
who'd rather pay the money than do the work.

Strong cycling is pretty much all in the quads anyways.

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I'm really at: tkeats [curlicue] vcn [point] bc [point] ca