Excellent news

benjo maso said:

Excellent news for the anti-doping hunters. Their tireless efforts are
beginning to have effects. The german research bureau IFM has calculated
that international TV viewing figures for cycling races have dropped 47 %
within a year.The main victim was the Ronde van Vlaanderen (77 %). According
to the bureau, it means that the commercial value of cycling dropped 52 %
since last season, a trend which will continue in the next few month. The
main reason? Doping scandals, like Floyd Landis in the Tour, the operation
Puerto, etc. Well done, mister Pound and friends! Just another little effort
and cycling is saved!

Benjo

AFAIK, it has not hurt American football or baseball. Obviously I
have no way to know how this plays out on European TV, or how you draw
cause and effect.
Maybe they're all mesmerized by the election in France.

Best,
Steve

--
Mark & Steven Bornfeld DDS
http://www.dentaltwins.com
Brooklyn, NY
718-258-5001

In article <[email hidden]>,

benjo maso said:

Excellent news for the anti-doping hunters. Their tireless efforts are
beginning to have effects. The german research bureau IFM has calculated
that international TV viewing figures for cycling races have dropped 47 %
within a year.The main victim was the Ronde van Vlaanderen (77 %). According
to the bureau, it means that the commercial value of cycling dropped 52 %
since last season, a trend which will continue in the next few month. The
main reason? Doping scandals, like Floyd Landis in the Tour, the operation
Puerto, etc. Well done, mister Pound and friends! Just another little effort
and cycling is saved!

Hey Benjo:

I'll be a fan of pro cycling right down to the point when it devolves to
Cat 1s racing industrial park criteriums for a pair of nice sunglasses.

But I've realized that my true enjoyment of the sport comes from being a
participant, a volunteer, a follower of local amateurs, and the go-to
guy in my club for bizarre mechanical concepts.

I think this is a major difference in how cycling works in North America
and Europe. Here, it's almost entirely a participant sport, plus a
remnant of spectators who watch the Tour post-Lance.

In Europe, it's totally normal to be a cycling fan who doesn't have any
interest in actually riding other than a shopping bike to the market.

In a way, this makes North American cycling a little more robust: as the
Euro pro circuit rips itself apart over a combination of power politics
and doping scandals that now seem to be a witch hunt featuring actual
witches, the effects on this side of the water are peripheral at best.

Meanwhile, the growth of local grassroots cycling is so vigorous that
the big complaints are the field sizes. If present trends continue, we
will probably have to split the Cat 4 and Cat 5 fields, which have
traditionally raced as a 4/5 pack in almost all local races. Either
that, or field limits.

I don't think the quantity of amateur bike racing is quite where it is
in Europe yet, but amateurism has a lot to recommend it.

I'm cheering for Krabbé,

--
Ryan Cousineau [email hidden] http://www.wiredcola.com/
"I don't want kids who are thinking about going into mathematics
to think that they have to take drugs to succeed." -Paul Erdos

Mark & Steven Bornfeld said:

benjo maso said:

Excellent news for the anti-doping hunters. Their tireless efforts are
beginning to have effects. The german research bureau IFM has calculated
that international TV viewing figures for cycling races have dropped 47 %
within a year.The main victim was the Ronde van Vlaanderen (77 %). According
to the bureau, it means that the commercial value of cycling dropped 52 %
since last season, a trend which will continue in the next few month. The
main reason? Doping scandals, like Floyd Landis in the Tour, the operation
Puerto, etc. Well done, mister Pound and friends! Just another little effort
and cycling is saved!

Quoted message said:

Benjo

AFAIK, it has not hurt American football or baseball. Obviously I
have no way to know how this plays out on European TV, or how you draw
cause and effect.
Maybe they're all mesmerized by the election in France.

Best,
Steve

--
Mark & Steven Bornfeld DDShttp://www.dentaltwins.com
Brooklyn, NY
718-258-5001- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Hey Steve
I don't think you can even begin to compare the way US pro sports
have treated doping and the disaster that is being inflicted on
cycling. It's just a brutal constant drumbeat that they are ALL doping
scumbags that we haven't caught yet. If you repeat any lie loud enough
and long enough people beging to believe it. Then when you add in some
truth and grandstanding politicians and wannabe politicians it turns
into a total disaster.
With the fanbase and television ratings shrinking drastically the
sponsors are going to start pulling out and it's due IMO to the
crusade, and I mean that word in it's nastiest sense, by Pound in
particular and a handful of overzealous prosecutors. There's been more
tabloid type smearing and garbage for less results in cycling than in
anything but the Duke rape case.
Personally I think Pound wants to kill cycling totally. If he was
serious about doping overall he'd be raising just as much stink to get
the soccer players who were implicated in Puerto. Notice he hasn't
gone off the deep end about soccer in any way.
Bill C

"benjo maso" <[email hidden]> wrote in
news:[email hidden]:

Quoted message said:

Excellent news for the anti-doping hunters. Their tireless efforts are
beginning to have effects. The german research bureau IFM has
calculated that international TV viewing figures for cycling races
have dropped 47 % within a year.The main victim was the Ronde van
Vlaanderen (77 %). According to the bureau, it means that the
commercial value of cycling dropped 52 % since last season, a trend
which will continue in the next few month. The main reason? Doping
scandals, like Floyd Landis in the Tour, the operation Puerto, etc.
Well done, mister Pound and friends! Just another little effort and
cycling is saved!

This is also excellent news for the cycling fans that remain. It means
that [censored] Pound is going to have to find another target for his crusade
because he won't get much press coverage for busting more cyclists. So
now that he has perfected his "methods", he can move on to a bigger, more
high profile target. Look out, soccer!

Bad news in the short term for riders, because this should mean lower
sponsorship dollars available for a while. But things will return to
normal soon enough, and with Pound focusing on a bigger target he won't
have time to come back after the little fish.

NS
WADA strategic planning office

Bill C said:

With the fanbase and television ratings shrinking drastically the
sponsors are going to start pulling out and it's due IMO to the
crusade, and I mean that word in it's nastiest sense, by Pound in
particular and a handful of overzealous prosecutors. There's been more
tabloid type smearing and garbage for less results in cycling than in
anything but the Duke rape case.
Personally I think Pound wants to kill cycling totally. If he was
serious about doping overall he'd be raising just as much stink to get
the soccer players who were implicated in Puerto. Notice he hasn't
gone off the deep end about soccer in any way.

And the UCI is committing hara-kiri by cooperating in the hatchet job.

Bill C said:

Hey Steve
I don't think you can even begin to compare the way US pro sports
have treated doping and the disaster that is being inflicted on
cycling. It's just a brutal constant drumbeat that they are ALL doping
scumbags that we haven't caught yet. If you repeat any lie loud enough
and long enough people beging to believe it.

dumbass,

the situation doesn't change because you and the other jock-sniffers
like benjo are so eager to coddle the athletes.

the doping problem is self-inflicted, cycling is a sport that
apparently can't take care of itself and made the concious decision to
become WADA compliant at a time when the many of the big stars
depended doping. i wouldn't call them scumbags -- they are just doing
what is considered customary in their profession.

even a boy scout with lean palmares like andreu admitted to using
EPO.

it's not a case or lies and unjust practices like you keep crying
about. puerto uncovered all the cicumstantial evidence of doping.
payments, photos, bags of blood. so there was no doubt in my mind that
the ullrich dna would come back a match.

Quoted message said:

With the fanbase and television ratings shrinking drastically the
sponsors are going to start pulling out and it's due IMO to the
crusade, and I mean that word in it's nastiest sense, by Pound in
particular and a handful of overzealous prosecutors. There's been more
tabloid type smearing and garbage for less results in cycling than in
anything but the Duke rape case.

except all the doping cases are catching guilty riders. except in the
case of puerto it didn't yield one of three ways a rider can be
declared guilty : positve tests, admission or guilt or posession of
doping substances.

you are saying those who are fighting doping should stop because the
negative publicity is affecting the sport... well yeah, and the SEC
inestigating Enron hurt investor confidence, because it should.

On Apr 28, 3:18 pm, "[email hidden]" <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Bill C said:

Hey Steve
I don't think you can even begin to compare the way US pro sports
have treated doping and the disaster that is being inflicted on
cycling. It's just a brutal constant drumbeat that they are ALL doping
scumbags that we haven't caught yet. If you repeat any lie loud enough
and long enough people beging to believe it.

dumbass,

the situation doesn't change because you and the other jock-sniffers
like benjo are so eager to coddle the athletes.

the doping problem is self-inflicted, cycling is a sport that
apparently can't take care of itself and made the concious decision to
become WADA compliant at a time when the many of the big stars
depended doping. i wouldn't call them scumbags -- they are just doing
what is considered customary in their profession.

even a boy scout with lean palmares like andreu admitted to using
EPO.

it's not a case or lies and unjust practices like you keep crying
about. puerto uncovered all the cicumstantial evidence of doping.
payments, photos, bags of blood. so there was no doubt in my mind that
the ullrich dna would come back a match.

Quoted message said:

With the fanbase and television ratings shrinking drastically the
sponsors are going to start pulling out and it's due IMO to the
crusade, and I mean that word in it's nastiest sense, by Pound in
particular and a handful of overzealous prosecutors. There's been more
tabloid type smearing and garbage for less results in cycling than in
anything but the Duke rape case.

except all the doping cases are catching guilty riders. except in the
case of puerto it didn't yield one of three ways a rider can be
declared guilty : positve tests, admission or guilt or posession of
doping substances.

you are saying those who are fighting doping should stop because the
negative publicity is affecting the sport... well yeah, and the SEC
inestigating Enron hurt investor confidence, because it should.

How about actually proving something. Yeah, out of all the Puerto
mess they got Ullrich. Nice.
You could just as easily use your arguments to defend selectively
prosecuting minorities, racial profiling, etc...
Injustice and selective enforcement, along with attacks based around
stereotypes being promoted by those in authority are garbage and I'm
shocked that you are arguing in favor of them.
Bill C

Bill C said:

On Apr 28, 3:18 pm, "[email hidden]" <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

On Apr 28, 1:52 pm, Bill C <[email hidden]> wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Hey Steve
I don't think you can even begin to compare the way US pro sports
have treated doping and the disaster that is being inflicted on
cycling. It's just a brutal constant drumbeat that they are ALL doping
scumbags that we haven't caught yet. If you repeat any lie loud enough
and long enough people beging to believe it.

Quoted message said:

dumbass,

Quoted message said:

the situation doesn't change because you and the other jock-sniffers
like benjo are so eager to coddle the athletes.

Quoted message said:

the doping problem is self-inflicted, cycling is a sport that
apparently can't take care of itself and made the concious decision to
become WADA compliant at a time when the many of the big stars
depended doping. i wouldn't call them scumbags -- they are just doing
what is considered customary in their profession.

Quoted message said:

even a boy scout with lean palmares like andreu admitted to using
EPO.

Quoted message said:

it's not a case or lies and unjust practices like you keep crying
about. puerto uncovered all the cicumstantial evidence of doping.
payments, photos, bags of blood. so there was no doubt in my mind that
the ullrich dna would come back a match.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

With the fanbase and television ratings shrinking drastically the
sponsors are going to start pulling out and it's due IMO to the
crusade, and I mean that word in it's nastiest sense, by Pound in
particular and a handful of overzealous prosecutors. There's been more
tabloid type smearing and garbage for less results in cycling than in
anything but the Duke rape case.

Quoted message said:

except all the doping cases are catching guilty riders. except in the
case of puerto it didn't yield one of three ways a rider can be
declared guilty : positve tests, admission or guilt or posession of
doping substances.

Quoted message said:

you are saying those who are fighting doping should stop because the
negative publicity is affecting the sport... well yeah, and the SEC
inestigating Enron hurt investor confidence, because it should.

How about actually proving something. Yeah, out of all the Puerto
mess they got Ullrich. Nice.
You could just as easily use your arguments to defend selectively
prosecuting minorities, racial profiling, etc...
Injustice and selective enforcement, along with attacks based around
stereotypes being promoted by those in authority are garbage and I'm
shocked that you are arguing in favor of them.
Bill C

dumbass,

a fundamental problem in your conceptualization is that you cannot
distinguish between the criminal justice system and the system for
enforcing the rules of the sport.

the criminal cases arising from OP was stopped dead because it was
determined that the actions were not considered to be aganst spanish
law. but if anyone looks at the evidence it is clear that many of the
named riders were doping. but cheating in cycling isn't against the
LAW, so that case will never be built. if one were to examine the
evidence of each case by case you would have a solid case for almost
all of the named riders.

sure, some rider's names were thrown into the mix just because they
were in fuentes' rolodex, but for most of the named riders there is
solid evidence that they were communicating with fuentes, visiting his
clinic and paying him for doping services.

that is why no one was the least bit surprised that ullrich's dna
matched the madrid blood bags.

unfortunately the puerto evidence cannot be used to sanction a rider
unless you can: get them to admit to doping, find them positive or
actually catch them with a trunkful of drugs.

so by your reckoning the '98 festina riders, millar or rumsas should
also not be sanctioned, since those riders never tested positve or
actually had drugs in their possession.

in these cases riders can always resort to absurd arguments like :
"storing my blood in an apartment in madrid doesn't indicate an
intention to cheat" or "the trunkful of EPO is for my mother-in-law"
and a large percetnage of cycling fans actually buy it. that is why
observers are cynical (though, the proposed revisions to the WADA code
would change this).

Mark & Steven Bornfeld said:

benjo maso said:

Excellent news for the anti-doping hunters. Their tireless efforts are
beginning to have effects. The german research bureau IFM has calculated
that international TV viewing figures for cycling races have dropped 47 %
within a year.The main victim was the Ronde van Vlaanderen (77 %). According
to the bureau, it means that the commercial value of cycling dropped 52 %
since last season, a trend which will continue in the next few month. The
main reason? Doping scandals, like Floyd Landis in the Tour, the operation
Puerto, etc. Well done, mister Pound and friends! Just another little effort
and cycling is saved!

Benjo

AFAIK, it has not hurt American football or baseball. Obviously I
have no way to know how this plays out on European TV, or how you draw
cause and effect.

Real pro sports, like Football and Baseball don't rewrite the record book or
change the result of a game. They don't undermine players and teams with
blanket accusations and innuendo. They don't visibly play favorites in drug
testing and they sure as hell don't leak results.

How can anybody follow a sport in which the results cannot be confirmed until
some obviously incompetent lab completes some obviously suspect test.

Ron

benjo maso said:

Excellent news for the anti-doping hunters. Their tireless efforts are
beginning to have effects. The german research bureau IFM has calculated
that international TV viewing figures for cycling races have dropped 47 %
within a year.The main victim was the Ronde van Vlaanderen (77 %). According
to the bureau, it means that the commercial value of cycling dropped 52 %
since last season, a trend which will continue in the next few month. The
main reason? Doping scandals, like Floyd Landis in the Tour, the operation
Puerto, etc. Well done, mister Pound and friends! Just another little effort
and cycling is saved!

Benjo

Thanks, but I already read this message, it was leaked to L'Equipe.

-ilan

In article <tFJYh.946$KP1.41@trnddc02>,

Mark & Steven Bornfeld said:

benjo maso said:

Excellent news for the anti-doping hunters. Their tireless efforts are
beginning to have effects. The german research bureau IFM has calculated
that international TV viewing figures for cycling races have dropped 47 %
within a year.The main victim was the Ronde van Vlaanderen (77 %). According
to the bureau, it means that the commercial value of cycling dropped 52 %
since last season, a trend which will continue in the next few month. The
main reason? Doping scandals, like Floyd Landis in the Tour, the operation
Puerto, etc. Well done, mister Pound and friends! Just another little effort
and cycling is saved!

AFAIK, it has not hurt American football or baseball. Obviously I
have no way to know how this plays out on European TV, or how you draw
cause and effect.
Maybe they're all mesmerized by the election in France.

A competent governing body repels power plays by the anti-doping
pirates, and runs a `clean' sport. FIFA is also competent: notice
all the futbollers named in operation puerto?

As mentioned elsewhere, there is not much hope if a national
government decides to put in an oar.

--
Michael Press

In article
<[email hidden]>,

Quoted post said:

in these cases riders can always resort to absurd arguments like :
"storing my blood in an apartment in madrid doesn't indicate an
intention to cheat" or "the trunkful of EPO is for my mother-in-law"
and a large percetnage of cycling fans actually buy it.

No, they do not. They mostly do not want doping crusades to
interfere with bicycle races.

--
Michael Press

Michael Press said:

In article
<[email hidden]>,

Quoted post said:

in these cases riders can always resort to absurd arguments like :
"storing my blood in an apartment in madrid doesn't indicate an
intention to cheat" or "the trunkful of EPO is for my mother-in-law"
and a large percetnage of cycling fans actually buy it.

No, they do not. They mostly do not want doping crusades to
interfere with bicycle races.

dumbass,

you are giving [censored] poud more credit than he deserves.

the innuendo of doping crusaders like [censored] pound, and even full on
verbal assault cannot cause the suspension of a rider or even launch
an investigation.

positive tests and police raids which turn up doping evidence (ie.
real evidence of cheating) on the other hand can.

On 28 Apr 2007 22:29:27 -0700, "[email hidden]" <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Michael Press said:

In article
<[email hidden]>,

Quoted post said:

in these cases riders can always resort to absurd arguments like :
"storing my blood in an apartment in madrid doesn't indicate an
intention to cheat" or "the trunkful of EPO is for my mother-in-law"
and a large percetnage of cycling fans actually buy it.

No, they do not. They mostly do not want doping crusades to
interfere with bicycle races.

dumbass,

you are giving [censored] poud more credit than he deserves.

the innuendo of doping crusaders like [censored] pound, and even full on
verbal assault cannot cause the suspension of a rider or even launch
an investigation.

positive tests and police raids which turn up doping evidence (ie.
real evidence of cheating) on the other hand can.

Some guy named Floyd has had positive tests that I really can't consider to be
evidence of cheating. Not him cheating anyway.

Ron

RonSonic said:

On 28 Apr 2007 22:29:27 -0700, "[email hidden]" <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Michael Press said:

In article
<[email hidden]>,

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

"[email hidden]" <[email hidden]> wrote:
> in these cases riders can always resort to absurd arguments like :
> "storing my blood in an apartment in madrid doesn't indicate an
> intention to cheat" or "the trunkful of EPO is for my mother-in-law"
> and a large percetnage of cycling fans actually buy it.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

No, they do not. They mostly do not want doping crusades to
interfere with bicycle races.

Quoted message said:

dumbass,

Quoted message said:

you are giving [censored] poud more credit than he deserves.

Quoted message said:

the innuendo of doping crusaders like [censored] pound, and even full on
verbal assault cannot cause the suspension of a rider or even launch
an investigation.

Quoted message said:

positive tests and police raids which turn up doping evidence (ie.
real evidence of cheating) on the other hand can.

Some guy named Floyd has had positive tests that I really can't consider to be
evidence of cheating. Not him cheating anyway.

dumbass,

what's exceptional about the floyd case is the vigor with which he's
fighting it.

do you forget those early statements about as an athlete he has
"naturally high testosterone"? oh how we laughed.

i believe -- the latest results for exogenous testosterone use that
is. but those tests are not grounds for suspension, so we have another
OJ case.

he is betting he can scrutinize the procedure enough to find some
technicality that will clear him.

In article
<[email hidden]>,

Quoted post said:

Michael Press said:

In article
<[email hidden]>,

Quoted post said:

in these cases riders can always resort to absurd arguments like :
"storing my blood in an apartment in madrid doesn't indicate an
intention to cheat" or "the trunkful of EPO is for my mother-in-law"
and a large percetnage of cycling fans actually buy it.

No, they do not. They mostly do not want doping crusades to
interfere with bicycle races.

dumbass,

you are giving [censored] poud more credit than he deserves.

Where did I attribute any of this to [censored] Pound necessarily.

Quoted message said:

the innuendo of doping crusaders like [censored] pound, and even full on
verbal assault cannot cause the suspension of a rider or even launch
an investigation.

How do you know?

Quoted message said:

positive tests and police raids which turn up doping evidence (ie.
real evidence of cheating) on the other hand can.

Most cycling fans do not even make these fine distinctions. They
simply do not want doping crusades to interfere with the sport.

--
Michael Press

in message <[email hidden]>, Bill C

(') said:

On Apr 28, 3:18 pm, "[email hidden]" <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

you are saying those who are fighting doping should stop because the
negative publicity is affecting the sport... well yeah, and the SEC
inestigating Enron hurt investor confidence, because it should.

How about actually proving something. Yeah, out of all the Puerto
mess they got Ullrich. Nice.

Indeed. Anyone who is found guilty of doping faces a two year suspension
(and a further two years out of the Pro Tour). Ivan Basso was suspended
before last year's TdF, and we've already heard that he's suspended from
this year's TdF. So as far as the premier event is concerned, he's already
served the full suspension before a shred of evidence against him has been
proven. So if - if - his DNA doesn't match the blood in the bag which is
labelled with a name that is not the name of his dog, who is going to
compensate him for his earnings in those two years which should have been
the peak of his career? Who is going to compensate him for the damage to
his reputation?

What happened to innocent until proven guilty?

--
[email hidden] (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/

;; Semper in faecibus sumus, sole profundum variat.

in message <[email hidden]>,

(') said:

Michael Press said:

In article
<[email hidden]>,

Quoted post said:

in these cases riders can always resort to absurd arguments like :
"storing my blood in an apartment in madrid doesn't indicate an
intention to cheat" or "the trunkful of EPO is for my mother-in-law"
and a large percetnage of cycling fans actually buy it.

No, they do not. They mostly do not want doping crusades to
interfere with bicycle races.

the innuendo of doping crusaders like [censored] pound, and even full on
verbal assault cannot cause the suspension of a rider or even launch
an investigation.

positive tests and police raids which turn up doping evidence (ie.
real evidence of cheating) on the other hand can.

On Fuentes' evidence, the majority of the people whose blood was stored
were professional footballers. How many of them were suspended/are being
prosecuted?

What evidence do we have that any of that blood belongs to any specific
rider except Ullrich?

The blood is evidence, yes. But it's not evidence against specific
individuals until it's been identified as belonging to those specific
individuals. And (with the exception of Ullrich) that has not happened.

--
[email hidden] (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/

;; Usenet: like distance learning without the learning.

"Simon Brooke" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

in message <[email hidden]>, Bill C

(') said:

On Apr 28, 3:18 pm, "[email hidden]" <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

you are saying those who are fighting doping should stop because the
negative publicity is affecting the sport... well yeah, and the SEC
inestigating Enron hurt investor confidence, because it should.

How about actually proving something. Yeah, out of all the Puerto
mess they got Ullrich. Nice.

Indeed. Anyone who is found guilty of doping faces a two year suspension
(and a further two years out of the Pro Tour). Ivan Basso was suspended
before last year's TdF, and we've already heard that he's suspended from
this year's TdF. So as far as the premier event is concerned, he's already
served the full suspension before a shred of evidence against him has been
proven. So if - if - his DNA doesn't match the blood in the bag which is
labelled with a name that is not the name of his dog, who is going to
compensate him for his earnings in those two years which should have been
the peak of his career? Who is going to compensate him for the damage to
his reputation?

What happened to innocent until proven guilty?

Patrick Levefere, sports director of Vandenbroucke, Museeuw, etc., said on
belgian TV that human rights must be temporarlily set aside in the fight
against doping , "like in the war on terror". Maybe they can put Basso in
Guantanamo Bay ...

Benjo.