UK and Europe · Public discussion

Everything we know about traffic-calming is wrong

Started by Marc Brett · · Last activity · 125 posts · 12,692 views

Thread navigation

Jump through the discussion

Go to the original post, the replies on this page, or the latest preserved contribution.

Thread details

What we know about this thread

Original section
UK and Europe
Published
18 June 2004
Last activity
12 July 2004
Original author
Marc Brett
Posts
125
Discussion status
Public discussion
Total views
12,692
Views / 30 days
0

The navigation and discussion metadata provide context. Posts remain in their original chronological order.

Showing posts 1–20 of 125
Posts remain in their original chronological order.

Text size
  1. <http://www.boingboing.net/2004/06/18/everything_we_know_a.html>

    Everything we know about traffic-calming is wrong

    Mind-blowing article about the European and Chinese
    challenges to the received wisdom on traffic planning and
    calming, arguing that the separation of peds and cars leads
    to less-safe streets:

    "The more you post the evidence of legislative control, such
    as traffic signs, the less the driver is trying to use his
    or her own senses," says Hamilton-Baillie, noting he has a
    habit of walking randomly across roads -- much to his wife's
    consternation. "So the less you can advertise the presence
    of the state in terms of authority, the more effective this
    approach can be." This, of course, is the exact opposite of
    the "Triple E" traffic-calming approach, which seeks to
    control the driver through the use of speed bumps, photo
    radar, crosswalks and other engineering and enforcement
    mechanisms.

    The "self-reading street" has its roots in the Dutch
    "woonerf" design principles that emerged in the 1970s.
    Blurring the boundary between street and sidewalk, woonerfs
    combine innovative paving, landscaping and other urban
    designs to allow for the integration of multiple functions
    in a single street, so that pedestrians, cyclists and
    children playing share the road with slow-moving cars. The
    pilot projects were so successful in fostering better urban
    environments that the ideas spread rapidly to Belgium,
    France, Denmark and Germany. In 1998, the British government
    adopted a "Home Zones" initiative -- the woonerf equivalent
    -- as part of its national transportation policy.

    "What the early woonerf principles realized," says Hamilton-
    Baillie, "was that there was a two-way interaction between
    people and traffic. It was a vicious or, rather, a
    virtuous circle: The busier the streets are, the safer
    they become. So once you drive people off the street, they
    become less safe."

    Salon Link (Reg/Ads Req'd) (via Kottke)

    <salon.comtraffic desig
    n/>

    Why don't we do it in the road?

    A new school of traffic design says we should get rid of
    stop signs and red lights and let cars, bikes and people
    mingle together. It sounds insane, but it works.

    May 20, 2004 | It's rush hour, and I am standing at the
    corner of Zhuhui and Renmin Road, a four-lane intersection
    in Suzhou, China. Ignoring the red light, a couple of taxis
    and a dozen bicycles are headed straight for a huge mass of
    cyclists, cars, pedicabs and mopeds that are turning left in
    front of me. Cringing, I anticipate a collision. Like a
    flock of migrating birds, however, the mass changes
    formation. A space opens up, the taxis and bicycles move in,
    and hundreds of commuters continue down the street,
    unperturbed and fatality free.

    In Suzhou, the traffic rules are simple. "There are no
    rules," as one local told me. A city of 2.2 million people,
    Suzhou has 500,000 cars and 900,000 bicycles, not to
    mention hundreds of pedicabs, mopeds and assorted, quainter
    forms of transportation. Drivers of all modes pay little
    attention to the few traffic signals and weave wildly from
    one side of the street to another. Defying survival
    instincts, pedestrians have to barge between oncoming cars
    to cross the roads.

    But here's the catch: During the 10 days I spent in Suzhou
    last fall, I didn't see a single accident. Really, not a
    single one. Nor was there any of the road rage one might
    expect given the anarchy that passes for traffic policy. And
    despite the obvious advantages that accrue to cars because
    of their size, no single transportation mode dominates the
    streets. On the contrary, the urban arterials are a communal
    mix of automobiles, cyclists, pedestrians, and small
    businesses such as inner-tube repairmen that set up shop
    directly in the right-of-way.

    [...]

  2. On Fri, 18 Jun 2004 21:29:44 +0100, Marc Brett
    <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    <[email hidden]>:

    Quoted message said:

    Mind-blowing article about the European and Chinese
    challenges to the received wisdom on traffic planning and
    calming, arguing that the separation of peds and cars leads
    to less-safe streets:

    Now that really /is/ new. Unless you've read JS Dean's 1946
    book "Murder Most Foul". Or Bob Davis' "Death On The
    Streets". Or Mayer Hillman's "One False Move".

    Guy
    --
    May contain traces of irony. Contents liable to settle after posting.
    chapmancentral.co.ukchapmancentral.co.uk

    88% of helmet statistics are made up, 65% of them at Washington University

  3. Marc Brett said:

    The pilot projects were so successful in fostering better
    urban environments that the ideas spread rapidly to
    Belgium, France

    France? Traffic Calming... I guess the author has never been
    to France.

  4. David Off said:


    France? Traffic Calming... I guess the author has never
    been to France.

    They calm their drivers with a bottle of vin rouge ;-)

    Tony

  5. "Tony Raven" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    "]news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:
    David Off said:


    France? Traffic Calming... I guess the author has never
    been to France.

    They calm their drivers with a bottle of vin rouge ;-)

    Tony

    This reminds me of something I saw on the Discovery
    channel once.

    Bascially, they took one one driver, and tested him on a
    private track.

    They found him to be aggressive, selfish, and unwill to
    acknowledge his limitations

    They then gave him a joint to smoke, and repeated the test.

    His driving improved - the theory being that the cannabis,
    whilst limiting his ability to drive, made him more relaxed
    and made him more aware of his limitations.

    Obviously (and as was pointed out in the programme), this
    doesn't mean driving while stoned should be legal, but it
    was an interesting, if unexpected result - and certainly
    worthy of more investigation.

    Thought I'd just throw that in for the sake of
    conversation :-)

  6. "Marc Brett" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    "]news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:


    <boingboing.neteverything we know
    _a.html>

    Everything we know about traffic-calming is wrong

    Mind-blowing article about the European and Chinese
    challenges to


    the

    Quoted message said:

    received wisdom on traffic planning and calming, arguing
    that the separation of peds and cars leads to less-safe
    streets:

    <snipped>

    Recently in Orkney, did some driving around the main
    street of Stromness. Very narrow, 2-way traffic and
    pedestrians mingling, standing in doorways to let cars
    past, etc. I paid a lot of attention and initially found
    it daunting to drive, but soon realised it was one of
    the safest non-pedestrianised "main streets" I ever
    experienced. Locals found it second nature to look both
    ways before stepping out of shop doorways. Likewise
    drivers patiently waited for pedestrians to go about
    their business. It all seemed to work quite well. The
    only "traffic control" measures there were single yellow
    lines to discourage long-term obstructions. In short,
    because of higher perceived danger levels, much more
    caution is exercised, and a street ends up being safer.

    ...........................................................-
    .....
    Posted via TITANnews - Uncensored Newsgroups Access

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    > at titannews.comtitannews.com <<<<


    -=Every Newsgroup - Anonymous, UNCENSORED, BROADBAND Downloads=-

  7. Nathaniel Porter said:

    "Tony Raven" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:2jh64eF11o96oU1@uni-
    berlin.de...

    Quoted message said:
    David Off said:


    France? Traffic Calming... I guess the author has never
    been to France.

    They calm their drivers with a bottle of vin rouge ;-)

    Tony

    This reminds me of something I saw on the Discovery
    channel once.

    Bascially, they took one one driver, and tested him on a
    private track.

    They found him to be aggressive, selfish, and unwill to
    acknowledge his limitations

    They then gave him a joint to smoke, and repeated
    the test.

    His driving improved - the theory being that the cannabis,
    whilst limiting his ability to drive, made him more
    relaxed and made him more aware of his limitations.

    Obviously (and as was pointed out in the programme), this
    doesn't mean driving while stoned should be legal, but it
    was an interesting, if unexpected result - and certainly
    worthy of more investigation.

    Thought I'd just throw that in for the sake of
    conversation :-)

    Dope messes with your perception of speed, smoke enough and
    try to drive and the cops will pull you over for doing 10
    mph on a clear road.

    --
    Andy Morris

    AndyAtJinkasDotFreeserve.Co.UK

    Love this:
    Put an end to Outlook Express's messy quotes
    home.in.tum.deoe quotefix

  8. AndyMorris said:


    Dope messes with your perception of speed, smoke enough
    and try to drive and the cops will pull you over for doing
    10 mph on a clear road.

    Sounds like that might have been personal experience there
    ;-)

    Tony

  9. "AndyMorris" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    "]news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:
    Nathaniel Porter said:

    "Tony Raven" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    "]news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    David Off wrote:
    >
    > France? Traffic Calming... I guess the author has
    > never been to France.

    They calm their drivers with a bottle of vin rouge ;-)

    Tony

    This reminds me of something I saw on the Discovery
    channel once.

    Bascially, they took one one driver, and tested him on a
    private track.

    They found him to be aggressive, selfish, and unwill to
    acknowledge his limitations

    They then gave him a joint to smoke, and repeated
    the test.

    His driving improved - the theory being that the
    cannabis, whilst limiting his ability to drive, made him
    more relaxed and made him more aware of his limitations.

    Obviously (and as was pointed out in the programme),
    this doesn't mean driving while stoned should be legal,
    but it was an interesting, if unexpected result - and
    certainly worthy of more investigation.

    Thought I'd just throw that in for the sake of
    conversation :-)

    Dope messes with your perception of speed, smoke enough
    and try to drive


    and

    Quoted message said:

    the cops will pull you over for doing 10 mph on a
    clear road.

    Which is what you'd expect - but this didn't happen in the
    (obviously relatively unscientific) experiment shown above.
    What did happen was he drove slowly (but not that slowly),
    and was so paranoid about hitting anything or messing up
    (which is one of the effects of dope) that he actually drove
    carefully and did manage to spot all the hazards thrown at
    him, and he dealt with them well.

    Just to reiterate, I'm not meaning to say that driving while
    stoned should be legal - but as I say the results of this
    experiment were rather unexpected and most interesting :-)

  10. Nathaniel Porter said:


    Which is what you'd expect - but this didn't happen in the
    (obviously relatively unscientific) experiment shown
    above. What did happen was he drove slowly (but not that
    slowly), and was so paranoid about hitting anything or
    messing up (which is one of the effects of dope) that he
    actually drove carefully and did manage to spot all the
    hazards thrown at him, and he dealt with them well.

    Just to reiterate, I'm not meaning to say that driving
    while stoned should be legal - but as I say the results of
    this experiment were rather unexpected and most
    interesting :-)

    {Puff} Like yeah man {puff}

    Tony ;-)

  11. David Off said:
    Marc Brett said:

    The pilot projects were so successful in fostering
    better urban environments that the ideas spread rapidly
    to Belgium, France

    France? Traffic Calming... I guess the author has never
    been to France.

    That's why it doesn't work..... if you go to St-Omer from
    the Tunnel via the N road, not the motorway, you used to go
    through a village (now, happily, bypassed) which had no
    fewer than 9 pedestrian crossings, as advertised at the
    start of the speed limit signs. Never saw any pedestrians
    using them, though, or any traffic taking any notice.

    Some "passages cloutés" are raised up, though, making their
    own speed bumps.
    --
    Annabel Smyth "][email hidden]
    amsmyth.demon.co.ukindex.html Website updated
    6 June 2004

  12. Annabel Smyth wrote:

    [ ... ]

    Quoted message said:

    ..... if you go to St-Omer from the Tunnel via the N road,
    not the motorway, you used to go through a village (now,
    happily, bypassed) which had no fewer than 9 pedestrian
    crossings, as advertised at the start of the speed limit
    signs. Never saw any pedestrians using them, though, or
    any traffic taking any notice.

    I have stopped at such crossing-places (in France and
    Belgium) in the past, only to be met with bemused stares
    from the waiting pedestrians (who seem not prepared to cross
    until all the traffic is dissipated - thereby undoing the
    purpose of the the crossings) and blasts of the horn from
    following drivers.

    ---
    Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-
    virus system (grisoft.comgrisoft.com). Version: 6.0.707 /
    Virus Database: 463 - Release Date: 15/06/04

  13. JNugent said:

    Annabel Smyth wrote:

    [ ... ]

    Quoted message said:

    ..... if you go to St-Omer from the Tunnel via the N
    road, not the motorway, you used to go through a village
    (now, happily, bypassed) which had no fewer than 9
    pedestrian crossings, as advertised at the start of the
    speed limit signs. Never saw any pedestrians using them,
    though, or any traffic taking any notice.

    I have stopped at such crossing-places (in France and
    Belgium) in the past, only to be met with bemused stares
    from the waiting pedestrians (who seem not prepared to
    cross until all the traffic is dissipated - thereby undoing
    the purpose of the the crossings) and blasts of the horn
    from following drivers.

    Same happened to me when I was cycling in France; stopped at
    "zebra crossing" to allow waiting peds to cross. Result;
    peds continue to wait, I continue to wait and motorised
    traffic continues to flow. Bemused looks between cyclists
    and French people.

  14. In article <[email hidden]>,
    [email hidden] says...

    Quoted message said:

    Nathaniel Porter wrote:

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    This reminds me of something I saw on the Discovery
    channel once.

    Bascially, they took one one driver, and tested him on a
    private track.

    They found him to be aggressive, selfish, and unwill to
    acknowledge his limitations

    They then gave him a joint to smoke, and repeated
    the test.

    His driving improved - the theory being that the
    cannabis, whilst limiting his ability to drive, made him
    more relaxed and made him more aware of his limitations.

    Obviously (and as was pointed out in the programme),
    this doesn't mean driving while stoned should be legal,
    but it was an interesting, if unexpected result - and
    certainly worthy of more investigation.

    Thought I'd just throw that in for the sake of
    conversation :-)

    Dope messes with your perception of speed, smoke enough
    and try to drive and the cops will pull you over for doing
    10 mph on a clear road.

    Sounds like that episode of "The Detectives" where Jasper
    Carrot and Robert Powell eat the "oxo" cubes they found, and
    ended up driving down the road, noses to the windscreen, and
    Carrot screaming "We're going too fast" while going slower
    than walking pace!

    Pete.

    --
    NOTE! Email address is spamtrapped. Any email will be
    bounced to you Remove the news and underscore from my
    address to reply by mail

  15. "Just zis Guy, you know?" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    "]news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    Mind-blowing article about the European and Chinese
    challenges to the received wisdom on traffic planning and
    calming, arguing that the separation of peds and cars
    leads to less-safe streets:

    Now that really /is/ new. Unless you've read JS Dean's
    1946 book "Murder Most Foul". Or Bob Davis' "Death On The
    Streets". Or Mayer Hillman's "One False Move".

    Guy

    Mention of Mayer Hillman reminded me of a view he expressed
    in a meeting I attended. He suggested all car bumpers should
    be made of glass and drivers seated on them. His view was
    that standards of driving will go up immediately. Seeing how
    Volvo drivers seem to have total disregard for their and all
    other road users' safety, I suspect the safety cocoon they
    have purchased has lulled them into a sense of false
    security - at least for the rest of us!

  16. On Sun, 20 Jun 2004 18:22:59 +0100, "Paul Dicken"
    <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    <[email hidden]>:

    Quoted message said:

    Mention of Mayer Hillman reminded me of a view he expressed
    in a meeting I attended. He suggested all car bumpers
    should be made of glass and drivers seated on them. His
    view was that standards of driving will go up immediately.
    Seeing how Volvo drivers seem to have total disregard for
    their and all other road users' safety, I suspect the
    safety cocoon they have purchased has lulled them into a
    sense of false security - at least for the rest of us!

    For varying values of Volvo drivers.

    chapmancentral.co.ukGPV

    Guy
    --
    May contain traces of irony. Contents liable to settle after
    posting. chapmancentral.co.ukchapmancentral.co.uk

    88% of helmet statistics are made up, 65% of them at
    Washington University

  17. Paul Dicken said:

    "Just zis Guy, you know?" <[email hidden]>
    wrote in message
    "]news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    Mind-blowing article about the European and Chinese
    challenges to the received wisdom on traffic planning
    and calming, arguing that the separation of peds and
    cars leads to less-safe streets:

    Now that really /is/ new. Unless you've read JS Dean's
    1946 book "Murder Most Foul". Or Bob Davis' "Death On The
    Streets". Or Mayer Hillman's "One False Move".

    Guy

    Mention of Mayer Hillman reminded me of a view he
    expressed in a meeting I attended. He suggested all car
    bumpers should be made of glass and drivers seated on
    them. His view was that standards of driving will go up
    immediately.

    ... because people driving in a vulnerable vehicle would
    drive more safely? That idea didn't seem to work before seat
    belts were invented, when occupants used to die by being
    ejected through the windscreen. Indeed it still happens.
    We've all read stories of late-night crashes where a carful
    of young people were killed or injured after they were
    thrown from their car, presumably because they were too
    drunk or high to remember to put on their seat belts.
    --
    Richard J. (to e-mail me, swap uk and yon in address)

  18. On Sun, 20 Jun 2004 20:08:54 GMT, "Richard J."
    <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    <[email hidden]>:

    Quoted message said:

    ... because people driving in a vulnerable vehicle
    would drive more safely? That idea didn't seem to work
    before seat belts were invented, when occupants used to
    die by being ejected through the windscreen. Indeed it
    still happens.

    On the other hand, they drive less carefully when protected
    by airbags, abs and seatbelts.

    Guy
    --
    May contain traces of irony. Contents liable to settle after
    posting. chapmancentral.co.ukchapmancentral.co.uk

    88% of helmet statistics are made up, 65% of them at
    Washington University

  19. Just zis Guy said:

    On Sun, 20 Jun 2004 20:08:54 GMT, "Richard J."
    <[email hidden]> wrote in message <q9mBc.1219$L_6.10764499@news-
    text.cableinet.net>:

    Quoted message said:

    ... because people driving in a vulnerable vehicle would
    drive more safely? That idea didn't seem to work before
    seat belts were invented, when occupants used to die by
    being ejected through the windscreen. Indeed it still
    happens.

    On the other hand, they drive less carefully when
    protected by airbags, abs and seatbelts.

    Guy

    Not all of them do, ta :-) I don't rely on ABS to stop me
    quicker - I use it to even out the fact that the car in
    front probably has it and will stop quicker than I can if I
    don't have it... so my driving hasn't changed in that
    respect. Seatbelts - always worn one, always will, so can't
    comment on how I'd drive without one. Airbags? I'd rather it
    didn't go off, ta, so it's another incentive to not have an
    accident that'll make it explode in front of me.

    Airbags have been implicated in some rather nasty accidents
    that might have been less nasty had the airbag not gone off,
    so I have very mixed feelings about being in a car equipped
    with several of the things.

    Yes it might stop me cracking my head open on the steering
    wheel, but on hte other hand I'd rather not have massive
    chest injuries caused by it..

    So it's not quite as clear cut that all the extra safety
    stuff makes people drive less carefully :-)

    --

    Velvet

  20. Velvet <[email hidden]> wrote:

    <Snipped Text>

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    On the other hand, they drive less carefully when
    protected by airbags, abs and seatbelts.

    Guy

    Not all of them do, ta :-) I don't rely on ABS to stop
    me quicker - I use it to even out the fact that the car
    in front probably has it and will stop quicker than I
    can if I don't have it... so my driving hasn't changed
    in that respect. Seatbelts - always worn one, always
    will, so can't comment on how I'd drive without one.
    Airbags? I'd rather it didn't go off, ta, so it's
    another incentive to not have an accident that'll make
    it explode in front of me.

    Airbags have been implicated in some rather nasty
    accidents that might have been less nasty had the airbag
    not gone off, so I have very mixed feelings about being in
    a car equipped with several of the things.

    Agreed, although not because of what they do, I know how
    reliable they are(n't).

    Quoted message said:

    Yes it might stop me cracking my head open on the steering
    wheel, but on hte other hand I'd rather not have massive
    chest injuries caused by it..

    Actually it's wearing a seat belt that causes the chest
    injuries. An air bag only causes friction burns on your
    arms. All an air bag is designed to do is to stop whiplash
    injuries by absorbing your forward momentum. The bag is
    actually deflating as you hit it. If you don't wear a seat
    belt your face hits the steering wheel as the bag is
    deployed. This is where injuries occur - usually fatally.
    Hence the term 'Supplementary Restraint System'.

    Quoted message said:

    So it's not quite as clear cut that all the extra safety
    stuff makes people drive less carefully :-)

    It is, there are always a few exceptions. Unfortunately you
    can't easily measure it, but observations suggest that
    having the safety devices does indeed 'encourage' more
    aggressive driving.

    --
    Andy Hewitt ** FAF#1, (Ex-OSOS#5) - FJ1200 ABS Honda
    Concerto 16v: Windows free zone (Mac G5 Dual Processor)
    thehewitts.plus.comthehewitts.plus.com - now online

Active in the last 60 minutes

Active in this thread

0 users · 0 guests ·0 bots ·0 total

No signed-in users are active right now.

No known search crawlers active right now.