Estimating TSS for a weights session

Tim M said:

I've just started my winter training program. The first few weeks includes some weights sessions in the Gym. Can anyone help me out with regard to how to go about estimating the TSS score of a weights session so I can enter it into WKO+ to keep my CTL & ATL reasonably accurate in Performance manager.

Thanks in advance.

You can't.

Tim M said:

I've just started my winter training program. The first few weeks includes some weights sessions in the Gym. Can anyone help me out with regard to how to go about estimating the TSS score of a weights session so I can enter it into WKO+ to keep my CTL & ATL reasonably accurate in Performance manager.

Thanks in advance.

aye I was tempted to just reply "Zero" as well but I won't 🙂

unless you're a track sprinter, completely untrained, or perhaps recovering from a major loss of muscle due to injury or illness, the evidence is out there that strongly indicates there's no weight-training benefit to cycling performance.

Personally I do (not as much as I ought to) core training to keep my ole abs and lower back conditioned but nothing else. These 'workouts' don't take much o/o me and similar to daily walks and the like, I don't assign them any TSS value.

If you find your non-cycling training is costing you in terms of recovery etc, simple suggestion: drop it.

Alex Simmons said:

You can't.

Perhaps someday weightlifters can join the power game 😄

strengthperformance.comTendoUnit.aspOpen ↗

strengthperformance.comPowerFactor.aspOpen ↗

Me? I'm old school.
Throw another couple of 44kg plates on the bar and see if I can get it off floor 🙂

Felt_Rider said:

Perhaps someday weightlifters can join the power game 😄

strengthperformance.comTendoUnit.aspOpen ↗

strengthperformance.comPowerFactor.aspOpen ↗

Me? I'm old school.
Throw another couple of 44kg plates on the bar and see if I can get it off floor 🙂

Those are awesome.

Explain to me, though, how the feedback that you get will help you get stronger...

Jim

otb4evr said:

Those are awesome.

Explain to me, though, how the feedback that you get will help you get stronger...

Jim

Not really stronger, but a seeking a higher power output for certain movements.
I doubt this will ever get the popularity in a gym like a cycling power meter.

Link 1
Link 2
Link 3 (this should calm some of the discussion for confused cyclists 🙂 )
Link 4

Felt_Rider said:

strengthperformance.comPowerFactor.aspOpen ↗

Too bad that thing doesn't readout TSS, too. 🙂

Is there an analytic weight lifting site? I've always wanted to find SST for incline curls and presses.🙂

Felt_Rider said:

Perhaps someday weightlifters can join the power game 😄

strengthperformance.comTendoUnit.aspOpen ↗

strengthperformance.comPowerFactor.aspOpen ↗

Me? I'm old school.
Throw another couple of 44kg plates on the bar and see if I can get it off floor 🙂

I was just stirring up things a bit by stating that there is testing of power outside the sport of cycling, but let me clarify that this testing is primarily used by coaches for specific training to a variety of particular activities and the purposes are different and perhaps not as refined as cycling (yet).

I am not sure if this will become mainstream in the fitness industry because the average joe will not understand it anyway. The equipment would be expensive and expensive to maintain.

It is important to understand the difference between power and strength. Which activity requires one or the other or both. From that knowledge a plan of training specificity is formed to progress in power/agility or strength.

For strength testing power output is meaningless.
With a pure strength event it will be obivious of success or failure without digital recording. At a powerlifting event and training it is obvious if the lifter is successful in a explosive lift. However, in olympic lifting there is an aspect of power and agility. Measuring the velocity of the bar movement might be beneficial to the coach, but not near as beneficial of measuring and recording power output for those in cycling, rowing or other similar events.

Why was the squat bar in the Tendo unit shown?
It wasn't for powerlifting, but more likely a method some coaches in basketball, olympic lifting or events involving vertical jumping to be tested. A squat bar may be used or a force platform, but these methods are not for the average fitness buff that wants to become stronger.

The average gym lifter (like myself) simply need to record sets, repetitions, success or failure in the lift. No other data is really needed for the average lifter. For the competitive cyclists specificity in training for power is the primary goal. We know that training for strength is distracting for the competitive cyclist.

I fall into the fitness category so my training is more holistic. I train for power, strength and agility. However, I fully realize that I will not excel as efficiently in any of these events and will be mediocre at best.

Isn't time important data when lifting for "big guns"/strength/definition? I think my routine is more beneficial when I complete it with good form in about 5 minutes if I can't do it in that time I take some weight off the dumbells if I do it in 4 minutes I add weight. Am I on track with that thinking?

Felt_Rider said:

The average gym lifter (like myself) simply need to record sets, repetitions, success or failure in the lift. No other data is really needed for the average lifter.

wiredued said:

Isn't time important data when lifting for "big guns"/strength/definition I think my routine is more beneficial when I complete it with good form in about 5 minutes if I can't do it in that time I take some weight off the dumbells if I do it in 4 minutes I add weight. Am I on track with that thinking?

I have been fortunate to have trained along some of the best strength athletes in the world (olympic lifters, powerlifters and bodybuilders) and yet many of them are very diverse in their training principles. I have met a scant few like yourself that regulate time in that manner. Therefore I generally say, "if it is working for you than continue."

However, among some of the world class powerlifters (Curtis Leslie - to name one) that I have watched day by day train for events would have more than 10 minutes between sets on the squat or deadlift platform. He had more than 6 guys training with him so the time it would take to change the weights for each guy, for that guy to get wrapped and psyched up, do the lift there would be a lot of rest time. However, powerlifters are typically not concerned with hypertrophy like a bodybuilder. In fact some do not want to gain too much muscle if it puts that lifter into the bottom of another weight class. Hypertrophy is the primary goal of a bodybuilder, but the typical bodybuilder (though most want to be strong really care more about gaining muscle mass than strength). Many of the bodybuilders train with a variety of principles and periodization. I have seen success doing many different training styles and would be hesitant to fully endorse one particular style of training over another.

For my genetics I was successful training with almost a hybrid powerlifting type of routine during the off-season and with the change of body composition and the reduction in strength as I would lose bodyfat and water retention I would relent to the condition, use shorter time frames between sets, up the overall volume of sets and repetitions. My off-season I would work up into heavy 3 rep sets for squats with a lot of rest time between sets, which is traditionally considered taboo among bodybuilders, but I personally found that if I stayed with a particular weight (lets say 75% of max all year round) my strength and size would plateau and actually decrease. I had to continually cycle my training in order to be progressive. If I could do 10 reps with 405 lbs than my training weight of 315 lbs would be much easier. If I worked my way up to 500 lbs than 405 would become easier. Simple view for my genetics was the stronger I became the more muscle mass I would add. However, muscle mass does not always equate to strength. I have seen many much smaller and thinner than I that could handle much more weight in an explosive lift.

Do you see a similarity of training philosophy now between lifting and cycling?

Though they are different each has a maximum output (and a training range - percent of maximum). The goal is to push the threshold of strength in one and power in the other.

There is a lot to this discussion and I hope in my haste to write I didn't make it more confusing.

Thought provoking as always thanks for the reply...I kind of stumbled on the time aspect because I do a warm up on a recumbent that has time on the display as I pedal and do incline curls then presses. I read some where that 4x9 struggling on the last couple reps is a good target for curls so I keep that the same for both exercises. Then I noticed I didn't get much out of it if I wasn't close to 5 minutes.

frenchyge said:

Too bad that thing doesn't readout TSS, too. 🙂

From just searching around in various studies I could not find anything related to TSS when studies are centered around these other types of training activities.

I am guessing, but I wonder if the general training stress of olympic lifting, vertical jump or other such activites have a much lower training stress than endurance sports and therefore less of a factor. It almost seems that these type of power tests are merely used on occasion and not used on a regular basis like in cycling.

Thank goodness for you guys in the cycling world that power output analysis is much more refined/sophisticated and informational.

It seems all the software out there simply applies a similar TSS for weight training as an endurance session with the same HR profile, duration etc. In my opinion intense weight training induces much bigger stresses on the body than endurance training.

After a squats session for example, I find it difficult to walk for a few days and any other training during that period is severely impacted. Yet Polar Personal trainer software (for example), will show a very small TSS for the offending weights session.

This doesn’t add up to me, yet there seems to be very little information out there on this subject.

Now I do as little weight training as possible to get the most benefit with the least impact on my endurance sessions.

Comments?

The TSS score is only marginal for a strength workout because it is not measuring the strength aspects of the workout, it is purporting to measure the aerobic benefits.

This subject has been covered exhaustively in other posts, but the general gist is that the best training for cycling is more cycling; and that strength training offers no real long term benefit for endurance type cycling. There are arguments that it offers collateral benefits in the form of better health, injury reduction, and aesthetics; and perhaps there is some benefit to pure sprinters.

If you are interested in weight training, and there are many on this forum, including Felt, JS, and me, then you are basically "cross-training.' Cross training has many benefits, and you can argue that cross trained people are more "fit" in various fitness categories than an endurance athlete, but then you have so start arbitrarily assigning the categories of fitness. All things being equal, and all things are never equal, the athlete training specifically for an endurance event, focused and periodized specifically for that event, will beat the athlete who cross trains in several events. The decathlete will get beaten soundly by a true 1500 meter runner; and this is even true for endurance events. A world class marathon runner would crush most triathletes in a marathon; and a pure distance swimmer would outperform the triathlete as well. But turn the competition into a cross training event, and the results are reversed.The marathon runner will lose a triathlon to a triathlete.

But I think the whole concept of a TSS score for a strength workout is a bit contrived. It's like trying to measure the amount lifted during a cycling workout by figuring out how much "weight" you are pushing for each revolution and then multiplying the revolutions over a workout, and then comparing it to a few reps of a resistance leg machine. "yeah, you can squat 500 pounds on a single rep, but I lifted the equivalent of 20000 pounds over a two hour bike ride.' There just totally different animals. The whole purpose of FTP is to maximize the power you can generate aerobically without going anaerobic. The whole purposes of lifting is to go anaerobic. Coming up with a score that purports to measure two different biological mechanisms seems inherently unscientific.

Thanks for the discussion.

Hmm maybe I’ve miss understood TSS or Polar’s ‘Training Load’, my assumption was that TSS is a measure of training stress on the athlete from an input, be it cycling, running, rowing, swimming, weight training or other.

My background is in competitive rowing but I do alpine cycling stages, ironman etc. I have trained seriously for over 20 years in endurance sport and weight training and have studies in sports science, although some time ago now.

I understand this is a cycling site but the topic is one I’ve been trying to get to the bottom of.

Based on what you’ve said below, I don’t understand why anyone would measure aerobic stress on the body while ignoring other training stresses like, weight training? Surely the idea is to monitor all training inputs to understand how much, little or over trained an athlete is at any time?

Okay, some elite road cyclists or distance runners may not have reason to engage in weight training, I can’t see Bradly Wiggins, Haile Gebrselassie or Mo Farah loading up the squat rack, they may do some weight training but it would be limited. Most other elite endurance athletes do need to engage in intense weight training however.

Surely as there seems to be for endurance training it must be possible to calculate a stress score for weight training based on things like HR and Duration, exercise type, volume, reps and intensity, I’d be surprised if there wasn’t.

From the point of view of a user of these platforms (Polar etc.) I could clock a 2-3 session day, wipe myself out on the ergo (rowing machine), swim, run or cycle for example and easily recover over the following 1-2 days. Inversely I could do a 30-60min intense weights session and be struggling to walk for days and be impacted during any of the aerobic sessions I engaged in.

If the scientific community are really saying, hey you’ve trained this hard aerobically, threshold or above, in these endurance activities but we’re going to ignore the impact of the weight training you’re doing that’s making you hobble around the gym I’d be surprised, certainly no elite coach would work on that basis.

Comments… James

James, it is an interesting topic to me as well. Have you considered presenting your question on Google Groups like wattage or Cycling Physiology where there are sports scientist discussing such things on a regular basis?

This is something that I have lightly considered. Meaning that now and then it crosses my mind because I am a former competitive lifter and coached others long ago, but I am not a sports scientist. Since picking up cycling in 2004 I have combined lifting and cycling training and my schedule is training 7 days a week with 5 days twice a day with weight lifting in the morning and cycling training in the evening. For me I have a really good understanding of my lifting training stress load so I don't feel like I need to track it and now I have a fairly good understanding of my current weekly training load in cycling by tracking it within WKO and watching trends. So it is really an art of observing and watching trends. Yes, it is the dreaded trial and error, but so far I am okay with that since that was the case for my competitive lifting career as well.

For now I will just simply say that I do not track lifting within WKO, but if you are looking for a good responses I would check out the Cycling Physiology group since there are a number of sports scientist and coaches discussing some of these types of topics.

On this statement

Quote: Most other elite endurance athletes do need to engage in intense weight training however.

The word "most" is something I don't quite comprehend with regards to "intense weight training" for elite endurance athletes , but then again I am super big believer in specificity of training. What endurance sporting activity are you talking about that requires intense lifting?

"Most" implies a very broad population of endurance athletes. "Intense weight training" implies a very progressive lifting program that would not allow for much specific endurance training time and a struggle to recover in both activities. One or the other will suffer and more than likely the athlete will struggle in one or both activities. This comes back to your original question that if one could track both in a program like WKO than maybe one could thread the needle of being progressive in both and possibly succeed at both.

I do feel confident is saying that most people I have observed trying to compete at a high level in Powerlifting would have hurt their potential at a 1 rep maximum lift on the day of competition if they had spent a good portion of their time training endurance. It would seem to me that the converse of this would be true for a high level endurance athlete to focus on training strength when they may be served better focusing on the very opposite end of the force/velocity curve.

Quoted post said:

Originally Posted by jamesbailey49
Thanks for the discussion.

Hmm maybe I’ve miss understood TSS or Polar’s ‘Training Load’, my assumption was that TSS is a measure of training stress on the athlete from an input, be it cycling, running, rowing, swimming, weight training or other.

Right but it is usually in reference to some known or estimated zones as the body moves from purely aerobic efforts to anaerobic efforts, i.e. FTP. The most accurate would be a power meter and some test or estimation of FTP; heart rate data is less accurate than a power meter but a reasonably accurate estimate for some purposes.

Surely as there seems to be for endurance training it must be possible to calculate a stress score for weight training based on things like HR and Duration, exercise type, volume, reps and intensity, I’d be surprised if there wasn’t.

If the scientific community are really saying, hey you’ve trained this hard aerobically, threshold or above, in these endurance activities but we’re going to ignore the impact of the weight training you’re doing that’s making you hobble around the gym I’d be surprised, certainly no elite coach would work on that basis.

Comments… James

This is what Training Peaks says about efforts to calculate TSS on other activities and its accuracy:
Quote: Heart Rate Training Stress Score (hrTSS)

• Applicable Workout Types: All workout types
  
• Accuracy Level: hrTSS is quite accurate with steady state effort workouts, but is less accurate for workouts with highly fluctuating efforts. hrTSS will only be used if there is not enough data to calculate TSS, rTSS, or sTSS, and the below requirements to calculate are met.
  
• Requirements to Calculate: Workout time series heart rate data, user threshold heart rate (entered in heart rate zones)
  
• What is hrTSS? Heart Rate Training Stress Score (hrTSS) is based on time in heart rate zones (based on users lactate threshold heart rate), and is not as accurate as Powermeter based TSS or running pace baced rTSS. TrainingPeaks uses the table found in the article below for calculating heart rate training stress score:
  

So weight and resistance workouts by nature are highly fluctuating efforts, as opposed to steady state aerobic activity. You work against a resistance, your heart rate soars for a brief period, and then you do it again, after a rest. It's not that the scientific community doesn't want to measure or quantify both aerobic and anaerobic activities under one scale, its just that there is no real reliable way of doing it based upon heart rate or some other data point.

This is the struggle that Felt and others who cross train have to address in our training. The truth is that there are well established scientific protocols for developing pure strength; and well established scientific protocols for improving performance in endurance related events. Trying to do both simultaneously is basically trial and error. The closest example in a recognized sport would be something like the decathlon, but a 1500 meter run is not an endurance event in the same way that a 40 minute or greater bike race would be. I personally feel that most of the elite endurance athletes that do resistance training incorporate it into their training for purely collateral benefits like injury prevention, fat reduction, boredom reduction etc, but that it has a negligible if any effect on their overall endurance performance.

Rowing in the 2000 meter range is probably closer to a middle distance event than a pure endurance event like cycling, triathlons, or marathon running. You may very well get some benefits from resistance training, but I am unfamiliar with any studies specifically comparing pure rowers with rowers who incorporate resistance training.

If you are not a professional endurance athlete who needs to maximize every watt per kg, then resistance training as part of a cross training routine makes perfect sense. The benefits of resistance training are well documented as far as overall "fitness," and there are some studies that suggest that you can get better benefits to health from just resistance training than just pure endurance training. The studies concerning high intensity circuit training have great results.

For guys like me, and I don't want to speak for Felt but I have certainly seem a lot of his posts that appear to express the same sentiment, doing both resistance and endurance training is fun; and we like to do both. We understand that there are some tradeoffs, but we like doing both.

Thanks, yes I think I will post on a google group as you’ve mentioned.
It seems to me that these TSS or other similar scores really don’t account for weight training or perhaps other near maximal efforts.

Well when I say ‘most’ I mean serious or elite athletes in sports like rowing, swimming, triathlon, kayaking, sprint road cycling, track cycling, team sports, etc.
When I say ‘intense’ I’m not talking about being a power lifter or body builder, just that the weight training is serious hard weight training designed to support and improve performance in the given sport or meet and objective, rather than mincing around the gym pretending, as many punters out there seem to.
As an example, rowing weight training is fundamentally made up of power clean, squat, bench pull, bench press and core. The phases throughout the year will include heavy weights 1-6 reps, moderate to heavy 6-12 and endurance out to 200 reps. I’d expect each sport to have a different set of strength requirements for improved performance and a programme to support these. Rowing does have a higher strength requirement than most endurance sports though.

Anyway we digress, as my question is really about incorporating a weight training score as part of an endurance training programme, as I feel it has a much higher stress on the body than endurance training of a similar period.

Thanks again, James

Quote: Since picking up cycling in 2004 I have combined lifting and cycling training and my schedule is training 7 days a week with 5 days twice a day with weight lifting in the morning and cycling training in the evening. For me I have a really good understanding of my lifting training stress load so I don't feel like I need to track it and now I have a fairly good understanding of my current weekly training load in cycling by tracking it within WKO and watching trends
Felt,

Wow. I had no idea that you were training so hard and frequently. That is a hard core fitness schedule! I am not sure I could keep that up for more than a few weeks.

Quote: As an example, rowing weight training is fundamentally made up of power clean, squat, bench pull, bench press and core. The phases throughout the year will include heavy weights 1-6 reps, moderate to heavy 6-12 and endurance out to 200 reps. I’d expect each sport to have a different set of strength requirements for improved performance and a programme to support these. Rowing does have a higher strength requirement than most endurance sports though.
James,

Crew is an interesting "endurance sport," and I say that as a former rower. You are generally training for a 2k race that lasts between 6-8 minutes, depending upon the boat and whether there is a current.(faster at the elite level) And because you are sitting on a slide and gliding on water, its not clear how increased body mass effects you kg per kg like it would on a comparable running or hilly cycling event. It's basically a middle distance event where your mass is somewhat displaced, which is also true in swimming. Swimmers at almost every distance clearly have different body types than pure endurance athletes on land and can probably benefit more from increased strength as well. If you look at 400 and 1500 meter swimming record holder Sun Yang, he is leaner than Phelps or Lochte, but he doesn't look like any cyclist or an elite 5000 meter runner.

Basically, it appears as though the benefits of pure strength training in sports like swimming and crew are probably more translatable than they are in an endurance sport like cycling or running at 1500 meters or better.