ESPN doping show summmary

Darrell Criswell said:

The show starts out with Armstrong leading the Peloton looking very
strong climbing in the mountains, saying others suffer while Lance
consistently outperforms (I am paraphrasing obviously).

The show only has a few snipets with Lemond where he recounts his
phone conversation with Lance in 2001 concerning Greg's charges of
Lance doping...where Lance told him that he could just as easily
accuse Greg of doping as Greg can accuse Lance without evidence...Greg
took this as a threat, but remained silent because he thought that is
what Lance would do if he continued to talk.

Then the show recounts David Walsh's book's claims about disposing of
syringes (also some blood drugs, one a calf drug product, claimed to
be used by a diabetic working for the team) and needle bruises on
Lance as well as Emma O'Reilly going to Spain to pick up some drugs.

The show says some have a version of Lance's positive steroid testing,
claimed to be a topical medication by Lance, that the team
manufactured the prescription after he tested positive and
manufactured a story about a saddle sore.

The show then counters with coverage of reporters in France. They
claim vitamin injections and IV's for dehydration are very common in
cycling, that it wouldn't be unusual to find syringes disposed by a
cycling team.

The reporter says no negative response to Lance in France...it says
although the medical tests for doping have been evaded by cyclists
such as David Millar, the French police have been ruthless in pursuing
drug use in cycling and it would be very hard to conceal drug use.

Says a number of years ago in a press conference Lance embarrassed
Walsh by showing Walsh was factually incorrect and since Walsh has had
an agenda against Lance...talks about how the book was timed for max
sales. The show also says Emma O'Reilly left the team under very bad
terms, is a former disgruntled employee.

The show ends with Lance's claim they have always tested clean.

So nothing new.

"Darrell Criswell" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

The show starts out with Armstrong leading the Peloton looking very
strong climbing in the mountains, saying others suffer while Lance
consistently outperforms (I am paraphrasing obviously).

The show only has a few snipets with Lemond where he recounts his
phone conversation with Lance in 2001 concerning Greg's charges of
Lance doping...where Lance told him that he could just as easily
accuse Greg of doping as Greg can accuse Lance without evidence...Greg
took this as a threat, but remained silent because he thought that is
what Lance would do if he continued to talk.

Well, I have to say something in defense of Lance. If Greg took that as a
threat, that indicates he knows that a doping allegation is something to be
worried about even if you are as guilty or innocent as Greg knows himself to
be.

Quoted message said:

Then the show recounts David Walsh's book's claims about disposing of
syringes (also some blood drugs, one a calf drug product, claimed to
be used by a diabetic working for the team) and needle bruises on
Lance as well as Emma O'Reilly going to Spain to pick up some drugs.

The show says some have a version of Lance's positive steroid testing,
claimed to be a topical medication by Lance, that the team
manufactured the prescription after he tested positive and
manufactured a story about a saddle sore.

The show then counters with coverage of reporters in France. They
claim vitamin injections and IV's for dehydration are very common in
cycling, that it wouldn't be unusual to find syringes disposed by a
cycling team.

The reporter says no negative response to Lance in France...it says
although the medical tests for doping have been evaded by cyclists
such as David Millar, the French police have been ruthless in pursuing
drug use in cycling and it would be very hard to conceal drug use.

I agree. I think there would be more evidence by now if Lance had been
doping. I think that he is a bit of a jerk, but an exceptionally talented
and driven athlete.

Quoted message said:

Says a number of years ago in a press conference Lance embarrassed
Walsh by showing Walsh was factually incorrect and since Walsh has had
an agenda against Lance...talks about how the book was timed for max
sales. The show also says Emma O'Reilly left the team under very bad
terms, is a former disgruntled employee.

The show ends with Lance's claim they have always tested clean.

"Darrell Criswell" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

The show only has a few snipets with Lemond where he recounts his
phone conversation with Lance in 2001 concerning Greg's charges of
Lance doping...where Lance told him that he could just as easily
accuse Greg of doping as Greg can accuse Lance without evidence...Greg
took this as a threat, but remained silent because he thought that is
what Lance would do if he continued to talk.

It looks like Lemond and Lance are mad at one another because they both have
a chip on their shoulder.

TM said:

"Darrell Criswell" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

The show only has a few snipets with Lemond where he recounts his
phone conversation with Lance in 2001 concerning Greg's charges of
Lance doping...where Lance told him that he could just as easily
accuse Greg of doping as Greg can accuse Lance without evidence...Greg
took this as a threat, but remained silent because he thought that is
what Lance would do if he continued to talk.

It looks like Lemond and Lance are mad at one another because they both have
a chip on their shoulder.

Lemond attacked first.

"Darrell Criswell" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

The show starts out with Armstrong leading the Peloton looking very
strong climbing in the mountains, saying others suffer while Lance
consistently outperforms (I am paraphrasing obviously).

The show only has a few snipets with Lemond where he recounts his
phone conversation with Lance in 2001 concerning Greg's charges of
Lance doping...where Lance told him that he could just as easily
accuse Greg of doping as Greg can accuse Lance without evidence...Greg
took this as a threat, but remained silent because he thought that is
what Lance would do if he continued to talk.

Then the show recounts David Walsh's book's claims about disposing of
syringes (also some blood drugs, one a calf drug product, claimed to
be used by a diabetic working for the team) and needle bruises on
Lance as well as Emma O'Reilly going to Spain to pick up some drugs.

The show says some have a version of Lance's positive steroid testing,
claimed to be a topical medication by Lance, that the team
manufactured the prescription after he tested positive and
manufactured a story about a saddle sore.

The show then counters with coverage of reporters in France. They
claim vitamin injections and IV's for dehydration are very common in
cycling, that it wouldn't be unusual to find syringes disposed by a
cycling team.

The reporter says no negative response to Lance in France...it says
although the medical tests for doping have been evaded by cyclists
such as David Millar, the French police have been ruthless in pursuing
drug use in cycling and it would be very hard to conceal drug use.

Says a number of years ago in a press conference Lance embarrassed
Walsh by showing Walsh was factually incorrect and since Walsh has had
an agenda against Lance...talks about how the book was timed for max
sales. The show also says Emma O'Reilly left the team under very bad
terms, is a former disgruntled employee.

The show ends with Lance's claim they have always tested clean.

You omitted the segment with the former Postal physician who (1) refused
requests, veiled and specific, to provided doping products and who was then;
(2) forced out of Postal; (3) he then received a certified letter from
Tailwind threatening to sue him if he said anything that might interfere
with USPS sponsorship; (3) he received a phone call from Armstrong
personally threatening to sue him and keep him very busy in court if he
spoke about his experience as related in the show.

You also omitted to the segment in which ESPN stated that it contacted two
of the alleged six people who were at Armstrong's cancer treatment bedside
when he was asked by his physician if he had used performance enhancing
drugs. Both women contacted, one of the, IIRC, the wife of Frankie Andreau,
refused to answer what Armstrong's reply was and told ESPN to ask Armstrong.
They could easily have said, "Lance told the doctor that he had not used
performance enhancing drugs" if that were true.

You also omitted the segment with Armstrong's former New Zealand team mate
on Motorola who stated that Armstrong took the lead in encouraging a move on
the team toward using doping products.

Also, your statement that "the show" (ESPN) stated that O'Reilly left Postal
under bad terms is inaccurate. They reported that Armstrong said she left
under bad terms. What the show did not note is that on leaving Postal, a
top Tailwind executive stated that Emma O'Reilly was the heart and soul of
the Postal team. I think Lance may want to consult with counsel before he
trashes Emma O'Reilly's reputation.

The comment about the French police was made by John Eustice and in no way
rebuts what was in the show. Eustice stated up front that the allegations
were a serious problem. Eustice's comments about syringe use in sports
really proved nothing as clearly, Millar and numerous other admitted EPO
dopers (like the spotted [censored]) also use syringes for EPO as well as legal
substances. I found Eustice quite circumspect which is not surprising in
that he is now a promoter of UCI sanctioned events.

The circumstantial evidence continues to mount. RIP Lance Myth.

Thanks, you have a lot better memory than me or taped the show. I was
just trying to convey my impressions of the show, most of the items
you mention didn't impress me as very newsworthy. Particularly the
medical people present when Lance was asked if he used performance
enhancing drugs, they are ethically forbidden from divulging that
information, whether his response was negative or positive (and who
has an accurate version of a conversation that happened many years
ago). The former Postal physicians comments could be true but didn't
impress me as very impressive or credible, where is the certified
letter, was it thrown away (I can't imagine anyone would throw a
letter like that away)? I didn't see any evidence to back it up as
true. Schwartz's comments seemed to me as very nonspecific and not
very credible.

I wouldn't be shocked if Posta cyclists werel involved in some doping
activities in the 90's, as were many cyclists apparently were, but the
evidence here sure doesn't convince me it was the case., I would guess
these activities ended with the scandals and increased scrutiny and is
water under the bridge, happened many years ago.

The prevailing undercurrent of thought presented by Lemond and others
is Lance can only perform at his current level by doping. The only
thing I see is Postal and possibly Armstrong may have had some
involvement with the stuff in the 90's.

On Sun, 18 Jul 2004 15:48:44 GMT, "B. Lafferty" <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

You omitted the segment with the former Postal physician who (1) refused
requests, veiled and specific, to provided doping products and who was then;
(2) forced out of Postal; (3) he then received a certified letter from
Tailwind threatening to sue him if he said anything that might interfere
with USPS sponsorship; (3) he received a phone call from Armstrong
personally threatening to sue him and keep him very busy in court if he
spoke about his experience as related in the show.

You also omitted to the segment in which ESPN stated that it contacted two
of the alleged six people who were at Armstrong's cancer treatment bedside
when he was asked by his physician if he had used performance enhancing
drugs. Both women contacted, one of the, IIRC, the wife of Frankie Andreau,
refused to answer what Armstrong's reply was and told ESPN to ask Armstrong.
They could easily have said, "Lance told the doctor that he had not used
performance enhancing drugs" if that were true.

You also omitted the segment with Armstrong's former New Zealand team mate
on Motorola who stated that Armstrong took the lead in encouraging a move on
the team toward using doping products.

Also, your statement that "the show" (ESPN) stated that O'Reilly left Postal
under bad terms is inaccurate. They reported that Armstrong said she left
under bad terms. What the show did not note is that on leaving Postal, a
top Tailwind executive stated that Emma O'Reilly was the heart and soul of
the Postal team. I think Lance may want to consult with counsel before he
trashes Emma O'Reilly's reputation.

The comment about the French police was made by John Eustice and in no way
rebuts what was in the show. Eustice stated up front that the allegations
were a serious problem. Eustice's comments about syringe use in sports
really proved nothing as clearly, Millar and numerous other admitted EPO
dopers (like the spotted [censored]) also use syringes for EPO as well as legal
substances. I found Eustice quite circumspect which is not surprising in
that he is now a promoter of UCI sanctioned events.

The circumstantial evidence continues to mount. RIP Lance Myth.

"B. Lafferty" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Darrell Criswell" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

The show starts out with Armstrong leading the Peloton looking very
strong climbing in the mountains, saying others suffer while Lance
consistently outperforms (I am paraphrasing obviously).

The show ...talks about how the book was timed for max
sales. The show also says Emma O'Reilly left the team under very bad
terms, is a former disgruntled employee.

The show ends with Lance's claim they have always tested clean.

You omitted the segment with the former Postal physician who (1) refused

You are wrong. He was not a Postal M.D.
He M.D.'d with Motorola up to '96 and now consults with HealthNet.

Nothing new though in the ESPN show.

Quoted message said:

requests, veiled and specific, to provided doping products and who was

then;

Quoted message said:

(2) forced out of Postal; (3) he then received a certified letter from
Tailwind threatening to sue him if he said anything that might interfere
with USPS sponsorship; (3) he received a phone call from Armstrong
personally threatening to sue him and keep him very busy in court if he
spoke about his experience as related in the show.

You also omitted to the segment in which ESPN stated that it contacted two
of the alleged six people who were at Armstrong's cancer treatment bedside
when he was asked by his physician if he had used performance enhancing
drugs. Both women contacted,

I was thinking about the bedside question and the issue of Physician/patient
privilege. With attorney client privilege, the privilege extends to anyone
on the attorney's staff or anyone in the attorney's employment. Certainly
the physician and hospital staff are bound by the privilege but not other
present like Andreau. Indeed, as a general legal principle, if there is a
person not subject to the privilege present, there is no privilege for the
party who would normally be subject to it. Stated another way, the presence
of a third party makes for no privilege.

I have a feeling that the doctor saved the letter. It would have been better
if they asked him that on-air. I think you have to understand the time
constraints of the program. The strongest point he made was the alleged
threat he received from Armstrong. Easy enough to check phone records to
verify that a call was made.

"Darrell Criswell" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Thanks, you have a lot better memory than me or taped the show. I was
just trying to convey my impressions of the show, most of the items
you mention didn't impress me as very newsworthy. Particularly the
medical people present when Lance was asked if he used performance
enhancing drugs, they are ethically forbidden from divulging that
information, whether his response was negative or positive (and who
has an accurate version of a conversation that happened many years
ago). The former Postal physicians comments could be true but didn't
impress me as very impressive or credible, where is the certified
letter, was it thrown away (I can't imagine anyone would throw a
letter like that away)? I didn't see any evidence to back it up as
true. Schwartz's comments seemed to me as very nonspecific and not
very credible.

I wouldn't be shocked if Posta cyclists werel involved in some doping
activities in the 90's, as were many cyclists apparently were, but the
evidence here sure doesn't convince me it was the case., I would guess
these activities ended with the scandals and increased scrutiny and is
water under the bridge, happened many years ago.

The prevailing undercurrent of thought presented by Lemond and others
is Lance can only perform at his current level by doping. The only
thing I see is Postal and possibly Armstrong may have had some
involvement with the stuff in the 90's.

On Sun, 18 Jul 2004 15:48:44 GMT, "B. Lafferty" <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

You omitted the segment with the former Postal physician who (1) refused
requests, veiled and specific, to provided doping products and who was

then;

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

(2) forced out of Postal; (3) he then received a certified letter from
Tailwind threatening to sue him if he said anything that might interfere
with USPS sponsorship; (3) he received a phone call from Armstrong
personally threatening to sue him and keep him very busy in court if he
spoke about his experience as related in the show.

You also omitted to the segment in which ESPN stated that it contacted

two

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

of the alleged six people who were at Armstrong's cancer treatment

bedside

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

when he was asked by his physician if he had used performance enhancing
drugs. Both women contacted, one of the, IIRC, the wife of Frankie

Andreau,

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

refused to answer what Armstrong's reply was and told ESPN to ask

Armstrong.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

They could easily have said, "Lance told the doctor that he had not used
performance enhancing drugs" if that were true.

You also omitted the segment with Armstrong's former New Zealand team

mate

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

on Motorola who stated that Armstrong took the lead in encouraging a move

on

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

the team toward using doping products.

Also, your statement that "the show" (ESPN) stated that O'Reilly left

Postal

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

under bad terms is inaccurate. They reported that Armstrong said she

left

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

under bad terms. What the show did not note is that on leaving Postal, a
top Tailwind executive stated that Emma O'Reilly was the heart and soul

of

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

the Postal team. I think Lance may want to consult with counsel before

he

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

trashes Emma O'Reilly's reputation.

The comment about the French police was made by John Eustice and in no

way

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

rebuts what was in the show. Eustice stated up front that the

allegations

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

were a serious problem. Eustice's comments about syringe use in sports
really proved nothing as clearly, Millar and numerous other admitted EPO
dopers (like the spotted [censored]) also use syringes for EPO as well as legal
substances. I found Eustice quite circumspect which is not surprising in
that he is now a promoter of UCI sanctioned events.

The circumstantial evidence continues to mount. RIP Lance Myth.

"Ken Papai" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:2FxKc.109760$MB3.67654@attbi_s04...

Quoted message said:

"B. Lafferty" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Darrell Criswell" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

The show starts out with Armstrong leading the Peloton looking very
strong climbing in the mountains, saying others suffer while Lance
consistently outperforms (I am paraphrasing obviously).

The show ...talks about how the book was timed for max
sales. The show also says Emma O'Reilly left the team under very bad
terms, is a former disgruntled employee.

The show ends with Lance's claim they have always tested clean.

You omitted the segment with the former Postal physician who (1) refused

You are wrong. He was not a Postal M.D.
He M.D.'d with Motorola up to '96 and now consults with HealthNet.

It was clearly stated that he was a Postal physician for the team prior to
Armstrong's arrival at Postal. If you have his employment records or a copy
of his 1099, let us know.

Quoted message said:

Nothing new though in the ESPN show.

So saith Kenny.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

requests, veiled and specific, to provided doping products and who was

then;

Quoted message said:

(2) forced out of Postal; (3) he then received a certified letter from
Tailwind threatening to sue him if he said anything that might interfere
with USPS sponsorship; (3) he received a phone call from Armstrong
personally threatening to sue him and keep him very busy in court if he
spoke about his experience as related in the show.

You also omitted to the segment in which ESPN stated that it contacted

two

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

of the alleged six people who were at Armstrong's cancer treatment

bedside

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

when he was asked by his physician if he had used performance enhancing
drugs. Both women contacted,

To me this stuff, even if true, kinda falls in the category of the
politican who was found to have smoked pot as a teenager (most of this
stuff goes back about 5-10 years ago), doesn't have much revelance to
what's going on today, but is being made to seem like that.

On Sun, 18 Jul 2004 16:41:54 GMT, "B. Lafferty" <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

I was thinking about the bedside question and the issue of Physician/patient
privilege. With attorney client privilege, the privilege extends to anyone
on the attorney's staff or anyone in the attorney's employment. Certainly
the physician and hospital staff are bound by the privilege but not other
present like Andreau. Indeed, as a general legal principle, if there is a
person not subject to the privilege present, there is no privilege for the
party who would normally be subject to it. Stated another way, the presence
of a third party makes for no privilege.

I have a feeling that the doctor saved the letter. It would have been better
if they asked him that on-air. I think you have to understand the time
constraints of the program. The strongest point he made was the alleged
threat he received from Armstrong. Easy enough to check phone records to
verify that a call was made.

"Darrell Criswell" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Thanks, you have a lot better memory than me or taped the show. I was
just trying to convey my impressions of the show, most of the items
you mention didn't impress me as very newsworthy. Particularly the
medical people present when Lance was asked if he used performance
enhancing drugs, they are ethically forbidden from divulging that
information, whether his response was negative or positive (and who
has an accurate version of a conversation that happened many years
ago). The former Postal physicians comments could be true but didn't
impress me as very impressive or credible, where is the certified
letter, was it thrown away (I can't imagine anyone would throw a
letter like that away)? I didn't see any evidence to back it up as
true. Schwartz's comments seemed to me as very nonspecific and not
very credible.

I wouldn't be shocked if Posta cyclists werel involved in some doping
activities in the 90's, as were many cyclists apparently were, but the
evidence here sure doesn't convince me it was the case., I would guess
these activities ended with the scandals and increased scrutiny and is
water under the bridge, happened many years ago.

The prevailing undercurrent of thought presented by Lemond and others
is Lance can only perform at his current level by doping. The only
thing I see is Postal and possibly Armstrong may have had some
involvement with the stuff in the 90's.

On Sun, 18 Jul 2004 15:48:44 GMT, "B. Lafferty" <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

You omitted the segment with the former Postal physician who (1) refused
requests, veiled and specific, to provided doping products and who was

then;

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

(2) forced out of Postal; (3) he then received a certified letter from
Tailwind threatening to sue him if he said anything that might interfere
with USPS sponsorship; (3) he received a phone call from Armstrong
personally threatening to sue him and keep him very busy in court if he
spoke about his experience as related in the show.

You also omitted to the segment in which ESPN stated that it contacted

two

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

of the alleged six people who were at Armstrong's cancer treatment

bedside

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

when he was asked by his physician if he had used performance enhancing
drugs. Both women contacted, one of the, IIRC, the wife of Frankie

Andreau,

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

refused to answer what Armstrong's reply was and told ESPN to ask

Armstrong.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

They could easily have said, "Lance told the doctor that he had not used
performance enhancing drugs" if that were true.

You also omitted the segment with Armstrong's former New Zealand team

mate

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

on Motorola who stated that Armstrong took the lead in encouraging a move

on

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

the team toward using doping products.

Also, your statement that "the show" (ESPN) stated that O'Reilly left

Postal

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

under bad terms is inaccurate. They reported that Armstrong said she

left

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

under bad terms. What the show did not note is that on leaving Postal, a
top Tailwind executive stated that Emma O'Reilly was the heart and soul

of

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

the Postal team. I think Lance may want to consult with counsel before

he

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

trashes Emma O'Reilly's reputation.

The comment about the French police was made by John Eustice and in no

way

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

rebuts what was in the show. Eustice stated up front that the

allegations

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

were a serious problem. Eustice's comments about syringe use in sports
really proved nothing as clearly, Millar and numerous other admitted EPO
dopers (like the spotted [censored]) also use syringes for EPO as well as legal
substances. I found Eustice quite circumspect which is not surprising in
that he is now a promoter of UCI sanctioned events.

The circumstantial evidence continues to mount. RIP Lance Myth.

"Darrell Criswell" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

The show starts out with Armstrong leading the Peloton looking very
strong climbing in the mountains, saying others suffer while Lance
consistently outperforms (I am paraphrasing obviously).

Thanks for the rundown, Darrell.

Mike

Quoted message said:

From: "B. Lafferty"

Quoted message said:

You omitted the segment (snip)

You omitted answering Mr. Criswell.

What about Greg's winning Tours and Worlds with little/no team support, and his
up and down performances (bad Giro, win the Tour)? If Greg didn't have anything
to hide, he was free to speak, right? Did he bring Kathy's notes that the two
of them corrected (i.e., "got their stories together) right after Lance called?

How about the plausible explanations for the syringes, and the fact that the
"drugs" that Emma delivered haven't been named?

How about the French investigation of Lance, which found no wrongdoing?

How about Lance's most public embarrassment of Walsh? You don't have to admit
this, but with both you and him, this is personal. Up on the flagpole for all
to see. Waiting three years to deliver the "news" and then doing it via a
profit-making sensational book (that admits to not "proving anything"😉.

What exactly were the "doping products" the team doctor (another disgruntled
former employee?) was asked to provide the riders?

Both of the women who were supposedly at Lance's bedside for a doctor's
question about "drug" use gave ESPN about the best answer possible. "No
comment" is standard until you get to court, right Brian?

Swart didn't name names and substances? Why not?

Quoted message said:

a
top Tailwind executive stated that Emma O'Reilly was the heart and soul of
the Postal team.

And Lance said she was fired under unfavorable circumstances. Both easily true,
given a time context (IOW, you're in favor one day, and out the next. Tiger
Woods' old caddie...). Plus, management might be sensitive about saying
anything negative that might bear on future employability. That might bring the
lawyers in, you know what I mean, Brian?

Quoted message said:

The comment about the French police was made by John Eustice and in no way
rebuts what was in the show.

Well, they caught Millar, didn't they? He found it difficult to conceal his EPO
use from the French police, didn't he, Brian? Isn't that pretty much what
Eustice said?

Quoted message said:

Eustice's comments about syringe use in sports
really proved nothing as clearly (snip)

The "syringes" were supposedly some hot smoking gun. Since syringe use is
common, like Eustice said, possession or use of syringes doesn't "prove"
doping, for all the unproven associations Walsh wasn't shy about making.

Quoted message said:

I found Eustice quite circumspect which >is not surprising (snip)

"since he's not stupid".

Quoted message said:

The circumstantial evidence continues to >mount. RIP Lance Myth.

How many convicted rapists and murderers have been set free by DNA evidence,
again, Brian? Hundreds, and those are just the ones who got someone to take up
their cause (expensive). That would be, people convicted of serious crimes (in
a court of law, not on TV/in the newspaper/here in a newsgroup) by testimony
and circumstantial evidence, who were found to be positively not guilty? Now,
why would someone testify against someone falsely... especially if they could
do it while not under oath and subject to prosecution for perjury? I'm not
saying anyone lied. I'm saying you don't have any proof of accusations, while
human motivations are obvious and abundant here.

Positive doping test, A&B samples, possession of EPO or other banned,
performance-enhancing substances, an uncoerced confession. Go for it.

Too bad I missed the ESPN show (I did flip during commercials) but the Tour was
on. I'm guessing they're going to complete this one and have another next year,
and on into the future, despite Walsh's best efforts. Agree?

Oh yeah, since you're in the pipeline, I heard there were some important
anti-doping figures who were very, very upset that Padrnos didn't get yanked.
True? --TP

What evidence ? I only hear conjecture.

What if the needles were for vitamin injections ? Surely they would not
want the press to find them, that would give them a field day.

Maybe people will start coming out of the woodwork with stories like that
about LeMond, the former top American. After all, I remember much from his
Junior daze.

Holden
"B. Lafferty" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Darrell Criswell" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

The show starts out with Armstrong leading the Peloton looking very
strong climbing in the mountains, saying others suffer while Lance
consistently outperforms (I am paraphrasing obviously).

The show only has a few snipets with Lemond where he recounts his
phone conversation with Lance in 2001 concerning Greg's charges of
Lance doping...where Lance told him that he could just as easily
accuse Greg of doping as Greg can accuse Lance without evidence...Greg
took this as a threat, but remained silent because he thought that is
what Lance would do if he continued to talk.

Then the show recounts David Walsh's book's claims about disposing of
syringes (also some blood drugs, one a calf drug product, claimed to
be used by a diabetic working for the team) and needle bruises on
Lance as well as Emma O'Reilly going to Spain to pick up some drugs.

The show says some have a version of Lance's positive steroid testing,
claimed to be a topical medication by Lance, that the team
manufactured the prescription after he tested positive and
manufactured a story about a saddle sore.

The show then counters with coverage of reporters in France. They
claim vitamin injections and IV's for dehydration are very common in
cycling, that it wouldn't be unusual to find syringes disposed by a
cycling team.

The reporter says no negative response to Lance in France...it says
although the medical tests for doping have been evaded by cyclists
such as David Millar, the French police have been ruthless in pursuing
drug use in cycling and it would be very hard to conceal drug use.

Says a number of years ago in a press conference Lance embarrassed
Walsh by showing Walsh was factually incorrect and since Walsh has had
an agenda against Lance...talks about how the book was timed for max
sales. The show also says Emma O'Reilly left the team under very bad
terms, is a former disgruntled employee.

The show ends with Lance's claim they have always tested clean.

You omitted the segment with the former Postal physician who (1) refused
requests, veiled and specific, to provided doping products and who was

then;

Quoted message said:

(2) forced out of Postal; (3) he then received a certified letter from
Tailwind threatening to sue him if he said anything that might interfere
with USPS sponsorship; (3) he received a phone call from Armstrong
personally threatening to sue him and keep him very busy in court if he
spoke about his experience as related in the show.

You also omitted to the segment in which ESPN stated that it contacted two
of the alleged six people who were at Armstrong's cancer treatment bedside
when he was asked by his physician if he had used performance enhancing
drugs. Both women contacted, one of the, IIRC, the wife of Frankie

Andreau,

Quoted message said:

refused to answer what Armstrong's reply was and told ESPN to ask

Armstrong.

Quoted message said:

They could easily have said, "Lance told the doctor that he had not used
performance enhancing drugs" if that were true.

You also omitted the segment with Armstrong's former New Zealand team mate
on Motorola who stated that Armstrong took the lead in encouraging a move

on

Quoted message said:

the team toward using doping products.

Also, your statement that "the show" (ESPN) stated that O'Reilly left

Postal

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under bad terms is inaccurate. They reported that Armstrong said she left
under bad terms. What the show did not note is that on leaving Postal, a
top Tailwind executive stated that Emma O'Reilly was the heart and soul of
the Postal team. I think Lance may want to consult with counsel before he
trashes Emma O'Reilly's reputation.

The comment about the French police was made by John Eustice and in no way
rebuts what was in the show. Eustice stated up front that the allegations
were a serious problem. Eustice's comments about syringe use in sports
really proved nothing as clearly, Millar and numerous other admitted EPO
dopers (like the spotted [censored]) also use syringes for EPO as well as legal
substances. I found Eustice quite circumspect which is not surprising in
that he is now a promoter of UCI sanctioned events.

The circumstantial evidence continues to mount. RIP Lance Myth.

"Tom Paterson" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

From: "B. Lafferty"

Too bad I missed the ESPN show (I did flip during commercials) but the

Tour was

Quoted message said:

on.

That pretty much says it all.

Darrell Criswell said:

Particularly the
medical people present when Lance
was asked if he used performance
enhancing drugs, they are ethically
forbidden from divulging that
information,

They were not medical people. They were friends of his.

JT

Anything about Lance's clearly documented physical gifts, like a high
VO2Max and low blood lactate levels, or his pro triathlon success as a
teenager?

--
--
Lynn Wallace http://www.xmission.com/~lawall
"We should not march into Baghdad. ... Assigning young soldiers to
a fruitless hunt for a securely entrenched dictator and condemning
them to fight in what would be an unwinnable urban guerilla war, it
could only plunge that part of the world into ever greater
instability." George Bush Sr. in his 1998 book "A World Transformed"

Quoted message said:

From: Raptor [email hidden]
Date: 7/18/2004 3:27 PM Eastern

Quoted message said:

Anything about Lance's clearly documented physical gifts, like a high
VO2Max and low blood lactate levels, or his pro triathlon success as a
teenager?

--
--
Lynn Wallace

Don't know. I was just watching it and they had to cut away for "LIVE"
coverage of the press conference of a golfer who finished 3rd.
Love ESPN.
Bill C

"B. Lafferty" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

<same old tired screed>

Brian,
What were you doing in my back yard this morning:
http://www.kenpapai.com/july/toms5579.JPG

Looking for dope?
http://www.kenpapai.com/july/turkies5578.JPG

-Ken

Of course not, and no mention of what is generally recognized as the
best training program and most meticulous attention to the aerodyanics
and quality of his bikes. Obviously the only thing that can explain
his performance is drugs.

On Sun, 18 Jul 2004 13:27:00 -0600, Raptor <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Anything about Lance's clearly documented physical gifts, like a high
VO2Max and low blood lactate levels, or his pro triathlon success as a
teenager?

--