Espirit de corps

chris harrison said:

Just how much espirit de corps should cyclists exhibit toward each other?

A cheery wave to all law-abiding types going the other way, a victory salute to all we pass (with a
blast on the Air Zound if they are roadies and we are riding a commuter bike at the time!), and "Oi!
Mate! Get some lights!" to the stealth brigade.

--
Guy
===
WARNING: May contain traces of irony. Contents liable to settle after posting.
chapmancentral.demon.co.ukchapmancentral.demon.co.ukOpen ↗

chris harrison said:

Just how much espirit de corps should cyclists exhibit toward each other? I speak as someone who
doesn't go through red lights, never rides on pavements, avoids going the wrong down one-way
streets, generally stops on or near the front white line at junctions, always uses lights (often
when it's not dark) and has much reflective tape, clothing and equipment.

IMHO there is an unjustifiable "us and them" attitude in this group and it's (probably) similar in
uk.tosspot, in which in this group (drivers == bad) and (cyclists == good) and if there is any
description of an altercation it's generally accepted that (cyclist == in the right) and (driver ==
in the wrong) because after all cyclists are vulnerable road users and so have a right to be
specially protected by motorists.

Often it is justified, but equally often it isn't. Cyclists are indeed vulnerable road users and
motorisits have a duty of care towards them as they do towards all other road users, but no more so
than they do towards any other road user. Motorists don't deliberately target cyclists, irrespective
of the stories that are often told here - those same stupid motorists who star in anecdotes in here
will be acting just as aggressively towards all other road users. As far as I can see, there is as
much aggressive thought and behaviour towards motorists by cyclists (and indeed towards other
cyclists) as the other way round. The difference is that a motorist in a ton of car is scarier in
all ways to a cyclist than a cyclist on a flimsy bike is towards a motorist. Neither forms of
aggression are in any way acceptable, though.

If I'm honest, I probably see more examples of stupid cyclist behaviour as a percentage of cyclists
seen than I do driver stupidity. Cycling stupidity is generally the most stupid, because the person
who is most likely to be injured by it is the cyclist - how stupid is that, to deliberately enhance
your own chances of being injured? It's stupider than stupidity shown by a car driver, who is far
more likely to injure others rather than himself - note that I am not equating "less stupid" with
"morally more acceptable" though, because of course it's far more acceptable in a moral sense to
increase your own risk though your own stupidity than to increase someone else's risk through your
own stupidity.

So, no, I don't think that being a cyclist engenders in itself any particular esprit de corps with
other cyclists. I have many things in common with many other cyclists, but then there are
intersections of commonality as a cyclist with many motorists, and as a motorist with many cyclists,
etc ad infinitum. I probably have a lot in common with many football supporters, too, although I've
only ever watched half a dozen games on the TV in my life! As an Australian living in England, I
even have something in common with the English Rugby team, but it's slipped my mind what? Oh yeah,
that's right, I live here :-)

Trev

Quoted message said:

It's unfair, but many motorists do tar all cyclists with the same brush and I do feel that
people see the wrong-doers and ignore those who don't break the rules - but treat everyone as if
they had.

I get the impression that pointing these

Quoted message said:

things out to other cyclists is letting the side down - is that fair?

I fit your description of your own cycling, and I just do not usually acknowledge the pavement or
stealth brigade. While I would like to give them the benefit of my assessment of their poor
judgement I am afraid that to do so volubly is seen as weirdly aggressive. And there are so many of
them, you'd shout yourself hoarse. TerryJ

chris harrison said:

Just how much espirit de corps should cyclists exhibit toward each other?

A cheery wave to all law-abiding types going the other way, a victory salute to all we pass (with a
blast on the Air Zound if they are roadies and we are riding a commuter bike at the time!), and "Oi!
Mate! Get some lights!" to the stealth brigade.

--
Guy
===
WARNING: May contain traces of irony. Contents liable to settle after posting.
chapmancentral.demon.co.ukchapmancentral.demon.co.ukOpen ↗

Quoted message said:

It's unfair, but many motorists do tar all cyclists with the same brush and I do feel that
people see the wrong-doers and ignore those who don't break the rules - but treat everyone as if
they had.

I get the impression that pointing these

Quoted message said:

things out to other cyclists is letting the side down - is that fair?

I fit your description of your own cycling, and I just do not usually acknowledge the pavement or
stealth brigade. While I would like to give them the benefit of my assessment of their poor
judgement I am afraid that to do so volubly is seen as weirdly aggressive. And there are so many of
them, you'd shout yourself hoarse. TerryJ

chris harrison said:

Just how much espirit de corps should cyclists exhibit toward each other? I speak as someone who
doesn't go through red lights, never rides on pavements, avoids going the wrong down one-way
streets, generally stops on or near the front white line at junctions, always uses lights (often
when it's not dark) and has much reflective tape, clothing and equipment.

Quoted message said:

I consider my riding fast and assertive - while not a roadie, I do ride a decent road bike and am
faster than 95% of the other cyclists I seem to come across on my daily commutes.

[SNIPPED]

Hi Chris

When on my ATB lookalike I rarely get a wave or "cheerio" from other bike riders. However, when
I'm riding my cheap road bike I often get a wave or a smile from others, but only those also on
road bikes.

I feel I am justified in commenting on other riders' behaviour but only when they endanger me.

Slightly OT: This morning I visted my GP to have some blood removed. As I was entering the surgery I
stopped and waited a moment to hold open the door for a late-middle-aged woman. She seemed quite
surprised that I did so. I have no idea whether she was shocked because of my age (39 is hardly
young) or because a cyclist should show a human side.

James

--
"Sorry mate, I didn't see you" is not a satisfactory excuse.

chris harrison said:

Just how much espirit de corps should cyclists exhibit toward each other? I speak as someone who
doesn't go through red lights, never rides on pavements, avoids going the wrong down one-way
streets, generally stops on or near the front white line at junctions, always uses lights (often
when it's not dark) and has much reflective tape, clothing and equipment.

Quoted message said:

I consider my riding fast and assertive - while not a roadie, I do ride a decent road bike and am
faster than 95% of the other cyclists I seem to come across on my daily commutes.

[SNIPPED]

Hi Chris

When on my ATB lookalike I rarely get a wave or "cheerio" from other bike riders. However, when
I'm riding my cheap road bike I often get a wave or a smile from others, but only those also on
road bikes.

I feel I am justified in commenting on other riders' behaviour but only when they endanger me.

Slightly OT: This morning I visted my GP to have some blood removed. As I was entering the surgery I
stopped and waited a moment to hold open the door for a late-middle-aged woman. She seemed quite
surprised that I did so. I have no idea whether she was shocked because of my age (39 is hardly
young) or because a cyclist should show a human side.

James

--
"Sorry mate, I didn't see you" is not a satisfactory excuse.

chris harrison said:

Just how much espirit de corps should cyclists exhibit toward each other? I speak as someone who
doesn't go through red lights, never rides on pavements, avoids going the wrong down one-way
streets, generally stops on or near the front white line at junctions, always uses lights (often
when it's not dark) and has much reflective tape, clothing and equipment.

Quoted message said:

I consider my riding fast and assertive - while not a roadie, I do ride a decent road bike and am
faster than 95% of the other cyclists I seem to come across on my daily commutes.

[SNIPPED]

Hi Chris

When on my ATB lookalike I rarely get a wave or "cheerio" from other bike riders. However, when
I'm riding my cheap road bike I often get a wave or a smile from others, but only those also on
road bikes.

I feel I am justified in commenting on other riders' behaviour but only when they endanger me.

Slightly OT: This morning I visted my GP to have some blood removed. As I was entering the surgery I
stopped and waited a moment to hold open the door for a late-middle-aged woman. She seemed quite
surprised that I did so. I have no idea whether she was shocked because of my age (39 is hardly
young) or because a cyclist should show a human side.

James

--
"Sorry mate, I didn't see you" is not a satisfactory excuse.

Daniel Auger said:

chris harrison said:

When I say assertive, many might have it as aggressive, I'm happy to point out, very vocally and
demonstrably, when a motorist does me wrong
- and even sometimes when it's not so clear cut. 😉

I thought "assertive" cycling was more about adopting a sensible road position and cooperating
with other road users on equal terms. ;-)

Absolutely. But sometimes these things can be misunderstood 😉

dirtylitterboxofferingstospammers said:

Quoted message said:

When I say assertive, many might have it as aggressive, I'm happy to point out, very vocally and
demonstrably, when a motorist does me wrong
- and even sometimes when it's not so clear cut. 😉

Ye gods, we are related ;-) But I wouldn't describe assertive cycling as being aggressive. Riding
assertively is riding safely.

But sometimes, the methods used to assert yourself can be misconstrued ... after all, most (maybe
all 🙂 cars are bigger and heavier, so there's a little bit of evening up to do, first!

Daniel Auger said:

chris harrison said:

When I say assertive, many might have it as aggressive, I'm happy to point out, very vocally and
demonstrably, when a motorist does me wrong
- and even sometimes when it's not so clear cut. 😉

I thought "assertive" cycling was more about adopting a sensible road position and cooperating
with other road users on equal terms. ;-)

Absolutely. But sometimes these things can be misunderstood 😉

dirtylitterboxofferingstospammers said:

Quoted message said:

When I say assertive, many might have it as aggressive, I'm happy to point out, very vocally and
demonstrably, when a motorist does me wrong
- and even sometimes when it's not so clear cut. 😉

Ye gods, we are related ;-) But I wouldn't describe assertive cycling as being aggressive. Riding
assertively is riding safely.

But sometimes, the methods used to assert yourself can be misconstrued ... after all, most (maybe
all 🙂 cars are bigger and heavier, so there's a little bit of evening up to do, first!

(dirtylitterboxofferingstospammers) said:

But I wouldn't describe assertive cycling as being aggressive. Riding assertively is riding safely.

I ride assertively. You ride aggressively. He (she or it) rides like a complete w*nker.

Isn't that the normal conjugation of the verb? <s>

Pete Barrett

Daniel Auger said:

chris harrison said:

When I say assertive, many might have it as aggressive, I'm happy to point out, very vocally and
demonstrably, when a motorist does me wrong
- and even sometimes when it's not so clear cut. 😉

I thought "assertive" cycling was more about adopting a sensible road position and cooperating
with other road users on equal terms. ;-)

Absolutely. But sometimes these things can be misunderstood 😉

(dirtylitterboxofferingstospammers) said:

But I wouldn't describe assertive cycling as being aggressive. Riding assertively is riding safely.

I ride assertively. You ride aggressively. He (she or it) rides like a complete w*nker.

Isn't that the normal conjugation of the verb? <s>

Pete Barrett

"Pete Biggs" wrote (in respone to chris harrison)

Quoted message said:

I think you can be satisfied with setting a "good" example yourself. I don't think you'll convert
many "bad" cyclists by telling them off - whom in many cases aren't causing any trouble but are
merely breaking rules, that while applying to cyclists in law, were actually designed for
motorists. Exceptions might be having a go at those who really have caused trouble or educating
children who genuienly don't seem to have a clue about their own safety.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

So while most cyclists don't break the rules, we're all assumed to be habitual red-light-runners
who cycle around with no light and a flagrant disregard for all traffic laws. I get the
impression that pointing these things out to other cyclists is letting the side down
- is that fair?

I don't think it does any good - including to one's own blood pressure.

Agree. I use to moan at other cyclists, but found I was just turning into Mr Grumpy. I now see
myself as an example setter. A sort of reassurance for them - I hope my actions are saying "Look,
it's OK to stop and wait at lights - see, I am doing it and in doing so I am displaying to motorists
that _I_ am _also_ traffic.

--
Cheerful pedalling John Mallard

dirtylitterboxofferingstospammers said:

Quoted message said:

When I say assertive, many might have it as aggressive, I'm happy to point out, very vocally and
demonstrably, when a motorist does me wrong
- and even sometimes when it's not so clear cut. 😉

Ye gods, we are related ;-) But I wouldn't describe assertive cycling as being aggressive. Riding
assertively is riding safely.

But sometimes, the methods used to assert yourself can be misconstrued ... after all, most (maybe
all 🙂 cars are bigger and heavier, so there's a little bit of evening up to do, first!

"Pete Biggs" wrote (in respone to chris harrison)

Quoted message said:

I think you can be satisfied with setting a "good" example yourself. I don't think you'll convert
many "bad" cyclists by telling them off - whom in many cases aren't causing any trouble but are
merely breaking rules, that while applying to cyclists in law, were actually designed for
motorists. Exceptions might be having a go at those who really have caused trouble or educating
children who genuienly don't seem to have a clue about their own safety.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

So while most cyclists don't break the rules, we're all assumed to be habitual red-light-runners
who cycle around with no light and a flagrant disregard for all traffic laws. I get the
impression that pointing these things out to other cyclists is letting the side down
- is that fair?

I don't think it does any good - including to one's own blood pressure.

Agree. I use to moan at other cyclists, but found I was just turning into Mr Grumpy. I now see
myself as an example setter. A sort of reassurance for them - I hope my actions are saying "Look,
it's OK to stop and wait at lights - see, I am doing it and in doing so I am displaying to motorists
that _I_ am _also_ traffic.

--
Cheerful pedalling John Mallard

"Mark Thompson" <[email hidden] (change warm for hot)> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I set an example when I jump red lights by dismounting and walking past

'em,

Quoted message said:

then remounting the other side. Makes a nice balance between speed and

the

Quoted message said:

law, and /really/ annoys the car drivers - I've got ahead of 'em without cheating!

You don't ride through Virginia Water sometimes, do you? There's a guy who rides there who does
exactly what you describe. I keep passing him and then he walks his bike across the lights when
they're on red. It really annoys me - and I'm on a bike!
___
Michael MacClancy

"Trevor Barton" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

snipped very wise post.

As an Australian living in England,

Quoted message said:

I even have something in common with the English Rugby team, but it's slipped my mind what? Oh
yeah, that's right, I live here :-)

You might have something else in common with them ...... you'd all rather be living somewhere warmer
right now ;-)
___
Michael MacClancy