Esoteric wheelbuilding question

Quoted post said:

Originally posted by Nigel Grinter
First, the facts:
1. I am in the process of building a rear wheel for a
friend.
2. I am re-using an old hub that he bought for the purpose.
3. The hub has 32 holes and, judging by the marks left
by the old spokes, it seems it was originally laced
cross-three.
4. I always try to rebuild hubs using the original
spoking pattern to avoid adding new stress points at
the spoke holes.
5. I normally build my wheels with mirror-image
spoking, pulling spokes crossed to the outside (as
per 'The Book'😉.

Now, the problem: If I spoke the hub following the earlier
lacing pattern, no matter how I try the pulling spokes end
up crossed to the inside. This is supposed to be a no-no as
the pulling spokes will, under load, deflect outwards and,
on the right side, will potentially get into an argument
with the derailleur.

My questions:
6. Am I just being dense and not understanding how the wheel
was laced originally?
7. Is the issue of the spokes tangling with the derailleur
really only a theoretical concern?
8. If the answer to 3. above is "No", is it best to re-spoke
the hub in my normal pattern or should I suggest to my
friend that he not re-use the hub?
9. Should I get a life and find something important to
worry about?

Thanks for any help.

Best wishes,

Nigel Grinter

Build it the way it originally built.
Your way (and the Book's way) is theorectically better, but the amount af movement on the drive side spokes is not significant in a properly built wheel.
Make sure to follow the remainder of other items in the book:
1. Spoke align at hub and rim
2. Stress relieve
3. Tension balance.

Nigel Grinter said:

First, the facts:

Quoted message said:

1. I am in the process of building a rear wheel for a
friend.
2. I am re-using an old hub that he bought for the
purpose.
3. The hub has 32 holes and, judging by the marks left by
the old spokes, it seems it was originally laced cross-
three.
4. I always try to rebuild hubs using the original spoking
pattern to avoid adding new stress points at the spoke
holes.
5. I normally build my wheels with mirror-image spoking,
pulling spokes crossed to the outside (as per 'The
Book'😉.

Where the pulling spokes originate is optional and makes
essentially no difference. Only if you want to justify one
orientation over another is when that reasoning could be
invokes... but it doesn't matter.

Quoted message said:

Now, the problem: If I spoke the hub following the earlier
lacing pattern, no matter how I try the pulling spokes end
up crossed to the inside. This is supposed to be a no-no
as the pulling spokes will, under load, deflect outwards
and, on the right side, will potentially get into an
argument with the derailleur.

Let's keep this within bounds of reason. The deflections
mentioned are insignificant, they being at most a few
tenths of a mm. This cannot endanger a derailleur or
interfere with shifting.

Quoted message said:

My questions:

Quoted message said:

1. Am I just being dense and not understanding how the
wheel was laced originally?

Quoted message said:

2. Is the issue of the spokes tangling with the derailleur
really only a theoretical concern?

Yes.

Quoted message said:

3. If the answer to 3. above is "No", is it best to re-
spoke the hub in my normal pattern or should I suggest
to my friend that he not re-use the hub?

That is a more serious concern. Don't change the cross
pattern or orientation once a hub has been used that way.

Quoted message said:

4. Should I get a life and find something important to
worry about?

Well, I wouldn't put it that way, but yes, these are
insignificant problems, but then the book said so already.

Jobst Brandt [email hidden]

daveornee <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Nigel Grinter said:

First, the facts:
1. I am in the process of building a rear wheel for a
friend.
2. I am re-using an old hub that he bought for the
purpose.
3. The hub has 32 holes and, judging by the marks left
by the old spokes, it seems it was originally laced
cross-three.
4. I always try to rebuild hubs using the original
spoking pattern to avoid adding new stress points
at the spoke holes.
5. I normally build my wheels with mirror-image
spoking, pulling spokes crossed to the outside (as
per 'The Book'😉. Now, the problem: If I spoke the
hub following the earlier lacing pattern, no matter
how I try the pulling spokes end up crossed to the
inside. This is supposed to be a no-no as the
pulling spokes will, under load, deflect outwards
and, on the right side, will potentially get into
an argument with the derailleur. My questions:
6. Am I just being dense and not understanding how the
wheel was laced originally?
7. Is the issue of the spokes tangling with the
derailleur really only a theoretical concern?
8. If the answer to 3. above is "No", is it best to
re-spoke the hub in my normal pattern or should I
suggest to my friend that he not re- use the hub?
9. Should I get a life and find something important to
worry about? Thanks for any help. Best wishes,
Nigel Grinter

Build it the way it originally built. Your way (and the
Book's way) is theorectically better, but the amount af
movement on the drive side spokes is not significant in a
properly built wheel. Make sure to follow the remainder of
other items in the book:
1. Spoke align at hub and rim
2. Stress relieve
3. Tension balance.

--

Thanks for the response. I have built a large number of
wheels, mostly using new parts, but a few rebuilds as well,
and this is the first time I have encountered this spoking
arrangement (so I had always assumed it just was not done
that way). I'm glad we can re-use the hub since it is in
perfect condition.

Best wishes,

Nigel Grinter

[email hidden] wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Nigel Grinter said:

First, the facts:

Quoted message said:

1. I am in the process of building a rear wheel for a
friend.
2. I am re-using an old hub that he bought for the
purpose.
3. The hub has 32 holes and, judging by the marks left
by the old spokes, it seems it was originally laced
cross-three.
4. I always try to rebuild hubs using the original
spoking pattern to avoid adding new stress points at
the spoke holes.
5. I normally build my wheels with mirror-image spoking,
pulling spokes crossed to the outside (as per 'The
Book'😉.

Where the pulling spokes originate is optional and makes
essentially no difference. Only if you want to justify one
orientation over another is when that reasoning could be
invokes... but it doesn't matter.

Quoted message said:

Now, the problem: If I spoke the hub following the
earlier lacing pattern, no matter how I try the pulling
spokes end up crossed to the inside. This is supposed to
be a no-no as the pulling spokes will, under load,
deflect outwards and, on the right side, will
potentially get into an argument with the derailleur.

Let's keep this within bounds of reason. The deflections
mentioned are insignificant, they being at most a few
tenths of a mm. This cannot endanger a derailleur or
interfere with shifting.

Quoted message said:

My questions:

Quoted message said:

1. Am I just being dense and not understanding how the
wheel was laced originally?

Quoted message said:

2. Is the issue of the spokes tangling with the
derailleur really only a theoretical concern?

Yes.

Quoted message said:

3. If the answer to 3. above is "No", is it best to re-
spoke the hub in my normal pattern or should I
suggest to my friend that he not re-use the hub?

That is a more serious concern. Don't change the cross
pattern or orientation once a hub has been used that way.

Quoted message said:

4. Should I get a life and find something important to
worry about?

Well, I wouldn't put it that way, but yes, these are
insignificant problems, but then the book said so already.

Jobst Brandt [email hidden]

Dear Jobst,

Thanks for your input. I have to say that it was 'The Book'
that got me concerned in the first place - it says that
identical spoking (as opposed to mirror image) can cause the
rim to deflect as much as 1mm under load. It also advises
having the pulling spokes coming from the inside of the hub.
I obviously made an unjustified mental leap here, but I'm
glad there is no issue.

Thanks again,

Nigel Grinter

Nigel Grinter wrote:

---8<---cutting

Quoted message said:

. . . . it was 'The Book' that got me concerned in the
first place - it says that identical spoking (as opposed
to mirror image) can cause the rim to deflect as much as
1mm under load. It also advises having the pulling
spokes coming from the inside of the hub. I obviously
made an unjustified mental leap here, but I'm glad there
is no issue.

Thanks again,

Nigel Grinter

Hi,

For those of us who haven't read Jobst's bike wheel book
yet, could you pls elaborate on the phrase "pulling spokes
coming from the inside of the hub"? For me, that could
mean either:

a) these spokes leave the flange, going towards the rim from
the inside of the hub, or

b) these spokes are laced so that they originate on the
inside of the hub, and thus leave the flange from the
outside of it.

IOW is the *head* of the pulling spoke sitting on the
outside of the flange (case a), or the inside (case b)?

Tnx for any clarification.

/Robert

Robert Brown <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Nigel Grinter wrote:

---8<---cutting

Quoted message said:

. . . . it was 'The Book' that got me concerned in the
first place - it says that identical spoking (as
opposed to mirror image) can cause the rim to deflect
as much as 1mm under load. It also advises having the
pulling spokes coming from the inside of the hub. I
obviously made an unjustified mental leap here, but
I'm glad there is no issue.

Thanks again,

Nigel Grinter

Hi,

For those of us who haven't read Jobst's bike wheel book
yet, could you pls elaborate on the phrase "pulling spokes
coming from the inside of the hub"? For me, that could
mean either:

a) these spokes leave the flange, going towards the rim
from the inside of the hub, or

b) these spokes are laced so that they originate on the
inside of the hub, and thus leave the flange from the
outside of it.

IOW is the *head* of the pulling spoke sitting on the
outside of the flange (case a), or the inside (case b)?

Tnx for any clarification.

/Robert

Dear Robert,

Sorry if I caused confusion. Your alternative (a) is what I
meant - that the head of the pulling spoke should be on the
outside of the flange and the shaft of this spoke runs from
the inner face of the hub flange to the rim.

Nigel Grinter

Robert Brown said:

For those of us who haven't read Jobst's bike wheel book
yet, could you please elaborate on the phrase "pulling
spokes coming from the inside of the hub"? For me, that
could mean either:

Quoted message said:

a) these spokes leave the flange, going towards the rim
from the inside of the hub, or

Quoted message said:

b) these spokes are laced so that they originate on the
inside of
the hub, and thus leave the flange from the outside of
it.

Quoted message said:

IOW is the *head* of the pulling spoke sitting on the
outside of the flange (case a), or the inside (case b)?

Inside = between flanges, outside = outside the
flanges. Pictures are worth 10,000 words. There are
pictures with the text.

Jobst Brandt [email hidden]

Quoted message said:

Robert Brown said:

For those of us who haven't read Jobst's bike wheel book
yet, could you please elaborate on the phrase "pulling
spokes coming from the inside of the hub"? For me, that
could mean either:

Quoted message said:

a) these spokes leave the flange, going towards the rim
from the inside of the hub, or

Quoted message said:

b) these spokes are laced so that they originate on the
inside of
the hub, and thus leave the flange from the outside of
it.

Quoted message said:

IOW is the *head* of the pulling spoke sitting on the
outside of the flange (case a), or the inside (case b)?

Inside = between flanges, outside = outside the flanges.
Pictures are worth 10,000 words. There are pictures with
the text.

Methinks Mr. Brandt has missed the point. Good thing there
are pictures in the book. Bad thing that the book has to be
purchased in order to view them.

OTOH thank you Mr. Grinter for a a proper reading of my
question and an unambiguous answer :-)

/Robert "knows a condescending answer when he sees
one" Brown

Robert Brown said:

Quoted message said:

Robert Brown said:

For those of us who haven't read Jobst's bike wheel
book yet, could you please elaborate on the phrase
"pulling spokes coming from the inside of the hub"? For
me, that could mean either:

Quoted message said:

a) these spokes leave the flange, going towards the rim
from the inside of the hub, or

Quoted message said:

b) these spokes are laced so that they originate on the
inside of the hub, and thus leave the flange from
the outside of it.

Quoted message said:

IOW is the *head* of the pulling spoke sitting on the
outside of the flange (case a), or the inside (case b)?

Inside = between flanges, outside = outside the flanges.
Pictures are worth 10,000 words. There are pictures with
the text.

Methinks Mr. Brandt has missed the point. Good thing there
are pictures in the book.

Umm. Now granted that I've been mucking about with and on
bikes for well over 30 years and built my first wheels in
1978, but it didn't seem that hard to figure out. Since the
reference was to spokes, not heads, it seemed immediately
clear. Perhaps that's just me.

Quoted message said:

Bad thing that the book has to be purchased in order to
view them.

Why is this bad? The book is well worth having if you want
to understand how bicycle wheels work.

So Robert Brown <[email hidden]> says:

Quoted message said:

Methinks Mr. Brandt has missed the point. Good thing there
are pictures in the book. Bad thing that the book has to be
purchased in order to view them.

Everyone who build wheels should read if not own it.

Tim McNamara said:

Robert Brown said:

Quoted message said:

Robert Brown writes:

> For those of us who haven't read Jobst's bike wheel
> book yet, could you please elaborate on the phrase
> "pulling spokes coming from the inside of the hub"?
> For me, that could mean either:

> a) these spokes leave the flange, going towards the
> rim from the inside of the hub, or

> b) these spokes are laced so that they originate on
> the inside of the hub, and thus leave the flange
> from the outside of it.

> IOW is the *head* of the pulling spoke sitting on the
> outside of the flange (case a), or the inside (case
> b)?

Inside = between flanges, outside = outside the
flanges. Pictures are worth 10,000 words. There are
pictures with the text.

Methinks Mr. Brandt has missed the point. Good thing
there are pictures in the book.

Umm. Now granted that I've been mucking about with and on
bikes for well over 30 years and built my first wheels in
1978, but it didn't seem that hard to figure out. Since
the reference was to spokes, not heads, it seemed
immediately clear. Perhaps that's just me.

Quoted message said:

Bad thing that the book has to be purchased in order to
view them.

Why is this bad? The book is well worth having if you want
to understand how bicycle wheels work.

That you and a few others should freely assume that this
book is as much a bestseller outside the USA as within, is
something for you to think twice about. OK, we have
McDonalds in Sweden, but not "The Bicycle Wheel" - yet.

Brandt's sour comment was of the ilk "in is in and out is
out", which, as he well knew, would not help. The term
"inside" spoke could either be seen as being "spoke shaft
resting against inside of flange" or "spoke laced from
the inside".

But as I said, my question has already been answered in a
way which is more in the spirit of this newsgroup, by
Nigel G. I doubt that he has written as authoritative a
tome as the one discussed, but I would trust him as a
source of knowledge much more than Brandt, given the
latter's attitude.

I have been building my own wheels since 1976 myself, and
have laced them with pulling spokes' heads sitting on both
inside and outside of flange, depending on the year or
perhaps ignorance. In all the kilometres I've ridden I have
broken *two* spokes, so I have no statistic that
inside/outside makes any difference at all.

My wheels are well-built but I'm sure I could improve on my
technique, perhaps with Brandt's book.

If it is not acceptable, in this NG, to ask for
clarification on points covered by Brandt's book, then I
suggest the following:

1) Mention this in the charter of this NG, so that it is not
polluted by people asking questions on how to build
bicycle wheels, or

2) Make sure that each regular subscriber to this NG is
given a free copy of the book in question

3) Would Brandt please scan the book and put it on the 'Net
so he doesn't get peeved by our question. True knowledge
lies in sharing.

My aim is not to cause trouble; I just want, that when
people answer my questions, that they refrain from
condescending remarks and sarcasm, or handling
knowledge as power.

/Robert

Robert Brown said:

Methinks Mr. Brandt has missed the point. Good thing there
are pictures in the book. Bad thing that the book has to be
purchased in order to view them.

/Robert "knows a condescending answer when he sees
one" Brown

Probably more of a marketing answer than condescending.

Too bad the book isn't common in public libraries. It's very
informative and quite complete.

Here in RI, the Providence Public Library has it. Any RI
library can retrieve it from that one.
--
Rick Onanian

Rick Onanian said:

Robert Brown said:

Methinks Mr. Brandt has missed the point. Good thing
there are pictures in the book. Bad thing that the book
has to be purchased in order to view them.

/Robert "knows a condescending answer when he sees
one" Brown

Probably more of a marketing answer than condescending.

Good point. And I guess that his reproaching us
Scandinavians for not having a copy on each our own
bookshelves can, I suppose, be seen as a rather peculiar
attempt at market development.

Per Elmsäter, vad säger du om detta? Har du fått någon
kopia ännu?

Quoted message said:

Too bad the book isn't common in public libraries. It's
very informative and quite complete.

Here in RI, the Providence Public Library has it. Any RI
library can retrieve it from that one.

I'll keep that in mind. Thank you.

Robert "tiptoeing between the mines laid in a USA-centred
newsgroup" Brown

Robert Brown said:

Tim McNamara said:

Quoted message said:

Bad thing that the book has to be purchased in order to
view them.

Why is this bad? The book is well worth having if you
want to understand how bicycle wheels work.

That you and a few others should freely assume that this
book is as much a bestseller outside the USA as within, is
something for you to think twice about. OK, we have
McDonalds in Sweden, but not "The Bicycle Wheel" - yet.

I am sorry to hear that those living in Sweden do not have
access to services such as Amazon.com, ABEbooks.com, etc.
I didn't realize this and I apologize for my
thoughtlessness. And also my heartfelt condolences for the
presence of McDonald's in Sweden; I despise their "food"
and refuse to eat there under any circumstances. I haven't
eaten at a McDonalds (or Burger King, Wendy's, Hardee's,
etc.) in over 15 years.

Quoted message said:

Brandt's sour comment was of the ilk "in is in and out is
out", which, as he well knew, would not help. The term
"inside" spoke could either be seen as being "spoke shaft
resting against inside of flange" or "spoke laced from the
inside".

As I said, I found that not at all mysterious. But then
again, I speak the same American English as Mr. Brandt
(although his grammar is usually better than mine), have
similar cultural references, and I've been fascinated by
bikes for well over 30 years. With the exception of
adjusting indexed shifting, which remains arcane to me, the
mechanics of a bicycle are second nature to me by now.
Therefore I am probably not a good example.

Quoted message said:

But as I said, my question has already been answered in a
way which is more in the spirit of this newsgroup, by
Nigel G. I doubt that he has written as authoritative a
tome as the one discussed, but I would trust him as a
source of knowledge much more than Brandt, given the
latter's attitude.

Then you deprive yourself of an excellent- if a bit grumpy-
resource. Perhaps you might prefer the resources at Sheldon
Brown's excellent and en-cycle-opedic Web site
www.sheldonbrown.com.

Quoted message said:

I have been building my own wheels since 1976 myself, and
have laced them with pulling spokes' heads sitting on both
inside and outside of flange, depending on the year or
perhaps ignorance. In all the kilometres I've ridden I
have broken *two* spokes, so I have no statistic that
inside/outside makes any difference at all.

Neither does Mr. Brandt in his book. He points out that the
difference is negligible. I prefer to build wheels with the
pulling spokes from both flanges on the inside, mainly
because of the aesthetics of it.

Quoted message said:

My wheels are well-built but I'm sure I could improve on
my technique, perhaps with Brandt's book.

Possibly. At least your understanding of how a wheel
supports a load would be improved.

Quoted message said:

3) Would Brandt please scan the book and put it on the
'Net so he doesn't get peeved by our question. True
knowledge lies in sharing.

There are probably copyright reasons that he cannot, even if
he had a mind to do so. Under American copyright law, the
author rarely owns the copyright of any published work. It
is the publisher that owns, and benefits from, the copyright
except in a few rare cases.

Quoted message said:

My aim is not to cause trouble; I just want, that when
people answer my questions, that they refrain from
condescending remarks and sarcasm,

Hmm, a bit of pot-kettle-black?

Quoted message said:

or handling knowledge as power.

As the RIAA and the publishing industry in general is
working overtime to prove, information is power and absolute
control of access to information is absolute power.