Er? Anyone here from Canberra?

cfsmtb said:

Does anyone know any background to this "issue"?
<snip>
The Opposition's Steve Pratt says the bike lanes need to be removed.

"Cars turning left into crossroad intersections, cars turning into driveways, have great difficulty," he said.

"It's very unsafe for cyclists in those sorts of conditions, so we would seek to have road cycle lanes removed under those conditions."

cars turning left into roads and driveways have great difficulty?
how hard can it be to indicate (lift one finger) slow down (a slight movement of the left foot) and wait for a cyclist to pass (no movement needed whatsoever). no, methinks the problem here is the problem that is everywhere... impatience.

and yes, it is unsafe for cyclists in these conditions, simply because people dont want to share the road... one would think that because there is a bike lane on a main road that it would be safer than riding on a 'normal' road, but no, this guy has just said its unsafe... im not from canberra, and the token bike paths that we have on-road here in brisbane are shameful, it doesnt matter wether theres a bike lane or not, most drivers dont even notice...
i think the best way to make roads safe for bikes is to get rid of the cars on them, and seeing thats not going to happen, then DRIVER and RIDER education, and mutual respect for eachother, is going to have to do.

asterope said:

cfsmtb said:

Does anyone know any background to this "issue"?
<snip>
The Opposition's Steve Pratt says the bike lanes need to be removed.

"Cars turning left into crossroad intersections, cars turning into
driveways, have great difficulty," he said.

"It's very unsafe for cyclists in those sorts of conditions, so we
would seek to have road cycle lanes removed under those conditions."

cars turning left into roads and driveways have great difficulty?

<snip>

I'd like to think the cars cope just fine. It's drivers that
seem to have difficulty...

Tam

asterope said:

cfsmtb said:

Does anyone know any background to this "issue"?
<snip>
The Opposition's Steve Pratt says the bike lanes need to be removed.

"Cars turning left into crossroad intersections, cars turning into
driveways, have great difficulty," he said.

"It's very unsafe for cyclists in those sorts of conditions, so we
would seek to have road cycle lanes removed under those conditions."

Pratt by name, prat by nature! oooh, it's sooo hard for those poor
[censored] in cars.... it's sooo difficult. For fsck sake!! I can't
believe this [censored]!

He seems to be pandering to the NRMA's apparent right to have total
control over ACT roads. That's the 'N'RMA mind you. The problem is
clearly not that there are bike lanes, it's that there are cars!

I'm fuming! Should be a great ride home... I'm bound to swear at cars
all the way for no good reason just to vent my spleen.

--
Bean

Remove "yourfinger" before replying

asterope said:

cfsmtb said:

Does anyone know any background to this "issue"?
<snip>
The Opposition's Steve Pratt says the bike lanes need to be removed.

"Cars turning left into crossroad intersections, cars turning into
driveways, have great difficulty," he said.

"It's very unsafe for cyclists in those sorts of conditions, so we
would seek to have road cycle lanes removed under those conditions."

cars turning left into roads and driveways have great difficulty?
how hard can it be to indicate (lift one finger) slow down (a slight
movement of the left foot) and wait for a cyclist to pass (no movement
needed whatsoever). no, methinks the problem here is the problem that
is everywhere... impatience.

and yes, it is unsafe for cyclists in these conditions, simply because
people dont want to share the road... one would think that because
there is a bike lane on a main road that it would be safer than riding
on a 'normal' road, but no, this guy has just said its unsafe... im not
from canberra, and the token bike paths that we have on-road here in
brisbane are shameful, it doesnt matter wether theres a bike lane or
not, most drivers dont even notice...
i think the best way to make roads safe for bikes is to get rid of the
cars on them, and seeing thats not going to happen, then DRIVER and
RIDER education, and mutual respect for eachother, is going to have to
do.

Well said.

My understanding is that the current law already requires cyclists to give
way to vehicles turning left when the vehicle is ahead of the cyclist. This
is abused by vehicle drivers who overtake cyclists at or immediately before
a driveway or intersection, effectively cutting off the cyclist.

After Pratt's comments about how unsafe it is for cyclists, there is an
argument that the law should be changed to provide a cyclist with right of
way when proceeding ahead. In this way, vehicle drivers would know there
is no grey area when turning left in front of a cyclist, and cyclists are
safer.

Cheers,

Vince

cfsmtb said:

Does anyone know any background to this "issue"?

TimmyC lives in Canberra, he might know something 🙂

cfsmtb said:

Does anyone know any background to this "issue"?

*****************

Opposition wants ACT bike lanes removed
http://www.abc.net.au/news/newsitems/200610/s1763729.htm
The ACT Opposition says the Government should remove bicycle lanes from Canberra's busiest roads, because they pose a danger to cyclists and drivers.

The NRMA has released a study showing that 40 per cent of the capital's regular cyclists have had an accident or near miss in a cycling lane last year.

It has also criticised the width of bike lanes in the Territory, saying the Government's decision to narrow the road lanes to include cycle-ways was a cost cutting measure.

The Opposition's Steve Pratt says the bike lanes need to be removed.

"Cars turning left into crossroad intersections, cars turning into driveways, have great difficulty," he said.

"It's very unsafe for cyclists in those sorts of conditions, so we would seek to have road cycle lanes removed under those conditions."

I have been living in Canberra for a year and the primary problem is the fact that we have the biggest waste of money I have ever seen, known as the ACT Government. The local members here all feel as if they need to open their mouths on a daily basis to try and convince everyone that they serve some sort of purpose (intelligent well though out ideas are not a requirement and tend to be avoided as they get in the way of the [censored] coming out of their mouths). Both parties are a complete waste of time and the fact that the National Capital Authority and the Federal Government can override them at will and I have yet to meet a single local that thinks they are worth anything.

The next problem is that NRMA are a car focused group which means that they will look at blaming anyone, except driver, for causing problems on the road. If you they did remove the bike lanes off the roads it would have no effect on what roads the riders use. How they came up with a finding that gives both the driver and the rider a clear boundary on where they should be.

As for who gives way bikes are considered vehicles and the normal road rules apply in regards to who gives way. The only exception is on a number of the busier roads they have painted the bike lane green which gives the rider right of way. These are used when a side merge lane intersects with the main road.

The opposition should be very careful when making statements like this considering how many Canberra's residents commute to work by bike and ride on the weekends.

fyi - email from Pedal Power & suggested further actions. 😉

***************

Pedal Power Special Bulletin
www.pedalpower.org.au

Saturday 14th October 2006

NRMA Media Release on On-road Bicycle Lanes

This week the NRMA attacked the safety of Canberra’s on-road cycle lanes, following a study and survey on cycle lanes it has conducted. See www.mynrma.com.au/2006_061012.asp The report appears to emphasise perceptions of the lanes as unsafe rather than providing any factual evidence to support these perceptions, but as it has not yet been made public, it is impossible to comment on it.

On-road cycling lanes are not a unique Canberra invention, but are found in every major Australian city and throughout the world. In Australia they are built to national standards agreed by expert traffic planners and engineers. Pedal Power will continue to promote their introduction on major roads. This is also ACT Government and Roads ACT policy. Of course Pedal Power is also willing to work with others to improve the network, where improvements are needed, and we strongly support the maintenance and extension of the off-road network.

ACT Liberal Urban Services Spokesman Steve Pratt yesterday called for cycling lanes to be removed in response to the NRMA’s comments. See www.abc.net.au/news/newsitems/200610/s1763729.htm. Pedal Power believes this would greatly increase the danger and decrease the practicality of cycling, and set Canberra back decades in sustainable transport practices.

To ensure support for on-road cycling lanes, we NEED the support of our members and the wider cycling community. Here is what YOU can do:

* send an email to Urban Services Minister John Hargreaves at [email hidden] briefly and politely emphasising your support for on-road cycling lanes

* send an email to your local Liberal member (see www.canberraliberals.org.au/default.cfm?action=people&type=1) briefly and politely explaining your support for on-road cycling lanes

* if you are an NRMA member, send an email to [email hidden] stating your support for on-road cycling lanes, and politely reminding them that you are a voter in the NRMA’s elections

*forward this email to your cycling friends.

Please help us keep the Canberra cycle lane network in place and growing.

John Widdup
President
Pedal Power ACT Inc.

PP is committed to representing the interests of all cyclists in the Canberra region. We welcome your comments on any issue

Is my memory playing tricks or is this vocal Steve Pratt the same Major Steve Pratt who got mixed up in the Serb/Croat /Bosnia conflict and ended up in all sorts of dodo with the Yuogaslav Government for spying when he was working there for Care Australia.

My, how he has bettered himself. From international diplomatic incident to slagging off cyclists.

Agree with previous post. Upsetting Canberra cycle commuters is a real vote looser.

Cheers

Hugh

HughMann said:

Is my memory playing tricks or is this vocal Steve Pratt the same Major Steve Pratt who got mixed up in the Serb/Croat /Bosnia conflict and ended up in all sorts of dodo with the Yuogaslav Government for spying when he was working there for Care Australia.

My, how he has bettered himself. From international diplomatic incident to slagging off cyclists.

Certainly looks like the very same bloke:
http://www.canberraliberals.org.au/default.cfm?action=people_details&id=11

cfsmtb said:

Certainly looks like the very same bloke:
http://www.canberraliberals.org.au/default.cfm?action=people_details&id=11

http://www.abc.net.au/gnt/people/Transcripts/s938769.htm

Vincent Patrick said:

My understanding is that the current law already requires cyclists to give
way to vehicles turning left when the vehicle is ahead of the cyclist.
This
is abused by vehicle drivers who overtake cyclists at or immediately
before
a driveway or intersection, effectively cutting off the cyclist.

I don't believe this is the legal case at all! Hang on.....

Yep! See rule 144 http://www.vicroads.vic.gov.au/vrpdf/randl/part_11.pdf

Quoted message said:

144. Keeping a safe distance when overtaking

Quoted message said:

A driver overtaking a vehicle-

Quoted message said:

(a) must pass the vehicle at a sufficient distance to avoid a collision
with

the vehicle or obstructing the path of the vehicle; and

Quoted message said:

(b) must not return to the marked lane or line of traffic where the vehicle
is

travelling until the driver is a sufficient distance past the vehicle to
avoid

a collision with the vehicle or obstructing the path of the vehicle.

Quoted message said:

Penalty: 5 penalty units.

Seems to indicate that once overtaken (which legally requires a full lane
change, u nless the road is not marked with lanes) the driver must ensure he
will avoid any conclusion before returning to the lane to then make an
indicated left turn

Quoted message said:

After Pratt's comments about how unsafe it is for cyclists, there is an
argument that the law should be changed to provide a cyclist with right of
way when proceeding ahead. In this way, vehicle drivers would know there
is no grey area when turning left in front of a cyclist, and cyclists are
safer.

See above. I believe this is the case.

--
Cheers
Peter

~~~ ~ _@
~~ ~ _- \,
~~ (*)/ (*)

Peter Signorini said:

Vincent Patrick said:

My understanding is that the current law already requires cyclists to
give way to vehicles turning left when the vehicle is ahead of the
cyclist. This
is abused by vehicle drivers who overtake cyclists at or immediately
before
a driveway or intersection, effectively cutting off the cyclist.

I don't believe this is the legal case at all! Hang on.....

Yep! See rule 144 http://www.vicroads.vic.gov.au/vrpdf/randl/part_11.pdf

Quoted message said:

144. Keeping a safe distance when overtaking

Quoted message said:

A driver overtaking a vehicle-

Quoted message said:

(a) must pass the vehicle at a sufficient distance to avoid a collision
with

the vehicle or obstructing the path of the vehicle; and

Quoted message said:

(b) must not return to the marked lane or line of traffic where the
vehicle is

travelling until the driver is a sufficient distance past the vehicle to
avoid

a collision with the vehicle or obstructing the path of the vehicle.

Quoted message said:

Penalty: 5 penalty units.

Seems to indicate that once overtaken (which legally requires a full lane
change, u nless the road is not marked with lanes) the driver must ensure
he will avoid any conclusion before returning to the lane to then make an
indicated left turn

Quoted message said:

After Pratt's comments about how unsafe it is for cyclists, there is an
argument that the law should be changed to provide a cyclist with right
of
way when proceeding ahead. In this way, vehicle drivers would know there
is no grey area when turning left in front of a cyclist, and cyclists are
safer.

See above. I believe this is the case.

O.K. but I would like to see even less ambiguity, and more safety for a
cyclist.

Here's a scenario where I was concerned a 'grey area' existed (currently) :
a car driver could claim to have already passed a bicycle and so was just
slowing down for the left turn when the careless cyclist tried to overtake
on the left...

That's in rough terms, anyway. It becomes even more complex in some
situations. I regularly cycle past a shopping centre entrance where the
bike lane is marked to curl inwards to the left and vanish at the shopping
centre driveway. Real cut-off territory. Now if the law definitively
stated that bicycles always had right-of-way (over powered vehicles) to
proceed ahead, things might be clearer.

On 2006-10-13, Vincent Patrick (aka Bruce)
was almost, but not quite, entirely unlike tea:

Quoted message said:

My understanding is that the current law already requires cyclists to give
way to vehicles turning left when the vehicle is ahead of the cyclist. This
is abused by vehicle drivers who overtake cyclists at or immediately before
a driveway or intersection, effectively cutting off the cyclist.

After Pratt's comments about how unsafe it is for cyclists, there is an
argument that the law should be changed to provide a cyclist with right of
way when proceeding ahead. In this way, vehicle drivers would know there
is no grey area when turning left in front of a cyclist, and cyclists are
safer.

I'm not sure that the law doesn't already require cars to give way --
the law that stops a cyclist overtaking on the left when a car is
indicating and turning left -- I have never been able to work out
whether that applies to a bike in the same lane as a car (lane
splitting), or whether it applies also to a bike in a separate lane --
a bike lane.

Since when has it made sense for left lane occupants to give way to
right lane occupants turning left?

--
TimC
Save the whales. Feed the hungry. Free the mallocs. --unknown

TimC said:

On 2006-10-13, Vincent Patrick (aka Bruce)
was almost, but not quite, entirely unlike tea:

Quoted message said:

My understanding is that the current law already requires cyclists to
give way to vehicles turning left when the vehicle is ahead of the
cyclist. This is abused by vehicle drivers who overtake cyclists at or
immediately before a driveway or intersection, effectively cutting off
the cyclist.

After Pratt's comments about how unsafe it is for cyclists, there is an
argument that the law should be changed to provide a cyclist with right
of
way when proceeding ahead. In this way, vehicle drivers would know there
is no grey area when turning left in front of a cyclist, and cyclists are
safer.

I'm not sure that the law doesn't already require cars to give way --
the law that stops a cyclist overtaking on the left when a car is
indicating and turning left -- I have never been able to work out
whether that applies to a bike in the same lane as a car (lane
splitting), or whether it applies also to a bike in a separate lane --
a bike lane.

Since when has it made sense for left lane occupants to give way to
right lane occupants turning left?

You're right, it doesn't make sense. Except perhaps to the many car drivers
who cut off cyclists in exactly that way. I would like to see the law
specifically require motorised traffic to give way to cyclists under all
turn-left conditions.

According to at least one WA Government web page which describes cycling
road rules, cyclists "Cannot overtake on the left side of a motor vehicle
if that motor vehicle is moving and indicating to turn left". I understand
the reasoning behind it, but am concerned by its implications. It could
easily lead to a defence for cars drivers who cut across the line of a
cyclist, and is a way for the cyclist to be blamed if an accident occurs.

The unfortunate web page is: http://www.dpi.wa.gov.au/cycling/1974.asp

Cheers,

Vince

HughMann said:

Is my memory playing tricks or is this vocal Steve Pratt the same Major
Steve Pratt who got mixed up in the Serb/Croat /Bosnia conflict and
ended up in all sorts of dodo with the Yuogaslav Government for spying
when he was working there for Care Australia.

My, how he has bettered himself. From international diplomatic
incident to slagging off cyclists.

Agree with previous post. Upsetting Canberra cycle commuters is a real
vote looser.

Cheers

Yep, he is the same guy.

As for self-government....we voted against it but the Fed Govt. gave it
to us anyway!!

Cycle lanes, however, RULE!

Rob

RobWoozle said:

HughMann said:

Is my memory playing tricks or is this vocal Steve Pratt the same Major
Steve Pratt who got mixed up in the Serb/Croat /Bosnia conflict and
ended up in all sorts of dodo with the Yuogaslav Government for spying
when he was working there for Care Australia.

My, how he has bettered himself. From international diplomatic
incident to slagging off cyclists.

Agree with previous post. Upsetting Canberra cycle commuters is a real
vote looser.

Cheers

Yep, he is the same guy.

As for self-government....we voted against it but the Fed Govt. gave it
to us anyway!!

Cycle lanes, however, RULE!

Rob

Rob,

I assume then that you have provided your feedback to appropriate
members of the ACT Legislative Assembly and the NRMA? We need to make
sure that they hear us. I have already received mail back from the Lib
leader saying that my views will be taken into account during "our
party's discussion on the matter". So maybe there has been a sizeable
backlash.

This goes for any other cyclist that uses or might like to use
Canberra's on-road cycle lanes. Write to the politicians and make sure
your voice is heard! A few replies back in this thread is Pedal Power's
message with the relevant email addresses.

Patrick

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

As for self-government....we voted against it but the Fed Govt. gave it
to us anyway!!

Cycle lanes, however, RULE!

Rob

Rob,

I assume then that you have provided your feedback to appropriate
members of the ACT Legislative Assembly and the NRMA? We need to make
sure that they hear us. I have already received mail back from the Lib
leader saying that my views will be taken into account during "our
party's discussion on the matter". So maybe there has been a sizeable
backlash.

This goes for any other cyclist that uses or might like to use
Canberra's on-road cycle lanes. Write to the politicians and make sure
your voice is heard! A few replies back in this thread is Pedal Power's
message with the relevant email addresses.

Patrick

Thanks for the heads up, I have sent in some thoughts.

Rob

RobWoozle said:

Thanks for the heads up, I have sent in some thoughts.

Curious to realise that Peter Shmigel, the Liberal candidate for Balmain, is interested in cyclists opinions in order to formulate the NSW Liberals cycling policy, refer here to a Survey Monkey poll that apparently ended on September 29th:

http://www.surveymonkey.com/s.asp?u=427942371239

cfsmtb said:

Curious to realise that Peter Shmigel, the Liberal candidate for Balmain, is interested in cyclists opinions in order to formulate the NSW Liberals cycling policy, refer here to a Survey Monkey poll that apparently ended on September 29th:

surveymonkey.coms.aspOpen ↗

I sent a quick email to John Hargreaves in the ACT govt.

I'm sure that he wont mind me sharing his response with this forum - as I think his attitude is wonderful.

A good, strong statement - don't know the man or his politics but, I wish I could vote for him.

SCotty

[center][center] [/center]
[/center]
[font=Tahoma]From:[/font][font=Tahoma] Hargreaves John [[email hidden]]
Sent: Tuesday, 17 October 2006 9:22 AM
To: Scott R. Ratcliff
Subject: RE: Bicycle Lanes[/font]

[font=Arial]Many thanks for your email. May I assure you that the Govt has no intention of changing its policy. It is the right policy, has positive health outcomes, contributes to our sustainable transport plan, has positive environmental impacts, and is the safest way we can cater for commuting cyclists. I have called for the NRMA report and will be seeking the views of the federal Dept of Transport and Regional Services. [/font]

[font=Arial]Notwithstanding the content of any response from these two, we will merely refine our policy not change it. The lanes are here to stay.[/font]

[font=Arial]Thanks for your support.[/font]

[font=&quot]John Hargreaves MLA[/font]

[font=&quot]Member for Brindabella[/font]

[font=&quot]Minister for the Territory and Municipal Services[/font]

[font=&quot]Minister for the Environment and Sustainability[/font]

[font=&quot]Minister for Housing [/font]

[font=&quot]Minister for Multicultural Affairs[/font]

[center][center] [/center]
[/center]
[font=Tahoma]From:[/font][font=Tahoma] Scott R. Ratcliff [[email hidden]]
Sent: Saturday, 14 October 2006 11:24 PM
To: Hargreaves John
Subject: Bicycle Lanes[/font]

[font=Arial]Sir,[/font]

[font=Arial]As a frequent visitor (and former resident whilst at uni many moons ago) to your city can I please congratulate your city on it’s excellent and improving system of on and off-road bicycle lanes and paths. [/font]

[font=Arial]Your city seems light years ahead of mine (Sydney) in terms of provision for sustainable transport, pollution reduction and the fight against obesity.[/font]

[font=Arial]What a joy it is to be able to quickly and safely commute between the town-centres of Canberra and Woden (for example) by bike quickly, safely and without harm to the environment.[/font]

[font=Arial]Please do not allow unfounded criticisms by the likes of the NRMA (of which I am a dissenting member) to sway your government from its excellent initiative of providing bicycle lanes along major traffic routes. Sydney’s various authorities could learn much from your city.[/font]

[font=Arial]Regards[/font]

[font=Arial]Scott Ratcliff[/font]

[font=Arial]Strathfield..NSW[/font]