Equestrian posts

in message <[email hidden]>, Paul

Boyd (') said:

On 14/07/2006 21:50, Danny Colyer said,

Quoted message said:

I mentioned this to a few people at work today, who were all appalled
by
the idea of letting horses on the cyclepath. They included our web
designer, who is cycling to work about once a fortnight during the
summer (maybe he'll manage a bit more from next week, when the A4's
closed). His comment was: "I'm not slowing down for them".

That attitude is why we have a bad reputation! I'm not sure I would
like the idea of having horses on a cyclepath either, but I'm sure
horseriders don't want cyclists on bridleways. In fact, I know they
don't, which is why I always give way, call out a friendly greeting,
and generally be as pleasant as possible in a one-man attempt to
generate
some goodwill. It's a shame that the various groups can't just get on
and tolerate each other.

Another of the interesting side effects of the Land Reform Act is that in
Scotland we've no choice but to get along with each other. The law says
you can go almost anywhere on a bike, and in particular cannot normally
be banned from any path or trackway. The law says exactly the same for
equestrians. So you can't legally ban horses from a cycle path nor
cyclists from a horse path; we have to learn to rub along together. And
seeing I greatly appreciate the legal right for cyclists to go more or
less anywhere, I'm not going to campaign to ban horses.

It's still a bit disconcerting when you meet a horse coming the wrong way
up a bit of red grade singletrack...

--
[email hidden] (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/

;; L'etat c'est moi -- Louis XVI
;; I... we... the Government -- Tony Blair

On Fri, 14 Jul 2006 21:58:37 +0100 someone who may be Danny Colyer
<[email hidden]> wrote this:-

Quoted message said:

I've actually overheard councillors discussing this and
expressing disbelief that anyone could possibly object to the scheme.

Many party politicians do seem to have their brains removed when
elected.

--
David Hansen, Edinburgh
I will *always* explain revoked encryption keys, unless RIP prevents me
http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2000/00023--e.htm#54

On Fri, 14 Jul 2006 21:59:00 +0100 someone who may be Danny Colyer
<[email hidden]> wrote this:-

Quoted message said:

I'm fairly confident, though,
that there will be a KSI long before the end of the trial, in which case
a log of incidents may not be necessary.

It will undoubtedly be blamed on the cyclist.

Have the "brains" behind this produced a safety audit?

--
David Hansen, Edinburgh
I will *always* explain revoked encryption keys, unless RIP prevents me
http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2000/00023--e.htm#54

On 15/07/2006 12:24, Simon Brooke said,

Quoted message said:

Another of the interesting side effects of the Land Reform Act is that in
Scotland we've no choice but to get along with each other. The law says
you can go almost anywhere on a bike, and in particular cannot normally
be banned from any path or trackway. The law says exactly the same for
equestrians.

What a simple idea! None of this wondering whether the path you're on
is still bridleway, or did it become footpath at the last stile? No
"I've got right of way over you", because everyone's equal. Why on
earth can't politicians further south just stop faffing about and do the
same thing? Just so long as they make the red-socks toe the line, it
should all be so much better for everyone.

Quoted message said:

It's still a bit disconcerting when you meet a horse coming the wrong way
up a bit of red grade singletrack...

Not quite on the same scale, but this afternoon I was pottering down a
steep-ish bermed mini-downhill course, and a great big alsatian came
sloppering up the hill to say hello. Not right now, please!!!!

I did meet a horse-rider, and stopped to let her pass going up a hill
(not because I'd run out of oxygen, honest!). Later on, she returned
the courtesy on a downhill stretch. See, different groups of path users
can get along.

Oh, I also had an unscheduled nut/stem interface event. Really must
keep a closer eye out for small logs on very steep uphills!

--
Paul Boyd
http://www.paul-boyd.co.uk/

I said:

Quoted message said:

I've actually overheard councillors discussing this and
expressing disbelief that anyone could possibly object to the scheme.

and Paul Boyd responded:

Quoted message said:

I bet the number of these councillors who actually ride either a horse
or a bike is a nice round number. Zero!

Surprisingly enough, one of the councillors who I heard discussing this
was a keen cyclist. Another, OTOH, is unable to ride a bike, somewhat
unfortunate IMHO given that she has overall responsibility for transport
in South Gloucestershire.

--
Danny Colyer <URL:http://www.colyer.plus.com/danny/>
Subscribe to PlusNet <URL:http://www.colyer.plus.com/referral/>
"He who dares not offend cannot be honest." - Thomas Paine

Paul Boyd said:

That attitude is why we have a bad reputation! I'm not sure I would
like the idea of having horses on a cyclepath either, but I'm sure
horseriders don't want cyclists on bridleways. In fact, I know they
don't, which is why I always give way, call out a friendly greeting, and
generally be as pleasant as possible in a one-man attempt to generate
some goodwill

I have to say that, if I had been around in the days when CTC was
campaigning for cyclists to be allowed on bridleways, it is probably not
a campaign that I would have supported. Bikes and horses don't mix.

I can see two important differences, though, between allowing bikes on
bridleways and allowing horses on cyclepaths.

First, you don't tend to get so many small children learning bike
handling skills on bridleways. The Bath-Bristol cyclepath is very
popular for this.

Second, my understanding is that it is extremely rare for cyclists to
[censored] in the middle of bridleways. Equestrians like to counter this
argument with: "grow up, its only fermented grass". But they're not the
ones who then have to clean "fermented grass" off of their clothes,
children and bikes at the end of what should be a clean ride.

--
Danny Colyer <URL:http://www.colyer.plus.com/danny/>
Subscribe to PlusNet <URL:http://www.colyer.plus.com/referral/>
"He who dares not offend cannot be honest." - Thomas Paine

David Hansen said:

Have the "brains" behind this produced a safety audit?

The following was posted to the Bristol Cycling Campaign mailing list 18
months ago by Richard Burton of this parish. It doesn't say much for
their safety considerations:

I attended the BANES Scrutiny Panel meeting yesterday, and was allowed
to make a presentation (called "disgraceful" by two councillors!) as
were the horseriders, Ramblers, police, NFU and a couple of others.

During the presentations, the horsey people claimed that there was no
risk whatsoever from introducing horses onto cycle paths. They claimed
that this was proved by a report from Surrey university, which no
cyclists were familiar with, since we haven't had time to do the
research. I downloaded a copy today
http://www.countryside.gov.uk/WiderWelcome/Greenways/publications/index.asp?printable=true

Far from proving anything about horse/cyclist conflict, it isn't even
clear whether the researchers observed a single interaction/passing
movement between a cyclist and a horse. They also carefully selected
the sites to be observed by making sure that they were dead straight and
quite wide, and so automatically excluded the areas where conflict was
likely to occur. They did discover that pedestrians wouldn't walk where
they felt threatened by cyclists: this effect will be multiplied by horses.

The chair of the meeting complimented the horsey people on "their
comprehensive report". I had to point out in my presentation that they
had had 10 months to produce it, whilst we had had a couple of weeks,
including Christmas and new year. It hardly seems fair that one side
has 10 months and the other has a couple of weeks at the busiest holiday
time.

All of the councillors mentioned the lack of consultation, but the one
who criticised this error the most was in favour of a quick decision,
apparently without any further consultation! There appears to be no
reason why this decision should be made urgently, so I'm not sure why
the councillor wants it made asap, and the only reason he gave was that
the horsey people were waiting.

If you live in BANES, please consider writing to your local councillor,
demanding equal consultation with the horse lobby, but please make it
soon! The officers will now compile a draft report, which will then be
agreed by the panel, but there was no indication of how long this will take.

--
Danny Colyer <URL:http://www.colyer.plus.com/danny/>
Subscribe to PlusNet <URL:http://www.colyer.plus.com/referral/>
"He who dares not offend cannot be honest." - Thomas Paine

I said:

The following was posted to the Bristol Cycling Campaign mailing list 18
months ago...

And FWIW this is a copy of the e-mail that I sent to certain people at
BANES in November 2004, when I first became aware of the scheme:

I was horrified to read of a proposal to permit equestrians to use the
Bath-Bristol cyclepath: <http://tinyurl.com/466td> leads to
<http://www.bathnes.gov.uk/committee_papers/Executive/WL2004/WL041029/01E496HorseRiding.htm>

I was then appalled to see that the list of consultees did not include a
single cycling organisation. At the very least I would have expected
the CTC, Sustrans, Bristol Cycling Campaign and Bath Cycling Campaign to
have been consulted on a proposal with such significant implications for
the safety of cyclists.

The cyclepath fulfils two main functions for cyclists. First, it
provides a safe and pleasant alternative to the A4 for those of us who
commute between the two cities. Second, it provides a safe environment
for young and inexperienced cyclists to develop their cycling skills.

The introduction of large, easily frightened animals will have an
adverse effect on safety. Children who have been taken out to enjoy a
safe cycling environment will find themselves riding with their heads
alongside the knees of animals prone to kicking when scared. Because
the path is not wide, commuters will find themselves having to pass far
too close to these dangerous animals on a daily basis.

I am reminded of the case of Anthony Bevin, a cyclist and B&NES council
worker who was killed in 2001 by a horse which was apparently frightened
by the red shirt worn by one of his riding companions:
<URL:http://tinyurl.com/52wor> leads to
<URL:http://www.thisiswiltshire.co.uk/wiltshire/archive/2002/01/04/warm_news_local23ZM.html>

Furthermore, the mess left behind by horses will make the cycling
environment much less pleasant. This is already a problem, due to the
few equestrians who use the cyclepath illegally.

The argument for allowing equestrians to use the cyclepath is that the
roads are not safe for them. The correct solution is not to endanger
cyclists by requiring them to mix with horses, but rather to make the
roads safer for all road users. This can be done by proper education of
drivers and by rigorous enforcement of road traffic laws.

--
Danny Colyer <URL:http://www.colyer.plus.com/danny/>
Subscribe to PlusNet <URL:http://www.colyer.plus.com/referral/>
"He who dares not offend cannot be honest." - Thomas Paine

On 16/07/2006 00:19, Danny Colyer said,

Quoted message said:

First, you don't tend to get so many small children learning bike
handling skills on bridleways. The Bath-Bristol cyclepath is very
popular for this.

It is, and I would hope that horse-riders would behave as responsibly as
they expect cyclists to on bridleways. Just a thought, have the
council actually thought to ask horse-riders if they want to use the
cyclepath?

Quoted message said:

Second, my understanding is that it is extremely rare for cyclists to
[censored] in the middle of bridleways. Equestrians like to counter this
argument with: "grow up, its only fermented grass". But they're not the
ones who then have to clean "fermented grass" off of their clothes,
children and bikes at the end of what should be a clean ride.

I have that problem on my commuter route - and the horses are riding on
shared footpaths/cyclepaths, which AFAIK they're not allowed to do.
There obviously aren't many rose-growers on that route (or rhubarb!!)

--
Paul Boyd
http://www.paul-boyd.co.uk/

On 16/07/2006 00:25, Danny Colyer said,

Quoted message said:

The following was posted to the Bristol Cycling Campaign mailing list 18
months ago by Richard Burton of this parish. It doesn't say much for
their safety considerations:

Ah- the horsey people have been asked then - 10 months before the
cyclists. Hmmm....

--
Paul Boyd
http://www.paul-boyd.co.uk/

Paul Boyd said:

Just a thought, have the
council actually thought to ask horse-riders if they want to use the
cyclepath?

I know there were equestrians who supported the idea (probably the same
ones who already use the path illegally). ISTR the BHS was not keen on
the idea, but ICBW.

I've only spoken to one regular equestrian about it (a work colleague,
whose GF owns a horse). His condemnation of the plan was the strongest
that I've encountered.

--
Danny Colyer <URL:http://www.colyer.plus.com/danny/>
"He who dares not offend cannot be honest." - Thomas Paine

On Sun, 16 Jul 2006 00:25:25 +0100 someone who may be Danny Colyer
<[email hidden]> wrote this:-

Quoted message said:

The following was posted to the Bristol Cycling Campaign mailing list 18
months ago by Richard Burton of this parish. It doesn't say much for
their safety considerations:

I attended the BANES Scrutiny Panel meeting yesterday, and was allowed
to make a presentation (called "disgraceful" by two councillors!) as
were the horseriders, Ramblers, police, NFU and a couple of others.

At lunch time I happened upon an advertisement for these bods. This
shows a person on a bicycle, I believe the design is called a
"mountain bike" (whatever that is), with the rear wheel on the
bonnet of a car and the front wheel on the rear windscreen of
another car. The person featured is obviously no cyclist, as she is
pedalling with her instep rather then the balls of her feet and the
shoes have rather flexible soles by the look of it. Her skirt is
about the right length for a crossbar style bike, but her tights
(they seem to be tights) are probably too hot for comfort at this
time of the year. She is wearing a h"£$%t, but no gloves (or indeed
knee and shin pads) which would be far more useful in such a stunt.

In conclusion, it seems they know bugger all about cycling.

--
David Hansen, Edinburgh
I will *always* explain revoked encryption keys, unless RIP prevents me
http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2000/00023--e.htm#54

David Hansen said:

On Sun, 16 Jul 2006 00:25:25 +0100 someone who may be Danny Colyer
<[email hidden]> wrote this:-

Quoted message said:

The following was posted to the Bristol Cycling Campaign mailing list 18
months ago by Richard Burton of this parish. It doesn't say much for
their safety considerations:

I attended the BANES Scrutiny Panel meeting yesterday, and was allowed
to make a presentation (called "disgraceful" by two councillors!) as
were the horseriders, Ramblers, police, NFU and a couple of others.

At lunch time I happened upon an advertisement for these bods.

To which bods were you referring?
...d

On 17 Jul 2006 06:53:02 -0700 someone who may be "David Martin"
<[email hidden]> wrote this:-

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I attended the BANES Scrutiny Panel meeting yesterday, and was allowed
to make a presentation (called "disgraceful" by two councillors!) as
were the horseriders, Ramblers, police, NFU and a couple of others.

At lunch time I happened upon an advertisement for these bods.

To which bods were you referring?

The ones who have come up with this daft idea, the council.

--
David Hansen, Edinburgh
I will *always* explain revoked encryption keys, unless RIP prevents me
http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2000/00023--e.htm#54