EPO? Yes of no?

Nas_kaj said:

I like how I made the title rhyme. Anyway, how can someone (not me of course, hehehehheeh) obtain this highly coveted substance. What are the legal parameters surrounding it? What are the side effects?

Get cancer, and then develop issues with your blood chemistry. Sure, there's the risk the cancer might kill you, but in reality, I doubt anyone would miss you.

It is a legal perscription drug, usually used as part of treatments that decrease your red blood count. It kept Lance alive while he was being hammered with his cancer treatment for example.

It is legal in competition (or training) as it is highly dangerous as well as being an artifical boost to performance. The effect of the drug is to induce your body to produce more red blood cells. If you have a healthy red blood cell count your body will produce more faster than the old one die off, and depending on the amount of EPO your levels could get very high.

The obvious risk is that your blood could become too viscous, and you could have a heart attack from the heart having to work too hard just to pump your thick blood.
You could have a stroke or pop a blood vessel due to the increased arterial pressures.
I think there are even issues when you inject it (I've heard of atheletes waking every two hours to do squats after injecting the stuff).
There is nothing known of the long term effects, and it has been suggested there could be long term neurological issues (hard to prove).

Its quite simple...unless you are going to die and your doctor wants you to take it to stay alive under thier close watch.........then don't do it.

Phill P said:

It is a legal perscription drug, usually used as part of treatments that decrease your red blood count. It kept Lance alive while he was being hammered with his cancer treatment for example.

It is legal in competition (or training) as it is highly dangerous as well as being an artifical boost to performance. The effect of the drug is to induce your body to produce more red blood cells. If you have a healthy red blood cell count your body will produce more faster than the old one die off, and depending on the amount of EPO your levels could get very high.

The obvious risk is that your blood could become too viscous, and you could have a heart attack from the heart having to work too hard just to pump your thick blood.
You could have a stroke or pop a blood vessel due to the increased arterial pressures.
I think there are even issues when you inject it (I've heard of atheletes waking every two hours to do squats after injecting the stuff).
There is nothing known of the long term effects, and it has been suggested there could be long term neurological issues (hard to prove).

Its quite simple...unless you are going to die and your doctor wants you to take it to stay alive under thier close watch.........then don't do it.

Good thing Phill P set me straight. I didn't know it could be that severe but, can't you just take blood out of your system, and inject it back into yourself before a race?

For real? You're being even a tiny bit serious? Of course, even if you are joking, you have incredibly poor taste. Why not just pack a gun. Someone gets too far ahead of you, just shoot them. It's about the same level of ethics and morality.

John "I can't believe I responded to this" Swanson
www.bikephysics.com

ScienceIsCool said:

For real? You're being even a tiny bit serious? Of course, even if you are joking, you have incredibly poor taste. Why not just pack a gun. Someone gets too far ahead of you, just shoot them. It's about the same level of ethics and morality.

John "I can't believe I responded to this" Swanson
www.bikephysics.com

Oh my god, that would be an even better idea! Just to set the record straight, I had no intentions of getting it. All questions asked are just for the sake of seeking knowledge. We all know that performance enhancing drugs all have bad side effects and is just ethically wrong. On top of that, I don't have time to compete, so it would be pointless for me anyways. Lighten up guys!

What the Astana riders got done for last year, and what that Spanish mess was over, was blood doping.

EPO can be tested for. The point of EPO is to increase red blood cell count.

However one way to have more red blood cells is to just provide some more red blood cells.
Method #1 (harder to detect) is to provide a pint of blood during the off season when you aren't training and need the red blood cells. You spin it down and the dense red blood cells can be seperated. During the season you reject them. This can only be detected by measuring the maturity levels of red blood cells. If you have a high percentage of mature cells to developing it suggested something has been altered. They also track the red blood cell levels over the course of many tests, and have an upper level that is considered "normal" that sets of red flags.
Method #2 (used by Astana because thier Spanish/German Doctors were out of business) do the same proceedure but use somebody elses blood (family member so the cells aren't rejected by immune system). This is easier to detect as you have two different sets of red blood cells.

Side effects.....much the same as EPO....blood too thick, heart explodes.

Doing this stuff is dangerous, and hence stupid.

Cheating is only cheating if it is against the rules. I don't think you should be allowed to take pain killing medication stronger than aspiron. What about dietry supplements? If it isn't in your food should it be in your mouth?

Gee never seen John so fired up before.......:eek:

Phill P said:

It is legal in competition (or training) as it is highly dangerous as well as being an artifical boost to performance. The effect of the drug is to induce your body to produce more red blood cells. If you have a healthy red blood cell count your body will produce more faster than the old one die off, and depending on the amount of EPO your levels could get very high.

By legal, you mean illegal?

Nas_kaj said:

I like how I made the title rhyme. Anyway, how can someone (not me of course, hehehehheeh) obtain this highly coveted substance. What are the legal parameters surrounding it? What are the side effects?

http://www.eposino.com/ they also have a forum, i cannot remember the address for the forum though. Plenty of info there though.
In no way do i condone the use of PED's in training or competition. You asked a question i have given you the answer.
http://eposino.com/yabb/YaBB.pl this is the forum address.

ScienceIsCool said:

For real? You're being even a tiny bit serious? Of course, even if you are joking, you have incredibly poor taste. Why not just pack a gun. Someone gets too far ahead of you, just shoot them. It's about the same level of ethics and morality.

John "I can't believe I responded to this" Swanson
www.bikephysics.com

So killing the guy in front of you is the same as potentially killing yourself for a possible win. That's a stretch.

If it's not against the rules, is it cheating? Doping can probably offer you the same advantages as having a very good coach as oppose to not having a coach. We all know that your choice in a coach won't get you arrested. Is being unethical almost equivalent to breaking the law?

Nas_kaj said:

If it's not against the rules, is it cheating? Doping can probably offer you the same advantages as having a very good coach as oppose to not having a coach. We all know that your choice in a coach won't get you arrested. Is being unethical almost equivalent to breaking the law?

That's a good question.Personally I'm rooting for Roger Clemens but I know alot of folks feel he's in the wrong. Kinda wish congress and everyone else would just let that one go, as what's done is done and no more whining. So what if he lied? If he had been caught at the time then that would be a different story.

Personally I agree with the comments of the posters on this thread that EPO is extremely risky for one's health/borderline suicide behavoir just for a little edge on race day, not worth it. Racing should be as simple as may the best trained one win without use of any performance enhancer period. Upon saying that EPO should probably be made illegal as the consequences could be deadly and further more could lead to a lot of bad press.

gemship said:

That's a good question.Personally I'm rooting for Roger Clemens but I know alot of folks feel he's in the wrong. Kinda wish congress and everyone else would just let that one go, as what's done is done and no more whining. So what if he lied? If he had been caught at the time then that would be a different story.

That is just wrong - especially the "so what if he lied". So, it is ok in your book to lie? If Clemens were to be let go, then others would be emboldened to lie with impunity. And the one of the reasons he was not caught was the lax or inexistant attitude towards doping.

gemship said:

Personally I agree with the comments of the posters on this thread that EPO is extremely risky for one's health/borderline suicide behavoir just for a little edge on race day, not worth it. Racing should be as simple as may the best trained one win without use of any performance enhancer period. Upon saying that EPO should probably be made illegal as the consequences could be deadly and further more could lead to a lot of bad press.

AFAIK, EPO is a PED, and is not legal in competitive sports - am I wrong about this?

EPO is a PED. It is illegal to use unless you can prove a medical necessity to use it. And believe me, if you are prescribed it by your doc chances are you are more concerned with trying to stay alive than competing on your bike.

TheDarkLord said:

That is just wrong - especially the "so what if he lied". So, it is ok in your book to lie? If Clemens were to be let go, then others would be emboldened to lie with impunity. And the one of the reasons he was not caught was the lax or inexistant attitude towards doping.
r it.

AFAIK, EPO is a PED, and is not legal in competitive sports - am I wrong about this?

Perhaps we should punish all of baseball. Start with the players and move on to the owners,managing staff, heck even the commisioner for a lax approach. Honestly I like Clemens and at the same time not a big fan so no big deal. I just hate seeing what some of the crybabies like Conseco and others with illusions of granduer taking down the sport griping about the past. Yes change the sport for today with a non lax treatment of PED just don't butchestaying on topic as I know I picked a bad analogy/ losing arguement offtopic. I know nothing of the science of enhancing red blood cells or how this relates to a performance increase and health risk. Interesting topic, just when I thought this forum was stale. :p

Nas_kaj said:

1.If it's not against the rules, is it cheating? 2.Doping can probably offer you the same advantages as having a very good coach as oppose to not having a coach. We all know that your choice in a coach won't get you arrested. Is being unethical almost equivalent to breaking the law?

I am a former user and dealer of PED's (did not deal or use EPO)

1. In most sporting event it is against the rules. It was not against the rules in the cult activity of bodybuilding, which is what I competed in. It is actually condoned in that activity. However, participating on that side of the fence nearly ruined my life from a legal view and it did ruin my contact's life in NYC while trying to bring in product from South Africa. From a health view I have known associates that have died from health complications not directly related to PED's, but it is strange that several did not make into their 40's. I may or may not have future health problems.
2. Depends, but that thought is a poor attitude and poor logic - IMO.

Nas_kaj said:

If it's not against the rules, is it cheating? Doping can probably offer you the same advantages as having a very good coach as oppose to not having a coach. We all know that your choice in a coach won't get you arrested. Is being unethical almost equivalent to breaking the law?

You are mixing measures, against the rules versus cheating. Rules is similar to legal, and the measure for that is beyond a shadow of doubt. Cheating, it an ethical perimeter, and I would use a much lower threshold.

I want professional sports to be a competition against self development, NOT a measure of how the body can be changed artifically to win.

Your choice of a coach is about self development, taking PED's is changing your body artifically; so being unethical when done beyond a shadow of a doubt is breaking the law.

buckybux said:

You are mixing measures, against the rules versus cheating. Rules is similar to legal, and the measure for that is beyond a shadow of doubt. Cheating, it an ethical perimeter, and I would use a much lower threshold.

I want professional sports to be a competition against self development, NOT a measure of how the body can be changed artifically to win.

Your choice of a coach is about self development, taking PED's is changing your body artifically; so being unethical when done beyond a shadow of a doubt is breaking the law.

+10. There is a fundamental difference between slaving away while training at 10,000 ft and taking EPO or blood doping. There is no shade of grey between sweating out repeats of hills or doing intervals to get stronger and using HGH. That there is a forum dedicated to helping people with their doping efforts shows just how pathetic and sad those people are. Sport should be all about effort. There is zero effort in putting on a testosterone patch.

TheDarkLord said:

That is just wrong - especially the "so what if he lied". So, it is ok in your book to lie? If Clemens were to be let go, then others would be emboldened to lie with impunity. And the one of the reasons he was not caught was the lax or inexistant attitude towards doping.

AFAIK, EPO is a PED, and is not legal in competitive sports - am I wrong about this?

Lance was given EPO during his treatment. I guess with proper documentation, a cyclist could compete legally with it. They do with other drugs that are PED, unless supplemented by a legit MD's perscription.

Nas_kaj said:

Good thing Phill P set me straight. I didn't know it could be that severe but, can't you just take blood out of your system, and inject it back into yourself before a race?

Blood doping, legal until 1985. Tough on your liver as well as your heart and brain.