EPO and Hobby Cyclists

Is EPO really that easy to get ahold of and is it really that dangerous ??

http://sport.guardian.co.uk/cycling/story/0,10482,1178479,00.html

http://uk.sports.yahoo.com/040325/2/2rhp.html

http://bicycling.about.com/library/weekly/aa052800a.htm

http://bicycling.about.com/library/weekly/aa022199.htm

IMO, EPO is of little practical value to anyone but an elite athlete (and of
course those with serious medical conditions).

Increasing the amount of oxygen available to muscles will only help if the
muscles are trained to such a state that they can use all the oxygen already
available. If your muscles are not able to use all the oxygen available (the
case with most of us), increasing red blood cells to provide more oxygen
(the action of EPO) won't be of much help.

Gunny Bunny said:

Is EPO really that easy to get ahold of and is it really that
dangerous ??

http://sport.guardian.co.uk/cycling/story/0,10482,1178479,00.html

http://uk.sports.yahoo.com/040325/2/2rhp.html

http://bicycling.about.com/library/weekly/aa052800a.htm

http://bicycling.about.com/library/weekly/aa022199.htm

Oh, u make some good points there 🙂

However, I tend to disagree, we all get tired 'eventually' and gasp for air,
if we have more platelets, we would not tire as quickly.

"trg" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

IMO, EPO is of little practical value to anyone but an elite athlete (and

of

Quoted message said:

course those with serious medical conditions).

Increasing the amount of oxygen available to muscles will only help if the
muscles are trained to such a state that they can use all the oxygen

already

Quoted message said:

available. If your muscles are not able to use all the oxygen available

(the

Quoted message said:

case with most of us), increasing red blood cells to provide more oxygen
(the action of EPO) won't be of much help.

Gunny Bunny said:

Is EPO really that easy to get ahold of and is it really that
dangerous ??

http://sport.guardian.co.uk/cycling/story/0,10482,1178479,00.html

http://uk.sports.yahoo.com/040325/2/2rhp.html

http://bicycling.about.com/library/weekly/aa052800a.htm

http://bicycling.about.com/library/weekly/aa022199.htm

Quoted message said:

However, I tend to disagree, we all get tired 'eventually' and gasp for air,
if we have more platelets, we would not tire as quickly.

Platelets or something else?

jw

Gunny Bunny said:

However, I tend to disagree, we all get tired 'eventually' and gasp for
air, if we have more platelets, we would not tire as quickly.

Well, if you don't mind gambling with your health.....

Why do you think it's banned?

Derk

On Sat, 17 Apr 2004 12:02:47 -0400, "Gunny Bunny" <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

"trg" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

IMO, EPO is of little practical value to anyone but an elite athlete (and

of

Quoted message said:

course those with serious medical conditions).

Increasing the amount of oxygen available to muscles will only help if the
muscles are trained to such a state that they can use all the oxygen

already

Quoted message said:

available. If your muscles are not able to use all the oxygen available

(the

Quoted message said:

case with most of us), increasing red blood cells to provide more oxygen
(the action of EPO) won't be of much help.

Gunny Bunny said:

Is EPO really that easy to get ahold of and is it really that
dangerous ??

http://sport.guardian.co.uk/cycling/story/0,10482,1178479,00.html

http://uk.sports.yahoo.com/040325/2/2rhp.html

http://bicycling.about.com/library/weekly/aa052800a.htm

http://bicycling.about.com/library/weekly/aa022199.htm

Oh, u make some good points there 🙂

However, I tend to disagree, we all get tired 'eventually' and gasp for air,
if we have more platelets, we would not tire as quickly.

Platelets have nothing to do with performance enhancement using EPO,
or with the carrying of O2 in the bloodstream.

EPO stimulates the production of red blood cells, pushing more of
those critters into the bloodstream, providing more oxygen carrying
capablility.

Truth is, most of us don't use all the oxygen already provided in our
blood. Our muscles just aren't "trained" to that level yet, unlike
the elite athletes. Increasing the capacity won't help if you can't
muscles don't max out the draw for what is already there.

In fact, you place yourself in jeopard. You clog your bloodstream
with more rbcs, raising your hematocrit level, but when you go out and
sweat, you lower the plasma level, becoming more and more likely to
form an embolis - and die.

Improper use of EPO can and has killed people. Don't play with this
one folks.

"BaCardi" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Fred said:

It's virtually impossible to get, if you're a moron.

http://www.noprescriptiondrugs.com/pharm93.htmlhttp://www.noprescriptio-

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

ndrugs.com/pharm93.html

This is totally irresponsible for you to post a link to an online
pharmacy where you can supposedly buy this stuff. 1) This stuff is
dangerous and 2) There are illegal pharmacies like this one all over the
place. You could do a search on google and find a lot of these places.
They are illegal in the USA, Canada, Eurpeon nations, etc. I've read
about places like this. They take your money and run.

EPO is and should be prescribed by physicians. It is a prescription drug
and is illegal to purchase without consent and supervision from a
doctor. The stuff is highly dangerous. Your suggestion of a place to buy
the stuff is out of line. To the OP, DON'T DO IT!

Well, Patani did it and it worked for him !!

"NobodyMan" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

EPO stimulates the production of red blood cells, pushing more of
those critters into the bloodstream, providing more oxygen carrying
capablility.

Truth is, most of us don't use all the oxygen already provided in our
blood. Our muscles just aren't "trained" to that level yet, unlike
the elite athletes. Increasing the capacity won't help if you can't
muscles don't max out the draw for what is already there.

This is not true.

Andy Coggan

On Sat, 17 Apr 2004 08:08:38 -0400, "Gunny Bunny" <[email hidden]> may

have said:

Is EPO really that easy to get ahold of

Yes.

Quoted message said:

and is it really that dangerous ??

Yes, if improperly used. Of course, for some people, the only safe
dose is zero. In light of the lack of ability for the average person
to evaluate the drug's safety for their own use, do you want to take
the risk given the small benefit that might theoretically be obtained?
Bear in mind that the most probable outcome of its use for someone who
is not a competitive-level athlete is that you won't be able to tell
much of a difference if any...

--
My email address is antispammed; pull WEEDS if replying via e-mail.
Typoes are not a bug, they're a feature.
Words processed in a facility that contains nuts.

Andy Coggan said:

"NobodyMan" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

EPO stimulates the production of red blood cells, pushing more of
those critters into the bloodstream, providing more oxygen carrying
capablility.

Truth is, most of us don't use all the oxygen already provided in our
blood. Our muscles just aren't "trained" to that level yet, unlike
the elite athletes. Increasing the capacity won't help if you can't
muscles don't max out the draw for what is already there.

This is not true.

Andy Coggan

Research cites to back this, please?

"Andy Coggan" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"NobodyMan" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

EPO stimulates the production of red blood cells, pushing more of
those critters into the bloodstream, providing more oxygen carrying
capablility.

Truth is, most of us don't use all the oxygen already provided in our
blood. Our muscles just aren't "trained" to that level yet, unlike
the elite athletes. Increasing the capacity won't help if you can't
muscles don't max out the draw for what is already there.

This is not true.

I wonder where people pick up these myths. EPO is beginning to have more
myths about it than helmets.

"Gunny Bunny" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Is EPO really that easy to get ahold of and is it really that dangerous ??

EPO is of little worth to a normal human being. If you're like most every
other humans on the planet you already have a hematocrit of somewhere
between 42% and 50% NORMALLY. Most recreational racers/riders will already
be from 46%-48%. Stress will be a major factor in RBC lifespan for you.

If you are highly trained athlete who has been training very hard over a
long period of time your hematocrit can fall not so much from not being able
to replace RBC's fast enough as from increasing your total blood volume from
training. You can also reduce the numbers of RBC's from extended anaerobic
training.

Most people aren't going to train this hard or this long. Therefore, EPO
isn't of much use to someone that isn't a highly trained athlete since
additional slight gains in oxygen carrying capacity aren't matched by
additional total blood volume.

EPO forces the body to produce additional RBC's. However, it ain't magic. If
you use it too often and in too high doses, it can cause some pretty serious
side effects ranging from your marrow being depleted of immature RBC's to
developing an allergy to your own EPO which of course means curtains.

So the long and the short of it are that it does almost nothing to a normal
cyclist and can end up killing you. Does that sound like a good tradeoff to
you?

"NobodyMan" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Truth is, most of us don't use all the oxygen already provided in our
blood. Our muscles just aren't "trained" to that level yet, unlike
the elite athletes. Increasing the capacity won't help if you can't
muscles don't max out the draw for what is already there.

This is not true.

Andy Coggan

Research cites to back this, please?

1. Get on an airplane. Fly to Fresno, CA. Watch out for queers. Drive east
to Mt. Whitney trailhead. Hike to summit.

2. Take some EPO. Repeat #1. Your journey will be easier, no matter whether
you have increased your fitness or not.

On 4/18/04 2:22 PM, in article [email hidden], "Carl

Sundquist said:

"NobodyMan" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>
> Truth is, most of us don't use all the oxygen already provided in our
> blood. Our muscles just aren't "trained" to that level yet, unlike
> the elite athletes. Increasing the capacity won't help if you can't
> muscles don't max out the draw for what is already there.

This is not true.

Andy Coggan

Research cites to back this, please?

1. Get on an airplane. Fly to Fresno, CA. Watch out for queers. Drive east
to Mt. Whitney trailhead. Hike to summit.

2. Take some EPO. Repeat #1. Your journey will be easier, no matter whether
you have increased your fitness or not.

Are you saying your "Gaydar" will be enhanced too?

Steve said:

On 4/18/04 2:22 PM, in article [email hidden], "Carl

Sundquist said:

"NobodyMan" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

Quoted message said:

>>Truth is, most of us don't use all the oxygen already provided in our
>>blood. Our muscles just aren't "trained" to that level yet, unlike
>>the elite athletes. Increasing the capacity won't help if you can't
>>muscles don't max out the draw for what is already there.
>
>This is not true.
>
>Andy Coggan
>

Research cites to back this, please?

1. Get on an airplane. Fly to Fresno, CA. Watch out for queers. Drive east
to Mt. Whitney trailhead. Hike to summit.

2. Take some EPO. Repeat #1. Your journey will be easier, no matter whether
you have increased your fitness or not.

Are you saying your "Gaydar" will be enhanced too?

No, the EPO was after that.

Steve

Quoted message said:

"NobodyMan" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Andy Coggan said:

"NobodyMan" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

EPO stimulates the production of red blood cells, pushing more of
those critters into the bloodstream, providing more oxygen carrying
capablility.

Truth is, most of us don't use all the oxygen already provided in our
blood. Our muscles just aren't "trained" to that level yet, unlike
the elite athletes. Increasing the capacity won't help if you can't
muscles don't max out the draw for what is already there.

This is not true.

Andy Coggan

Research cites to back this, please?

They are too numerous to count. But if you want to read some of the more
modern research, go to PubMed and search for studies using search terms such
"polycythemia", "VO2max", "muscle respiratory capacity", etc.

Andy Coggan

"Andy Coggan" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"NobodyMan" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Andy Coggan said:

"NobodyMan" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

> EPO stimulates the production of red blood cells, pushing more of
> those critters into the bloodstream, providing more oxygen carrying
> capablility.
>
> Truth is, most of us don't use all the oxygen already provided in our
> blood. Our muscles just aren't "trained" to that level yet, unlike
> the elite athletes. Increasing the capacity won't help if you can't
> muscles don't max out the draw for what is already there.

This is not true.

Andy Coggan

Research cites to back this, please?

They are too numerous to count. But if you want to read some of the more
modern research, go to PubMed and search for studies using search terms

such

Quoted message said:

"polycythemia", "VO2max", "muscle respiratory capacity", etc.

Andy Coggan

Andy, u made the statement, u should provide at least one to support your
argument if u have one 🙂

"Gunny Bunny" <[email hidden]> wrote in
news:[email hidden]:

Quoted message said:

"Andy Coggan" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"NobodyMan" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

On Sun, 18 Apr 2004 01:37:00 GMT, "Andy Coggan"
<[email hidden]> wrote:

>"NobodyMan" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
>news:[email hidden]...
>
>> EPO stimulates the production of red blood cells, pushing more
>> of those critters into the bloodstream, providing more oxygen
>> carrying capablility.
>>
>> Truth is, most of us don't use all the oxygen already provided
>> in our blood. Our muscles just aren't "trained" to that level
>> yet, unlike the elite athletes. Increasing the capacity won't
>> help if you can't muscles don't max out the draw for what is
>> already there.
>
>This is not true.
>
>Andy Coggan
>
Research cites to back this, please?

They are too numerous to count. But if you want to read some of the
more modern research, go to PubMed and search for studies using
search terms

such

Quoted message said:

"polycythemia", "VO2max", "muscle respiratory capacity", etc.

Andy Coggan

Andy, u made the statement, u should provide at least one to support
your argument if u have one 🙂

Shouldn't it be the guy claiming "The truth is...." first back up his
statement? Dr. Coggan is well known exercise physiologist, and well
respected in these parts. I tend to believe what he says, because he has
some expertise in the field. No offense, but when someone with the
esteemed moniker "NobodyMan" claims that most of us don't use all the
oxygen in out blood....well....why the [censored] should I believe him? Here's
how it works, you first made the claim, Andy called [censored], and you
really need to take a bit of your own advice and, "provide at least one
to support your argument if u have one 🙂"

Gunny Bunny said:

"Andy Coggan" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"NobodyMan" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

On Sun, 18 Apr 2004 01:37:00 GMT, "Andy Coggan"
<[email hidden]> wrote:

> "NobodyMan" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
> news:[email hidden]...
>
>> EPO stimulates the production of red blood cells, pushing more of
>> those critters into the bloodstream, providing more oxygen
>> carrying capablility.
>>
>> Truth is, most of us don't use all the oxygen already provided in
>> our blood. Our muscles just aren't "trained" to that level yet,
>> unlike the elite athletes. Increasing the capacity won't help if
>> you can't muscles don't max out the draw for what is already
>> there.
>
> This is not true.
>
> Andy Coggan
>
Research cites to back this, please?

They are too numerous to count. But if you want to read some of the
more modern research, go to PubMed and search for studies using
search terms such "polycythemia", "VO2max", "muscle respiratory
capacity", etc.

Andy Coggan

Andy, u made the statement, u should provide at least one to support
your argument if u have one 🙂

Even though it runs counter to my personal experience, Andy's word is gold
in this matter. My own experience was so far from a contriolled, quantified
study, that I assume there were other factors mitigating the effects of a
rising crit. I went from a crit of 21 to 56 in little more than a year,
stopping off at around 35 for some months. An interesting experience, but
probably useless in experimental terms.