EPO & 16 year olds!

I love how you have to bring Lance into the fold. I don't believe that Lance is drug free because he says so, i believe he is drug free because he has not tested positive. All the other folks you mention have tested positive at one time or another for doping. No one ever raised a stink about Tyler Hamilton until he tested positive, so why Lance, because he wins too much? Anyway i don't want this to get into a big lance/doping thread, so i'll say that you left out the most important people in your post. Where were this kids parents. A 16 year old is still a minor, his parents need to pay a little more attention. I don't know why when a kid is caught with heroin, or coke, or even pot, we are like "where are his parents, what kind of role models are they?", but then when a kid tests positive for performance enhancing drugs we are like "damn that Lance Armstrong" Circular logic gets you knowwhere.

gregkeller said:

I love how you have to bring Lance into the fold. I don't believe that Lance is drug free because he says so, i believe he is drug free because he has not tested positive. All the other folks you mention have tested positive at one time or another for doping. No one ever raised a stink about Tyler Hamilton until he tested positive, so why Lance, because he wins too much? Anyway i don't want this to get into a big lance/doping thread, so i'll say that you left out the most important people in your post. Where were this kids parents. A 16 year old is still a minor, his parents need to pay a little more attention. I don't know why when a kid is caught with heroin, or coke, or even pot, we are like "where are his parents, what kind of role models are they?", but then when a kid tests positive for performance enhancing drugs we are like "damn that Lance Armstrong" Circular logic gets you knowwhere.

Circular illogic is even less effective.

Thanks for bringing Lance's upstairs tenant and long time teammate into the doping mix, yet another unintended jap at guilt by association.

Anyway, if a 16 year is using EPO you can bet he isn't the only one.

And Lance is the story. As the leader of a discredited sport, he is the symbol of the status quo. And the status quo is doping.

Where were Lance's parents in 1990 at the Colorado Spring Olympic Training Camp? Nowhere.

Erich Kaiter & Greg Strock were only 17 years old, Lance 18, when injections of 3-4 per day were being performed in July 1990.

These kids were under the influence of coaches and trainers, NOT parents. It is a competitive environment and you either go along--or get out!

No middle ground.

Your sentiments for parents are touching, but hardly realistic.

Because you belief in doping controls, you must be delighted that Richard Virenque, David Millar, Alex Zulle, Mark French, Johan Museeuw, Eddie Planckaert, Franceso Moser, Fausto Coppi are all clean riders.

Lance tested positive more than these guys did.

That's a nice safe place to live in.

Umm when did Lance test positive? And there is really no need to rehash the cocortisteroid incident cause I am already familiar with that one and the outcome.

Also where is the documentation about Lance and the other two gentleman receiving unknown injections 3-4 times daily at USOC? I am not saying this did not happen because frankly I don't know. But if it did I would be really interested in reading about it myself. Any info would be great.

Thanks

Flyer said:

Circular illogic is even less effective.

Thanks for bringing Lance's upstairs tenant and long time teammate into the doping mix, yet another unintended jap at guilt by association.

Anyway, if a 16 year is using EPO you can bet he isn't the only one.

And Lance is the story. As the leader of a discredited sport, he is the symbol of the status quo. And the status quo is doping.

Where were Lance's parents in 1990 at the Colorado Spring Olympic Training Camp? Nowhere.

Erich Kaiter & Greg Strock were only 17 years old, Lance 18, when injections of 3-4 per day were being performed in July 1990.

These kids were under the influence of coaches and trainers, NOT parents. It is a competitive environment and you either go along--or get out!

No middle ground.

Your sentiments for parents are touching, but hardly realistic.

Because you belief in doping controls, you must be delighted that Richard Virenque, David Millar, Alex Zulle, Mark French, Johan Museeuw, Eddie Planckaert, Franceso Moser, Fausto Coppi are all clean riders.

Lance tested positive more than these guys did.

That's a nice safe place to live in.

Thanks for bringing Lance's upstairs tenant and long time teammate into the doping mix, yet another unintended jap at guilt by association.
- just saying that before tyler tested positive for blood doping, no one was saying, look at him, he won the dauphine, he won liege, he won romandie he must be doped up. So why when lance wins everyone is saying he must be doped?

Anyway, if a 16 year is using EPO you can bet he isn't the only one.
-i'm not saying he is the only one, i'm sure there are cat 5 guys out there doped to the gills so they can win a pizza prime, but that doesn't make it alright.

And Lance is the story. As the leader of a discredited sport, he is the symbol of the status quo. And the status quo is doping.
-since when is cycling discredited, i'd just say they shine the light on dopers and actually seem to be trying to fix the problem more than baseball, or football or any other sport.

Because you belief in doping controls, you must be delighted that Richard Virenque, David Millar, Alex Zulle, Mark French, Johan Museeuw, Eddie Planckaert, Franceso Moser, Fausto Coppi are all clean riders.
- i don't think these are clean riders, they have tested positive, and have served or are currently serving their sentence. so i'm not sure what you are trying to say with this.

Lance tested positive more than these guys did.
-give me evidence and i'll start to give you more credit

All that i'm saying is that you seemed to pull lance into this for no reason. I can't get into this 16 year olds head to see whether or not he said "Lance is great, he must do drugs to be so good, so i should do drugs" but you seem to blame lance, i'd blame the list of riders that have tested positive before those who haven't

[quote="gregkeller"]
- i don't think these are clean riders, they have tested positive, and have served or are currently serving their sentence. so i'm not sure what you are trying to say with this.

Lance tested positive more than these guys did.
-give me evidence and i'll start to give you more credit

None of those guys tested positiver. That is why your reasoning basis is unsound.



All that i'm saying is that you seemed to pull lance into this for no reason.

There are plenty of reason to associate Lance. He is the TDF top dog. He denies doping and he denies the sport has a serious problem. Obviously, he is wrong. Perhaps, he knows the truth, but insists upon a commercial deception?

Go back and google those names and you will find a fascinating story of deception, deceit, "uninformed consent", and Lance, Chris Carmichael, Rene Wenzel, USA Cycling were all there at the very same time. The National team traveled the world from Europe to Japan, and lots more.

Also, check out Michele Ferrari & his teacher Francesco Concini, Lance's performance guru.

Also google Sandro Donati, the former head of Italian Track & Field.

go to: www.ergogenics.org/donati.html

You will can read the dossier of Donati and his incredible dealings with Concini, the father of modern sport blood doping. Michele Ferrari was a student of Concini at the University of Ferrara, where they received grants and used athletes as test guinea pigs.

This takes you back to 1980 and the pre-blood transfusions of all 60 USA Cyclist at the Los Angeles Games. Sound familiar? That was 20 years before Tyler's bovine synthetic plasma irregularities?

That is just more Lance Armstrong background, insofar, as his "performance coaches" are concerned.

The deeper you dig, the uglier it gets.

It is much easier to stay up on a superficial level with regard to dirty injections.

It would be nice to get some credit, since mostly it is abuse and blanket denials.

Oops I mean corticosteroid. My bad.

birdman23 said:

Umm when did Lance test positive? And there is really no need to rehash the cocortisteroid incident cause I am already familiar with that one and the outcome.

Also where is the documentation about Lance and the other two gentleman receiving unknown injections 3-4 times daily at USOC? I am not saying this did not happen because frankly I don't know. But if it did I would be really interested in reading about it myself. Any info would be great.

Thanks

Thanks for the info Flyer. I will check it out.

[quote="Flyer"][quote="gregkeller"]
-

Go back and google those names and you will find a fascinating story of deception, deceit, "uninformed consent", and Lance, Chris Carmichael, Rene Wenzel, USA Cycling were all there at the very same time. The National team traveled the world from Europe to Japan, and lots more.

Also, check out Michele Ferrari & his teacher Francesco Concini, Lance's performance guru.

Also google Sandro Donati, the former head of Italian Track & Field.

go to: www.ergogenics.org/donati.html

You will can read the dossier of Donati and his incredible dealings with Concini, the father of modern sport blood doping. Michele Ferrari was a student of Concini at the University of Ferrara, where they received grants and used athletes as test guinea pigs.

This takes you back to 1980 and the pre-blood transfusions of all 60 USA Cyclist at the Los Angeles Games. Sound familiar? That was 20 years before Tyler's bovine synthetic plasma irregularities?

QUOTE]

greg, just so you know, flyer meant that Virenque, Zulle, Millar et al never failed a dope test - something Armstrong is fond of using as evidence that he is a clean rider - ergo they must all be 'clean' riders.

This case surely must be one to consider for all those who seek to advocate the 'legalisation' of doping on the 'level playing ground' theory. At what age would that allow kids to be doped - at junior level, when they start to show promise, when they first get on a bike.

Yet again, time for the leading lights in the sport to actually stand up and call for the sport to be cleaned up - seems to me the UCI ProTour code of ethics is just a way for the top team club to keep their dopign habits cosily under wraps as ever. Until big name riders - Ullrich, Bettini, Cipollini, Armstrong - stand up and are counted and speak out, not just on their own 'cleanness', but on the need for the sport as a whole to really clean up, then this situation will only get worse.

I don't want you to think this is an argument in any way. I agree with you, now that i know what you were leading towards, with virenque, zulle, et al. that the never tested positive for EPO, but they did test over the legal limit for hematocrit no? I might be misinformed. My main point was that i am starting to get fed up with people always saying lance has to be doped to perform the way he is, yet has never failed a doping test of any kind (whether that means testing positive for a baned substance, or testing over the legal limit for hematocrit, or whatever). Here is all that i am saying, if lance hasn't recorded a positive hit in anything (let's not count aquaintences, because i've had friends that sold drugs, but I never used them, so does that mean i'm guilty because i talked to him?) I am not saying Armstrong is innocent, but people are crying about tyler and saying he isn't guilty until all this stuff is settled. I see him guilty until proven innocent. Armstrong on the other hand is innocent in my book till he has a positive on some test. We can agree to disagree, that's fine with me. Cycling has dopers, but so does every other major sport, and ours is at least doing something to try and fix it.

gregkeller said:

I don't want you to think this is an argument in any way. I agree with you, now that i know what you were leading towards, with virenque, zulle, et al. that the never tested positive for EPO, but they did test over the legal limit for hematocrit no? I might be misinformed.

You are misinformed. They did not fail a hematocrit test.

My main point was that i am starting to get fed up with people always saying lance has to be doped to perform the way he is, yet has never failed a doping test of any kind (whether that means testing positive for a baned substance, or testing over the legal limit for hematocrit, or whatever).

And neither did the riders I mentioned. There are hundreds more too. You can't imagine how fed up I get with folks who don't understand our sports history and 100 year tradition of trauma doping.

If it were not for overzealous customs agents, airport police, municipal police, corrupt horse breeders, and a heroic housekeeper, we would not have any doping scandals whatsoever.

Never tested positive.
The statement is virtually meaningless.

Here is all that i am saying, if lance hasn't recorded a positive hit in anything (let's not count aquaintences, because i've had friends that sold drugs, but I never used them, so does that mean i'm guilty because i talked to him?) I am not saying Armstrong is innocent, but people are crying about tyler and saying he isn't guilty until all this stuff is settled. I see him guilty until proven innocent.

That is a very reasonable view to take given the hundreds of examples over just the past 15 years, the exact timeline that Lance has competed.

Our sport is a joke insofar as doping is concerned.

Tous dope, The French even paint it on the mountain passes. They are all DOPED!

Armstrong on the othert hand is innocent in my book till he has a positive on some test. We can agree to disagree, that's fine with me. Cycling has dopers, but so does every other major sport, and ours is at least doing something to try and fix it.

Fine. So too are Barry Bonds, Marion Jones, Bill Romanowski, Lawrence Taylor & David Millar. They are clean be cause they never tested positive either.

In fact, all NIKE athletes are "clean".

Insofar as doing something about it; covering it up and lying are underway as I write this.

If you have any interest in reading about blood doping and how Lance's doctor learned so much about it, go to:

www.ergogenics.org/donati.html

That dossier will take you from 1980 to 1996.

For Lance's 1990 Junior teammates who claim to have received 2-4 daily injections by there trainer and coaches. go to:

www.cbsnews.com/stories/2001/04/10/60II

Rene Wenzel & Chris Carmichael were the coaches.
All were age 17, except lance who was age 18.

Yet another doping coincidence?

For Lance's 1990 Junior teammates who claim to have received 2-4 daily injections by there trainer and coaches. go to:

www.cbsnews.com/stories/2001/04/10/60II/
printable284958.shtml

Enjoy the read.

Teammates were: Gerrik Latta, David Frances, Greg Strock, Erich Kaiter---all age 17 and Lance, age 18.

Interesting article Flyer. Do you know the results of the lawsuit between Strock and Carmichael, Wenzel, et al?

Flyer said:

For Lance's 1990 Junior teammates who claim to have received 2-4 daily injections by there trainer and coaches. go to:

www.cbsnews.com/stories/2001/04/10/60II/
printable284958.shtml

Enjoy the read.

Teammates were: Gerrik Latta, David Frances, Greg Strock, Erich Kaiter---all age 17 and Lance, age 18.

Carmichael settled out of court - curious, wouldn't you say, if he was innocent?

Any links or documentation about the out-of-court settlement?

micron said:

Carmichael settled out of court - curious, wouldn't you say, if he was innocent?

birdman23 said:

Any links or documentation about the out-of-court settlement?

You're kidding right? Read on.

Of course there are no links or public record of any Carmichael/Armstrong "out-of-court" settlement. That's the whole point of staying away from an open court. Privacy and confidentiality.

It is a rumor that Carmichael settled. However, combined with some deductive reasoning, Carmichael is conspicuously absent from this current litigation.

Given that there were only two (2) Junior Coaches looking after these five 17 to 18 year old boys.

Why bring only Wenzel & USCF (now USA Cycling) to federal court?

Where are Carmichael and Armstrong? Why are they excluded or "released". Did they reach a financial settlement in 2000?

Read carefully Greg Strock's interview in VeloNews. He implicates Carmichael without mentioning his name. Bear in mind there were only two coaches in his Spokane Hotel room on August 22, 1990. Greg denies that Wenzel made that daily injection, it was the other coach. Artfully done, and in compliance with any confidentiality agreement, I believe.

goto: www.velonews.com/news/fea/79.2.html

The deeper you dig, the more the Cancer Theme begins to unravel.

Neither Strock or Kaiter have recovered from there illnesses. Why can't there stories be told?

Just because NIKE won't sponsor them?

Greg was a 3-Time Junior National Champ, something Armstrong never achieved.

No I am not kidding. Of course there won't be public record of the terms of the settlement but, if I understand correctly, when a suit is brought to court it becomes a matter of public record. If that suit were to be settled out of court it would also go on record as such sans the details of the settlement.
But I could be wrong about this. Any attorneys out there that could clarify?

Flyer said:

You're kidding right? Read on.

Of course there are no links or public record of any Carmichael/Armstrong "out-of-court" settlement. That's the whole point of staying away from an open court. Privacy and confidentiality.

It is a rumor that Carmichael settled. However, combined with some deductive reasoning, Carmichael is conspicuously absent from this current litigation.

Given that there were only two (2) Junior Coaches looking after these five 17 to 18 year old boys.

Why bring only Wenzel & USCF (now USA Cycling) to federal court?

Where are Carmichael and Armstrong? Why are they excluded or "released". Did they reach a financial settlement in 2000?

Read carefully Greg Strock's interview in VeloNews. He implicates Carmichael without mentioning his name. Bear in mind there were only two coaches in his Spokane Hotel room on August 22, 1990. Greg denies that Wenzel made that daily injection, it was the other coach. Artfully done, and in compliance with any confidentiality agreement, I believe.

goto: www.velonews.com/news/fea/79.2.html

The deeper you dig, the more the Cancer Theme begins to unravel.

Neither Strock or Kaiter have recovered from there illnesses. Why can't there stories be told?

Just because NIKE won't sponsor them?

Greg was a 3-Time Junior National Champ, something Armstrong never achieved.

birdman23 said:

No I am not kidding. Of course there won't be public record of the terms of the settlement but, if I understand correctly, when a suit is brought to court it becomes a matter of public record. If that suit were to be settled out of court it would also go on record as such sans the details of the settlement.
But I could be wrong about this. Any attorneys out there that could clarify?

Oh God, lets pray that Beastt has finally tuned out.

Pleeeease don't get him fired up re: private settlement agreements and privacy rights.

That is as frightening a prospect as the EPO overdose that nearly murdered the entire 1991 PDM squad. Oh---but that was a "food poisoning cover story".

My understanding is that private civil agreements are not recorded with any court. Only if someone files a complaint.

Privacy rights rule, and always motivates a guilty party to settle up before embarrassing details go public.

Makes sense. I just figured any time a suit is filed that suit gets put on public record or at least the filing is recorded. Then the filing would have to be closed either after a trial or an out of court settlement.

Flyer said:

Oh God, lets pray that Beastt has finally tuned out.

Pleeeease don't get him fired up re: private settlement agreements and privacy rights.

That is as frightening a prospect as the EPO overdose that nearly murdered the entire 1991 PDM squad. Oh---but that was a "food poisoning cover story".

My understanding is that private civil agreements are not recorded with any court. Only if someone files a complaint.

Privacy rights rule, and always motivates a guilty party to settle up before embarrassing details go public.

My point of making this new post was simply this:

Has anything really changed? Just awareness?

In late 2004 a 16 year old South African Junior was doped by an adult with EPO. We just learned of it.

The kid will not be suspended as his Cycling Federation believed his "lack of informed consent explanation". Sounds reasonable to me too.

Maybe they could suspend the doctor?

But way back in 1990, this exact same story occurred with Lance Armstrong and his four Junior teammates.

Four of these five athletes all agree that daily injections (2-4) per day of corticosteroids, and other unknown substances--plus pills pressed into energy bars, occurred. The kids were scolded if they questioned why? Peer pressure and guilt trips.

Only Lance remains silent. Kaiter, Strock, Francis, & Latta all corroborate each others stories of the daily injections by Carmichael & Wenzel and trainer Angus Fraser.

Three of the kids eventually became gravely ill.

Armstrong, Kaiter & Strock. Only Armstrong recovered and became famous.

Is that a coincidence? And if so, how can Lance explain that only 4 of 5 were doping---and he, the oldest rider, was clean? Very odd.

My point is, that now, just as 15 years ago, the doping of minors continues by adults.

Parents cannot and do not factor into the mix.

Not at all.

Such is the institution of doping.