Entering the queue at a stop sign

Good question...

fwiw, for me it depends on how long the line. If the line is only a few cars, I take my place at the
back and wait my turn. This is safest because I take the lane. I'm not beside anyone who could
potentially turn right (I'm in the US)

If the line gets longer, I ride to the front and stop. The latter move is risky because of the
possibility of a right turner. I watch for turn signals, the angle of the front wheels, and body
language of the driver of the vehicle to my left.

larry
--
To reply by e-mail, be polite. Rudeness will get you nowhere.

Roly Poly Man said:

As a novice biker, I am curious what you are supposed to do when there is a stop sign with about 5
to 10 vehicles lined up to get their turn.

Most of the time I have seen cyclists fly by all the traffic right up to the stop sign. Isn't this
kind of dangerous? I know it's not proper to pass traffic on the right, and I have often seen a
car suddenly pull out (which would be into a cyclist) using a lane, gravel shoulder, etc to make
an impromptu right turn.

I try to avoid roads like that. However, when in that situation, I don't wait in the queue; I
carefully ride the right shoulder -- I don't fly.

Quoted message said:

On the other hand, I can't see a cyclist entering the queue with vehicles. At least I don't think
I've ever seen this done.

This is appropriate sometimes; make a judgement call.

Quoted message said:

Also, what is the proper way to make a left turn at a typical busy 4-lane or 6-lane boulevard? Do
you keep to the right and make two crossings?

Again, I try to avoid such roads; but on smaller roads, with a straight lane and a left-turn-only
(or even a right-turn-only) lane, I'll go ahead and enter the queue between cars, and wait at the
traffic light/stop sign just as if I were driving. I do make every attempt not to hold up traffic
with my slow speed, and I accomplish proper speeds for these situations pretty well.

Drivers don't seem to be [censored] about it.

My question: Going straight when there's a right-turn-only lane. This is a situation where I feel
both danger and my slowing powered-vehicle drivers. Consider: -that I may have to violate the
right-turn-only lane, which is dangerous in two ways. One, traffic expects me to turn right. Two,
oncoming traffic visibility is often blocked by a vehicle turning left. -if I don't do that, I have
to cross that right-turn-only lane, into the straight/left-turn lane. This means merging into
potentially much faster vehicular traffic, and then forcing them to wait behind.

Then there's the issue of my terrible clipless pedals that I can never seem to get into. Now I'm
holding up traffic AND embarassing myself. Gotta get something better than Wellgo R4; maybe
something in an SPD, or for ultra- cool looks, egg beaters or m2Racer Orbs...

--
Rick Onanian

In article <[email hidden]>, [email hidden] says...

Quoted message said:

As a novice biker, I am curious what you are supposed to do when there is a stop sign with about 5
to 10 vehicles lined up to get their turn.

Most of the time I have seen cyclists fly by all the traffic right up to the stop sign. Isn't this
kind of dangerous? I know it's not proper to pass traffic on the right, and I have often seen a
car suddenly pull out (which would be into a cyclist) using a lane, gravel shoulder, etc to make
an impromptu right turn.

On the other hand, I can't see a cyclist entering the queue with vehicles. At least I don't think
I've ever seen this done.

You've never seen me, then; that's how I do it. I was almost right- hooked (which is the Cyclist's
term for what you described above) a couple of months ago, and since then, I always take the lane at
stop light or stop sign. I can accelerate as fast as the car in front of me and stay fast enough
through the intersection that I don't delay the car behind me and get him [censored] at me.

Quoted message said:

Also, what is the proper way to make a left turn at a typical busy 4-lane or 6-lane boulevard? Do
you keep to the right and make two crossings?

Traffic and speeds permitting, I move over into the left lane just as a car would. If the traffic is
too heavy or going too fast for that to feel safe, then I pretend I'm a pedestrian and make two
crossings in the cross-walks, making sure to go at pedestrian speed so as not to throw off a car
which might be turning across the cross-walks. It only takes an extra minute or so usually, so
doesn't cost me much.

YMMV!

--
Dave Kerber Fight spam: remove the ns_ from the return address before replying!

REAL programmers write self-modifying code.

"Roly Poly Man" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

On the other hand, I can't see a cyclist entering the queue with vehicles. At least I don't think
I've ever seen this done.

I always get into the queue at a stop sign. It's first come, first served. If there is a
right-turn-only lane, it's especially important to get into the correct lane so that traffic is
sorted properly based on destination. I want right-turning drivers to pass to my right if I am not
going that way. Destination positioning is more important than anything else at intersections.

Quoted message said:

Also, what is the proper way to make a left turn at a typical busy 4-lane or 6-lane boulevard? Do
you keep to the right and make two crossings?

If I can find a good traffic gap, I merge all the way to the left (near the center of the road) in
preparation to get into the left turn lane. If I don't feel comfortable doing this, I go straight
and get off the bike to cross the street as a pedestrian, or at least to dismount to replace the
bike in the correct lane to proceed from the cross street.

Steve Goodridge humantransport.orgbicycledrivingOpen ↗

Larry Schuldt <[email hidden]> wrote in :"]news:[email hidden]:

Quoted message said:

If the line gets longer, I ride to the front and stop.

When I do this, I don't stop in front of the first car. I'll stop between the 1st and 2nd car or to
the side of the first car. The driver in the 1st car might be staring at the green light and not see
you; or might get [censored] that you are blocking his path. The 2nd car is already blocked, so won't
mind as much.

In article <[email hidden]>, Roly Poly Man

Quoted message said:

As a novice biker, I am curious what you are supposed to do when there is a stop sign with about 5
to 10 vehicles lined up to get their turn.

Most of the time I have seen cyclists fly by all the traffic right up to the stop sign. Isn't this
kind of dangerous? I know it's not proper to pass traffic on the right, and I have often seen a car
suddenly pull out (which would be into a cyclist) using a lane, gravel shoulder, etc to make an
impromptu right turn.

On the other hand, I can't see a cyclist entering the queue with vehicles. At least I don't think
I've ever seen this done.

If the road ahead is narrow, I'll wait my turn in line. I don't want to pass a bunch of cars at a
stop and then hold them up.

Otherwise I'll ride up the shoulder to the stop sign, and go through after stopping (or nearly
stopping without unclipping). I go through with a car from my road. That way I have "cover" from the
left and I don't take my own cycle at the stop and slow the other drivers.

Quoted message said:

Also, what is the proper way to make a left turn at a typical busy 4-lane or 6-lane boulevard? Do
you keep to the right and make two crossings?

Only in dire emergency.

Use the left turn lane.

Eric

Quoted message said:

As a novice biker, I am curious what you are supposed to do when there is a stop sign with about 5
to 10 vehicles lined up to get their turn.

It depends on the conditions. Filtering is legal on either side where I ride (DC) but that doesn't
mean it's smart. Ninety percent of the time I'll queue with the other vehicles.

Since I mostly ride in the city center at rush hour (commuting) there is little or no speed
differential involved. There is a significant acceleration differential, though. I'll get cars that
swerve around me only to come to a complete stop half a block later. Pointless waste of energy.

Quoted message said:

Most of the time I have seen cyclists fly by all the traffic right up to the stop sign. Isn't this
kind of dangerous?

Yep.

Quoted message said:

I know it's not proper to pass traffic on the right, and I have often seen a car suddenly pull out
(which would be into a cyclist) using a lane, gravel shoulder, etc to make an impromptu right turn.

Yep.

Quoted message said:

On the other hand, I can't see a cyclist entering the queue with vehicles. At least I don't think
I've ever seen this done.

It's regularly done by me, but I'm an obnoxious VC Nazi. :-)

Quoted message said:

Also, what is the proper way to make a left turn at a typical busy 4-lane or 6-lane boulevard? Do
you keep to the right and make two crossings?

Merge left one lane at a time and keep checking six. Well ahead of the intersection. Set up the turn
as you would in a car. Better yet, plan ahead and be in the correct lane from the beginning. Use a
lot of hand signals.

Practice on a deserted road like a city center arterial, on a Sunday or at night. Preferably the
same route you intend to ride in prime time. It really helps to know the hazards before you
encounter them in full on traffic.

The goal is to minimize the surprise factor.

ANY road situation can be mastered by good intelligence, strategy and tactics. And anyone can learn
this approach.

--

_______________________ALL AMIGA IN MY MIND_______________________ ------------------"Buddy Holly,
the Texas Elvis"------------------
__________306.350.357.38>>[email hidden]__________

Roly Poly Man said:

As a novice biker, I am curious what you are supposed to do when there is a stop sign with about 5
to 10 vehicles lined up to get their turn.

What is wrong with joining the line?

Quoted message said:

Most of the time I have seen cyclists fly by all the traffic right up to the stop sign. Isn't this
kind of dangerous?

Yes -- if there is no clear provision for cyclists.

Quoted message said:

On the other hand, I can't see a cyclist entering the queue with vehicles. At least I don't think
I've ever seen this done.

Why not? If you wanted to be treated like part of the traffic rather than something blocking
traffic, treat yourself like part of the traffic.

Quoted message said:

Also, what is the proper way to make a left turn at a typical busy 4-lane or 6-lane boulevard? Do
you keep to the right and make two crossings?

That's what left-turn lanes are for.

--

David L. Johnson

__o | We have a record of conquest, colonization and expansion _`\(,_ | unequalled by any people
in the Nineteenth Century. We are not (_)/ (_) | to be curbed now. --Henry Cabot Lodge, 1895

Rick Onanian said:

My question: Going straight when there's a right-turn-only lane. This is a situation where I feel
both danger and my slowing powered-vehicle drivers. Consider: -that I may have to violate the
right-turn-only lane, which is dangerous in two ways. One, traffic expects me to turn right. Two,
oncoming traffic visibility is often blocked by a vehicle turning left. -if I don't do that, I
have to cross that right-turn-only lane, into the straight/left-turn lane. This means merging into
potentially much faster vehicular traffic, and then forcing them to wait behind.

You need to ride in the right-most lane that is consistent with your direction of travel. If you
slow someone down a bit, that is far better than getting hit by someone turning right because you
were going straight in a right-turn lane.

Use the lanes like a vehicle -- you are riding one.

Quoted message said:

Then there's the issue of my terrible clipless pedals that I can never seem to get into. Now I'm
holding up traffic AND embarassing myself. Gotta get something better than Wellgo R4; maybe
something in an SPD, or for ultra- cool looks, egg beaters or m2Racer Orbs...

Side issue. I did this with double toe straps and cleats, on a fixed gear. Don't let clipping in get
in the way of negotiating traffic.

--

David L. Johnson

__o | "What am I on? I'm on my bike, six hours a day, busting my ass. _`\(,_ | What are you on?"
--Lance Armstrong (_)/ (_) |

"Roly Poly Man" wrote

Quoted message said:

As a novice biker, I am curious what you are supposed to do when there is a stop sign with about 5
to 10 vehicles lined up to get their turn.

Most of the time I have seen cyclists fly by all the traffic right up to the stop sign. Isn't this
kind of dangerous? I know it's not proper to pass traffic on the right, and I have often seen a
car suddenly pull out (which would be into a cyclist) using a lane, gravel shoulder, etc to make
an impromptu right turn.

On the other hand, I can't see a cyclist entering the queue with vehicles. At least I don't think
I've ever seen this done.

Also, what is the proper way to make a left turn at a typical busy 4-lane or 6-lane boulevard? Do
you keep to the right and make two crossings?

With 5 to 10 vehicles lined up, I will frequently come up the left side , on the center line
(eliminates the right hook scenario) and switch to the right side as I'm coming up on the last two
or three vehicles waiting for the stop sign. I do this by using the gap created as the first vehicle
leaves the stop sign and the second one hasn't started to move yet. I then clear the stop sign in
conjunction with the vehicle along side of me, using him to block traffic from the left and provide
visibility to traffic from the right. If the vehicle at the stop sign shows any sign of intending to
make a right turn, I wait and go with the next vehicle, or (traffic permitting), go through the stop
sign on the right turning vehicle's left side. Driver's in my area don't seem to mind, possibly in
part because I move quickly and I am very careful not to hold anyone up.

Left turns: keeping to the right and making two crossings could be a safe bet in really heavy, fast
traffic. If my speed and traffic speed permits, I move into the left turn lane like a car. Signal
your intentions, plan your move a long way ahead, and be ready to bail out and do the "stay right
and make two crossings" scenario if you have to. Another option if the cross street is a quite one
is to make a right turn, a quick U-turn (check for traffic behind you first), and proceed straight
through the intersection. HTH,
--
mark

Rick Onanian said:

My question: Going straight when there's a right-turn-only lane. This is a situation where I feel
both danger and my slowing powered-vehicle drivers. Consider: -that I may have to violate the
right-turn-only lane, which is dangerous in two ways. One, traffic expects me to turn right. Two,
oncoming traffic visibility is often blocked by a vehicle turning left. -if I don't do that, I have
to cross that right-turn-only lane, into the straight/left-turn lane. This means merging into
potentially much faster vehicular traffic, and then forcing them to wait behind.

On city streets, I move into the rightmost through lane. I don't go out of my way to be an
obstruction, but I have the right to use the road safely, and slowing down a few drivers by a few
seconds doesn't bother me much.

On a highway with a rideable hard shoulder, I look back to make sure no one's going to turn into me
(if there's any question, I slow and let them pass), then go straight through on the very left edge
of the turn lane (prepared to stop if anyone entering the road from the right gets confused). This
seems to be, on balance, the best way to do it when motor traffic speeds are that high, though I
can see that there is a good argument for merging into the right through lane even in that
situation. What I would never do is remain on the shoulder (or bike lane) to the right of a
right-turn-only lane.

--
"Tradition means giving votes to the most obscure of all classes--our ancestors. It is the democracy
of the dead. Tradition refuses to submit to the small and arrogant oligarchy of those who merely
happen to be walking around."
-- G.K. Chesterton

(Roly Poly Man) said:

As a novice biker, I am curious what you are supposed to do when there is a stop sign with about 5
to 10 vehicles lined up to get their turn.

Your bicycle is also a vehicle.

Quoted message said:

Most of the time I have seen cyclists fly by all the traffic right up to the stop sign. Isn't this
kind of dangerous? I know it's not proper to pass traffic on the right, and I have often seen a car
suddenly pull out (which would be into a cyclist) using a lane, gravel shoulder, etc to make an
impromptu right turn.

On the other hand, I can't see a cyclist entering the queue with vehicles. At least I don't think
I've ever seen this done.

I try to get in the queue. If traffic is too heavy to permit this (I find this is usually the case
at a red light, rather than a stop sign), I stay to the right, but stop just behind the last car
ahead of me at the stop. Then I make sure I stay ahead of the first car behind
me.

I only pass on the right if there is a full lane's width (that is, room for another car) between
each car and the curb, and no one is signalling a right turn or nosing toward the curb. This pretty
much never happens to me at a stop sign, but it sometimes does at a red light.

The reason you've never seen a cyclist merge into motor traffic is that most cyclists seem to think
they should stay as close as possible to the curb at all times.

--
"Tradition means giving votes to the most obscure of all classes--our ancestors. It is the democracy
of the dead. Tradition refuses to submit to the small and arrogant oligarchy of those who merely
happen to be walking around."
-- G.K. Chesterton

"Roly Poly Man" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

As a novice biker, I am curious what you are supposed to do when there is a stop sign with about 5
to 10 vehicles lined up to get their turn.

Most of the time I have seen cyclists fly by all the traffic right up to the stop sign. Isn't this
kind of dangerous? I know it's not proper to pass traffic on the right, and I have often seen a
car suddenly pull out (which would be into a cyclist) using a lane, gravel shoulder, etc to make
an impromptu right turn.

On the other hand, I can't see a cyclist entering the queue with vehicles. At least I don't think
I've ever seen this done.

Also, what is the proper way to make a left turn at a typical busy 4-lane or 6-lane boulevard? Do
you keep to the right and make two crossings?

Getting in line is exactly what I do. I think it garners the most respect, legitimizes you as a road
user, and minimizes contact with motorists (that guy who passed you, that you just passed, won't
have to pass you again).

--
Robin Hubert <[email hidden]

David L. Johnson said:

gear. Don't let clipping in get in the way of negotiating traffic.

I haven't a choice; these pedals are terrible, and the shoes slip right off them if I'm not clipped
in or if I'm on the wrong side of the pedal. The pedals are terrible. Period.

--
Rick Onanian

mark said:

With 5 to 10 vehicles lined up, I will frequently come up the left side , the center line
(eliminates the right hook scenario) and switch to the side as I'm coming up on the last two or
three vehicles waiting for the sign. I do this by using the gap created as the first vehicle
leaves the stop sign and the second one hasn't started to move yet. I then clear the

This sounds dangerous -- if the driver fails to look ahead, and moves forward based on seeing (out
of the corner of his eye) the car in front of him drive away, you're smooshed. And yes, many drivers
will go based on the insufficient data collected while they're paying attention to something else.

Quoted message said:

HTH,
--
mark

--
Rick Onanian

Roly Poly Man said:

On the other hand, I can't see a cyclist entering the queue with vehicles. At least I don't think
I've ever seen this done.

I know this is going to sound weird, but this is based on three years of constant commuting, so I've
just learned from experience.

In the city I get in the queue and ride with traffic. Motorists are used to seeing bikes and respect
us as traffic more. In the suburbs I pass on the right with caution. Reason being that in the
suburbs for some reason motorists are less used to having cyclists around and thus far less
tolerant. If you pass them on the right you at least have a chance of getting to a wider road after
the stop. If you wait in the queue you're sure to have some angry maniac freaking out because they
have to wait behind a bike. They'll pass you on the left either way. They'll pass you on the left
even if there is a semi on-coming in the other lane of traffic and there's a sheer cliff to your
right. They don't care about you. So I figure, if it's okay to ALWAYS pass me on the left,
regardless of circumstances, there's no harm in making the judicious choice to pass on the right
once in a while.

As far as turning goes, it's best to learn to integrate with traffic as best as possible. Signal,
wait for a safe opening and turn left like everyone else. It helps to have a rear-view mirror. You
shouldn't rely on it, but it helps because you have an idea of if you need to slow down, etc. to get
ready for your chance to turn.

Preston

Quoted message said:

My question: Going straight when there's a right-turn-only lane. This is a situation where I feel
both danger and my slowing powered-vehicle drivers. Consider: -that I may have to violate the
right-turn-only lane, which is dangerous in two ways. One, traffic expects me to turn right. Two,
oncoming traffic visibility is often blocked by a vehicle turning left. -if I don't do that, I
have to cross that right-turn-only lane, into the straight/left-turn lane. This means merging into
potentially much faster vehicular traffic, and then forcing them to wait behind.

Signal your intent to merge left, shoulder check, and then merge. Try to do this enough ahead of
time that there will be a gap that you can enter. If the lanes are of sufficient width, you should
be able to ride at the right hand side of the straight lane allowing faster traffic to pass within
the lane. You could also (although not technically correct) ride along the left-hand side of the
right turn lane. That way it is obvious that you are not turning right, you will not have conflict
with the cars in the straight lane, and cars turning right should have sufficient room to do so
without interfering with you.

Tanya

[email hidden] (Roly Poly Man) wrote in message
news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

As a novice biker, I am curious what you are supposed to do when there is a stop sign with about 5
to 10 vehicles lined up to get their turn.

Most of the time I have seen cyclists fly by all the traffic right up to the stop sign. Isn't this
kind of dangerous? I know it's not proper to pass traffic on the right, and I have often seen a
car suddenly pull out (which would be into a cyclist) using a lane, gravel shoulder, etc to make
an impromptu right turn.

On the other hand, I can't see a cyclist entering the queue with vehicles. At least I don't think
I've ever seen this done.

There are three things that you can do:
1. Enter the queue with the vehicles. This is most correct according to vehicle code. You are a
vehicle. I would do this if its not going to be a long wait. However, IMO one of the advantages
of riding a bike as opposed to driving a car is not having to put up with the congestion that
having a large oversized inflexible vehicle creates. I want to get to where I am going quickly.
If I wanted to sit idling at slower than walking speed in a congested area I would have taken a
car not a bicycle. Which brings us to:
2. Passing on the left. (especially useful if you want to turn left at the stop sign) The correct
way to pass other stopped or slower moving vehicles. Sometimes made impractical by the haphazard
way that cars stop in a lane at an intersection.
3. Passing on the right. This is potentially dangerous, but its a judgment call. Is there any
place for a car to suddenly pull out of the lane? If not its easier to do this. Be aware though
that a passenger may decide to get out at a stop sign as well opening their door into you.
Practically speaking, cyclists pass on the right in stopped traffic often. Then when you get to
the front of the line, observe whether the car at the front appears to be turning right or
going straight. If turning right let it go by.. You can also (although also not technically
correct) stop a little bit ahead of the white line, so that when you both go you go straight
ahead of the car turning right.

Some cyclist pass on the left and then move to the right as they approach the intersection but a
"weaving" pattern can make you look unpredictable - something you want to avoid.

Quoted message said:

Also, what is the proper way to make a left turn at a typical busy 4-lane or 6-lane boulevard? Do
you keep to the right and make two crossings?

Same as you would in a car. Shoulder check. Signal left. Merge lanes one at a time. Make sure to do
this well in advance of the intersection. If there is a left turn lane you want to be on the right
side of the lane. If there is no left turn lane you want to be on the left side of the
straight/left turn lane, however ideally not to the left of anyone turning left. Usually I will
stay in the center of the lane at the red light (in the queue) and when the light turns green move
further left into the intersection to wait for oncoming traffic to allow vehicles going straight
through in my lane to pass.

At busier intersections or ones where I just run out of time to merge (and sometimes ones with a
gaggle of streetcar tracks to cross, I hate that) I ride to the other side of the intersection,
stop, dismount and then walk the bike to the other side as a pedestrian.

If there is a long line I go to the front. I also smile and wave at the driver of the first car. If
only 2 or 3 cars, I act like a car and get in line too.

If there is no cars in line and cars coming from the back, I take the lane. If there is a turning
lane, I get on the wide white line so I don't hold up cars wanting to make right turns on red.

One of the best tips ever givin to me was to ride in the grove made by the passenger side (right)
wheels. This makes passing cars change lanes. Otherwise, they might run you off the road.

Good luck and ride safe.