Energy Gel - Maltodextrin vs. Brown Rice Syrup

Quoted message said:

Regarding energy gel packets such as Clif and others. Are their any
health and energy delivery benefits of brown rice syrup in Clif vs.
maltodextrin or real honey in others?
Please share your experiences and opinions. Thanks

In my opinion I have no experience in either muck. Energy gel is
pablum for adults with weak teeth and sore gums. Eat something
crunchy - you're teeth will thank you.

R

Quoted message said:

Regarding energy gel packets such as Clif and others. Are their any
health and energy delivery benefits of brown rice syrup in Clif vs.
maltodextrin or real honey in others?
Please share your experiences and opinions. Thanks

I don't know what the sugars are in brown rice syrup or honey.
Maltodextrin is established as easily digestible by most people. It
works for me. You'll have to test it for yourself. I think I
remember that all carbs are basically 4 Cal/gram, so on that primitive
basis they are all equal.

Digestibility is a different matter. A lot of people have stomach
upset with when there is too high a concentration of fructose. Good
drinks for me always had less than 2% for a 7% solution, but they did
have some fructose. One doc -- M Colgan, IIRC -- wrote that fructose
preferentially restored liver glycogen, and that is why it was
included. I don't know about that for racers, as you ought to be
burning more than you can restore anyway. (Post-race/train recovery
is another matter.)

For 7% solutions, I suppose basic glucose is good, although gatorade
which is sucrose seems fine. For concentrated drinks, bars, or gels,
I would look for maltodextrin as the primary energy content.

Make sure your frame is not a compact. You want a frame pump and
large 30oz Zefal bottles.

SLAVE of THE STATE said:

Quoted message said:

Regarding energy gel packets such as Clif and others. Are their any
health and energy delivery benefits of brown rice syrup in Clif vs.
maltodextrin or real honey in others?
Please share your experiences and opinions. Thanks

I don't know what the sugars are in brown rice syrup or honey.
Maltodextrin is established as easily digestible by most people. It
works for me. You'll have to test it for yourself. I think I
remember that all carbs are basically 4 Cal/gram, so on that primitive
basis they are all equal.

Digestibility is a different matter. A lot of people have stomach
upset with when there is too high a concentration of fructose. Good
drinks for me always had less than 2% for a 7% solution, but they did
have some fructose. One doc -- M Colgan, IIRC -- wrote that fructose
preferentially restored liver glycogen, and that is why it was
included. I don't know about that for racers, as you ought to be
burning more than you can restore anyway. (Post-race/train recovery
is another matter.)

For 7% solutions, I suppose basic glucose is good, although gatorade
which is sucrose seems fine. For concentrated drinks, bars, or gels,
I would look for maltodextrin as the primary energy content.

Make sure your frame is not a compact. You want a frame pump and
large 30oz Zefal bottles.

Brown rice syrup is composed of about 50% complex carbohydrates that
don't digest especially rapidly but 45% of what's left is maltose
which is two glucose molecules strung together and then the remainder
is glucose. This is NOT a particularly good energy supply on the bike
because it causes a jump and subsequent drop in your blood sugar from
insulin.

Real(tm) honey is a third fructose and another third glucose. Another
10% is various other sugars none of which you want in your system if
you're making a sustained physical effort.

Maltodextrin is a polysaccharide that doesn't cause that insulin
problem.

Quoted message said:

Regarding energy gel packets such as Clif and others. Are their any
health and energy delivery benefits of brown rice syrup in Clif vs.
maltodextrin or real honey in others?
Please share your experiences and opinions. Thanks

Dude,

Why not save yourself the anguish of trying to figure out all that
nonsense and just cleave the oxygen atom on the hydroxide molecule in
the CLIF bar and run the whole thing through the accelerator at your
local universities physics department.

After doing that, drop the entire batch into a stainless tub with
liquid nitrogen to max out the carbohydrate density.

The night before a race, thaw it out. This will give you an extra 2.3
watts (sustained) during the Thursday night crit. You should be able to
see this on your SRM graphs.

That's what most people I know do.

Once you upgrade to Cat. 3, you'll need to move closer to an operational
nuclear reactor in order to get your hands on some uranium to split
atoms in order to harness energy from those CLIF bars more efficiently.

Magilla

Quoted message said:

SLAVE of THE STATE said:

On Dec 12, 9:41 am, [email hidden] wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Regarding energy gel packets such as Clif and others. Are their any
health and energy delivery benefits of brown rice syrup in Clif vs.
maltodextrin or real honey in others?
Please share your experiences and opinions. Thanks

Quoted message said:

I don't know what the sugars are in brown rice syrup or honey.
Maltodextrin is established as easily digestible by most people. It
works for me. You'll have to test it for yourself. I think I
remember that all carbs are basically 4 Cal/gram, so on that primitive
basis they are all equal.

Quoted message said:

Digestibility is a different matter. A lot of people have stomach
upset with when there is too high a concentration of fructose. Good
drinks for me always had less than 2% for a 7% solution, but they did
have some fructose. One doc -- M Colgan, IIRC -- wrote that fructose
preferentially restored liver glycogen, and that is why it was
included. I don't know about that for racers, as you ought to be
burning more than you can restore anyway. (Post-race/train recovery
is another matter.)

Quoted message said:

For 7% solutions, I suppose basic glucose is good, although gatorade
which is sucrose seems fine. For concentrated drinks, bars, or gels,
I would look for maltodextrin as the primary energy content.

Quoted message said:

Make sure your frame is not a compact. You want a frame pump and
large 30oz Zefal bottles.

Brown rice syrup is composed of about 50% complex carbohydrates that
don't digest especially rapidly but 45% of what's left is maltose
which is two glucose molecules strung together and then the remainder
is glucose. This is NOT a particularly good energy supply on the bike
because it causes a jump and subsequent drop in your blood sugar from
insulin.

Real(tm) honey is a third fructose and another third glucose. Another
10% is various other sugars none of which you want in your system if
you're making a sustained physical effort.

What is the other 24%? I can't use honey on a bike.

Quoted message said:

Maltodextrin is a polysaccharide that doesn't cause that insulin
problem.

Okay. In layman's terms (my terms), I call polysaccharides "complex
carbs." They have the advantage of not tasting sweet. UltraFuel, for
example, is mostly maltodextrin with a dash of simple sugars and fruit
flavoring added for taste. Otherwise it would be unbearably sweet.
(Even for me.)

SLAVE of THE STATE said:

Quoted message said:

On Dec 12, 12:06 pm, SLAVE of THE STATE <[email hidden]> wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

On Dec 12, 9:41 am, [email hidden] wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> Regarding energy gel packets such as Clif and others. Are their any
> health and energy delivery benefits of brown rice syrup in Clif vs.
> maltodextrin or real honey in others?
> Please share your experiences and opinions. Thanks

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I don't know what the sugars are in brown rice syrup or honey.
Maltodextrin is established as easily digestible by most people. It
works for me. You'll have to test it for yourself. I think I
remember that all carbs are basically 4 Cal/gram, so on that primitive
basis they are all equal.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Digestibility is a different matter. A lot of people have stomach
upset with when there is too high a concentration of fructose. Good
drinks for me always had less than 2% for a 7% solution, but they did
have some fructose. One doc -- M Colgan, IIRC -- wrote that fructose
preferentially restored liver glycogen, and that is why it was
included. I don't know about that for racers, as you ought to be
burning more than you can restore anyway. (Post-race/train recovery
is another matter.)

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

For 7% solutions, I suppose basic glucose is good, although gatorade
which is sucrose seems fine. For concentrated drinks, bars, or gels,
I would look for maltodextrin as the primary energy content.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Make sure your frame is not a compact. You want a frame pump and
large 30oz Zefal bottles.

Quoted message said:

Brown rice syrup is composed of about 50% complex carbohydrates that
don't digest especially rapidly but 45% of what's left is maltose
which is two glucose molecules strung together and then the remainder
is glucose. This is NOT a particularly good energy supply on the bike
because it causes a jump and subsequent drop in your blood sugar from
insulin.

Quoted message said:

Real(tm) honey is a third fructose and another third glucose. Another
10% is various other sugars none of which you want in your system if
you're making a sustained physical effort.

What is the other 24%? I can't use honey on a bike.

Water

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Maltodextrin is a polysaccharide that doesn't cause that insulin
problem.

Okay. In layman's terms (my terms), I call polysaccharides "complex
carbs." They have the advantage of not tasting sweet. UltraFuel, for
example, is mostly maltodextrin with a dash of simple sugars and fruit
flavoring added for taste. Otherwise it would be unbearably sweet.
(Even for me.)

Maltodextrin is a rapidly absorbed carb. It is absorbed as rapidly as
glucose without the insulin high-low. Hammer Gel for instance works
really well. One of the things about it is that you remain neutral so
it is difficult to understand that the stuff is actually working
unless you have experimented a lot to see how well it does work. Most
of the other gels have some glucose, caffeine, etc in there so that
you feel a shot after ingesting it and think that it is really hot
stuff. Problem is that it often has that run down shortly after the
high due to the insulin overload. Maltodextrin works without feeling
like it's working - you just seem to keep functioning at the same
level without the usual drop in energy.

MagillaGorilla said:

Quoted message said:

Regarding energy gel packets such as Clif and others. Are their any
health and energy delivery benefits of brown rice syrup in Clif vs.
maltodextrin or real honey in others?
Please share your experiences and opinions. Thanks

Dude,

Why not save yourself the anguish of trying to figure out all that
nonsense and just cleave the oxygen atom on the hydroxide molecule in
the CLIF bar and run the whole thing through the accelerator at your
local universities physics department.

After doing that, drop the entire batch into a stainless tub with
liquid nitrogen to max out the carbohydrate density.

The night before a race, thaw it out. This will give you an extra 2.3
watts (sustained) during the Thursday night crit. You should be able to
see this on your SRM graphs.

That's what most people I know do.

Once you upgrade to Cat. 3, you'll need to move closer to an operational
nuclear reactor in order to get your hands on some uranium to split
atoms in order to harness energy from those CLIF bars more efficiently.

Magilla

Thanks!

Quoted message said:

Regarding energy gel packets such as Clif and others. Are their any
health and energy delivery benefits of brown rice syrup in Clif vs.
maltodextrin or real honey in others?
Please share your experiences and opinions. Thanks

Try it and see what you like. In warm weather or in situations where
you'll use a lot of gels, I think less sweet is better as you can get
annoyed by sweet taste.

Gels are racing fuel - only use them in training enough to get used to
them to see what you like. Don't think about health effects of racing
fuel.

<snip>

John Forrest Tomlinson said:

Gels are racing fuel - only use them in training enough to get used to
them to see what you like. Don't think about health effects of racing
fuel.

That's a good one...just like the guys who use testosterone, steroids,
blood (their own or someone else's), amphetemines, etc etc etc.
Just take it, don't think about it.
ABS

Quoted message said:

<snip>

John Forrest Tomlinson said:

Gels are racing fuel - only use them in training enough to get used to
them to see what you like. Don't think about health effects of racing
fuel.

That's a good one...just like the guys who use testosterone, steroids,
blood (their own or someone else's), amphetemines, etc etc etc.
Just take it, don't think about it.
ABS

Obviously you haven't spent much time around here. John is the real
thing - a good racer who is completely on the up and up.

On Dec 12, 7:39 pm, John Forrest Tomlinson <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Regarding energy gel packets such as Clif and others. Are their any
health and energy delivery benefits of brown rice syrup in Clif vs.
maltodextrin or real honey in others?
Please share your experiences and opinions. Thanks

Try it and see what you like. In warm weather or in situations where
you'll use a lot of gels, I think less sweet is better as you can get
annoyed by sweet taste.

Gels are racing fuel - only use them in training enough to get used to
them to see what you like. Don't think about health effects of racing
fuel.

I'm not sure I agree with your 'racing fuel' only declaration. I
generally get my calories during rides from drink mixes and an energy
bar now and then. But, I find that when doing base miles during the
winter if I drink enough liquid to get my calorie requirements from
drink mixes I overhydrate and therefore have to stop waaaay to often
to relieve myself. Something about the combination of reduced demands
for fluids coupled w/ the effects of the colder weather, but... who
wants to be looking for convenience stores or construction site
portapotties all the time???

So, I use gels during the winter a lot more than any other time since
I can get more calories w/ less fluids using gels than any other way.

S.

Scott said:

On Dec 12, 7:39 pm, John Forrest Tomlinson <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Regarding energy gel packets such as Clif and others. Are their any
health and energy delivery benefits of brown rice syrup in Clif vs.
maltodextrin or real honey in others?
Please share your experiences and opinions. Thanks

Try it and see what you like. In warm weather or in situations where
you'll use a lot of gels, I think less sweet is better as you can get
annoyed by sweet taste.

Gels are racing fuel - only use them in training enough to get used to
them to see what you like. Don't think about health effects of racing
fuel.

I'm not sure I agree with your 'racing fuel' only declaration. I
generally get my calories during rides from drink mixes and an energy
bar now and then. But, I find that when doing base miles during the
winter if I drink enough liquid to get my calorie requirements from
drink mixes I overhydrate and therefore have to stop waaaay to often
to relieve myself. Something about the combination of reduced demands
for fluids coupled w/ the effects of the colder weather, but... who
wants to be looking for convenience stores or construction site
portapotties all the time???

Eat normal solid food with fiber. more micronutrients, etc. Fruit,
bread, crackers, nuts, sandwiches, etc,

Gels (and some energy bars) have two big advantages over such food --
easier to carry/store and easier to digest. But if you're doing
endurance riding, normal food shouldn't be a problem and can be
healthier if you choose right. And cheaper.

On Dec 13, 9:18 am, John Forrest Tomlinson <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

On Thu, 13 Dec 2007 08:11:30 -0800 (PST), Scott

Quoted message said:

On Dec 12, 7:39 pm, John Forrest Tomlinson <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

On Wed, 12 Dec 2007 09:41:53 -0800 (PST), [email hidden] wrote:
>Regarding energy gel packets such as Clif and others. Are their any
>health and energy delivery benefits of brown rice syrup in Clif vs.
>maltodextrin or real honey in others?
>Please share your experiences and opinions. Thanks

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Try it and see what you like. In warm weather or in situations where
you'll use a lot of gels, I think less sweet is better as you can get
annoyed by sweet taste.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Gels are racing fuel - only use them in training enough to get used to
them to see what you like. Don't think about health effects of racing
fuel.

Quoted message said:

I'm not sure I agree with your 'racing fuel' only declaration. I
generally get my calories during rides from drink mixes and an energy
bar now and then. But, I find that when doing base miles during the
winter if I drink enough liquid to get my calorie requirements from
drink mixes I overhydrate and therefore have to stop waaaay to often
to relieve myself. Something about the combination of reduced demands
for fluids coupled w/ the effects of the colder weather, but... who
wants to be looking for convenience stores or construction site
portapotties all the time???

Eat normal solid food with fiber. more micronutrients, etc. Fruit,
bread, crackers, nuts, sandwiches, etc,

Gels (and some energy bars) have two big advantages over such food --
easier to carry/store and easier to digest. But if you're doing
endurance riding, normal food shouldn't be a problem and can be
healthier if you choose right. And cheaper. - Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Cheaper, yes... but still brings up the problem of requiring more
water to wash it down, and thus more stops. As for the simplicity of
use and ease of carrying them, nothing beats gels. Who wants to lug
peanut butter sandwiches around with them while riding?

Okay, don't answer that, I know there are folks out there w/ huge
packs hanging from their saddles who'll carry anything/everything.

Regardless, even with all the benefits to be derived from other
sources, gels are still an acceptable source of energy for 'other than
racing' situations. Maybe not the best choice, but certainly not such
a poor choice as to declare them fit for 'race use only'.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

<snip>
On Dec 12, 6:39 pm, John Forrest Tomlinson wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Gels are racing fuel - only use them in training enough to get used to
them to see what you like. Don't think about health effects of racing
fuel.

Quoted message said:

That's a good one...just like the guys who use testosterone, steroids,
blood (their own or someone else's), amphetemines, etc etc etc.
Just take it, don't think about it.
ABS

Obviously you haven't spent much time around here. John is the real
thing - a good racer who is completely on the up and up.

My comment wasn't meant as an aspersion on anyone's
character, just a seemingly cavalier statement.
Obviously...um...I was wrong.
ABS

Scott said:

Regardless, even with all the benefits to be derived from other
sources, gels are still an acceptable source of energy for 'other than
racing' situations. Maybe not the best choice, but certainly not such
a poor choice as to declare them fit for 'race use only'.

Right. I'm only commenting on what is wise, not what is possible.

On Dec 13, 11:42 am, John Forrest Tomlinson <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

On Thu, 13 Dec 2007 08:49:52 -0800 (PST), Scott

Quoted message said:

Regardless, even with all the benefits to be derived from other
sources, gels are still an acceptable source of energy for 'other than
racing' situations. Maybe not the best choice, but certainly not such
a poor choice as to declare them fit for 'race use only'.

Right. I'm only commenting on what is wise, not what is possible.

I understand. It has been nice to trade comments with someone that
didn't result in name calling, sort of caught me off guard.

S.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

<snip>

John Forrest Tomlinson said:

Gels are racing fuel - only use them in training enough to get used to
them to see what you like. Don't think about health effects of racing
fuel.

That's a good one...just like the guys who use testosterone, steroids,
blood (their own or someone else's), amphetemines, etc etc etc.
Just take it, don't think about it.
ABS

Obviously you haven't spent much time around here. John is the real
thing - a good racer who is completely on the up and up.

How good can he be, Jackass, if he's never dabbled in the hot sauce?

Magilla

The Glycemic Index is measured in rest and consumed pure.

This being said, the insulin response to carbohydrate intake during
exercise is a lot complexer.
It's not only digestibility and rate of digestion and uptake but also
the rate of stomach clearance. Sure enough if you eat some glucose and
your blood sugar will rise sharp but add some fat to that and it won't
rise as fast simply because fat makes stomach clearance slow down. (by
inducing a higher tonus in the pyloric sphincter if you must know)
An added problem would be that your digestive system doesn't respond
anything like it during exercise then when at rest, mainly because of
reduced bloodflow in the entire gastrointestinal system.

In short, modest glucose intake during exercise doesn't cause a high
insulin peak and blood sugar drop as a result. There's no reason not
to use glucose as an energy source.
Whether the slow digestable carbohydrates offer an advantage in
performance or not is heavily debated. In all likelihood it will
provide you with the exact same energy and results. It is however very
much recommended to keep your simple carb intake prior to a race or
training as low as possible. Prior means at rest and that WILL yield
an insuline peak and blood sugar rebound drop.

Honey is a great low GI product and mixes rather well with things like
a twist of lemon juice. Try and see if you can hold it down on the
road, there's no rule of what can an cannot be tolerated, it basically
depends on your own body. The rule of thumb about the 7% solution is
somewhat arbitrary, I once read an article about how that exact number
came into play.

More information about sugars and exercise here :
http://www.runnersweb.com/running/news/rw_news_20060620_ERB_Carbohydrates.html

MagillaGorilla said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

<snip>
On Dec 12, 6:39 pm, John Forrest Tomlinson wrote:

>Gels are racing fuel - only use them in training enough to get used to
>them to see what you like. Don't think about health effects of racing
>fuel.

That's a good one...just like the guys who use testosterone, steroids,
blood (their own or someone else's), amphetemines, etc etc etc.
Just take it, don't think about it.
ABS

Obviously you haven't spent much time around here. John is the real
thing - a good racer who is completely on the up and up.

How good can he be, Jackass, if he's never dabbled in the hot sauce?

I worse than a has been, worse than a never was...I'm a never coulda..

JT