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Just wondering what people think of colon cleansing products. I have used enemas and colon cleansing
herbs. It generaly makes me feel good after a cleansing, herbs are hit and miss though. I did find a
unique site that combines the two
www.enemakit.com
anyone ever purchase from them or combine herbs with colonic enema cleansing?
Thanks Matt
"Feel" is the first thing to jump out, eat a great handful of hot peppers and you will "feel" twice
as much. How do we discern the merely spam from the sincere request for information? Is there any
research on which to base an informed opinion?
Quoted message said:Just wondering what people think of colon cleansing products. I have used enemas and colon
cleansing herbs. It generaly makes me feel good after a cleansing, herbs are hit and miss though. I
did find a unique site that combines the twowww.enemakit.com
anyone ever purchase from them or combine herbs with colonic enema cleansing?
Thanks Matt
Quoted message said:Just wondering what people think of colon cleansing products.
Eating more fiber rich vegetables and fruits is another way of accomplishing similar.
I guess that is a no? , ya I should of left out the website
[email hidden] wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...
Quoted message said:"Feel" is the first thing to jump out, eat a great handful of hot peppers and you will "feel"
twice as much. How do we discern the merely spam from the sincere request for information? Is
there any research on which to base an informed opinion?Quoted message said:Just wondering what people think of colon cleansing products. I have used enemas and colon
cleansing herbs. It generaly makes me feel good after a cleansing, herbs are hit and miss though.
I did find a unique site that combines the twowww.enemakit.com
anyone ever purchase from them or combine herbs with colonic enema cleansing?
Thanks Matt
"Matt" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...
Quoted message said:Just wondering what people think of colon cleansing products. I have used enemas and colon
cleansing herbs. It generaly makes me feel good after a cleansing, herbs are hit and miss though.
I did find a unique site that combines the twowww.enesytdfuyrtmakit.com
anyone ever purchase from them or combine herbs with colonic enema cleansing?
I would definitely not recommend enemas, unless directed by a real doctor (chiropractors,
naturopaths and other quacks don't count).
The first reason is that they can be dangerous. You can get electrolyte abnormalities (problems with
your body;s salt balance) and even rupture your colon.
The second reason is that they are unnecessary. If you eat enough fiber, give yourself enough time
to [censored] and get excercise, there should be no need to take or do anything to help you [censored].
There are also many false claims about how enemas and cleansing is good for your health. There is no
evidence that this is true. quackwatch.orggastro.htmlOpen ↗
Develop healthy bowel habits by eating right, getting enough excercise, drinking enough water (which
helps keep your stool moist), and taking enough time to move your bowels, you should have no need
for enemas.
Jeff
Quoted message said:Thanks Matt
Jeff <[email hidden]> wrote or quoted:
Quoted message said:There are also many false claims about how enemas and cleansing is good for your health. There is
no evidence that this is true.
If you search for things like "colonic irrigation" on Medline it will be clear that there isn't much
evidence either way - there hasn't been much funding of research into the effectiveness of
irrigating the colon.
A good number of the studies that have been done are on patients with colostomies. The results there
seem to be highly beneficial:
``Colonic irrigation for colostomies. Results of a national survey among 795 colostomized patients''
``Value of colonic irrigation. Long-term followed-up in 432 colostomized patients
There's also a postive study on incontinence:
``Clinical value of colonic irrigation in patients with continence disturbances.
...several papers about hygene problems - e.g.:
``An outbreak of amebiasis spread by colonic irrigation at a chiropractic clinic''
...and several "Bah humbug" papers - e.g.:
``Colonic irrigation and the theory of autointoxication: a triumph of ignorance over science.''
...but not a great deal more.
Maybe one day science will look into colonic irrigation in more detail. However until that is done
the health claims made for it would perhaps be better described as "unproven" than "false".
--
__________
|im |yler timtyler.orgtimtyler.orgOpen ↗ [email hidden] Remove lock to reply.
"Tim Tyler" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...
Quoted message said:Jeff <[email hidden]> wrote or quoted:
Quoted message said:There are also many false claims about how enemas and cleansing is good for your health. There
is no evidence that this is true.If you search for things like "colonic irrigation" on Medline it will be clear that there isn't
much evidence either way - there hasn't been much funding of research into the effectiveness of
irrigating the colon.
True.
Quoted message said:A good number of the studies that have been done are on patients with colostomies. The results
there seem to be highly beneficial:``Colonic irrigation for colostomies. Results of a national survey among 795 colostomized
patients''``Value of colonic irrigation. Long-term followed-up in 432 colostomized patients
There's also a postive study on incontinence:
``Clinical value of colonic irrigation in patients with continence disturbances.
These three papers are about patients with very specific problems under a real doctor's care. Most
people do not have colonostomies. And the problem with fecal soiling is a specific problem, as well.
These studies do not apply to the vast majority of people.
Quoted message said:...several papers about hygene problems - e.g.:
``An outbreak of amebiasis spread by colonic irrigation at a chiropractic clinic''
...and several "Bah humbug" papers - e.g.:
``Colonic irrigation and the theory of autointoxication: a triumph of ignorance over science.''
...but not a great deal more.
The theories about colonic irrigation arose before our modern understanding of how the body works.
It was thought that by doing colonic cleansing, toxins would be removed from the body and liver
function (whatever they thought that was) would be improved. The fact is that the stuff inside the
colon is not really in the body (it is isolated from the body by the colon wall). Toxins do not move
from the colon to inside the body. Rather, they stay isolated in the colon until they are
eliminated.
There is no reason to suspect that colonic irrigation really does anything to help people. The basic
medical sciences do provide any reason to believe that colonic irrigation will help anyone. There
are no studies to support that colonic irrigation helps people avoid illness or that the toxins in
the colon cause illness.
There is evidence to suggest that colonic irrigation can cause electrolyte imbalances, colonic
rupture as well as dependence of enemas to move the bowels.
Bowels have been moving naturally by themselves for millenia. There is no reason to think that
people need colonic irrigation. If people are having troubles moving bowels, the way to solve them
is to solve the problems with diet and excercise (excercise helps improve intestinal mobility).
Jeff
Quoted message said:Maybe one day science will look into colonic irrigation in more detail. However until that is done
the health claims made for it would perhaps be better described as "unproven" than "false".
--
__________
|im |yler timtyler.orgtimtyler.orgOpen ↗ [email hidden] Remove lock to reply.
Jeff <[email hidden]> wrote or quoted:
Quoted message said:"Tim Tyler" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...
Quoted message said:Jeff <[email hidden]> wrote or quoted:
Quoted message said:Quoted message said:Quoted message said:There are also many false claims about how enemas and cleansing is good for your health. There
is no evidence that this is true.If you search for things like "colonic irrigation" on Medline it will be clear that there isn't
much evidence either way - there hasn't been much funding of research into the effectiveness of
irrigating the colon.True.
Quoted message said:A good number of the studies that have been done are on patients with colostomies. The results
there seem to be highly beneficial:``Colonic irrigation for colostomies. Results of a national survey among 795 colostomized
patients''``Value of colonic irrigation. Long-term followed-up in 432 colostomized patients
There's also a postive study on incontinence:
``Clinical value of colonic irrigation in patients with continence disturbances.
These three papers are about patients with very specific problems under a real doctor's care.
Most people do not have colonostomies. And the problem with fecal soiling is a specific problem,
as well.These studies do not apply to the vast majority of people.
Yes I know. However if you discard studies like these there really isn't very much left on which to
base an opinion.
This shows how western medicine works in some respect - treatments are mostly tried on ill patients.
Colonic irrigation is typically billed as preventative medicine - so it would be nice to see the
effects on moderately healthy subjects - but few such studies have been performed.
Quoted message said:The theories about colonic irrigation arose before our modern understanding of how the body works.
It was thought that by doing colonic cleansing, toxins would be removed from the body and liver
function (whatever they thought that was) would be improved. The fact is that the stuff inside the
colon is not really in the body (it is isolated from the body by the colon wall). Toxins do not
move from the colon to inside the body. Rather, they stay isolated in the colon until they are
eliminated.
The problems that commonly afflict the colon in the aged include diverticulitis, cancer, ulcers,
irritable bowel syndrome and inflammation.
Diverticular disease is characterised by stagnant pockets of colon wall being pushed through their
muscular lining, and then becomming breeding grounds for bacteria. It seems like common sense to me
that washing and scrubbing the colon would be theraputic here.
While the causes of colon cancer and ulcerative colitis are not known in detail it seems likely that
they are caused - in part - by mechanical or chemical elements in the colon and rectum attacking the
lining - and being repeatedly forced against its surface under pressure.
Again, it seems likely to me that an internal warm bath is likely to be theraputic here. It offers -
among other things - temporary respite from the insult, a means to relieve pressure by softening and
loosening the material being compressed, and washes away the resident bacteria - allowing them to be
replaced by benign species.
Quoted message said:There is no reason to suspect that colonic irrigation really does anything to help people.
Scientifically speaking there's no reason to think it doesn't either. That's the problem with a lack
of study - ignorance works both ways.
Quoted message said:The basic medical sciences do provide any reason to believe that colonic irrigation will
help anyone.
What serious attempt to investigate the issue has been made by these sciences?
Quoted message said:There are no studies to support that colonic irrigation helps people avoid illness or that the
toxins in the colon cause illness.
That's because the question has not been adequately studied.
Quoted message said:There is evidence to suggest that colonic irrigation can cause electrolyte imbalances, colonic
rupture as well as dependence of enemas to move the bowels.
The danger of perforating the bowel seems pretty minimal to me - if reasonable care is taken.
Electrolyte imbalances can stem from absorbing lots of material from the colon during the
irrigation. Don't stick toxic compounds up there - and don't shove fluid up there continuously for
many hours on end - and you should be OK. The other possible cause is very frequent enemas. Minerals
are absorbed from the large intestine. If this is continuously empty then you may not be absorbing a
balanced spectrum of minerals. The most obvious solution to this is not to have enemas day after day
for weeks at a time without careful monitoring and compensating supplementation with minerals and
intestinal flora.
Dependence on laxatives is much more common than dependence on enemas. Since the former is more
serious (through the influence of questionable chemicals on the entire GI tract), I should think
giving a few more enemas instead would be warmly welcomed.
The common long-term solution to such problems is high fibre diets. It is usually a very
effective solution.
Infection has been another concern historically - but sterilising the equipment used is an effective
solution. Using a disposable speculum also works rather well.
Im impression of the safety concerns over colonics is that the procedure is "mostly harmless" - and
that the reported pitfalls are rather easily avoided by correct practices.
Quoted message said:Bowels have been moving naturally by themselves for millenia. There is no reason to think that
people need colonic irrigation.
People don't *need* colonic irrigation. They don't *need* exercise either. Nor do they need to -
say - gargle.
The question is not whether these things are "needed" but whether they can be beneficial.
Yogis knew about colonics thousands of years ago. They have been practicing cleansing techniques
such as Neti and Basti for centuries.
Presumably science will eventually catch up - and figure out why colonics are of interest.
There are after all, some obvious advantages to treating some bowel problems from below - rather
than trying to do practically everything from the top.
--
__________
|im |yler timtyler.orgtimtyler.orgOpen ↗ [email hidden] Remove lock to reply.
"Tim Tyler" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...
Quoted message said:Jeff <[email hidden]> wrote or quoted:
(...)
Quoted message said:Quoted message said:
These studies do not apply to the vast majority of people.Yes I know. However if you discard studies like these there really isn't very much left on which
to base an opinion.
Actuallay there is. Everything known about patholgy, gastrointestinal anatomy and function,
pathology, immunology, microbiology, etc., indicates that the material in the colon stays in the
colon until it passes. There is really very little evidence to indicate that colon cleansing
does anything.
Quoted message said:This shows how western medicine works in some respect - treatments are mostly tried on ill
patients.
Gee. I wonder why.
However, preventive medicine has done wonders, like prevent millions of deaths from measles, mumps,
rubella, polio, smallpox, etc.
Quoted message said:Colonic irrigation is typically billed as preventative medicine -
There is abdundant evidence that vaccines work. And none that colonic irrigation works. And evidence
that it is dangerous and potentially counter productive.
Quoted message said:so it would be nice to see the effects on moderately healthy subjects - but few such studies have
been performed.
Because they would, IMHO, be unethical. There is no evidence that they work, no basic science to
suggest that they would work, they are expensive and potentially deadly.
Quoted message said:Quoted message said:The theories about colonic irrigation arose before our modern
understanding
Quoted message said:Quoted message said:of how the body works. It was thought that by doing colonic cleansing, toxins would be removed
from the body and liver function (whatever they thought that was) would be improved. The fact is
that the stuff inside
the
Quoted message said:Quoted message said:colon is not really in the body (it is isolated from the body by the
colon
Quoted message said:Quoted message said:wall). Toxins do not move from the colon to inside the body. Rather,
they
Quoted message said:Quoted message said:stay isolated in the colon until they are eliminated.
The problems that commonly afflict the colon in the aged include diverticulitis, cancer, ulcers,
irritable bowel syndrome and inflammation.
None of which would colonic irrigation reduce. Proper diet, excercise, elimination patterns would
help, however.
Quoted message said:Diverticular disease is characterised by stagnant pockets of colon wall being pushed through their
muscular lining, and then becomming breeding grounds for bacteria. It seems like common sense to
me that washing and scrubbing the colon would be theraputic here.
Why? What difference would it make? The colon is full of bacteria. As soon as you wash the colon,
more bacteria will move. Better to have ensure better colon function by diet, excercise and proper
elimination patterns.
Quoted message said:While the causes of colon cancer and ulcerative colitis are not known in detail it seems likely
that they are caused - in part - by mechanical or chemical elements in the colon and rectum
attacking the lining - and being repeatedly forced against its surface under pressure.
No, it is chemical irritation. And enemas will disturb the colon function, which will lead to more
irratition. Instead, let the colon work naturally by proper diet, excercise and elimination.
Quoted message said:Again, it seems likely to me that an internal warm bath is likely to be theraputic here.
The water will most likely be a different temperature and the bacteria will be disurbed. Better to
let the colon function naturally.
Quoted message said:It offers - among other things - temporary respite from the insult
yeah, a few minute a week from a function the colon was designed to do. Not much of respite. ,
Quoted message said:a means to relieve pressure by softening and
loosening the material being compressed,
No material is being compressed. And besides the colon can compress water just as easily.
Quoted message said:and washes away the resident bacteria - allowing them to be replaced by benign species.
Or bad species.
Quoted message said:Quoted message said:There is no reason to suspect that colonic irrigation really does
anything
Quoted message said:Quoted message said:to help people.
Scientifically speaking there's no reason to think it doesn't either.
Yes there is. The colon is designed to work a certain way. That way does not include a tube shoved
up the ass.
Quoted message said:That's the problem with a lack of study - ignorance works both ways.
Actually, no.
Quoted message said:Quoted message said:The basic medical sciences do provide any reason to believe that colonic irrigation will help
anyone.What serious attempt to investigate the issue has been made by these sciences?
Gastroenterologists don't recommend them except in certain circumstances. What more do you need?
Quoted message said:Quoted message said:There are no studies to support that colonic irrigation helps people avoid illness or that the
toxins in the colon cause illness.That's because the question has not been adequately studied.
Because such studies would be harmful and unethical
Quoted message said:Quoted message said:There is evidence to suggest that colonic irrigation can cause
electrolyte
Quoted message said:Quoted message said:imbalances, colonic rupture as well as dependence of enemas to move the bowels.
The danger of perforating the bowel seems pretty minimal to me - if reasonable care is taken.
Minimal is not zero. And for a procedure that does not help, minimal is too much.
Quoted message said:Electrolyte imbalances can stem from absorbing lots of material from the colon during the
irrigation.
Or from lots of material, like water moving from either from the colon to the body or vice versa.
Quoted message said:Don't stick toxic compounds up there - and don't shove fluid up there continuously for many hours
on end - and you should be OK.
Should be? Not good enough for me.
Quoted message said:The other possible cause is very frequent enemas. Minerals are absorbed from the large intestine.
If this is continuously empty then you may not be absorbing a balanced spectrum of minerals. The
most obvious solution to this is not to have enemas day after day for weeks at a time without
careful monitoring and compensating
supplementation
Quoted message said:with minerals and intestinal flora.
Or not have enemas at all.
Quoted message said:Dependence on laxatives is much more common than dependence on enemas. Since the former is more
serious (through the influence of questionable chemicals on the entire GI tract), I should think
giving a few more enemas instead would be warmly welcomed.
Better yet, don't use enemas or laxatives all. I never use laxitives at and colon functions
perfectly. The waste leaves my body after a few hours to a day or two (I can tell when I eat corn).
Quoted message said:The common long-term solution to such problems is high fibre diets. It is usually a very effective
solution.
Correct.
Quoted message said:Infection has been another concern historically - but sterilising the equipment used is an
effective solution. Using a disposable speculum also works rather well.
Or giving enemas works better and saves money.
Quoted message said:Im impression of the safety concerns over colonics is that the procedure is "mostly harmless" -
and that the reported pitfalls are rather easily avoided by correct practices.
Like not giving enemas in the first place.
Quoted message said:Quoted message said:Bowels have been moving naturally by themselves for millenia. There is
no
Quoted message said:Quoted message said:reason to think that people need colonic irrigation.
People don't *need* colonic irrigation. They don't *need* exercise
either.
Actually, excercise helps the heart, intestines, arteries, brain, etc. Colonic iirigation
helps nothing.
Quoted message said:Nor do they need to - say - gargle.
The question is not whether these things are "needed" but whether they can be beneficial.
Excercise, yes. Colonic irrigation, except for very specific conditions when supervised by a good
health care professional, no.
Quoted message said:Yogis knew about colonics thousands of years ago. They have been practicing cleansing techniques
such as Neti and Basti for centuries.
So? That doesn't mean the techniques work. People have been practicing voo-doo and blood letting for
years too.
Quoted message said:Presumably science will eventually catch up - and figure out why colonics are of interest.
The quacks have caught up. And so have their bank accounts.
Yet you offer no reason to support your connection that colonics will help anyone. Can you come up
with a reason why? We know the toxic theory is incorrect. Can you provide a reason why we would
expect that a colonic would be helpful?
Quoted message said:There are after all, some obvious advantages to treating some bowel problems from below - rather
than trying to do practically everything from the top.
Really? What are these advantages? Electrolyte imbalances and colonic rupture?
I would think that the advatages of a healthy diet would outweigh any advantages of sticking a tube
up your butt.
If you can provide any real evidenced that colonic irrigation is helpful, I will respond. All you
are doing is responding with conjecture.
Jeff
Quoted message said:--
__________
|im |yler timtyler.orgtimtyler.orgOpen ↗ [email hidden] Remove lock to reply.
Once upon a time, our fellow Jeff rambled on about "Re: enema colon cleansng." Our champion
De-Medicalizing in sci.med.nutrition retorts, thusly ...
Quoted message said:Most people do not have colonostomies.
Ha, ... Hah, Ha!
And, we all know why the patient got a colonostomy in the first place, don't we?
Just more heroic medicine, in the modern age. 🙁
Jeff <[email hidden]> wrote or quoted:
Quoted message said:"Tim Tyler" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...
Quoted message said:Jeff <[email hidden]> wrote or quoted:
Quoted message said:Quoted message said:Quoted message said:These studies do not apply to the vast majority of people.
Yes I know. However if you discard studies like these there really isn't very much left on which
to base an opinion.Actuallay there is. Everything known about patholgy, gastrointestinal anatomy and function,
pathology, immunology, microbiology, etc., indicates that the material in the colon stays in the
colon until it passes.
Except for minerals and water. So what? Where was that disputed.
Quoted message said:There is really very little evidence to indicate that colon cleansing does anything.
That's a ridiculous statement, given studies I've already cited.
Quoted message said:Quoted message said:This shows how western medicine works in some respect - treatments are mostly tried on ill
patients.Gee. I wonder why.
It's because that's how it is funded.
Contrast with the situation in China - where doctors are paid when the family is healthy - and go
unwaged when they are sick.
Quoted message said:Quoted message said:The problems that commonly afflict the colon in the aged include diverticulitis, cancer, ulcers,
irritable bowel syndrome and inflammation.None of which would colonic irrigation reduce. [...]
In the absence of evidence from studies, there's no way to know that.
Quoted message said:Quoted message said:Diverticular disease is characterised by stagnant pockets of colon wall being pushed through
their muscular lining, and then becomming breeding grounds for bacteria. It seems like common
sense to me that washing and scrubbing the colon would be theraputic here.Why? What difference would it make? The colon is full of bacteria. As soon as you wash the colon,
more bacteria will move.
It would force water into the pockets - softening, and breaking down any materials inside, and
flushing out any resident bacteria.
The idea that the new bacteria are no different from the old ones is likely to be a fallacy. Old
ones have had some time to adapt to their environment, and are chosen from a pool which has been
present since the last time the colon was cleaned out.
New ones are likely to be chosen from a much smaller pool initially, based on the contents of the
current diet. The idea is that this smaller pool is less likely to contain pathogens.
Quoted message said:Quoted message said:While the causes of colon cancer and ulcerative colitis are not known in detail it seems likely
that they are caused - in part - by mechanical or chemical elements in the colon and rectum
attacking the lining - and being repeatedly forced against its surface under pressure.No, it is chemical irritation.
Isn't that what I just said?
Quoted message said:And enemas will disturb the colon function, which will lead to more irratition.
Really? Warm water bathing leads to irritation? On what are you basing that?
Quoted message said:Quoted message said:Again, it seems likely to me that an internal warm bath is likely to be theraputic here.
The water will most likely be a different temperature and the bacteria will be disurbed.
Completely killing off the existing population of bacteria is part of the point of the exercise. It
destroys any pathogenic ones at the same time.
Quoted message said:Quoted message said:It offers - among other things - temporary respite from the insult
yeah, a few minute a week from a function the colon was designed to do. Not much of respite.
Not according to the patients. They report feeling "clear" and "not bunged up" for many hours after
the treatment.
Quoted message said:Quoted message said:a means to relieve pressure by softening and
loosening the material being compressed,No material is being compressed.
You speak nonsense. Compression of material in the lower colon is a serious issue - and is known to
be the cause of many health problems.
Quoted message said:And besides the colon can compress water just as easily.
Have you tried compressing water? Get a new plastic bottle of mineral water and try squeezing it.
Quoted message said:Quoted message said:and washes away the resident bacteria - allowing them to be replaced by benign species.
Or bad species.
Much more likely good species. You can deliberately feed good species in at the top - to ensure that
this is the case.
Bad species arrive in a haphazzard fashion with food over a period of time and accumulate - until
the next time you obliterate them all.
Quoted message said:Quoted message said:Quoted message said:There is no reason to suspect that colonic irrigation really does anything to help people.
Scientifically speaking there's no reason to think it doesn't either.
Yes there is. The colon is designed to work a certain way. That way does not include a tube shoved
up the ass.
That reasoning is worthless. By using the same argument, you can prove that surgery doesn't help
people either.
Quoted message said:Quoted message said:Quoted message said:The basic medical sciences do provide any reason to believe that colonic irrigation will help
anyone.What serious attempt to investigate the issue has been made by these sciences?
Gastroenterologists don't recommend them except in certain circumstances. What more do you need?
I want more studies of colonic irrigation. Currently there are very few.
Quoted message said:Quoted message said:Quoted message said:There are no studies to support that colonic irrigation helps people avoid illness or that the
toxins in the colon cause illness.That's because the question has not been adequately studied.
Because such studies would be harmful and unethical
The problem as I see it is funding. Volunteers would be easy to find.
There's nothing unethical about looking systematically at people doing what they would be
doing anyway.
Quoted message said:Quoted message said:Quoted message said:There is evidence to suggest that colonic irrigation can cause electrolyte imbalances, colonic
rupture as well as dependence of enemas to move the bowels.The danger of perforating the bowel seems pretty minimal to me - if reasonable care is taken.
Minimal is not zero. And for a procedure that does not help, minimal is too much.
If it proven that it doesn't help, I will abandon any claim for it. I don't see that ever
happening, though.
Quoted message said:Quoted message said:Don't stick toxic compounds up there - and don't shove fluid up there continuously for many hours
on end - and you should be OK.Should be? Not good enough for me.
Don't worry - nobody is going to force *you* to have the procedure done ;-)
Quoted message said:Quoted message said:Dependence on laxatives is much more common than dependence on enemas. Since the former is more
serious (through the influence of questionable chemicals on the entire GI tract), I should think
giving a few more enemas instead would be warmly welcomed.Better yet, don't use enemas or laxatives all.
That is the ideal for the healthy. Not everyone is healthy, though - and currently the medical
profession recommends laxatives for a number of conditions.
Quoted message said:Quoted message said:People don't *need* colonic irrigation. They don't *need* exercise either.
Actually, excercise helps the heart, intestines, arteries, brain, etc.
I never said it didn't. I merely said they don't *need* it.
Quoted message said:Colonic iirigation helps nothing.
IYO - but in the absence of much actual testing, who is to say?
We know that colonics halps certain sorts of incontinence, and is useful among colostomy patients. I
reckon the chances are it would be shown to help others as well - if the tests were ever done.
Quoted message said:Yet you offer no reason to support your connection that colonics will help anyone. Can you come up
with a reason why? We know the toxic theory is incorrect. Can you provide a reason why we would
expect that a colonic would be helpful?
Firstly the "toxic gut" theory is far from discredited. There can be actively malevolent bacteria
and their waste products in the colon - if these are not "toxic" then I don't know what is. It is
likely to be in their interests to attack and penetrate the gut wall and take up more permanent
residence.
Colonics are likely to help diverticular disorders - by penetrating into the diverticular regions,
and removing debris and potential causes of inflamation.
Colonics provide temporary relief from the disorders of constapation. Other things do this as well -
but few provide such immediate local relief.
Colonics may help with disorders such as ulcerative colitis, irritable bowel syndrome, pain,
bloating, and colon cancer as well, by promoting correct flow, removing parasites and hostile
bacteria, softening the stools - and so on.
Lastly colonics provide a short-term psychological boost. An irrigation is a bit like having an
exceptionally good [censored]. As a result you immediately feel much lighter, more free, and as though a
digestive burden has been removed from you - which of course is actually exactly what has happened.
Quoted message said:Quoted message said:There are after all, some obvious advantages to treating some bowel problems from below - rather
than trying to do practically everything from the top.Really? What are these advantages? [...]
You are near to the source of the problem, your intervention can be applied immediately, and it does
not have to pass through the stomach and small intestine before it can go to work.
Quoted message said:I would think that the advatages of a healthy diet would outweigh any advantages of sticking a
tube up your butt.
Maybe they do - but it is not an either-or situation, since you can do both - so the importance of
diet is totally irrelevant to this discussion.
Quoted message said:If you can provide any real evidenced that colonic irrigation is helpful, I will respond. All you
are doing is responding with conjecture.
If you recall my basic point was that there was insufficient evidence to say very much about the
effectiveness of colonic irrigation.
I will whole-heartedly agree that it is unproven - but take exception at claims that it has been
shown to be ineffective.
--
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|im |yler timtyler.orgtimtyler.orgOpen ↗ [email hidden] Remove lock to reply.
[email hidden] wrote or quoted:
Quoted message said:Is there any research on which to base an informed opinion?
Not enough - IMO.
In the mean time check out this for a convincing reason to consider colonics:
timtyler.freeshell.orgfrom the colema bowl.jpgOpen ↗
Better out than in, I reckon ;-)
--
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Matt <[email hidden]> wrote or quoted:
Quoted message said:Quoted message said:Matt <[email hidden]> wrote or quoted:
Quoted message said:Quoted message said:Quoted message said:Just wondering what people think of colon cleansing products. I have used enemas and colon
cleansing herbs. It generaly makes me feel good after a cleansing, herbs are hit and miss
though. I did find a unique site that combines the twowww.enemakit.com
anyone ever purchase from them or combine herbs with colonic enema cleansing?
How do we discern the merely spam from the sincere request for information?
I guess that is a no? , ya I should of left out the website
You can discern the "merely spam" from the "sincere request for information" by noting that Matt
<[email hidden]> is down as the administrative contact for www.enemakit.com.
whois enemakit.com
Domain Name: enemakit.com
Administrative Contact: Matt Peterson (ZSNRG) [email hidden] P38 Media 1441 Pennsylvania St #18
Denver, co 80218 United States [...]
That makes him an astroturfer who is too incompetent to disguise his own identity effectively -
surely a low breed of usenet denizen :-(
--
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|im |yler timtyler.orgtimtyler.orgOpen ↗ [email hidden] Remove lock to reply.
"John 'the Man'" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...
Quoted message said:Once upon a time, our fellow Jeff rambled on about "Re: enema colon cleansng." Our champion
De-Medicalizing in sci.med.nutrition retorts, thusly ...Quoted message said:Most people do not have colonostomies.
Ha, ... Hah, Ha!
And, we all know why the patient got a colonostomy in the first place, don't we?
Just more heroic medicine, in the modern age. 🙁
Yeah, instead, let's just let people die from colon cancer and let them suffer a horrible end with
blocked intestines.
Jeff
Once upon a time, our fellow Jeff rambled on about "Re: enema colon cleansng." Our champion
De-Medicalizing in sci.med.nutrition retorts, thusly ...
Quoted message said:Yeah, instead, let's just let people die from colon cancer and let them suffer a horrible end with
blocked intestines.
Yeah, why start worrying about quality of life issues when medicine never has?
Ha, ... Hah, Ha!
"Tim Tyler" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...
Quoted message said:Jeff <[email hidden]> wrote or quoted:
Quoted message said:"Tim Tyler" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...
Quoted message said:Quoted message said:Quoted message said:Jeff <[email hidden]> wrote or quoted:
Quoted message said:Quoted message said:> These studies do not apply to the vast majority of people.
Yes I know. However if you discard studies like these there really isn't very much left on
which to base an opinion.Actuallay there is. Everything known about patholgy, gastrointestinal anatomy and function,
pathology, immunology, microbiology, etc.,
indicates
Quoted message said:Quoted message said:that the material in the colon stays in the colon until it passes.
Except for minerals and water. So what? Where was that disputed.
Quoted message said:There is really very little evidence to indicate that colon cleansing does anything.
That's a ridiculous statement, given studies I've already cited.
No. The studies you cited had to with people under doctor's care for taking care of the
colonostomies or with very specific fecal soiling. Problems that do apply to very few people. You
can't use these studies to back colon cleansing for people without these problems.
Quoted message said:Quoted message said:Quoted message said:This shows how western medicine works in some respect - treatments are mostly tried on ill
patients.Gee. I wonder why.
It's because that's how it is funded.
Or because the of the lack of evidence that colon cleansing would help anyone, having these studies
on otherwise healthy people would be dangerous and unethical.
Quoted message said:Contrast with the situation in China - where doctors are paid when the family is healthy - and go
unwaged when they are sick.
In the US, doctors are often paid by HMOs one set fee, regardless of how many visits a patient
makes. This paying doctors to keep patients healthy.
Quoted message said:Quoted message said:Quoted message said:The problems that commonly afflict the colon in the aged include diverticulitis, cancer,
ulcers, irritable bowel syndrome and inflammation.None of which would colonic irrigation reduce. [...]
In the absence of evidence from studies, there's no way to know that.
And no reason to beleive that colonic cleansing will reduce the symptoms of these conditions.
Quoted message said:Quoted message said:Quoted message said:Diverticular disease is characterised by stagnant pockets of colon wall being pushed through
their muscular lining, and then becomming breeding grounds for bacteria. It seems like common
sense to me that washing and scrubbing the colon would be theraputic here.Why? What difference would it make? The colon is full of bacteria. As soon as you wash the
colon, more bacteria will move.It would force water into the pockets - softening, and breaking down any materials inside, and
flushing out any resident bacteria.
And remove healthy bacteria from the colon wall.
But, what evidence do you have that colonic cleansing really gets in the pockets?
Quoted message said:The idea that the new bacteria are no different from the old ones is likely to be a fallacy.
Correct. They are likely to be less healthy for the colon wall than the ones that were there.
Quoted message said:Old ones have had some time to adapt to their environment, and are chosen from a pool which has
been present since the last time the colon was cleaned out.
Yeah, the same thing happens to me every mornign when I [censored]: The old bacteria get flushed.
Quoted message said:New ones are likely to be chosen from a much smaller pool initially, based on the contents of the
current diet. The idea is that this smaller pool is less likely to contain pathogens.
So? Why would you think that this idea is correct?
Quoted message said:Quoted message said:Quoted message said:While the causes of colon cancer and ulcerative colitis are not known in detail it seems likely
that they are caused - in part - by mechanical or chemical elements in the colon and rectum
attacking the lining - and being repeatedly forced against its surface under pressure.No, it is chemical irritation.
Isn't that what I just said?
No. You said chemical irritation and mechanical forces. Yet there is no evidence that mechanical
forces cause colon cancer. There are plenty of mechanical forces acting when one runs because of the
contents of the colon are repeatably pushed up and down during running. But physical activity seems
to decrease the risk of colon cancer.
Quoted message said:Quoted message said:And enemas will disturb the colon function, which will lead to more irratition.
Really? Warm water bathing leads to irritation?
Yeap. I dries out the skin. And putting stuff in the colon that does not belong and distrubing the
bacteria there will also lead to irriration.
Quoted message said:On what are you basing that?
Logic and knowledge of colon physiology and chemistry.
Quoted message said:Quoted message said:Quoted message said:Again, it seems likely to me that an internal warm bath is likely to be theraputic here.
The water will most likely be a different temperature and the bacteria
will
Quoted message said:Quoted message said:be disurbed.
Completely killing off the existing population of bacteria is part of the point of the exercise.
1) You won't completely kill all of the existing bacteria.
2) Killing all of the existing bacteria will disturb the colon, which is not good.
Quoted message said:It destroys any pathogenic ones at the same time.
Really? And bacteria in the colon are pathogenic? And what evdience is there that these bacteria are
pathogenic and that enemas help the situation?
Quoted message said:Quoted message said:Quoted message said:It offers - among other things - temporary respite from the insult
yeah, a few minute a week from a function the colon was designed to do.
Not
Quoted message said:Quoted message said:much of respite.
Not according to the patients. They report feeling "clear" and "not bunged up" for many hours
after the treatment.
Yet this hearsay is not evidence that this colon cleansing offers any real benefit.
Quoted message said:Quoted message said:Quoted message said:a means to relieve pressure by softening and
loosening the material being compressed,No material is being compressed.
You speak nonsense. Compression of material in the lower colon is a serious issue - and is known
to be the cause of many health problems.
Really. How about some evidence that material is compressed and that this compression is the cause
of many health problems?
Quoted message said:Quoted message said:And besides the colon can compress water just as easily.
Have you tried compressing water? Get a new plastic bottle of mineral water and try squeezing it.
Exactly. Unless there is air in the colon, the contents can't be compressed.
Quoted message said:Quoted message said:Quoted message said:and washes away the resident bacteria - allowing them to be replaced by benign species.
Or bad species.
Much more likely good species.
Based on what evidence?
Quoted message said:You can deliberately feed good species in at the top - to ensure that this is the case.
Thank you. You provide a very good reason why colon cleansing is not needed.
Quoted message said:Bad species arrive in a haphazzard fashion with food over a period of time and accumulate - until
the next time you obliterate them all.
Really? Based on what evidence?
Quoted message said:Quoted message said:Quoted message said:> There is no reason to suspect that colonic irrigation really does anything to help people.
Scientifically speaking there's no reason to think it doesn't either.
Yes there is. The colon is designed to work a certain way. That way does
not
Quoted message said:Quoted message said:include a tube shoved up the ass.
That reasoning is worthless. By using the same argument, you can prove that surgery doesn't help
people either.
I can provide evidence that surgery helps people.
Based on your own admission, you are unable to provide evidence that colonic cleansing helps people,
except for some very specific conditions under the care of physicians.
There is much reason to believe that an enema can distrub the electrolyte balance or cause
colonic rupture.
Quoted message said:Quoted message said:Quoted message said:> The basic medical sciences do provide any reason to believe that colonic irrigation will help
> anyone.What serious attempt to investigate the issue has been made by these sciences?
Gastroenterologists don't recommend them except in certain
circumstances.
Quoted message said:Quoted message said:What more do you need?
I want more studies of colonic irrigation. Currently there are very few.
Becuase there is no valid reason to beleive that colonic irrigation helps people. And much reason to
think that it either doesn't help or is actually harmful.
Quoted message said:Quoted message said:Quoted message said:> There are no studies to support that colonic irrigation helps people avoid illness or that
> the toxins in the colon cause illness.That's because the question has not been adequately studied.
Because such studies would be harmful and unethical
The problem as I see it is funding. Volunteers would be easy to find.
Well, start a fundation for the funding.
Quoted message said:There's nothing unethical about looking systematically at people doing what they would be
doing anyway.
I disagree. If that is the case, start your foundation and see if you can get a hosptial review
board to agree to supervise a study.
Quoted message said:Quoted message said:Quoted message said:> There is evidence to suggest that colonic irrigation can cause electrolyte imbalances,
> colonic rupture as well as dependence of enemas to move the bowels.The danger of perforating the bowel seems pretty minimal to me - if reasonable care is taken.
Minimal is not zero. And for a procedure that does not help, minimal is
too
Quoted message said:Quoted message said:much.
If it proven that it doesn't help, I will abandon any claim for it. I don't see that ever
happening, though.
You already have no real evidence for your claim.
Quoted message said:Quoted message said:Quoted message said:Don't stick toxic compounds up there - and don't shove fluid up there continuously for many
hours on end - and you should be OK.Should be? Not good enough for me.
Don't worry - nobody is going to force *you* to have the procedure done
;-)
Quoted message said:
Quoted message said:Quoted message said:Dependence on laxatives is much more common than dependence on enemas. Since the former is more
serious (through the influence of questionable chemicals on the entire GI tract), I should
think giving a few more enemas instead would be warmly welcomed.Better yet, don't use enemas or laxatives all.
That is the ideal for the healthy. Not everyone is healthy, though - and currently the medical
profession recommends laxatives for a number of conditions.
Correct. And only use of enemas for specific conditions, like clean out prior to colonoscopy or
surgery or sever blockage.
Quoted message said:Quoted message said:Quoted message said:People don't *need* colonic irrigation. They don't *need* exercise either.
Actually, excercise helps the heart, intestines, arteries, brain, etc.
I never said it didn't. I merely said they don't *need* it.
They *do* need excercise to stay healthy.
Quoted message said:Quoted message said:Colonic iirigation helps nothing.
IYO - but in the absence of much actual testing, who is to say?
By this reasoning, riding on rollar coaster should be used to treat diarrhea. There is no evidence
that it doesn't work.
But, based on the physiology, anatomy and pathology of the body and gastrointestinal function, there
is very little reason to beleive that colonic irrigation will be helpful and much reason to beleive
that it is dangerous and will lead to dependence on colonic irrigation to move the bowels.
Quoted message said:We know that colonics halps certain sorts of incontinence, and is useful among colostomy patients.
I reckon the chances are it would be shown to help others as well - if the tests were ever done.
Your reckoning is next to worthless.
Quoted message said:Quoted message said:Yet you offer no reason to support your connection that colonics will
help
Quoted message said:Quoted message said:anyone. Can you come up with a reason why? We know the toxic theory is incorrect. Can you
provide a reason why we would expect that a colonic
would
Quoted message said:Quoted message said:be helpful?
Firstly the "toxic gut" theory is far from discredited.
Really. Provide evidence supporting it.
Quoted message said:There can be actively malevolent bacteria and their waste products in the colon - if these are not
"toxic" then I don't know what is.
OK, please name the toxiins that these bacteria produce and show us how when the blood levels of
these toxins go up, people get sick.
Quoted message said:It is likely to be in their interests to attack and penetrate the gut wall and take up more
permanent residence.
Really? Show us the evidence that this occurs? Certainly, if this is true, pathologists will have
many photographs of bacteria in the gut wall.
Quoted message said:Colonics are likely to help diverticular disorders - by penetrating into the diverticular regions,
and removing debris and potential causes of inflamation.
Again, show us the evidence. Likely is not good enough.
Quoted message said:Colonics provide temporary relief from the disorders of constapation. Other things do this as well
- but few provide such immediate local relief.
And risk colon rupture and other serious conditions.
Quoted message said:Colonics may help with disorders such as ulcerative colitis, irritable bowel syndrome, pain,
bloating, and colon cancer as well, by promoting correct flow, removing parasites and hostile
bacteria, softening the stools - and so on.
May help? Again, not good enough.
Quoted message said:Lastly colonics provide a short-term psychological boost. An irrigation is a bit like having an
exceptionally good [censored]. As a result you immediately feel much lighter, more free, and as though a
digestive burden has been removed from you - which of course is actually exactly what has
happened.
Unless, of course, the digestive burden gets into your body because you rupture your colon. Or you
become dependent on colonics to move your bowels.
Quoted message said:Quoted message said:Quoted message said:There are after all, some obvious advantages to treating some bowel problems from below -
rather than trying to do practically everything from the top.Really? What are these advantages? [...]
You are near to the source of the problem, your intervention can be applied immediately, and it
does not have to pass through the stomach and small intestine before it can go to work.
No, the source of the problem is improper diet, bowel habits and excercise.
Quoted message said:Quoted message said:I would think that the advatages of a healthy diet would outweigh any advantages of sticking a
tube up your butt.Maybe they do - but it is not an either-or situation, since you can do both - so the importance of
diet is totally irrelevant to this discussion.
The importance of diet is irrelevent to gastrointestinal function is irrelevent only to
total [censored].
Quoted message said:Quoted message said:If you can provide any real evidenced that colonic irrigation is
helpful, I
Quoted message said:Quoted message said:will respond. All you are doing is responding with conjecture.
If you recall my basic point was that there was insufficient evidence to say very much about the
effectiveness of colonic irrigation.
And much scientific evidence based on the physiology and patholgoy of gi function to support that it
won't help colon function.
Quoted message said:I will whole-heartedly agree that it is unproven - but take exception at claims that it has been
shown to be ineffective.
Only because you are clueless and believe stupid people.
Jeff
Quoted message said:--
__________
|im |yler timtyler.orgtimtyler.orgOpen ↗ [email hidden] Remove lock to reply.
Jeff <[email hidden]> wrote or quoted:
Quoted message said:
"Tim Tyler" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...Quoted message said:Jeff <[email hidden]> wrote or quoted:
Quoted message said:"Tim Tyler" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...Quoted message said:Quoted message said:> Jeff <[email hidden]> wrote or quoted:
Quoted message said:> > These studies do not apply to the vast majority of people.
>
> Yes I know. However if you discard studies like these there really isn't very much left on
> which to base an opinion.Actuallay there is. Everything known about patholgy, gastrointestinal anatomy and function,
pathology, immunology, microbiology, etc., indicates that the material in the colon stays in
the colon until it passes.Except for minerals and water. So what? Where was that disputed.
Quoted message said:There is really very little evidence to indicate that colon cleansing does anything.
That's a ridiculous statement, given studies I've already cited.
No. The studies you cited had to with people under doctor's care for taking care of the
colonostomies or with very specific fecal soiling. Problems that do apply to very few people. You
can't use these studies to back colon cleansing for people without these problems.
All I was trying to dispute was that "there is really very little evidence to indicate that colon
cleansing does anything". Perhaps that statement is just too dumb to bother with - but not even you
would normally argue that its effects are no different from a placebo.
Quoted message said:Quoted message said:Quoted message said:> This shows how western medicine works in some respect - treatments are mostly tried on ill
> patients.Gee. I wonder why.
It's because that's how it is funded.
Or because the of the lack of evidence that colon cleansing would help anyone, having these
studies on otherwise healthy people would be dangerous and unethical.
No - since people willingly pay money to have it done on a daily basis. Study need only involve
examinig thenm and following them up.
Quoted message said:Quoted message said:Quoted message said:> Diverticular disease is characterised by stagnant pockets of colon wall being pushed through
> their muscular lining, and then becomming breeding grounds for bacteria. It seems like common
> sense to me that washing and scrubbing the colon would be theraputic here.Why? What difference would it make? The colon is full of bacteria. As soon as you wash the
colon, more bacteria will move.It would force water into the pockets - softening, and breaking down any materials inside, and
flushing out any resident bacteria.And remove healthy bacteria from the colon wall.
Yes. Replacing healthy bacteria is not difficult, though - eat some probiotics.
Quoted message said:But, what evidence do you have that colonic cleansing really gets in the pockets?
I don't know to what extent it does. Inevitably it will reach some and not others. Water is quite
penetrating, though.
Quoted message said:Quoted message said:The idea that the new bacteria are no different from the old ones is likely to be a fallacy.
Correct. They are likely to be less healthy for the colon wall than the ones that were there.
No, the reverse is the case. It's the same as with fasting. The bacteria are largely destroyed - and
the healthy ones are replaced faster than the pathogenic ones - since the former are deliberately
ingested - while the latter arrive less frequently on infected foodstuffs.
Quoted message said:Quoted message said:Old ones have had some time to adapt to their environment, and are chosen from a pool which has
been present since the last time the colon was cleaned out.Yeah, the same thing happens to me every morning when I [censored]: The old bacteria get flushed.
Going to the toilet is not enough to remove bacteria from the colon. Of course many /are/ removed -
but many more stay.
Arguably, colonics are not always enough either. A simultaneous fast should help kill them off.
Quoted message said:Quoted message said:New ones are likely to be chosen from a much smaller pool initially, based on the contents of the
current diet. The idea is that this smaller pool is less likely to contain pathogens.So? Why would you think that this idea is correct?
It fits what is knows about bacterial pathogens - the ones capable of reaching and infecting the
colon are relatively rare.
It is also one of the reasons fasting is thought to be theraputic - it kills intestinal pathogens by
depriving them of food. You can stand the food deprivation stress - but they are much smaller, have
fewer reserves, and starve.
However I would certainly like to see more testing of these ideas.
Quoted message said:Quoted message said:Quoted message said:> While the causes of colon cancer and ulcerative colitis are not known in detail it seems
> likely that they are caused - in part - by mechanical or chemical elements in the colon and
> rectum attacking the lining - and being repeatedly forced against its surface under pressure.No, it is chemical irritation.
Isn't that what I just said?
No. You said chemical irritation and mechanical forces.
"Chemical irritation *or* mechanical forces" would have been a better summary.
Quoted message said:Yet there is no evidence that mechanical forces cause colon cancer.
Maybe - maybe not. My guess is though that scraping fecal material through the rectum increases
local stress and cell death and ups the turnover rate of cells there, producing growth, and
cancer. I definitely think pressure is involved. Pressure explains why most colon cancer is
colorectal cancer.
Quoted message said:Quoted message said:Quoted message said:And enemas will disturb the colon function, which will lead to more irratition.
Really? Warm water bathing leads to irritation?
Yeap. I dries out the skin. [...]
A minor, short-term effect. Any displaced oils are quickly replaced.
Bathing also cleans. Try six months without bathing and see what it does for your level of skin
irritation.
Quoted message said:And putting stuff in the colon that does not belong and distrubing the bacteria there will also
lead to irriration.Quoted message said:On what are you basing that?
Logic and knowledge of colon physiology and chemistry.
I'd prefer some actual test results. My experience does not suggest irritation is much of a factor -
and AFAIK it is not regarded as a known side effect of colonics.
Quoted message said:Quoted message said:Quoted message said:> Again, it seems likely to me that an internal warm bath is likely to be theraputic here.
The water will most likely be a different temperature and the bacteria will be disurbed.
Completely killing off the existing population of bacteria is part of the point of the exercise.
1) You won't completely kill all of the existing bacteria.
Probably not. You will probably wipe out a good many strains, though.
Quoted message said:2) Killing all of the existing bacteria will disturb the colon, which is not good.
Yes it is - since you get rid of the pathogenic ones - and the friendly ones are easily replaced.
Quoted message said:Quoted message said:It destroys any pathogenic ones at the same time.
Really? And bacteria in the colon are pathogenic? And what evdience is there that these bacteria
are pathogenic and that enemas help the situation?
A good deal is known about pathogenic bacteria.
Look into some of these, for example: Streptococcus faecalis, Salmonella, CMV, Cryptosporidium, MAC,
Shigella flexneri, Clostridium difficile, Campylobacter jejuni, Histoplasma capsulatum.
Colonic irrigation is fairly effective at removing bacteria from the colon. One of the problems is
that is doesn't always penetrate as far as the ileocecal valve, though.
If you want to know which pathogens it is most useful for treating, and how effective it is, then I
expect you would be keen to see more research done on the issue.
Quoted message said:Quoted message said:Quoted message said:> It offers - among other things - temporary respite from the insult
yeah, a few minute a week from a function the colon was designed to do. Not much of respite.
Not according to the patients. They report feeling "clear" and "not bunged up" for many hours
after the treatment.Yet this hearsay is not evidence that this colon cleansing offers any real benefit.
Fair enough. We will only knew whether colon cleansing offers any real benefit when the issue is
properly studied scientifically.
I don't see that as having been done yet.
Quoted message said:Quoted message said:Quoted message said:> a means to relieve pressure by softening and
> loosening the material being compressed,No material is being compressed.
You speak nonsense. Compression of material in the lower colon is a serious issue - and is known
to be the cause of many health problems.Really. How about some evidence that material is compressed and that this compression is the cause
of many health problems?
Diverticular regions:
``Diverticula are believed to be caused by overly forceful contractions of the muscular wall of the
large intestine. As areas of this wall spasm, they become weaker and weaker, allowing the inner
lining to bulge through. The anatomically weakest areas of the intestinal wall occur next to blood
vessels which course through the wall, so diverticula commonly occur in this location. [...]
A diet low in fiber results in the production of smaller volumes of stool. In order to move this
smaller stool along the colon and out of the rectum, the colon must narrow itself significantly,
and does so by contracting down forcefully. This causes an increase in pressure, which, over time,
weakens the muscular wall of the intestine and allows diverticular pockets to develop.''
Haemorrhoids
``Haemorrhoids are very common. They are said to be more common in countries where the diet has
traditionally been more processed and low in fibre. The main contributory causes are those things
that cause us to raise the pressure in the abdomen. This causes the blood vessels to swell and
become engorged.
It seems that the people most at risk of developing haemorrhoids are those who have more causes
for raised abdominal pressure, such as:
Those chronically straining with constipation. [...]''
- medinfo.co.ukhaemorrhoids.htmlOpen ↗
Quoted message said:Quoted message said:Quoted message said:And besides the colon can compress water just as easily.
Have you tried compressing water? Get a new plastic bottle of mineral water and try squeezing it.
Exactly. Unless there is air in the colon, the contents can't be compressed.
Compressing stools squeezes water out of them. The water is absorbed by the colon walls. This water
loss explains how the stools of constapated individuals can become dry and hard. Flooding the colon
with water causes rehydration.
Quoted message said:Quoted message said:Quoted message said:> and washes away the resident bacteria - allowing them to be replaced by benign species.
Or bad species.
Much more likely good species.
Based on what evidence?
Based on the fact that these can be ingested. Bad bacteria will only arrive with bad foods.
Quoted message said:Quoted message said:You can deliberately feed good species in at the top - to ensure that this is the case.
Thank you. You provide a very good reason why colon cleansing is not needed.
If you *don't* remove the bad species, and *only* pump in good ones there is reduced chance of the
good species coming to dominate. The bad species might be well adapted to their niches, and
successfully persist.
[snip]
Quoted message said:Quoted message said:Quoted message said:Colonic iirigation helps nothing.
IYO - but in the absence of much actual testing, who is to say?
By this reasoning, riding on rollar coaster should be used to treat diarrhea. There is no evidence
that it doesn't work.
In this case nobody is claiming it to be a useful therapy.
I see no reason to investigate it further at this stage.
Quoted message said:But, based on the physiology, anatomy and pathology of the body and gastrointestinal function,
there is very little reason to beleive that colonic irrigation will be helpful and much reason to
beleive that it is dangerous and will lead to dependence on colonic irrigation to move the bowels.
Your intuition is different from mine. I think local interventions in the colon have significant
theraputic potential. As first-aid for constipation; as maintenance for diverticulitis; and as
preventative medicine for intestinal flora disturbances. The risks are pretty minimal and largely
avoidable.
Quoted message said:Quoted message said:We know that colonics halps certain sorts of incontinence, and is useful among colostomy
patients. I reckon the chances are it would be shown to help others as well - if the tests were
ever done.Your reckoning is next to worthless.
Thanks :-(
Quoted message said:Quoted message said:Quoted message said:Yet you offer no reason to support your connection that colonics will help anyone. Can you come
up with a reason why? We know the toxic theory is incorrect. Can you provide a reason why we
would expect that a colonic would be helpful?Firstly the "toxic gut" theory is far from discredited.
Really. Provide evidence supporting it.
See the literature on intestinal pathogens.
Quoted message said:Quoted message said:There can be actively malevolent bacteria and their waste products in the colon - if these are
not "toxic" then I don't know what is.OK, please name the toxiins that these bacteria produce and show us how when the blood levels of
these toxins go up, people get sick.
You don't have to look far for bacterial toxins produced in the colon. Indol, Skatol, Paracresol,
Phenol, Methane, Ammonia, Phenylsulphate, Ptomaine, Pyrrhol, Cadaverin, Isoamylamine, Ethylamine are
all produced by bacterial action in the colon.
Toxins don't have to enter the bloodstream to cause problems - they can act locally - as they do in
the case of ulcerative colitis.
Quoted message said:Quoted message said:It is likely to be in their interests to attack and penetrate the gut wall and take up more
permanent residence.Really? Show us the evidence that this occurs? Certainly, if this is true, pathologists will have
many photographs of bacteria in the gut wall.
Yes - what do you think ulcers are?
In extreme cases the bacteria can eat right through the gut wall, and make it into the abdomen -
resulting in peritonitis.
Quoted message said:Quoted message said:Colonics are likely to help diverticular disorders - by penetrating into the diverticular
regions, and removing debris and potential causes of inflamation.Again, show us the evidence. Likely is not good enough.
I'm the one asking for more testing. Your position seems to be that science already knows that the
therapy is worthless.
Quoted message said:Quoted message said:Colonics provide temporary relief from the disorders of constapation. Other things do this as
well - but few provide such immediate local relief.And risk colon rupture and other serious conditions.
Inept medical practitioners can be a hazzard - in practically all fields of medicine. However you
cannot use them to support the assertion that a treatment doesn't work.
Modern colonic irrigation is really very safe. Compare its safety record to that of laxatives (which
are widely used):
``Continued laxative use can cause bloating, cramping, dehydration, electrolyte disturbances and
imbalances, cardiac arrhythmias, irregular heart beat and heart attack, renal problems, and death.''
- diet-i.comlaxatives to lose weight.htmOpen ↗
When your competition looks like that, it is hard to have an inferior safety record.
It is generally simpler and safer to put water in through the rectum than it is to feed irritants
with dubious safety records in through the stomach and small intestine.
Quoted message said:Quoted message said:Quoted message said:> There are after all, some obvious advantages to treating some bowel problems from below -
> rather than trying to do practically everything from the top.Really? What are these advantages? [...]
You are near to the source of the problem, your intervention can be applied immediately, and it
does not have to pass through the stomach and small intestine before it can go to work.No, the source of the problem is improper diet, bowel habits and excercise.
All very well - but that does not offer much immediate assistance to the constipated patient in the
waiting room.
I'm all for preventative therapies rather than first aid. However first aid *is* an important part
of medicine.
Quoted message said:Quoted message said:Quoted message said:I would think that the advatages of a healthy diet would outweigh any advantages of sticking a
tube up your butt.Maybe they do - but it is not an either-or situation, since you can do both - so the importance
of diet is totally irrelevant to this discussion.The importance of diet is irrelevent to gastrointestinal function is irrelevent only to total
[censored].
That doesn't seem to be a sentence. I'm not /quite/ sure what you are saying - and so will postpone
commenting directly.
However, perhaps I can amplify on my original point:
It doesn't matter if the advatages of a healthy diet outweigh the advantages of colonics - since
they are independent events - and you can do both.
Having a good diet does not exclude the possibility of health improvements by other means.
It is the same with exercise. Prebably the benefits of a good diet outweigh the benefits of proper
exercise. However that is no argument for not exercising. Whether exercise is theraputic or not has
very little to do with the issue of how good exercise is with respect to diet.
Quoted message said:Quoted message said:Quoted message said:If you can provide any real evidenced that colonic irrigation is helpful, I will respond. All
you are doing is responding with conjecture.If you recall my basic point was that there was insufficient evidence to say very much about the
effectiveness of colonic irrigation.And much scientific evidence based on the physiology and patholgoy of gi function to support that
it won't help colon function.
I don't see it. You asked me to explain how colonic irrigation might help - since you were under the
impression that its theoretical foundations were unsound. I've made efforts in that direction.
My comments are not contrary to the physiology and pathology of gastro-intestinal function as far as
I'm aware.
Quoted message said:Quoted message said:I will whole-heartedly agree that it is unproven - but take exception at claims that it has been
shown to be ineffective.Only because you are clueless and believe stupid people.
You are reduced to insulting me. A sorry end to the discussion :-(
--
__________
|im |yler timtyler.orgtimtyler.orgOpen ↗ [email hidden] Remove lock to reply.
Tim
That was not very nice. It seems you too are another astroturfer who is too incompetent to disguise
his own identity effectively ( I love the photos )
This is not matt, i just think those who live in glass houses........
Tim Tyler 62 Ashton Road Ashton BRISTOL BS3 2EQ GB
Organization:Mersenne Consulting Phone :+441.179396363
Email:
[email hidden] [email hidden]
Great Photos of Tim
Name Server:NS0.SERVE.NET.UK Name Server:NS0.SERVE.CO.UK
mr trademark <[email hidden]> wrote or quoted:
Quoted message said:That was not very nice.
I was trying to prevent folk from being duped by a deceptive poster.
Quoted message said:It seems you too are another astroturfer who is too incompetent to disguise his own identity
effectively [...]
Except that I wasn't astro-turfing - and I made no attempt to disguise my identity.
--
__________
|im |yler timtyler.orgtimtyler.orgOpen ↗ [email hidden] Remove lock to reply.
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