End of the World Cup

In article <[email hidden]>,

DiabloScott said:

Any insight on why they're getting rid of the World Cup? It's coinciding with the first year of
the Pro Tour but I can't think of a reason not to have both. Hardly even been any mention that
this is the last year.

Because nobody even noticed the World Cup. It was all TdF, all the time.

The Pro Tour is an effort to force the hands of several groups: elite teams will have to compete
against each other in elite events a lot more often. The grand tours will be forced to invite all
the top teams.

It is hoped that all of this will force the teams to contest the Pro Tour events seriously, thus
leading to a serious world-cup-like series, with roughly equivalent events.

--
Ryan Cousineau, [email hidden] sfu.ca~rcousineOpen ↗ President, Fabrizio Mazzoleni Fan Club

Ryan Cousineau schreef:

Quoted message said:

The Pro Tour is an effort to force the hands of several groups: elite teams will have to compete
against each other in elite events a lot more often. The grand tours will be forced to invite all
the top teams.

UCI has a lot of work with this system , if they want cycling to benefit.

Top 20 teams will be forced to do the full Pro Tour calendar. It's impossible to do that seriously
with just 25 riders. Or there will be top teams just 'riding through' e.g. the Giro. Then such a
race might be better off with smaller teams for whom it's the race of the year. And that certainly
goes for their sponsors!

And what with national/regional sponsors behind a big team? For them national races can often be
more important than some Pro Tour event elsewhere. I mean, it are not Coca-cola, Mastercard etc. who
come into cycling. Firms who do often have ideas of targeting specific countries.

Well maybe I'm just sour because Belgium will only have 4 (four) racing days in this whole pro tour
package.....

Van Hoorebeeck Bart schreef:

Quoted message said:

. Firms who do often have ideas of targeting specific countries.

should have been "BUT RATHER firms who have...." sorry

Whatever happened to the whole globalization of cycling anyhow? They (UCI) should have supported the
GP des Ameriques. They could have then added a US venue like Philly and we'd be on our way.
Verbruggen has done a mediocre job in my opinion. He's almost as bad as the NHL's Gary Bettman in a
reverse sort of way. The Giro will always be bigger in Italy than the Tour is (in Italy). They
should designate a few wild card spots for regional teams in each regional event including the GT's.
Sort of like the Tour does already although I know a lot of you are against that practice.

James

"Van Hoorebeeck Bart" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Ryan Cousineau schreef:

Quoted message said:

The Pro Tour is an effort to force the hands of several groups: elite teams will have to compete
against each other in elite events a lot more often. The grand tours will be forced to invite
all the top teams.

UCI has a lot of work with this system , if they want cycling to benefit.

Top 20 teams will be forced to do the full Pro Tour calendar. It's

impossible to

Quoted message said:

do that seriously with just 25 riders. Or there will be top teams just

'riding

Quoted message said:

through' e.g. the Giro. Then such a race might be better off with smaller

teams

Quoted message said:

for whom it's the race of the year. And that certainly goes for their

sponsors!

Quoted message said:

And what with national/regional sponsors behind a big team? For them

national

Quoted message said:

races can often be more important than some Pro Tour event elsewhere. I

mean, it

Quoted message said:

are not Coca-cola, Mastercard etc. who come into cycling. Firms who do

often have

Quoted message said:

ideas of targeting specific countries.

Well maybe I'm just sour because Belgium will only have 4 (four) racing

days in

Quoted message said:

this whole pro tour package.....

James P. Spooner said:

Whatever happened to the whole globalization of cycling anyhow? They (UCI) should have supported
the GP des Ameriques. They could have then added a US venue like Philly and we'd be on our way.
Verbruggen has done a mediocre job in my opinion.

To the contrary, I maintain the US has been shown favoritism in the assignment of UCI rankings,
considering the maturity, depth of field, and spectator interest in the UCI-sanctioned races.

The UCI doesn't promote races. The races have to be driven locally. They respond. Look at Malaysia.

Dan

"James P. Spooner" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:L6q%b.605184$JQ1.457827@pd7tw1no...

Quoted message said:

Whatever happened to the whole globalization of cycling anyhow? They

(UCI)

Quoted message said:

should have supported the GP des Ameriques.

But they did! The problem was that the costs were too high (it costs a lot of money to make the
whole cycling circus cross the ocean) and a lack of interest of the general public, which was the
reason that the organisation had to sell the TV rights for a meagre $ 32,000, much less than the
European classics. The unavoidable result: the losses were huge. In 1991 the GP Cycliste des
Amériques still managed to find a new sponsor. But when it lost more than the $ 1.000.000 in 1992,
it stopped. End of story. I really don't see what the UCI had to do with it.

Benjo Maso

They could have then added a US

Quoted message said:

venue like Philly and we'd be on our way. Verbruggen has done a mediocre job in my opinion. He's
almost as bad as the NHL's Gary Bettman in a reverse sort of way. The Giro will always be bigger
in Italy than the

Tour

Quoted message said:

is (in Italy). They should designate a few wild card spots for regional teams in each regional
event including the GT's. Sort of like the Tour

does

Quoted message said:

already although I know a lot of you are against that practice.

James

"Van Hoorebeeck Bart" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Ryan Cousineau schreef:

Quoted message said:

The Pro Tour is an effort to force the hands of several groups: elite teams will have to
compete against each other in elite events a lot

more

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

often. The grand tours will be forced to invite all the top teams.

UCI has a lot of work with this system , if they want cycling to

benefit.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Top 20 teams will be forced to do the full Pro Tour calendar. It's

impossible to

Quoted message said:

do that seriously with just 25 riders. Or there will be top teams just

'riding

Quoted message said:

through' e.g. the Giro. Then such a race might be better off with

smaller

Quoted message said:

teams

Quoted message said:

for whom it's the race of the year. And that certainly goes for their

sponsors!

Quoted message said:

And what with national/regional sponsors behind a big team? For them

national

Quoted message said:

races can often be more important than some Pro Tour event elsewhere. I

mean, it

Quoted message said:

are not Coca-cola, Mastercard etc. who come into cycling. Firms who do

often have

Quoted message said:

ideas of targeting specific countries.

Well maybe I'm just sour because Belgium will only have 4 (four) racing

days in

Quoted message said:

this whole pro tour package.....

I was thinking along the lines of Formula 1 which has a race in Montreal and used to have one (has
again?) in the US. GP Ameriques was well attended spectator-wise and received live coverage on CBC.
It's not the UCI's job to promote races but they likely could have done a better job with this
particular race. I also don't think the UCI rankings and points have anything to do with the
prestige of a race; who follows the world rankings? The bottom line is that Verbruggen hasn't done a
good job outside of Europe (or inside IMO).

James

"Dan Connelly" <d_j_c_o_n_n_e_l@i_e_e_e.o_r_g> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

James P. Spooner said:

Whatever happened to the whole globalization of cycling anyhow? They

(UCI)

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

should have supported the GP des Ameriques. They could have then added

a US

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

venue like Philly and we'd be on our way. Verbruggen has done a

mediocre

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

job in my opinion.

To the contrary, I maintain the US has been shown favoritism in the

assignment

Quoted message said:

of UCI rankings, considering the maturity, depth of field, and spectator

interest

Quoted message said:

in the UCI-sanctioned races.

The UCI doesn't promote races. The races have to be driven locally. They

respond.

Quoted message said:

Look at Malaysia.

Dan

The organisation lost the million because they had to pay for everything like the teams' flights.
None (or few) of the European races have to do that. I'm not saying that the UCI could have "saved"
it but they definitely could have made it more attractive. For example letting it remain a WC and
let the teams that come over take the points; be it Saturn, Coors Light, Panasonic, or whomever.

James

"benjo maso" <[email hidden]> wrote in message -"]news:[email hidden]-
berlin.de...

Quoted message said:

"James P. Spooner" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:L6q%b.605184$JQ1.457827@pd7tw1no...

Quoted message said:

Whatever happened to the whole globalization of cycling anyhow? They

(UCI)

Quoted message said:

should have supported the GP des Ameriques.

But they did! The problem was that the costs were too high (it costs a lot of money to make the
whole cycling circus cross the ocean) and a lack of interest of the general public, which was the
reason that the organisation had to sell the TV rights for a meagre $ 32,000, much less than the

European

Quoted message said:

classics. The unavoidable result: the losses were huge. In 1991 the GP Cycliste des Amériques
still managed to find a new sponsor. But when it

lost

Quoted message said:

more than the $ 1.000.000 in 1992, it stopped. End of story. I really

don't

Quoted message said:

see what the UCI had to do with it.

Benjo Maso

They could have then added a US

Quoted message said:

venue like Philly and we'd be on our way. Verbruggen has done a

mediocre

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

job in my opinion. He's almost as bad as the NHL's Gary Bettman in a reverse sort of way. The
Giro will always be bigger in Italy than the

Tour

Quoted message said:

is (in Italy). They should designate a few wild card spots for regional teams in each regional
event including the GT's. Sort of like the Tour

does

Quoted message said:

already although I know a lot of you are against that practice.

James

"Van Hoorebeeck Bart" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Ryan Cousineau schreef:

> The Pro Tour is an effort to force the hands of several groups:

elite

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> teams will have to compete against each other in elite events a lot

more

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> often. The grand tours will be forced to invite all the top teams.
>

UCI has a lot of work with this system , if they want cycling to

benefit.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Top 20 teams will be forced to do the full Pro Tour calendar. It's

impossible to

Quoted message said:

do that seriously with just 25 riders. Or there will be top teams just

'riding

Quoted message said:

through' e.g. the Giro. Then such a race might be better off with

smaller

Quoted message said:

teams

Quoted message said:

for whom it's the race of the year. And that certainly goes for their

sponsors!

Quoted message said:

And what with national/regional sponsors behind a big team? For them

national

Quoted message said:

races can often be more important than some Pro Tour event elsewhere.

I

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

mean, it

Quoted message said:

are not Coca-cola, Mastercard etc. who come into cycling. Firms who do

often have

Quoted message said:

ideas of targeting specific countries.

Well maybe I'm just sour because Belgium will only have 4 (four)

racing

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

days in

Quoted message said:

this whole pro tour package.....

"James P. Spooner" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:aTt%b.605637$JQ1.588202@pd7tw1no...

Quoted message said:

The organisation lost the million because they had to pay for everything like the teams' flights.
None (or few) of the European races have to do that. I'm not saying that the UCI could have
"saved" it but they

definitely

Quoted message said:

could have made it more attractive. For example letting it remain a WC and let the teams that come
over take the points; be it Saturn, Coors Light, Panasonic, or whomever.

In Europe the teams are usually coming in buses. The reason why the organisers of the GPA had to pay
all the costs is very simple: if they had not, the numer of entrants would have been very small.
Every team is willing to pay to participate to the Tour, but who cares about the GP des Amériques,
the Wincanton Classic or the Japan Cup? Giving them points for the WC doens't change anything: the
WC has never been important. The Flèche Wallone is still considered as an important race - although
you couldn't get points for the WC - , the HEW Cyclassic Hamburg perhaps in thirty years. Calling a
race as classic doesn't change nothing. It's nice to win the WC, but it doesn't matter much. It's
just as the Climber's trophy in the Tour: only a handful of riders are really interested. And by the
way, AFAIK the GP des Amériques remained a WC-race until the last year it was organised (1992).

Benjo Maso

Quoted message said:

James

"benjo maso" <[email hidden]> wrote in message -"]news:[email hidden]-
berlin.de...

Quoted message said:

"James P. Spooner" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:L6q%b.605184$JQ1.457827@pd7tw1no...

Quoted message said:

Whatever happened to the whole globalization of cycling anyhow? They

(UCI)

Quoted message said:

should have supported the GP des Ameriques.

But they did! The problem was that the costs were too high (it costs a

lot

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

of money to make the whole cycling circus cross the ocean) and a lack of interest of the general
public, which was the reason that the

organisation

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

had to sell the TV rights for a meagre $ 32,000, much less than the

European

Quoted message said:

classics. The unavoidable result: the losses were huge. In 1991 the GP Cycliste des Amériques
still managed to find a new sponsor. But when it

lost

Quoted message said:

more than the $ 1.000.000 in 1992, it stopped. End of story. I really

don't

Quoted message said:

see what the UCI had to do with it.

Benjo Maso

They could have then added a US

Quoted message said:

venue like Philly and we'd be on our way. Verbruggen has done a

mediocre

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

job in my opinion. He's almost as bad as the NHL's Gary Bettman in a reverse sort of way. The
Giro will always be bigger in Italy than the

Tour

Quoted message said:

is (in Italy). They should designate a few wild card spots for

regional

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

teams in each regional event including the GT's. Sort of like the

Tour

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

does

Quoted message said:

already although I know a lot of you are against that practice.

James

"Van Hoorebeeck Bart" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...
>
>
> Ryan Cousineau schreef:
>
> > The Pro Tour is an effort to force the hands of several groups:

elite

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> > teams will have to compete against each other in elite events a

lot

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

more

Quoted message said:

> > often. The grand tours will be forced to invite all the top teams.
> >
>
> UCI has a lot of work with this system , if they want cycling to

benefit.

Quoted message said:

>
> Top 20 teams will be forced to do the full Pro Tour calendar. It's
impossible to
> do that seriously with just 25 riders. Or there will be top teams

just

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

'riding
> through' e.g. the Giro. Then such a race might be better off with

smaller

Quoted message said:

teams
> for whom it's the race of the year. And that certainly goes for

their

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

sponsors!
>
> And what with national/regional sponsors behind a big team? For them
national
> races can often be more important than some Pro Tour event

elsewhere.

Quoted message said:

I

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

mean, it
> are not Coca-cola, Mastercard etc. who come into cycling. Firms who

do

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

often have
> ideas of targeting specific countries.
>
> Well maybe I'm just sour because Belgium will only have 4 (four)

racing

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

days in
> this whole pro tour package.....
>
>

Well why have a UCI then? It should have some sort of international agenda instead of the current
Euro-centric one. Maybe they should go back to the old Super Prestige Pernod type series. I wouldn't
place the GP des Ameriques among the most sought after races but it was bigger here (in Canada) than
anything European (was in Canada). Just as Amstel Gold is bigger in Holland than anywhere else as is
MSR in Italy etc.

James

"benjo maso" <[email hidden]> wrote in message -"]news:[email hidden]-
berlin.de...

Quoted message said:

"James P. Spooner" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:aTt%b.605637$JQ1.588202@pd7tw1no...

Quoted message said:

The organisation lost the million because they had to pay for everything like the teams'
flights. None (or few) of the European races have to do that. I'm not saying that the UCI could
have "saved" it but they

definitely

Quoted message said:

could have made it more attractive. For example letting it remain a WC

and

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

let the teams that come over take the points; be it Saturn, Coors Light, Panasonic, or whomever.

In Europe the teams are usually coming in buses. The reason why the organisers of the GPA had to
pay all the costs is very simple: if they had not, the numer of entrants would have been very
small. Every team is

willing

Quoted message said:

to pay to participate to the Tour, but who cares about the GP des

Amériques,

Quoted message said:

the Wincanton Classic or the Japan Cup? Giving them points for the WC doens't change anything: the
WC has never been important. The Flèche

Wallone

Quoted message said:

is still considered as an important race - although you couldn't get

points

Quoted message said:

for the WC - , the HEW Cyclassic Hamburg perhaps in thirty years. Calling

a

Quoted message said:

race as classic doesn't change nothing. It's nice to win the WC, but it doesn't matter much.
It's just as the Climber's trophy in the Tour: only a handful of riders are really interested.
And by the way, AFAIK the GP des Amériques remained a WC-race until the last year it was
organised (1992).

Benjo Maso

Quoted message said:

James

"benjo maso" <[email hidden]> wrote in message -"]news:[email hidden]-
berlin.de...

Quoted message said:

"James P. Spooner" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:L6q%b.605184$JQ1.457827@pd7tw1no...
> Whatever happened to the whole globalization of cycling anyhow?

They

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

(UCI)
> should have supported the GP des Ameriques.

But they did! The problem was that the costs were too high (it costs a

lot

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

of money to make the whole cycling circus cross the ocean) and a lack

of

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

interest of the general public, which was the reason that the

organisation

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

had to sell the TV rights for a meagre $ 32,000, much less than the

European

Quoted message said:

classics. The unavoidable result: the losses were huge. In 1991 the GP Cycliste des Amériques
still managed to find a new sponsor. But when

it

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

lost

Quoted message said:

more than the $ 1.000.000 in 1992, it stopped. End of story. I really

don't

Quoted message said:

see what the UCI had to do with it.

Benjo Maso

They could have then added a US
> venue like Philly and we'd be on our way. Verbruggen has done a

mediocre

Quoted message said:

> job in my opinion. He's almost as bad as the NHL's Gary Bettman in

a

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> reverse sort of way. The Giro will always be bigger in Italy than

the

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Tour
> is (in Italy). They should designate a few wild card spots for

regional

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> teams in each regional event including the GT's. Sort of like the

Tour

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

does
> already although I know a lot of you are against that practice.
>
> James
>
>
> "Van Hoorebeeck Bart" <[email hidden]> wrote

in

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> message "]news:[email hidden]...
> >
> >
> > Ryan Cousineau schreef:
> >
> > > The Pro Tour is an effort to force the hands of several groups:

elite

Quoted message said:

> > > teams will have to compete against each other in elite events a

lot

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

more
> > > often. The grand tours will be forced to invite all the top

teams.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> > >
> >
> > UCI has a lot of work with this system , if they want cycling to
benefit.
> >
> > Top 20 teams will be forced to do the full Pro Tour calendar. It's
> impossible to
> > do that seriously with just 25 riders. Or there will be top teams

just

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> 'riding
> > through' e.g. the Giro. Then such a race might be better off with
smaller
> teams
> > for whom it's the race of the year. And that certainly goes for

their

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> sponsors!
> >
> > And what with national/regional sponsors behind a big team? For

them

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> national
> > races can often be more important than some Pro Tour event

elsewhere.

Quoted message said:

I

Quoted message said:

> mean, it
> > are not Coca-cola, Mastercard etc. who come into cycling. Firms

who

Quoted message said:

do

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> often have
> > ideas of targeting specific countries.
> >
> > Well maybe I'm just sour because Belgium will only have 4 (four)

racing

Quoted message said:

> days in
> > this whole pro tour package.....
> >
> >
>
>

"James P. Spooner" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:rQv%b.625700$ts4.230166@pd7tw3no...

Quoted message said:

Well why have a UCI then? It should have some sort of international

agenda

Quoted message said:

instead of the current Euro-centric one.

It has. It resulted in the World Cup - created by Verbruggen. But the UCI cannot educate nor the
public neither the sponsors. When people aren't interested and it's impossible to find sponsors
everything stops.

Maybe they should go back to the

Quoted message said:

old Super Prestige Pernod type series.

Perhaps, although I am not sure it will have more success

I wouldn't place the GP des

Quoted message said:

Ameriques among the most sought after races but it was bigger here (in Canada) than anything
European (was in Canada). Just as Amstel Gold is bigger in Holland than anywhere else as is MSR in
Italy etc.

I hate to say this, but I'm afraid Canada is not a very important cycling country. The GPdA might
have been big in Canada, but apparently not big enough to attract enough sponsors.

Benjo Maso

Quoted message said:

James

"benjo maso" <[email hidden]> wrote in message -"]news:[email hidden]-
berlin.de...

Quoted message said:

"James P. Spooner" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:aTt%b.605637$JQ1.588202@pd7tw1no...

Quoted message said:

The organisation lost the million because they had to pay for

everything

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

like the teams' flights. None (or few) of the European races have to

do

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

that. I'm not saying that the UCI could have "saved" it but they

definitely

Quoted message said:

could have made it more attractive. For example letting it remain a WC

and

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

let the teams that come over take the points; be it Saturn, Coors

Light,

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Panasonic, or whomever.

In Europe the teams are usually coming in buses. The reason why the organisers of the GPA had to
pay all the costs is very simple: if they

had

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

not, the numer of entrants would have been very small. Every team is

willing

Quoted message said:

to pay to participate to the Tour, but who cares about the GP des

Amériques,

Quoted message said:

the Wincanton Classic or the Japan Cup? Giving them points for the WC doens't change anything:
the WC has never been important. The Flèche

Wallone

Quoted message said:

is still considered as an important race - although you couldn't get

points

Quoted message said:

for the WC - , the HEW Cyclassic Hamburg perhaps in thirty years.

Calling

Quoted message said:

a

Quoted message said:

race as classic doesn't change nothing. It's nice to win the WC, but it doesn't matter much.
It's just as the Climber's trophy in the Tour: only

a

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

handful of riders are really interested. And by the way, AFAIK the GP

des

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Amériques remained a WC-race until the last year it was organised

(1992).

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Benjo Maso

Quoted message said:

James

"benjo maso" <[email hidden]> wrote in message -"]news:[email hidden]-
berlin.de...
>
> "James P. Spooner" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
> news:L6q%b.605184$JQ1.457827@pd7tw1no...
> > Whatever happened to the whole globalization of cycling anyhow?

They

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> (UCI)
> > should have supported the GP des Ameriques.
>
>
> But they did! The problem was that the costs were too high (it costs

a

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

lot

Quoted message said:

> of money to make the whole cycling circus cross the ocean) and a

lack

Quoted message said:

of

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> interest of the general public, which was the reason that the

organisation

Quoted message said:

> had to sell the TV rights for a meagre $ 32,000, much less than the
European
> classics. The unavoidable result: the losses were huge. In 1991 the

GP

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> Cycliste des Amériques still managed to find a new sponsor. But when

it

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

lost
> more than the $ 1.000.000 in 1992, it stopped. End of story. I

really

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

don't
> see what the UCI had to do with it.
>
> Benjo Maso
>
>
>
>
>
> They could have then added a US
> > venue like Philly and we'd be on our way. Verbruggen has done a
mediocre
> > job in my opinion. He's almost as bad as the NHL's Gary Bettman

in

Quoted message said:

a

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> > reverse sort of way. The Giro will always be bigger in Italy than

the

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> Tour
> > is (in Italy). They should designate a few wild card spots for

regional

Quoted message said:

> > teams in each regional event including the GT's. Sort of like the

Tour

Quoted message said:

> does
> > already although I know a lot of you are against that practice.
> >
> > James
> >
> >
> > "Van Hoorebeeck Bart" <[email hidden]> wrote

in

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> > message "]news:[email hidden]...
> > >
> > >
> > > Ryan Cousineau schreef:
> > >
> > > > The Pro Tour is an effort to force the hands of several

groups:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

elite
> > > > teams will have to compete against each other in elite events

a

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

lot

Quoted message said:

> more
> > > > often. The grand tours will be forced to invite all the top

teams.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> > > >
> > >
> > > UCI has a lot of work with this system , if they want cycling to
> benefit.
> > >
> > > Top 20 teams will be forced to do the full Pro Tour calendar.

It's

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> > impossible to
> > > do that seriously with just 25 riders. Or there will be top

teams

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

just

Quoted message said:

> > 'riding
> > > through' e.g. the Giro. Then such a race might be better off

with

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> smaller
> > teams
> > > for whom it's the race of the year. And that certainly goes for

their

Quoted message said:

> > sponsors!
> > >
> > > And what with national/regional sponsors behind a big team? For

them

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> > national
> > > races can often be more important than some Pro Tour event

elsewhere.

Quoted message said:

I
> > mean, it
> > > are not Coca-cola, Mastercard etc. who come into cycling. Firms

who

Quoted message said:

do

Quoted message said:

> > often have
> > > ideas of targeting specific countries.
> > >
> > > Well maybe I'm just sour because Belgium will only have 4 (four)
racing
> > days in
> > > this whole pro tour package.....
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>

Benjo,

The GP des Ameriques was a pretty big race crowd-wise (1 million or so plus TV), and to my
understanding the reason it went under was because the expenses of flying in all the teams. The
World Cup is hardly a World Cup and they just added a couple races (Wincanton) and called them World
Cups. Again, using the Formula 1 model which never used to be an issue here in Canada the Montreal
GP is well attended and viable (despite certain issues this year). I think if Verbruggen would have
supported a North American stop(s) for a few years the fans would have come. Instead we remain a
third rate cycling nation.

James

"benjo maso" <[email hidden]> wrote in message -"]news:[email hidden]-
berlin.de...

Quoted message said:

"James P. Spooner" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:rQv%b.625700$ts4.230166@pd7tw3no...

Quoted message said:

Well why have a UCI then? It should have some sort of international

agenda

Quoted message said:

instead of the current Euro-centric one.

It has. It resulted in the World Cup - created by Verbruggen. But the UCI cannot educate nor the
public neither the sponsors. When people aren't interested and it's impossible to find sponsors
everything stops.

Maybe they should go back to the

Quoted message said:

old Super Prestige Pernod type series.

Perhaps, although I am not sure it will have more success

I wouldn't place the GP des

Quoted message said:

Ameriques among the most sought after races but it was bigger here (in Canada) than anything
European (was in Canada). Just as Amstel Gold is bigger in Holland than anywhere else as is MSR
in Italy etc.

I hate to say this, but I'm afraid Canada is not a very important cycling country. The GPdA might
have been big in Canada, but apparently not big enough to attract enough sponsors.

Benjo Maso

Quoted message said:

James

"benjo maso" <[email hidden]> wrote in message -"]news:[email hidden]-
berlin.de...

Quoted message said:

"James P. Spooner" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:aTt%b.605637$JQ1.588202@pd7tw1no...
> The organisation lost the million because they had to pay for

everything

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> like the teams' flights. None (or few) of the European races have

to

Quoted message said:

do

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> that. I'm not saying that the UCI could have "saved" it but they
definitely
> could have made it more attractive. For example letting it remain a

WC

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

and

Quoted message said:

> let the teams that come over take the points; be it Saturn, Coors

Light,

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> Panasonic, or whomever.

In Europe the teams are usually coming in buses. The reason why the organisers of the GPA had
to pay all the costs is very simple: if they

had

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

not, the numer of entrants would have been very small. Every team is

willing

Quoted message said:

to pay to participate to the Tour, but who cares about the GP des

Amériques,

Quoted message said:

the Wincanton Classic or the Japan Cup? Giving them points for the WC doens't change anything:
the WC has never been important. The Flèche

Wallone

Quoted message said:

is still considered as an important race - although you couldn't get

points

Quoted message said:

for the WC - , the HEW Cyclassic Hamburg perhaps in thirty years.

Calling

Quoted message said:

a

Quoted message said:

race as classic doesn't change nothing. It's nice to win the WC, but

it

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

doesn't matter much. It's just as the Climber's trophy in the Tour:

only

Quoted message said:

a

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

handful of riders are really interested. And by the way, AFAIK the GP

des

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Amériques remained a WC-race until the last year it was organised

(1992).

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Benjo Maso

>
> James
>
>
> "benjo maso" <[email hidden]> wrote in message -"]news:[email hidden]-
> berlin.de...
> >
> > "James P. Spooner" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
> > news:L6q%b.605184$JQ1.457827@pd7tw1no...
> > > Whatever happened to the whole globalization of cycling anyhow?

They

Quoted message said:

> > (UCI)
> > > should have supported the GP des Ameriques.
> >
> >
> > But they did! The problem was that the costs were too high (it

costs

Quoted message said:

a

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

lot
> > of money to make the whole cycling circus cross the ocean) and a

lack

Quoted message said:

of

Quoted message said:

> > interest of the general public, which was the reason that the
organisation
> > had to sell the TV rights for a meagre $ 32,000, much less than

the

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> European
> > classics. The unavoidable result: the losses were huge. In 1991

the

Quoted message said:

GP

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> > Cycliste des Amériques still managed to find a new sponsor. But

when

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

it

Quoted message said:

> lost
> > more than the $ 1.000.000 in 1992, it stopped. End of story. I

really

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> don't
> > see what the UCI had to do with it.
> >
> > Benjo Maso
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > They could have then added a US
> > > venue like Philly and we'd be on our way. Verbruggen has done a
> mediocre
> > > job in my opinion. He's almost as bad as the NHL's Gary Bettman

in

Quoted message said:

a

Quoted message said:

> > > reverse sort of way. The Giro will always be bigger in Italy

than

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

the

Quoted message said:

> > Tour
> > > is (in Italy). They should designate a few wild card spots for
regional
> > > teams in each regional event including the GT's. Sort of like

the

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Tour
> > does
> > > already although I know a lot of you are against that practice.
> > >
> > > James
> > >
> > >
> > > "Van Hoorebeeck Bart" <[email hidden]>

wrote

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

in

Quoted message said:

> > > message "]news:[email hidden]...
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Ryan Cousineau schreef:
> > > >
> > > > > The Pro Tour is an effort to force the hands of several

groups:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> elite
> > > > > teams will have to compete against each other in elite

events

Quoted message said:

a

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

lot
> > more
> > > > > often. The grand tours will be forced to invite all the top

teams.

Quoted message said:

> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > UCI has a lot of work with this system , if they want cycling

to

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> > benefit.
> > > >
> > > > Top 20 teams will be forced to do the full Pro Tour calendar.

It's

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> > > impossible to
> > > > do that seriously with just 25 riders. Or there will be top

teams

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

just
> > > 'riding
> > > > through' e.g. the Giro. Then such a race might be better off

with

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> > smaller
> > > teams
> > > > for whom it's the race of the year. And that certainly goes

for

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

their
> > > sponsors!
> > > >
> > > > And what with national/regional sponsors behind a big team?

For

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

them

Quoted message said:

> > > national
> > > > races can often be more important than some Pro Tour event
elsewhere.
> I
> > > mean, it
> > > > are not Coca-cola, Mastercard etc. who come into cycling.

Firms

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

who

Quoted message said:

do
> > > often have
> > > > ideas of targeting specific countries.
> > > >
> > > > Well maybe I'm just sour because Belgium will only have 4

(four)

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> racing
> > > days in
> > > > this whole pro tour package.....
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>

A question. In the new premier division, how many of those races will be outside Europe? Perhaps
this hasn't been finalized yet.

It seems that the UCI is really a marketing organization that looks to where the money is to be had.
Is Malaysia a "cycling nation?" Or is there just sponsorship money there? How is that different from
Oz where there is genuine interest in cycling and some economic clout? I suspect that if the
sponsorship market were there, they'd be racing a cup event in Bombay in mid-August. They're in
Qatar and that's only about money----well, podium boys too.

As to Montreal, it is a wonderful circuit to watch a race on. There is a culture in Quebec that has
long supported bicycle racing. But the economy of Quebec has not been all that strong (nor Canada
for that matter, although
W. is working to change that) so the sponsor market is weak.

Anyway, maybe we should just go back to everything as it was when Eddy set the Hour and make
everyone ride, promote and equip teams circa 1975. I've got a few sets of downtube shifters to sell.

"James P. Spooner" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:faw%b.605869$JQ1.435906@pd7tw1no...

Quoted message said:

Benjo,

The GP des Ameriques was a pretty big race crowd-wise (1 million or so

plus

Quoted message said:

TV), and to my understanding the reason it went under was because the expenses of flying in all
the teams. The World Cup is hardly a World Cup and they just added a couple races (Wincanton) and
called them World Cups. Again, using the Formula 1 model which never used to be an issue here in
Canada the Montreal GP is well attended and viable (despite certain issues this year). I think if
Verbruggen would have supported a North American stop(s) for a few years the fans would have come.
Instead we remain a

third

Quoted message said:

rate cycling nation.

James

"benjo maso" <[email hidden]> wrote in message -"]news:[email hidden]-
berlin.de...

Quoted message said:

"James P. Spooner" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:rQv%b.625700$ts4.230166@pd7tw3no...

Quoted message said:

Well why have a UCI then? It should have some sort of international

agenda

Quoted message said:

instead of the current Euro-centric one.

It has. It resulted in the World Cup - created by Verbruggen. But the

UCI

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

cannot educate nor the public neither the sponsors. When people aren't interested and it's
impossible to find sponsors everything stops.

Maybe they should go back to the

Quoted message said:

old Super Prestige Pernod type series.

Perhaps, although I am not sure it will have more success

I wouldn't place the GP des

Quoted message said:

Ameriques among the most sought after races but it was bigger here (in Canada) than anything
European (was in Canada). Just as Amstel Gold

is

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

bigger in Holland than anywhere else as is MSR in Italy etc.

I hate to say this, but I'm afraid Canada is not a very important

cycling

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

country. The GPdA might have been big in Canada, but apparently not big enough to attract enough
sponsors.

Benjo Maso

Quoted message said:

James

"benjo maso" <[email hidden]> wrote in message -"]news:[email hidden]-
berlin.de...
>
> "James P. Spooner" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
> news:aTt%b.605637$JQ1.588202@pd7tw1no...
> > The organisation lost the million because they had to pay for

everything

Quoted message said:

> > like the teams' flights. None (or few) of the European races have

to

Quoted message said:

do

Quoted message said:

> > that. I'm not saying that the UCI could have "saved" it but they
> definitely
> > could have made it more attractive. For example letting it remain

a

Quoted message said:

WC

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

and
> > let the teams that come over take the points; be it Saturn, Coors

Light,

Quoted message said:

> > Panasonic, or whomever.
>
>
> In Europe the teams are usually coming in buses. The reason why the organisers of the GPA
> had to pay all the costs is very simple: if

they

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

had

Quoted message said:

> not, the numer of entrants would have been very small. Every team is
willing
> to pay to participate to the Tour, but who cares about the GP des
Amériques,
> the Wincanton Classic or the Japan Cup? Giving them points for the

WC

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> doens't change anything: the WC has never been important. The Flèche
Wallone
> is still considered as an important race - although you couldn't get
points
> for the WC - , the HEW Cyclassic Hamburg perhaps in thirty years.

Calling

Quoted message said:

a
> race as classic doesn't change nothing. It's nice to win the WC, but

it

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> doesn't matter much. It's just as the Climber's trophy in the Tour:

only

Quoted message said:

a

Quoted message said:

> handful of riders are really interested. And by the way, AFAIK the

GP

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

des

Quoted message said:

> Amériques remained a WC-race until the last year it was organised

(1992).

Quoted message said:

>
> Benjo Maso
>
>
>
>
> >
> > James
> >
> >
> > "benjo maso" <[email hidden]> wrote in message -"]news:[email hidden]-
> > berlin.de...
> > >
> > > "James P. Spooner" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
> > > news:L6q%b.605184$JQ1.457827@pd7tw1no...
> > > > Whatever happened to the whole globalization of cycling

anyhow?

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

They
> > > (UCI)
> > > > should have supported the GP des Ameriques.
> > >
> > >
> > > But they did! The problem was that the costs were too high (it

costs

Quoted message said:

a

Quoted message said:

> lot
> > > of money to make the whole cycling circus cross the ocean) and a

lack

Quoted message said:

of
> > > interest of the general public, which was the reason that the
> organisation
> > > had to sell the TV rights for a meagre $ 32,000, much less than

the

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> > European
> > > classics. The unavoidable result: the losses were huge. In 1991

the

Quoted message said:

GP

Quoted message said:

> > > Cycliste des Amériques still managed to find a new sponsor. But

when

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

it
> > lost
> > > more than the $ 1.000.000 in 1992, it stopped. End of story. I

really

Quoted message said:

> > don't
> > > see what the UCI had to do with it.
> > >
> > > Benjo Maso
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > They could have then added a US
> > > > venue like Philly and we'd be on our way. Verbruggen has done

a

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> > mediocre
> > > > job in my opinion. He's almost as bad as the NHL's Gary

Bettman

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

in

Quoted message said:

a
> > > > reverse sort of way. The Giro will always be bigger in Italy

than

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

the
> > > Tour
> > > > is (in Italy). They should designate a few wild card spots

for

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> regional
> > > > teams in each regional event including the GT's. Sort of like

the

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> Tour
> > > does
> > > > already although I know a lot of you are against that

practice.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> > > >
> > > > James
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > "Van Hoorebeeck Bart" <[email hidden]>

wrote

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

in
> > > > message "]news:[email hidden]...
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Ryan Cousineau schreef:
> > > > >
> > > > > > The Pro Tour is an effort to force the hands of several

groups:

Quoted message said:

> > elite
> > > > > > teams will have to compete against each other in elite

events

Quoted message said:

a

Quoted message said:

> lot
> > > more
> > > > > > often. The grand tours will be forced to invite all the

top

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

teams.
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > UCI has a lot of work with this system , if they want

cycling

Quoted message said:

to

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> > > benefit.
> > > > >
> > > > > Top 20 teams will be forced to do the full Pro Tour

calendar.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

It's

Quoted message said:

> > > > impossible to
> > > > > do that seriously with just 25 riders. Or there will be top

teams

Quoted message said:

> just
> > > > 'riding
> > > > > through' e.g. the Giro. Then such a race might be better

off

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

with

Quoted message said:

> > > smaller
> > > > teams
> > > > > for whom it's the race of the year. And that certainly goes

for

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> their
> > > > sponsors!
> > > > >
> > > > > And what with national/regional sponsors behind a big team?

For

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

them
> > > > national
> > > > > races can often be more important than some Pro Tour event
> elsewhere.
> > I
> > > > mean, it
> > > > > are not Coca-cola, Mastercard etc. who come into cycling.

Firms

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

who
> do
> > > > often have
> > > > > ideas of targeting specific countries.
> > > > >
> > > > > Well maybe I'm just sour because Belgium will only have 4

(four)

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> > racing
> > > > days in
> > > > > this whole pro tour package.....
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>

"benjo maso" <[email hidden]> wrote in message >

Quoted message said:

In Europe the teams are usually coming in buses. The reason why the organisers of the GPA had to
pay all the costs is very simple: if they had not, the numer of entrants would have been very
small. Every team is

willing

Quoted message said:

to pay to participate to the Tour, but who cares about the GP des

Amériques,

Quoted message said:

the Wincanton Classic or the Japan Cup? Giving them points for the WC doens't change anything: the
WC has never been important. The Flèche

Wallone

Quoted message said:

is still considered as an important race - although you couldn't get

points

Quoted message said:

for the WC - , the HEW Cyclassic Hamburg perhaps in thirty years. Calling

a

Quoted message said:

race as classic doesn't change nothing. It's nice to win the WC, but it doesn't matter much. It's
just as the Climber's trophy in the Tour: only a handful of riders are really interested.

This is an interesting contrast to the way the track World Cup is set up. As I understood it, the
track WC was supposed to have an event in each the main cycling global regions: Europe,
Asia/Australia, and the Americas. Several years ago, the UCI organized 5 or 6 events/year, but this
year, it is down to four (maybe because the Worlds and Olympics all come before the end of August, I
dunno). The several significant differences between the road WCs and the track WCs are that the road
are for trade teams and the track are for national teams; and the track WCs serve as qualifiers for
Worlds and the Olympics and the road WCs don't. While the track WC organizers are not paying out for
travel, AFAIK, they do provide all support vehicles for the event, and probably the accommodations
and food as well. Logistically, it is probably easier for a road team to travel by air than a track
team (road bikes, track bikes, specialized track bikes, disk wheels, spares, etc.).

I wonder how the team budgets of national teams vs. Div 1 or 2 trade teams compare (minus the
salaries, of course)?

James P. Spooner said:

who follows the world rankings?

Everyone.

James P. Spooner said:

Benjo,

Quoted message said:

The GP des Ameriques was a pretty big race crowd-wise (1 million or so plus TV), and to my
understanding the reason it went under was because the expenses of flying in all the teams. The
World Cup is hardly a World Cup and they just added a couple races (Wincanton) and called them
World Cups. Again, using the Formula 1 model which never used to be an issue here in Canada the
Montreal GP is well attended and viable (despite certain issues this year). I think if Verbruggen
would have supported a North American stop(s) for a few years the fans would have come. Instead we
remain a third rate cycling nation.

You are recommending the approach the UCI took with cyclocross. The 'Cross World Cup never traveled
but the opportunities for points certainly did. So in a sense they ran that experiment with a
different population.

The result was that rankings were skewed by participation and did not reflect actual performance.
And the US remains a third rate cyclocross nation. We are moving up the nations' rankings primarily
as a result of the skewed relationship between participation and points availability. We get
whatever results we get at Worlds due to the fact that the number of Belgians that are allowed to
enter is limited.

Bob Schwartz [email hidden]

B. Lafferty said:

A question. In the new premier division, how many of those races will be outside Europe? Perhaps
this hasn't been finalized yet.

Tour of Qatar should definitely be one, just to let some top riders shake hands with a podium boy.
And I bet they wouldn't complain about having to pay the teams' travel costs.

Ryan Cousineau <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

In article <[email hidden]>, DiabloScott

Quoted message said:

Any insight on why they're getting rid of the World Cup? It's coinciding with the first year of
the Pro Tour but I can't think of a reason not to have both. Hardly even been any mention that
this is the last year.

Because nobody even noticed the World Cup. It was all TdF, all the time.

The Pro Tour is an effort to force the hands of several groups: elite teams will have to compete
against each other in elite events a lot more often. The grand tours will be forced to invite all
the top teams.

It is hoped that all of this will force the teams to contest the Pro Tour events seriously, thus
leading to a serious world-cup-like series, with roughly equivalent events.

The Pro Tour is misguided but a step in the right direction. I would liked to have a point system
whereby a team would have to accumulate a min # of points to enter the TDF and other tours. In
order to balance things the points would depend upon points accumulated by individual riders as
well as the team.