Emphysema can be cured.....

In article <[email hidden]>,

Dave said:

I am a recovering dead guy. I have two incurable (by medical science)
conditions, emphysema and
congestive heart failure. I found an ancient herb that is restoring the
strength of my immune system
to a point where both of these conditions are slowly healing. To understand
my whole story please
read Dave's Story at http://www.glowlife.com/Dave'sStory.html . There is
hope!

Oh, look, Dave the Glowlife MLM dude is back, hawking his ginseng
"miracle cure."

What's up, "Dave"? Not too long ago you left m.h.a. in a huff because
not everyone welcomed your sales pitch or let you make your claims
unchallenged. You claimed that you were leaving this newsgroup and not
coming back. So what made you come back so soon after your dramatic (not
to mention whining) "departure"?

--
Orac |"A statement of fact cannot be insolent."
|
|"If you cannot listen to the answers, why do you
| inconvenience me with questions?"

Dave said:

I am a recovering dead guy. I have two incurable
(by medical science) conditions, emphysema and
congestive heart failure. I found an ancient herb
that is restoring the strength of my immune system
to a point where both of these conditions are slowly healing.

That makes no sense. The immune system is part of
the body's defense against bacteria and viruses.
Neither emphysema nor congestive heart failure
is caused by bacteria or viruses. This story only
makes sense when you know that "Dave" is a salesman
for the "herb" he touts. He will tell you any story
to get you to buy his [censored].

Quoted message said:

Subject: Emphysema can be cured.....
From: "Dave" [email hidden]
Date: 9/21/2003 10:11 AM Pacific Daylight Time
Message-id: <[email hidden]>

I am a recovering dead guy. I

he's back...

funny he fails to mention his 43 years of 2 pack a day smoking..that he stopped

the "herb" had nothing to do with it....

nor can "ginseng" restore the immune system

nor is emphysema or congestive heart failure conditions involving the immune
system

scammmm..he sells the stuff

hawki

"Orac" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

In article <[email hidden]>,

Dave said:

I am a recovering dead guy. I have two incurable (by medical science)
conditions, emphysema and
congestive heart failure. I found an ancient herb that is restoring the
strength of my immune system
to a point where both of these conditions are slowly healing. To

understand

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

my whole story please
read Dave's Story at http://www.glowlife.com/Dave'sStory.html . There

is

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

hope!

Oh, look, Dave the Glowlife MLM dude is back, hawking his ginseng
"miracle cure."

What's up, "Dave"? Not too long ago you left m.h.a. in a huff because
not everyone welcomed your sales pitch or let you make your claims
unchallenged. You claimed that you were leaving this newsgroup and not
coming back. So what made you come back so soon after your dramatic (not
to mention whining) "departure"?

I simply had to come back because there are a lot of people who have come to
see me
from here. Since my motivation is to help people, and the (I'll be kind)
sceptics here
aren't chasing them off, I'm here.

As for your rude comments, I'll take a page from your playbook and ignore
them. As for
challenging my claims.....try reading my website.

"Hawki63" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Subject: Emphysema can be cured.....
From: "Dave" [email hidden]
Date: 9/21/2003 10:11 AM Pacific Daylight Time
Message-id: <[email hidden]>

I am a recovering dead guy. I

he's back...

funny he fails to mention his 43 years of 2 pack a day smoking..that he

stopped

Quoted message said:

the "herb" had nothing to do with it....

What IS astounding is that you think that quitting smoking could cure
emphysema and congestive
heart failure and ginseng would have no effect. Obviously a highly credible
postion. I'm certain we
have all enjoyed your views.

Quoted message said:

nor can "ginseng" restore the immune system

Quoted message said:

nor is emphysema or congestive heart failure conditions involving the

immune

Quoted message said:

system

scammmm..he sells the stuff

hawki

In article <[email hidden]>,

Dave said:

"Orac" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

In article <[email hidden]>,

Dave said:

I am a recovering dead guy.

You made some typographical errors here, I think. A corrected version
would be:

"I am a spamming scumbag who continues to post commercial crud
to the no-advertising newsgroup misc.health.alternative. I am
a scammer. I have the morals of a sea slug. I would lie to
my own mother if it improved my downline."

Hope this helps.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Oh, look, Dave the Glowlife MLM dude is back, hawking his ginseng
"miracle cure."

What's up, "Dave"? Not too long ago you left m.h.a. in a huff because
not everyone welcomed your sales pitch or let you make your claims
unchallenged. You claimed that you were leaving this newsgroup and not
coming back. So what made you come back so soon after your dramatic (not
to mention whining) "departure"?

Quoted message said:

I simply had to come back because there are a lot of people who have
come to see me from here. Since my motivation is to help people,

And make money. How selflessly inspirational.

Quoted message said:

and the (I'll be kind) sceptics here aren't chasing them off, I'm here.

As for your rude comments, I'll take a page from your playbook and ignore
them. As for challenging my claims.....try reading my website.

We've already seen your claims, like emphysema and CHF having to do
with the immune system. In addition to being a spammer, they
establish you as an idiot. So?

-- David Wright :: alphabeta at prodigy.net
These are my opinions only, but they're almost always correct.
"If I have not seen as far as others, it is because giants
were standing on my shoulders." (Hal Abelson, MIT)

--

"Dave" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I am a recovering dead guy. I have two incurable (by medical science)
conditions, emphysema and
congestive heart failure. I found an ancient herb that is restoring the
strength of my immune system
to a point where both of these conditions are slowly healing. To

understand

Quoted message said:

my whole story please
read Dave's Story at http://www.glowlife.com/Dave'sStory.html . There is
hope!

Emphysema is the result of irreparable damage to the lungs. It is not caused
by a failure of the immune system, and the immune system, no matter how
healthy, is not going to cure it. Nor is the immune system going to
strengthen that big, floppy, weak heart of congestive heart failure. You
don't know jack about the immune system. Go sell your MLM [censored] elsewhere,
spammer, and quit talking pseudoscience here until you can come up with
something more credible.

--Rich

"David Wright" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

In article <[email hidden]>,

Dave said:

"Orac" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

In article <[email hidden]>,
"Dave" <[email hidden]> wrote:

> I am a recovering dead guy.

You made some typographical errors here, I think. A corrected version
would be:

"I am a spamming scumbag who continues to post commercial crud
to the no-advertising newsgroup misc.health.alternative. I am
a scammer. I have the morals of a sea slug. I would lie to
my own mother if it improved my downline."

Hope this helps.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Oh, look, Dave the Glowlife MLM dude is back, hawking his ginseng
"miracle cure."

What's up, "Dave"? Not too long ago you left m.h.a. in a huff because
not everyone welcomed your sales pitch or let you make your claims
unchallenged. You claimed that you were leaving this newsgroup and not
coming back. So what made you come back so soon after your dramatic

(not

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

to mention whining) "departure"?

Quoted message said:

I simply had to come back because there are a lot of people who have
come to see me from here. Since my motivation is to help people,

And make money. How selflessly inspirational.

Quoted message said:

and the (I'll be kind) sceptics here aren't chasing them off, I'm here.

As for your rude comments, I'll take a page from your playbook and ignore
them. As for challenging my claims.....try reading my website.

We've already seen your claims, like emphysema and CHF having to do
with the immune system. In addition to being a spammer, they
establish you as an idiot. So?

I remember you now, you don't believe in the law of gravity either.

"Dave" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"David Wright" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

In article <[email hidden]>,

Dave said:

"Orac" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...
> In article <[email hidden]>,
> "Dave" <[email hidden]> wrote:
>
> > I am a recovering dead guy.

You made some typographical errors here, I think. A corrected version
would be:

"I am a spamming scumbag who continues to post commercial crud
to the no-advertising newsgroup misc.health.alternative. I am
a scammer. I have the morals of a sea slug. I would lie to
my own mother if it improved my downline."

Hope this helps.

Quoted message said:

> Oh, look, Dave the Glowlife MLM dude is back, hawking his ginseng
> "miracle cure."
>
> What's up, "Dave"? Not too long ago you left m.h.a. in a huff because
> not everyone welcomed your sales pitch or let you make your claims
> unchallenged. You claimed that you were leaving this newsgroup and

not

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> coming back. So what made you come back so soon after your dramatic

(not

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> to mention whining) "departure"?

Quoted message said:

I simply had to come back because there are a lot of people who have
come to see me from here. Since my motivation is to help people,

And make money. How selflessly inspirational.

Quoted message said:

and the (I'll be kind) sceptics here aren't chasing them off, I'm here.

As for your rude comments, I'll take a page from your playbook and

ignore

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

them. As for challenging my claims.....try reading my website.

We've already seen your claims, like emphysema and CHF having to do
with the immune system. In addition to being a spammer, they
establish you as an idiot. So?

I remember you now, you don't believe in the law of gravity either.

Ok. Ok. I admit it. The real reason thaty I came back is because I missed
you guys. ) - :
You are a group of inspirational people who lift my spirits and give me hope
that I can't find elsewhere. ( - :

Quoted message said:

I am a recovering dead guy.

No, you are souless reprobate.

Quoted message said:

I have two incurable (by medical science)

Yes, total [censored] headedness and a hatered for the truth.

Quoted message said:

conditions, emphysema and
congestive heart failure. I found an ancient herb that is

being marked up several times and sold to the ignorant as a cure-all.

Quoted message said:

restoring the
strength of my immune system

Is irrelevant to most every condition that Dave recommends his product for.

Quoted message said:

to a point where both of these conditions are slowly healing. To understand
my whole story please

understand that Dave is a pathological liar and has created a sock puppet named
"Teacher".

Quoted message said:

read Dave's Story at http://www.lowlife.com/SpammingDave'sGrift-o-Rama.html .

There is

Quoted message said:

dope!

[email hidden] (Hawki63) wrote in
news:[email hidden]:

Quoted message said:

he's back...

He's never been gone. He was posting as "Teacher" after he "left."

Quoted message said:

nor can "ginseng" restore the immune system

nor is emphysema or congestive heart failure conditions involving the
immune system

Snake-oil peddlers use "immune system" to mean "life force." It's just
vitalism dressed up with impressive-sounding language.

"Ilsa9" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I am a recovering dead guy.

No, you are souless reprobate.

Quoted message said:

I have two incurable (by medical science)

Yes, total [censored] headedness and a hatered for the truth.

Quoted message said:

conditions, emphysema and
congestive heart failure. I found an ancient herb that is

being marked up several times and sold to the ignorant as a cure-all.

Quoted message said:

restoring the
strength of my immune system

Is irrelevant to most every condition that Dave recommends his product

for.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

to a point where both of these conditions are slowly healing. To

understand

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

my whole story please

understand that Dave is a pathological liar and has created a sock puppet

named

Quoted message said:

"Teacher".

Quoted message said:

read Dave's Story at

http://www.lowlife.com/SpammingDave'sGrift-o-Rama.html .

Quoted message said:

There is

Quoted message said:

dope!

Ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, you guys are such kidders. Ha, ha, ha.

In article <[email hidden]>,

Dave said:

"Orac" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

In article <[email hidden]>,
"Dave" <[email hidden]> wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I am a recovering dead guy. I have two incurable (by medical science)
conditions, emphysema and
congestive heart failure. I found an ancient herb that is restoring the
strength of my immune system
to a point where both of these conditions are slowly healing. To

understand

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

my whole story please
read Dave's Story at http://www.glowlife.com/Dave'sStory.html . There

is

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

hope!

Oh, look, Dave the Glowlife MLM dude is back, hawking his ginseng
"miracle cure."

What's up, "Dave"? Not too long ago you left m.h.a. in a huff because
not everyone welcomed your sales pitch or let you make your claims
unchallenged. You claimed that you were leaving this newsgroup and not
coming back. So what made you come back so soon after your dramatic (not
to mention whining) "departure"?

I simply had to come back because there are a lot of people who have
come to see me from here.

In other words, you were getting business from this newsgroup and missed
the extra bucks when you left.

Quoted message said:

Since my motivation is to help people, and
the (I'll be kind) sceptics here aren't chasing them off, I'm here.

You're here to make money, that is.

Quoted message said:

As for your rude comments, I'll take a page from your playbook and ignore
them. As for
challenging my claims.....try reading my website.

Been there, done that.

Besides, challenging your claims is no challenge at all, given that you
can't produce even halfway decent level 4 evidence (much less the
superior level 1 evidence) to support the efficacy of your product.
Heck, you can't even produce halfway convincing anecdotal evidence.

--
Orac |"A statement of fact cannot be insolent."
|
|"If you cannot listen to the answers, why do you
| inconvenience me with questions?"

In article <[email hidden]>,

(Hawki63) said:

Quoted message said:

Subject: Emphysema can be cured.....
From: "Dave" [email hidden]
Date: 9/21/2003 10:11 AM Pacific Daylight Time
Message-id: <[email hidden]>

I am a recovering dead guy. I

he's back...

funny he fails to mention his 43 years of 2 pack a day smoking..that he
stopped

Well, in all fairness, he does mention his smoking and his quitting in
his "inspirational" story. However, it doesn't seem to occur to him that
his stopping smoking, getting some mild exercise, and eating a better
diet probably did far more for his COPD than his ginseng. However, his
naturopathic practitioner was more than happy to take the credit for his
improvement and attribute it to ginseng, of course.

[Snip]

--
Orac |"A statement of fact cannot be insolent."
|
|"If you cannot listen to the answers, why do you
| inconvenience me with questions?"

In article <[email hidden]>,

Eric Bohlman said:

[email hidden] (Hawki63) wrote in
news:[email hidden]:

Quoted message said:

he's back...

He's never been gone. He was posting as "Teacher" after he "left."

I sort of suspected that might be him, but wasn't sure.

--
Orac |"A statement of fact cannot be insolent."
|
|"If you cannot listen to the answers, why do you
| inconvenience me with questions?"

In article <[email hidden]>,

Dave said:

"Hawki63" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Subject: Emphysema can be cured.....
From: "Dave" [email hidden]
Date: 9/21/2003 10:11 AM Pacific Daylight Time
Message-id: <[email hidden]>

I am a recovering dead guy. I

he's back...

funny he fails to mention his 43 years of 2 pack a day smoking..that he

stopped

Quoted message said:

the "herb" had nothing to do with it....

What IS astounding is that you think that quitting smoking could cure
emphysema and congestive
heart failure

Well, actually, quitting smoking wouldn't "cure" emphysema (COPD) and
CHF, but it sure as hell would improve it, especially the COPD. It
wouldn't improve things to what they would be if you had never smoked at
all, but quitting smoking would certainly improve things noticeably. And
since the improvement in COPD and CHF are usually not immediate, it's
very easy for you to attribute the improvement to something other than
your quitting smoking.

Quoted message said:

and ginseng would have no effect.

It may or may not. You have presented no evidence that it does. Indeed,
I presented more evidence that it might have an effect that you ever did
when I found one article by an Israeli group in which they found a mild
to moderate improvement in COPD from the use of ginseng. Of course, that
was only one article and in an obscure journal that I don't have access
to in order to evaluate the entirety of the article and its science, but
it's one more scientific article than you've ever cited.

Quoted message said:

Obviously a highly credible
postion. I'm certain we have all enjoyed your views.

Oh, no. It is your views that give me great amusement.

--
Orac |"A statement of fact cannot be insolent."
|
|"If you cannot listen to the answers, why do you
| inconvenience me with questions?"

"Orac" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

In article <[email hidden]>,

Dave said:

"Hawki63" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

>Subject: Emphysema can be cured.....
>From: "Dave" [email hidden]
>Date: 9/21/2003 10:11 AM Pacific Daylight Time
>Message-id: <[email hidden]>
>
>I am a recovering dead guy. I

he's back...

funny he fails to mention his 43 years of 2 pack a day smoking..that

he

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

stopped

Quoted message said:

the "herb" had nothing to do with it....

What IS astounding is that you think that quitting smoking could cure
emphysema and congestive
heart failure

Well, actually, quitting smoking wouldn't "cure" emphysema (COPD) and
CHF, but it sure as hell would improve it, especially the COPD. It
wouldn't improve things to what they would be if you had never smoked at
all, but quitting smoking would certainly improve things noticeably. And
since the improvement in COPD and CHF are usually not immediate, it's
very easy for you to attribute the improvement to something other than
your quitting smoking.

Quoted message said:

and ginseng would have no effect.

It may or may not. You have presented no evidence that it does. Indeed,
I presented more evidence that it might have an effect that you ever did
when I found one article by an Israeli group in which they found a mild
to moderate improvement in COPD from the use of ginseng. Of course, that
was only one article and in an obscure journal that I don't have access
to in order to evaluate the entirety of the article and its science, but
it's one more scientific article than you've ever cited.

Quoted message said:

Obviously a highly credible
postion. I'm certain we have all enjoyed your views.

Oh, no. It is your views that give me great amusement.

The thing here is that ginseng has been in use for about 5000 years and
there are numerous
research institutes in Asian countries, Europe and Japan that have done 3000
published reports
in recent years. There are one billion people who found enough understanding
to want to eat
ginseng and it doesn't concern me that you don't think it is for you. I'm
very comfortable with
that. So, my best advice to you is, carry on as before.

In article <[email hidden]>,

Rich Shewmaker said:

--

"Dave" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I am a recovering dead guy. I have two incurable (by medical science)
conditions, emphysema and
congestive heart failure. I found an ancient herb that is restoring the
strength of my immune system
to a point where both of these conditions are slowly healing. To

understand

Quoted message said:

my whole story please
read Dave's Story at http://www.glowlife.com/Dave'sStory.html . There is
hope!

Emphysema is the result of irreparable damage to the lungs. It is not caused
by a failure of the immune system, and the immune system, no matter how
healthy, is not going to cure it.

And, of course, in even long-time smokers who quit, stopping the ongoing
smoke-induced damage and inflammation to the airways and bronchi can
often give the lungs a chance to partially repair the damage from
smoking, unhindered by ongoing damage caused by continued smoking. This
is why there can be significant improvement in COPD after smoking
cessation and the beginning of a mild exercise regimen.

Quoted message said:

Nor is the immune system going to
strengthen that big, floppy, weak heart of congestive heart failure.

On the other hand, eliminating the nicotine-induced constriction of the
coronary arteries that occurs each and every time a cigarette is smoked
can let that big floppy weak heart actually get enough oxygen delivered
to it to let its remaining functional muscle contract to its maximal
potential, thus resulting in symptomatic improvement of the congestive
heart failure.

[Snip]

--
Orac |"A statement of fact cannot be insolent."
|
|"If you cannot listen to the answers, why do you
| inconvenience me with questions?"

In article <[email hidden]>,

Dave said:

"Orac" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

In article <[email hidden]>,
"Dave" <[email hidden]> wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

and ginseng would have no effect.

It may or may not. You have presented no evidence that it does. Indeed,
I presented more evidence that it might have an effect that you ever did
when I found one article by an Israeli group in which they found a mild
to moderate improvement in COPD from the use of ginseng. Of course, that
was only one article and in an obscure journal that I don't have access
to in order to evaluate the entirety of the article and its science, but
it's one more scientific article than you've ever cited.

Quoted message said:

Obviously a highly credible
postion. I'm certain we have all enjoyed your views.

Oh, no. It is your views that give me great amusement.

The thing here is that ginseng has been in use for about 5000 years
and there are numerous research institutes in Asian countries, Europe
and Japan that have done 3000 published reports in recent years.

Really? 3000 published reports?

Just typing the word "ginseng" into PubMed, I was only able to come up
with 1700 over nearlyt 40 years, many of them conflicting, many of them
more concerned with investigating the interaction between various herbs
and conventional drugs, and many of them editorials. I was only able to
come up with ONE non-editorial scientific report on ginseng and COPD,
and it was in a journal I'd never heard of before, although it appeared
to be by an Israeli group. I could only find a couple of Chinese
articles about ginseng and heart failure.

Perhaps you could list a few of these reports that supposedly show
ginseng works for COPD and congestive heart failure. I haven't been able
to find them.

Quoted message said:

There are one billion people who found enough understanding to want
to eat ginseng and it doesn't concern me that you don't think it is
for you.

In other words: My mind's made up. Don't bother me with evidence (or
lack thereof).

And before you accuse me of the same, let me just point out that I
actually did more work looking for objective scientific evidence that
ginseng might help COPD and congestive heart failure than YOU ever did.
That's haredly the mark of a closed mind.

Quoted message said:

I'm very comfortable with that. So, my best advice to you
is, carry on as before.

Oh, I intend to. And, to me, "carrying on as before" means making sure
you and others like you don't make claims you can't back up without
being challenged on them.

--
Orac |"A statement of fact cannot be insolent."
|
|"If you cannot listen to the answers, why do you
| inconvenience me with questions?"