elevated heel

On 25 Nov 2005 13:54:30 -0800, "Woodsman" <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Walking shoes and nike air type shoes

No, Nikes are poor. Buy a REAL shoe and your prioblems will
"mysteriously dissapear".

"Woodsman" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

It seems obvious that a shoe with an elevated heel is poor.

It seems that since the majority of all functional shoes made in the
last millenium have an elevated heel of some sort, I deserve a better
justification than "It seems obvious".

Dave

David Geesaman said:

"Woodsman" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

It seems obvious that a shoe with an elevated heel is poor.

It seems that since the majority of all functional shoes made in the
last millenium have an elevated heel of some sort, I deserve a better
justification than "It seems obvious".

Dave

My personal shoe preference now is Converse All Stars. Back to the
point, shoes with elevated heels caused me pain on the ball of my foot
near the toe. Thinking back in time, I noticed that after walks in
these types of shoes, my feet would have a burning sensation.

There is a large amount of people who have morton's neuroma, which you
may know is pain centered near the toe on the ball of the foot. Shoes
with an elevated heel, just while standing place more pressure on the
front of the foot than in a neutral heel shoe.

If you think about when you take a step in a shoe with an elevated
heel, you are not really engaging the forces of the foot to lift
yourself by the ball of the foot from a flat plane like in barefoot
walking. You are rolling the front of the foot at a quick rate, and
you are unnaturally streching the tendons and bones in that area. When
you run in running shoes, you are practically jumping. This engages
the toes and the ball of the foot. If you think you can jump for 30
minutes at a time for several years in a row without injury, you are
probably lucky. Those cross trainer shoes where you walk by rolling
your foot at a fast rate are horrible. They very quickly force your
foot to roll, and this jerks the bones in that area at an unnatural
speed, while extra weight is being added to that part of the foot for
an extended period of time.

If this doesn't convince you consider this picture. Walk barefoot with
your heels above the ground the entire time. It's practically
inefficient, but notice the weight on the balls of your feet. That's
an overexaggeration, but an extra proportion of weight is there when
you walk in elevated heels. Secondly, when your walking like this,
the weight is not pushing down on the entire ball of the foot. Rather,
it is pushing at the front of the foot at a point where the toes are
slight flexed practically the entire time, and the weight is being
pushed on the flexed joint.

The reason people have used shoes with an elevated heel for a millenia
is this. In a flat shoe, walking on concrete or other hard surfaces,
if the shoe is not cushioned, you will be pounding your heel on the
ground causing pain. Secondly, if you have a cushioned shoe that is
flat, but the cushioning is not stiff ie when you stand your foot
starts to spread out, this stretches the muscle that runs from the heel
to the front of your foot, thus causing exruciating arch pain.
All-Star Cons are a stiff supportive shoe that is flat and has
cushioning, which enables you to walk on concrete without pain,
hopefully.

Indians wore moccasins in the woods with no heel obviously. You can
walk barefoot without any sort of foot pain for hourse in the woods
because the forest floor is covered with leaves or pine straw.
Concrete is extremely hard and requires shoes that can deal with thath.

"Woodsman" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

David Geesaman said:

"Woodsman" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

It seems obvious that a shoe with an elevated heel is poor.

It seems that since the majority of all functional shoes made in the
last millenium have an elevated heel of some sort, I deserve a better
justification than "It seems obvious".

Dave

Quoted message said:

There is a large amount of people who have morton's neuroma, which you
may know is pain centered near the toe on the ball of the foot. Shoes
with an elevated heel, just while standing place more pressure on the
front of the foot than in a neutral heel shoe.

If pressure is what causes Morton's Neuroma pain, then you should try an
full-length orthotic with a thin section under the tender joint.

Quoted message said:

If you think about when you take a step in a shoe with an elevated
heel, you are not really engaging the forces of the foot to lift
yourself by the ball of the foot from a flat plane like in barefoot
walking. You are rolling the front of the foot at a quick rate, and
you are unnaturally streching the tendons and bones in that area.

I have found this to be true if your form is not good. The ankle and
toes should not be very active. What you're describing happens mostly when
you're overstriding, which prevents you from maintaining proper ankle
dorsiflexion through the foot recovery and strike.

Quoted message said:

When
you run in running shoes, you are practically jumping. This engages
the toes and the ball of the foot.

Yet another visual that suggests the problem lies in overstriding. No
shoe that I know of is really compatible with overstriding. But I can't
watch you run to verify any of this - I am limited by textual communication.

Dave

"Woodsman" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

Quoted message said:

All-Star Cons are a stiff supportive shoe that is flat and has
cushioning, which enables you to walk on concrete without pain,
hopefully.

I wear chucks, as they call 'em. They are a nice, comfy
shoe but to seriously run in them they would require more
forefoot cushioning.

cheers,
--
David Hirsh, director
www.absolutelyaccurate.com
Southern Ontario's Summer Race Series!

On 7 Dec 2005 10:35:43 -0800, "Woodsman" <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Back to the
point, shoes with elevated heels caused me pain on the ball of my foot
near the toe. Thinking back in time, I noticed that after walks in
these types of shoes, my feet would have a burning sensation.

Well those saturday nights spent in strange bars can be tough on your
feet, high heels or not.

On 7 Dec 2005 10:45:42 -0800, "Woodsman" <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

The reason people have used shoes with an elevated heel for a millenia
is this......

.....they go well with your red purse.

David Geesaman said:

"Woodsman" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

David Geesaman said:

"Woodsman" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...
> It seems obvious that a shoe with an elevated heel is poor.

It seems that since the majority of all functional shoes made in the
last millenium have an elevated heel of some sort, I deserve a better
justification than "It seems obvious".

Dave

Quoted message said:

There is a large amount of people who have morton's neuroma, which you
may know is pain centered near the toe on the ball of the foot. Shoes
with an elevated heel, just while standing place more pressure on the
front of the foot than in a neutral heel shoe.

If pressure is what causes Morton's Neuroma pain, then you should try an
full-length orthotic with a thin section under the tender joint.

I'm just guessing what that does. Does it lift that joint back to its
original unflexed position? When you stand in a heeled shoe, you are
just standing there flexing most of the joints of the toes. Neutral
heeled shoes take away that problem.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

If you think about when you take a step in a shoe with an elevated
heel, you are not really engaging the forces of the foot to lift
yourself by the ball of the foot from a flat plane like in barefoot
walking. You are rolling the front of the foot at a quick rate, and
you are unnaturally streching the tendons and bones in that area.

I have found this to be true if your form is not good. The ankle and
toes should not be very active. What you're describing happens mostly when
you're overstriding, which prevents you from maintaining proper ankle
dorsiflexion through the foot recovery and strike.

This still does not take away from the fact that in a heeled running
shoe, you are putting additional, unnatural forces on the front of the
foot. Even when you run barefoot, you are doing a little bit of
jumping, except you're not landing and striding in an unnatural form.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

When
you run in running shoes, you are practically jumping. This engages
the toes and the ball of the foot.

Yet another visual that suggests the problem lies in overstriding. No
shoe that I know of is really compatible with overstriding. But I can't
watch you run to verify any of this - I am limited by textual communication.

Dave

"David Geesaman" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

Quoted message said:

If pressure is what causes Morton's Neuroma pain, then you should try
an full-length orthotic with a thin section under the tender joint.

I have worn these since my own neuroma in 2002.

Just for anyone else who wants to know (I'm sure Dave does):
There's a round section of height-adding foam placed under the
metatarsals, so when I strike the ground, they don't compress
together. That's what causes the neuroma, which is a irritated
nerve bundle between the metatarsals that's getting pinched.

Think of it like your hand over a computer mouse. If someone
compressed a bunch of weight on it over and over again, the
mouse would protect the same web-like thin bone structure
you have on the back of your hand, maintaining the integrity of
the 'dome'. The orthotics, when made properly, solve this with
remarkable speed. I suffered for months, then it was like a one
week cure. The pain evaporated more every day once I had
them in.

I think forefoot strikers are more likely to develop neuromas.
In non-runners, they are far more common in women, resulting
from high-heeled shoes which compress the toes and add more
pressure and load-bearing to the area than is normal.

cheers,
--
David Hirsh, director
www.absolutelyaccurate.com
Southern Ontario's Summer Race Series!

SwStudio said:

"David Geesaman" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

Quoted message said:

If pressure is what causes Morton's Neuroma pain, then you should try
an full-length orthotic with a thin section under the tender joint.

I have worn these since my own neuroma in 2002.

Just for anyone else who wants to know (I'm sure Dave does):
There's a round section of height-adding foam placed under the
metatarsals, so when I strike the ground, they don't compress
together. That's what causes the neuroma, which is a irritated
nerve bundle between the metatarsals that's getting pinched.

Think of it like your hand over a computer mouse. If someone
compressed a bunch of weight on it over and over again, the
mouse would protect the same web-like thin bone structure
you have on the back of your hand, maintaining the integrity of
the 'dome'. The orthotics, when made properly, solve this with
remarkable speed. I suffered for months, then it was like a one
week cure. The pain evaporated more every day once I had
them in.

I think forefoot strikers are more likely to develop neuromas.
In non-runners, they are far more common in women, resulting

When I run barefoot in the woods or on grass, I run with a quick step,
and I land slightly on my heel (I don't have my foot angled up much),
rotate the weight to my entire foot, use the entire foot to propel me
forward, and then rotate off the front of my foot without much weight
bearing. What I don't do is land on my forefoot, rotate my heel down,
etc. If people run in heeled shoes and land on their forefoot, their
foot is already angled to the ground, forcing you to land on your
forefoot, and the force is directed in that forefoot on flexed joints
ie your toes are already pointed up.

Quoted message said:

from high-heeled shoes which compress the toes and add more
pressure and load-bearing to the area than is normal.

cheers,
--
David Hirsh, director
www.absolutelyaccurate.com
Southern Ontario's Summer Race Series!

SwStudio said:

"David Geesaman" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

Quoted message said:

If pressure is what causes Morton's Neuroma pain, then you should try
an full-length orthotic with a thin section under the tender joint.

I have worn these since my own neuroma in 2002.

Even an idiot could cut a piece out of a Dr Scholl's footpad, and do
that. You paid $400.00

"Woodsman" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

This still does not take away from the fact that in a heeled running
shoe, you are putting additional, unnatural forces on the front of the
foot. Even when you run barefoot, you are doing a little bit of
jumping, except you're not landing and striding in an unnatural form.

Make up your mind. You're not going to float on air - so decide if you
want the weight carried on the heel, midfoot, or toes. If bending the toes
due to the heel being 5/8" higher than the ball of the foot is so unnatural,
explain what to do when running uphill, or why the shoes evolved into
something other than a flat piece of tire tread. My take is that elevated
heels, combined with a shortened stride, reduce the braking action of each
footstrike and contribute to forward roll. There are millions of logged
running miles on these 'elevated heel' shoes that say it's more than
acceptable for the masses.
If you want to be a renegade and swear by strips of radial tire or tree
bark, be my guest. In fact, buy a pair of nice rock climbing shoes -
they're stiff and the heels have negative 'elevation'. But clearly you
don't grasp the concepts well enough to justify anything to the rest of us.

Dave

"SwStudio" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"David Geesaman" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

Quoted message said:

If pressure is what causes Morton's Neuroma pain, then you should try
an full-length orthotic with a thin section under the tender joint.

I have worn these since my own neuroma in 2002.

Just for anyone else who wants to know (I'm sure Dave does):
There's a round section of height-adding foam placed under the
metatarsals, so when I strike the ground, they don't compress
together. That's what causes the neuroma, which is a irritated
nerve bundle between the metatarsals that's getting pinched.

Ah, I see, it's not a direct impact injury. I don't have Morton's, but
my orthotics correct a forefoot problem in the opposite way - but the
fundamental is the same - use a variation in material to distribute joint
forces differently. It has little to do with the height of the heels.

Dave