Electrolyte Replacement

I guess we are going to have to call Frank Shorter and ask for his
medals back, his favorite race drink was defizzed coke.

Dot dot.h@#duh?att.net said:

Tom Phillips said:

Don't know but it doesn't take much caffeine to have
soem physiological effects. A single mountain dew would
do it for most people whether they're aware of it or not.

It'll almost make me barf. I may be unfair in that statement. I had one
once while driving with no problems. I had a 2nd maybe a month later,
and I felt ill that night and next day. It might have been something
else, but that was one of about 3 things that was different that day. I
figure if I can't handle something driving, I shouldn't try it running.
Besides, what happens to pop in a camelbak? I think I need to be sure
it's thoroughly defizzed.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Since I don't drink coffee, I rarely remember to pack it in the
community food boxes for field trips. I've had caffeine addicts on some
of my trips to the boonies. Not pretty.

Forced detox is never a pretty sight 🙂

The next year *they* bought the food. Drinks were all alcoholic (I think
I'm allergic). No juices (pre-sports drinks knowledge for me) at all for
long hot days in the sun. Fortunately, I had some powdered drinks to mix
with the pump water.

In self defense, I didn't follow up with future studies with those
collaborators 😉

Dot

The 2005 WADA Prohibited List specifically states that caffeine is NOT
considered as a Prohibited Substance (page 6). So if the powers that be
don't think of it as performance enhancer why should Pam Reed?

Tom Phillips said:

Dot said:

frank-in-toronto said:

With the publicity that ultra-running has been getting
i've been reading a bit more. Pam Reed claimed
to be drinking ensure, gatorade and something else i forget
right now.

She's used Red Bull in the past at Badwater, not sure about her 300-mi
effort. I would think the caffeine in there might help.

Which reminds me to some degree of steriod enhanced homeruns.
So, are these ultra ultras differentiated between stimulant
and nonstimulant enhanced records? I mean, isn't the whole
point to test/prove the limits of human endurance? Including
sleep deprivation? Seriously, caffeine being a drug (for which
one can develop an addiction), not a component of essential
hydration, I naturally have to wonder...

Quoted message said:

Dean Karnozes used Pedialyte on longer

Quoted message said:

than 100 miles. now, i'm just a beginner, but mostly
i've seen people putting down gatorade and i've
NEVER heard of anyone mentioning Pedialyte!

There's a *lot* of products out there that are used, and they don't have
to be specially formulated for endurance events (pedialyte is "the #1
pediatrician recommended solution to prevent dehydration due to diarrhea
or vomiting. Pedialyte is specially formulated for infants and children
to quickly replace lost fluid."😉.

Read different forums and you'll see many more products than mentioned
here. I regularly read 3 different running groups and occasionally a
couple others. About the only things in common among those is the
Dean-Pam media blitz and conducting your own experiment of one for most
things.

Likely Red Bull/Pedialyte endorsement contracts are
in the works.

Tom Phillips said:

Doug won't be happy but the site lists caffeine
amongst a long index of psychoactive chemicals:
alcohol, amphetamines, cocaine, LSD, mescaline,
methamphetamines, etc. Oh yeah, also chocolate 🙂

Nah, chocolate's one of the basic food groups, right along with ice cream 🙂

Quoted message said:

"Erowid is a member-supported organization providing
access to reliable, non-judgmental information about
psychoactive plants and chemicals and related issues.
We work with academic, medical, and experiential experts
to develop and publish new resources, as well as to
improve and increase access to already existing resources.
We also strive to ensure that these resources are
maintained and preserved as a historical record for the
future."

THanks. I'll have to look at that when I get a chance. Actually, I'm
more interested in medicinal, nutraceutical, or nutritional uses of
native plants (esp. berries) in Alaska, but sometimes there's overlap.

Dot

--
"Do or do not. There is no try." -Yoda

Tom Phillips wrote in message <[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

snip<

Sounds like a typical hunting party here. I've
seen 'em haul in a case of beer, get hypoxia and
not be able to drink it, then of course they
couldn't carry it out and leave it for locals.
They're chronically dehydrated to begin with
anyway so never know the difference until AMS
sets in.

Reminds me of the time I took a 12-pack on a 24 hour orienteering event. The
Frozen 2 liter bottle and closed-cell sleeping pad lining my pack even kept
them cold except for the last 2. It's fun trying to do map and compass
navigation sustained on beer 🙂 I actually did pretty good until I downed 4
while my racing partner was sleeping for a while at dawn. Finding the next
checkpoint after that was interesting.

-Tony

After sending my post to you about WADA and caffeine last night I was
reading Running Times (latest issue I think-great way to put yourself to
sleep) and they had an interesting article about what causes "the wall".
Caffeine was mentioned as possibly having the ability to "block" signals
from the muscles that they are maxed out, keeping the brain from
initiating the shut down sequence.

If this is the case then there is certainly a stronger case for
declaring caffeine as a performance enhancer.

Tom Phillips said:

Dot said:

Tom Phillips said:

From http://www.erowid.org/chemicals/caffeine/caffeine_faq.shtml

snip...

Quoted message said:

Geez, I just went to look at the web page and Norton's blocked it
(Drugs/ non-medical) 😉 Must really be something in that caffeine.

Your blocker is right, it contains info on nonmedical
drugs 🙂 Just one of many search hits, they seemed a
more comprehensive source than the medlibraries. Aas far
I know they only provide information ;^)

Quoted message said:

Guess I gotta change that setting.

Doug won't be happy but the site lists caffeine
amongst a long index of psychoactive chemicals:
alcohol, amphetamines, cocaine, LSD, mescaline,
methamphetamines, etc. Oh yeah, also chocolate 🙂

"Erowid is a member-supported organization providing
access to reliable, non-judgmental information about
psychoactive plants and chemicals and related issues.
We work with academic, medical, and experiential experts
to develop and publish new resources, as well as to
improve and increase access to already existing resources.
We also strive to ensure that these resources are
maintained and preserved as a historical record for the
future."

Bumper said:

The 2005 WADA Prohibited List specifically states that caffeine is NOT
considered as a Prohibited Substance (page 6). So if the powers that be
don't think of it as performance enhancer why should Pam Reed?

So, if Baseball management doesn't specifically ban
steroids, why should Mark McGywer consider it cheating?
Fact: caffeine is a stimulant. Ain't nothing knew about
that. Course it's also an addictive substance, so regular
caffeine users also build up a tolerance.

if it were uses as a performance enhancing substance,
it likely would depend on the amount ingested and how
often. IMO if Reed used it liberally to stay awake (seems
a major criteria for her run...) I'd consider the endurance
part of that effort invalid. It ain't "endurance" if you
relied on a drug to keep you awake.

Quoted message said:

Tom Phillips said:

Dot said:

frank-in-toronto wrote:
> With the publicity that ultra-running has been getting
> i've been reading a bit more. Pam Reed claimed
> to be drinking ensure, gatorade and something else i forget
> right now.

She's used Red Bull in the past at Badwater, not sure about her 300-mi
effort. I would think the caffeine in there might help.

Which reminds me to some degree of steriod enhanced homeruns.
So, are these ultra ultras differentiated between stimulant
and nonstimulant enhanced records? I mean, isn't the whole
point to test/prove the limits of human endurance? Including
sleep deprivation? Seriously, caffeine being a drug (for which
one can develop an addiction), not a component of essential
hydration, I naturally have to wonder...

Quoted message said:

Dean Karnozes used Pedialyte on longer
> than 100 miles. now, i'm just a beginner, but mostly
> i've seen people putting down gatorade and i've
> NEVER heard of anyone mentioning Pedialyte!

There's a *lot* of products out there that are used, and they don't have
to be specially formulated for endurance events (pedialyte is "the #1
pediatrician recommended solution to prevent dehydration due to diarrhea
or vomiting. Pedialyte is specially formulated for infants and children
to quickly replace lost fluid."😉.

Read different forums and you'll see many more products than mentioned
here. I regularly read 3 different running groups and occasionally a
couple others. About the only things in common among those is the
Dean-Pam media blitz and conducting your own experiment of one for most
things.

Likely Red Bull/Pedialyte endorsement contracts are
in the works.

Bumper said:

After sending my post to you about WADA and caffeine last night I was
reading Running Times (latest issue I think-great way to put yourself to
sleep) and they had an interesting article about what causes "the wall".
Caffeine was mentioned as possibly having the ability to "block" signals
from the muscles that they are maxed out, keeping the brain from
initiating the shut down sequence.

Interesting. In the drug/medical stuff I've been reading
it notes caffeine "relaxes smooth" muscles. I wasn't
sure what this meant as relates to physical performance
but maybe the two are related.

Quoted message said:

If this is the case then there is certainly a stronger case for
declaring caffeine as a performance enhancer.

Well as I said in my other reply, it _is_ a drug and
medically classed as such. I think Dot noted there
are some limits established for some races as to the
amount of caffeine that can be ingested during an event.

Quoted message said:

Tom Phillips said:

Dot said:

Tom Phillips wrote:

> From http://www.erowid.org/chemicals/caffeine/caffeine_faq.shtml

snip...

Quoted message said:

Geez, I just went to look at the web page and Norton's blocked it
(Drugs/ non-medical) 😉 Must really be something in that caffeine.

Your blocker is right, it contains info on nonmedical
drugs 🙂 Just one of many search hits, they seemed a
more comprehensive source than the medlibraries. Aas far
I know they only provide information ;^)

Quoted message said:

Guess I gotta change that setting.

Doug won't be happy but the site lists caffeine
amongst a long index of psychoactive chemicals:
alcohol, amphetamines, cocaine, LSD, mescaline,
methamphetamines, etc. Oh yeah, also chocolate 🙂

"Erowid is a member-supported organization providing
access to reliable, non-judgmental information about
psychoactive plants and chemicals and related issues.
We work with academic, medical, and experiential experts
to develop and publish new resources, as well as to
improve and increase access to already existing resources.
We also strive to ensure that these resources are
maintained and preserved as a historical record for the
future."

Re: Mark McGuire doesn't consider it cheating, but that a whole 'nother
story.

WADA is the agency that establishes the rules for the olympics and
international competition. They freely admit that everything they do is
a work in progress. Apparently caffeine was on their "monitor" list
last year, but has been taken off this year.

Tom Phillips said:

Bumper said:

The 2005 WADA Prohibited List specifically states that caffeine is NOT
considered as a Prohibited Substance (page 6). So if the powers that be
don't think of it as performance enhancer why should Pam Reed?

So, if Baseball management doesn't specifically ban
steroids, why should Mark McGywer consider it cheating?
Fact: caffeine is a stimulant. Ain't nothing knew about
that. Course it's also an addictive substance, so regular
caffeine users also build up a tolerance.

if it were uses as a performance enhancing substance,
it likely would depend on the amount ingested and how
often. IMO if Reed used it liberally to stay awake (seems
a major criteria for her run...) I'd consider the endurance
part of that effort invalid. It ain't "endurance" if you
relied on a drug to keep you awake.

Quoted message said:

Tom Phillips said:

Dot wrote:
>
> frank-in-toronto wrote:
> > With the publicity that ultra-running has been getting
> > i've been reading a bit more. Pam Reed claimed
> > to be drinking ensure, gatorade and something else i forget
> > right now.
>
> She's used Red Bull in the past at Badwater, not sure about her 300-mi
> effort. I would think the caffeine in there might help.

Which reminds me to some degree of steriod enhanced homeruns.
So, are these ultra ultras differentiated between stimulant
and nonstimulant enhanced records? I mean, isn't the whole
point to test/prove the limits of human endurance? Including
sleep deprivation? Seriously, caffeine being a drug (for which
one can develop an addiction), not a component of essential
hydration, I naturally have to wonder...

> Dean Karnozes used Pedialyte on longer
> > than 100 miles. now, i'm just a beginner, but mostly
> > i've seen people putting down gatorade and i've
> > NEVER heard of anyone mentioning Pedialyte!
>
> There's a *lot* of products out there that are used, and they don't have
> to be specially formulated for endurance events (pedialyte is "the #1
> pediatrician recommended solution to prevent dehydration due to diarrhea
> or vomiting. Pedialyte is specially formulated for infants and children
> to quickly replace lost fluid."😉.
>
> Read different forums and you'll see many more products than mentioned
> here. I regularly read 3 different running groups and occasionally a
> couple others. About the only things in common among those is the
> Dean-Pam media blitz and conducting your own experiment of one for most
> things.

Likely Red Bull/Pedialyte endorsement contracts are
in the works.

Bumper said:

Re: Mark McGuire doesn't consider it cheating, but that a whole 'nother
story.

Not completely different. Steroids work by increasing
the body's ability for endurance. IOW, steroids allow
you to work out longer.

Quoted message said:

WADA is the agency that establishes the rules for the olympics and
international competition. They freely admit that everything they do is
a work in progress. Apparently caffeine was on their "monitor" list
last year, but has been taken off this year.

In a competition, caffeine should be likely monitored.

Quoted message said:

Tom Phillips said:

Bumper said:

The 2005 WADA Prohibited List specifically states that caffeine is NOT
considered as a Prohibited Substance (page 6). So if the powers that be
don't think of it as performance enhancer why should Pam Reed?

So, if Baseball management doesn't specifically ban
steroids, why should Mark McGywer consider it cheating?
Fact: caffeine is a stimulant. Ain't nothing knew about
that. Course it's also an addictive substance, so regular
caffeine users also build up a tolerance.

if it were uses as a performance enhancing substance,
it likely would depend on the amount ingested and how
often. IMO if Reed used it liberally to stay awake (seems
a major criteria for her run...) I'd consider the endurance
part of that effort invalid. It ain't "endurance" if you
relied on a drug to keep you awake.

Quoted message said:

Tom Phillips <[email hidden]> wrote:

> Dot wrote:
> >
> > frank-in-toronto wrote:
> > > With the publicity that ultra-running has been getting
> > > i've been reading a bit more. Pam Reed claimed
> > > to be drinking ensure, gatorade and something else i forget
> > > right now.
> >
> > She's used Red Bull in the past at Badwater, not sure about her 300-mi
> > effort. I would think the caffeine in there might help.
>
> Which reminds me to some degree of steriod enhanced homeruns.
> So, are these ultra ultras differentiated between stimulant
> and nonstimulant enhanced records? I mean, isn't the whole
> point to test/prove the limits of human endurance? Including
> sleep deprivation? Seriously, caffeine being a drug (for which
> one can develop an addiction), not a component of essential
> hydration, I naturally have to wonder...
>
> > Dean Karnozes used Pedialyte on longer
> > > than 100 miles. now, i'm just a beginner, but mostly
> > > i've seen people putting down gatorade and i've
> > > NEVER heard of anyone mentioning Pedialyte!
> >
> > There's a *lot* of products out there that are used, and they don't have
> > to be specially formulated for endurance events (pedialyte is "the #1
> > pediatrician recommended solution to prevent dehydration due to diarrhea
> > or vomiting. Pedialyte is specially formulated for infants and children
> > to quickly replace lost fluid."😉.
> >
> > Read different forums and you'll see many more products than mentioned
> > here. I regularly read 3 different running groups and occasionally a
> > couple others. About the only things in common among those is the
> > Dean-Pam media blitz and conducting your own experiment of one for most
> > things.
>
> Likely Red Bull/Pedialyte endorsement contracts are
> in the works.

"Tom Phillips" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Doug won't be happy but the site lists caffeine
amongst a long index of psychoactive chemicals:
alcohol, amphetamines, cocaine, LSD, mescaline,
methamphetamines, etc. Oh yeah, also chocolate 🙂

Damn! I could be using cocaine, LSD, mescaline, methamphetamines instead
of Caffeine during my races? The things you learn.

-DF

"Tom Phillips" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Doug won't be happy but the site lists caffeine
amongst a long index of psychoactive chemicals:
alcohol, amphetamines, cocaine, LSD, mescaline,
methamphetamines, etc. Oh yeah, also chocolate 🙂

Damn! I could be using cocaine, LSD, mescaline, methamphetamines instead
of Caffeine during my races? The things you learn.

-DF

Doug Freese said:

"Tom Phillips" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Doug won't be happy but the site lists caffeine
amongst a long index of psychoactive chemicals:
alcohol, amphetamines, cocaine, LSD, mescaline,
methamphetamines, etc. Oh yeah, also chocolate 🙂

Damn! I could be using cocaine, LSD, mescaline, methamphetamines instead
of Caffeine during my races? The things you learn.

See? You should listen to me...

"Tom Phillips" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

By increasing your metabolic rate and artificially
stimulating the nervous system. Do you deny this
is performance enhancing?

Drinking Gatorade ,salt and food is performance enhancing. By God
training is also performance enhancing.

Quoted message said:

Caffeine is a drug, not an electrolyte.

So is an aspirin.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Lot's of papers on that. It's not
drug unless you drink a gallon before a 50 meter sprint. Coke, Mt
Dew,
Ensure etc etc etc are sources of food and some have caffeine.

That's nonsense. Caffeine ain't a food and you can't
prove it is 🙂

Never said pure caffeine was a food. That would be Nodoze. For most of
us the caffeine is delivered through a fluid that also has carbs like
Coke, Mountain Dew and gels which mix with PB&J sandwiches.

Quoted message said:

Red Bull puts 80mg in a single brew --
more than most teas and as much as some coffees. Why?
Because that much will in fact affect one's physiology
and performance, and that's why even coffee drinkers
drink it. Heck, even in high school we considered it
a mild form of speed.

You must have went to Catholic School- if you sin are you going to hell
.. 😉

If you prefer to shun coffee, alcohol, etc all the more power to you.
But to take it step further and claim is is some evil performance
enhancer is silly. If it was such an egregious substance it would be
banned. This is the same tact that PETA folks use about meat eating.

-Doug

"Tom Phillips" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

See? You should listen to me...

I'm listening but not buying. 😉

-DF

Doug Freese said:

"Tom Phillips" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

See? You should listen to me...

I'm listening but not buying. 😉

O.K., but you're probably missing some good "trails."