electric bikes on centuries

"Mike Jacoubowsky" <[email hidden]> wrote in
news:[email hidden]:

Quoted message said:

What's gonna happen when people try to show up on a century (or, for
that matter, any other organized bike ride) on one of them? So far, it's
been a non-issue due to limited range. But if that's no longer an
issue...

If a century ride uses public roads and normal traffic laws, there's not much
you can do to stop him.

Mike Jacoubowsky wrote:
:: As I'm reading an article in this-morning's San Jose Mercury News
:: about newfound popularity of electric bikes, and their limitations
:: (max speeds 25mph or less; need to be recharged after 8-20 miles),
:: I'm thinking yeah, same old stuff that's been out there, heavy,
:: expensive to repair, cause parts & frame failures on modified bikes
:: etc.
::
:: Then the article mentioned that an engineer has a recumbent design
:: he's trying to bring to market that will go over 100 miles on a
:: charge, at speeds greater than 30mph. And at that point I'm
:: wondering-
::
:: What's gonna happen when people try to show up on a century (or, for
:: that matter, any other organized bike ride) on one of them? So far,
:: it's been a non-issue due to limited range. But if that's no longer
:: an issue...

Why would anyone with one of these want to ride with pedal cyclist?
Frankly, I don't thing these people will be interested in organzied 'bike'
rides.

Also, what would ride organizers say to someone who wanted to ride a moped
in a century? Is the difference between gas powerd and electricity powered
significant?

Mike Jacoubowsky said:

Then the article mentioned that an engineer has a recumbent design he's
trying to bring to market that will go over 100 miles on a charge, at speeds
greater than 30mph. And at that point I'm wondering-

It's true! Elvis was right behind me at the 7-11 checkout, he's put some
money into this and he told me all about it!!!!!!

Quoted message said:

What's gonna happen when people try to show up on a century (or, for
that matter, any other organized bike ride) on one of them?

Laughter.

Showing up at the *end* of 100 miles is a different case.

Mike

Mike Jacoubowsky said:

As I'm reading an article in this-morning's San Jose Mercury News about
newfound popularity of electric bikes, and their limitations (max speeds
25mph or less; need to be recharged after 8-20 miles), I'm thinking yeah,
same old stuff that's been out there, heavy, expensive to repair, cause
parts & frame failures on modified bikes etc.

Then the article mentioned that an engineer has a recumbent design he's
trying to bring to market that will go over 100 miles on a charge, at speeds
greater than 30mph. And at that point I'm wondering-

What's gonna happen when people try to show up on a century (or, for that
matter, any other organized bike ride) on one of them? So far, it's been a
non-issue due to limited range. But if that's no longer an issue...

Batteries with very high power densities are becoming cheaper,
longer-lived, and more widely available. So there's a good chance well
see significant improvements in electric bikes.

Matt O.

Mike Jacoubowsky said:

As I'm reading an article in this-morning's San Jose Mercury News about
newfound popularity of electric bikes, and their limitations (max speeds
25mph or less; need to be recharged after 8-20 miles), I'm thinking yeah,
same old stuff that's been out there, heavy, expensive to repair, cause
parts & frame failures on modified bikes etc.

Then the article mentioned that an engineer has a recumbent design he's
trying to bring to market that will go over 100 miles on a charge, at speeds
greater than 30mph. And at that point I'm wondering-

What's gonna happen when people try to show up on a century (or, for that
matter, any other organized bike ride) on one of them? So far, it's been a
non-issue due to limited range. But if that's no longer an issue...

Forget what happens at the beginning of the ride. Wait till one of those
'riders' tries to brag about riding 100 miles to a cyclist that pedaled the
entire (or even most) of the distance. The 'lectric rider will get laughed out
of town, "What a WIMP!"

--
Mike Vore
http://www.OhMyWoodness.com
http://mike.vorefamily.net/twr

Mike Jacoubowsky said:

As I'm reading an article in this-morning's San Jose Mercury News about
newfound popularity of electric bikes, and their limitations (max speeds
25mph or less; need to be recharged after 8-20 miles), I'm thinking yeah,
same old stuff that's been out there, heavy, expensive to repair, cause
parts & frame failures on modified bikes etc.

Then the article mentioned that an engineer has a recumbent design he's
trying to bring to market that will go over 100 miles on a charge, at speeds
greater than 30mph. And at that point I'm wondering-

What's gonna happen when people try to show up on a century (or, for that
matter, any other organized bike ride) on one of them? So far, it's been a
non-issue due to limited range. But if that's no longer an issue...

--Mike-- Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReactionBicycles.com

Let them in but don't count their times. If they just want to be in a
social ride environment and not watching a football game on television
they will be getting a fair amount of exercise even with a battery
assisted bike. I think the combination of football games and television
is one of the worst things ever to happen to our way of life.
Recumbents with batteries, maybe not THAT bad???
I make it a point never to turn down someone who wants to ride along,
whether it's my grandkids, or just someone I overtake on a ride.
Accept the inevitable, that some people won't ride unless they have a
way out of getting themselves too tired, and the batteries are their
emergency lifeline. Better than not riding at all.
Bill Baka

mike vore said:

Mike Jacoubowsky said:

As I'm reading an article in this-morning's San Jose Mercury News
about newfound popularity of electric bikes, and their limitations
(max speeds 25mph or less; need to be recharged after 8-20 miles), I'm
thinking yeah, same old stuff that's been out there, heavy, expensive
to repair, cause parts & frame failures on modified bikes etc.

Then the article mentioned that an engineer has a recumbent design
he's trying to bring to market that will go over 100 miles on a
charge, at speeds greater than 30mph. And at that point I'm wondering-

What's gonna happen when people try to show up on a century (or, for
that matter, any other organized bike ride) on one of them? So far,
it's been a non-issue due to limited range. But if that's no longer an
issue...

Forget what happens at the beginning of the ride. Wait till one of those
'riders' tries to brag about riding 100 miles to a cyclist that pedaled
the entire (or even most) of the distance. The 'lectric rider will get
laughed out of town, "What a WIMP!"

WIMP maybe, but better than sitting on a couch drinking beer and
watching football. Double that if he were to run out of beer and drive
to the store for more at half time. The electric bike might just keep
one more bad driver off the road, so I would cut him some slack just for
the cause and effect point of view. If he's riding an electric bike at
least he isn't going to run you down with a car.
Bill Baka

In article <[email hidden]>,

Mike Jacoubowsky said:

As I'm reading an article in this-morning's San Jose Mercury News about
newfound popularity of electric bikes, and their limitations (max speeds
25mph or less; need to be recharged after 8-20 miles), I'm thinking yeah,
same old stuff that's been out there, heavy, expensive to repair, cause
parts & frame failures on modified bikes etc.

Then the article mentioned that an engineer has a recumbent design he's
trying to bring to market that will go over 100 miles on a charge, at speeds
greater than 30mph. And at that point I'm wondering-

What's gonna happen when people try to show up on a century (or, for that
matter, any other organized bike ride) on one of them? So far, it's been a
non-issue due to limited range. But if that's no longer an issue...

Well...I would think that on one hand, it hardly makes sense to keep
their times, but on the other hand, an electric (or electric-assist)
bike is not a completely horrible thing.

Some of it depends on your jurisdiction: locally an electric-assist bike
that has an electric-powered top speed of less than 32 km/h on level
ground and "a continuous power rating of less than 500 watts" is usable
as if it were a bicycle (no license, no registration, use bike lanes,
etc.)

http://scooterteq.com/ebike_regs_bc.htm

My inclination is for charity rides and casual or popular group rides to
allow an "electric-assist" category because such riders aren't really
likely to cause a problem (at least as long as their batteries last...).

I think the bright line would pretty much be randonees of any type,
since the finishing times are logged (though these are not races).
Moreover, the rule with randos is that you can draft any vehicle on the
course, but you can't prearrange for a drafting vehicle. E-bikes in the
same ride add a new wrinkle, and are a bit bigger problem than the
occasional tandemist (heck, the last time I did the Pacific Populaire, I
didn't see a tandem rig after the first 50 feet; I was in with the fast
group).

That said, my bet is the first person to try doing an organized century
on an E-bike will either DNF or be fully self-propelled for the last
quarter of the ride.

--
Ryan Cousineau [email hidden] http://www.wiredcola.com/
"I don't want kids who are thinking about going into mathematics
to think that they have to take drugs to succeed." -Paul Erdos

Mike Jacoubowsky said:

As I'm reading an article in this-morning's San Jose Mercury News about
newfound popularity of electric bikes, and their limitations (max speeds
25mph or less; need to be recharged after 8-20 miles), I'm thinking yeah,
same old stuff that's been out there, heavy, expensive to repair, cause
parts & frame failures on modified bikes etc.

Then the article mentioned that an engineer has a recumbent design he's
trying to bring to market that will go over 100 miles on a charge, at speeds
greater than 30mph. And at that point I'm wondering-

What's gonna happen when people try to show up on a century (or, for that
matter, any other organized bike ride) on one of them? So far, it's been a
non-issue due to limited range. But if that's no longer an issue...

--Mike-- Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReactionBicycles.com

If you're running an organized event, you may want to check with the
local jurisdiction. Whether or not these electric bikes are legal on
public roads varies from town to town..... I would guess if it's an
organized event, you cannot allow them if they are illegal where you are
riding, but otherwise, if it's a timed event either have a separate
category for "power assisted bikes" or just make them ineligible for
competition purposes. But as others said, just for the social aspect, or
the "doing somthing other than being a couch potato", then why not allow
them to ride (unless there's a saftey problem that I don't know about)

Janet

Roger Zoul said:

Why would anyone with one of these want to ride with pedal cyclist?
Frankly, I don't thing these people will be interested in organzied 'bike'
rides.

Disagree. I've known some regular sag drivers that were there because
physical difficulties prevented them from riding with their spouse.
I'd bet better than even money that if they had an electric bike that
didn't make them stand out (as a moped would), they would have been on
it, riding in the group.

Curtis L. Russell
Odenton, MD (USA)
Just someone on two wheels...

Ryan Cousineau wrote:

<snip>

Quoted message said:

That said, my bet is the first person to try doing an organized
century on an E-bike will either DNF or be fully self-propelled for
the last quarter of the ride.

Would you be willing to help them finish if they were towing the LIVEDRUNK-
tm cooler?

--
Bill Asher

Curtis L. Russell wrote:
:: On Sun, 28 Jan 2007 15:32:39 -0500, "Roger Zoul"
:: <[email hidden]> wrote:
::
::: Why would anyone with one of these want to ride with pedal cyclist?
::: Frankly, I don't thing these people will be interested in organzied
::: 'bike' rides.
::
:: Disagree. I've known some regular sag drivers that were there because
:: physical difficulties prevented them from riding with their spouse.
:: I'd bet better than even money that if they had an electric bike that
:: didn't make them stand out (as a moped would), they would have been
:: on it, riding in the group.

Perhaps. We'll see. My guess is it won't happen. What kind of electric
bike do you envision that will ever do a century that will actually make
them not stand out? How big of a battery and motor are we talking here to
push someone 100 miles over possibly hilly (around here) terrain? Zipping
along at 30 mph alone would make anyone stand out.

I grant you this. If you can get an electric bike that does this while not
making the rider stand out significantly, then people would very likely do
so.

Roger Zoul said:

Perhaps. We'll see. My guess is it won't happen. What kind of electric
bike do you envision that will ever do a century that will actually make
them not stand out? How big of a battery and motor are we talking here to
push someone 100 miles over possibly hilly (around here) terrain? Zipping
along at 30 mph alone would make anyone stand out.

The comment was based on the original premise, and the people I was
talking about would have been riding with their spouses, so make that
somewhere in the 12-15 mph group. What, you only drive your car near
the peg on the speedometer? Guess that makes you stand out too.

Second, I don't expect that the bike will actually exist soon. If the
technology comes about to run some of the electric cars at the auto
shows, the bike may show up a few years later. So it would be about
2015 or so, and not my immediate concern. The various transportation
designs that have small motors at the individual wheels would IMO
yield a perfect base for such a bike motor, but it isn't feasible yet
for the market. (My understanding that there is a Japanese car that is
functional with small, powerful electric motors at each wheel, but
which are prohibitively expensive).

Curtis L. Russell
Odenton, MD (USA)
Just someone on two wheels...

William Asher said:

Ryan Cousineau wrote:

<snip>

Quoted message said:

That said, my bet is the first person to try doing an organized
century on an E-bike will either DNF or be fully self-propelled for
the last quarter of the ride.

Would you be willing to help them finish if they were towing the LIVEDRUNK-
tm cooler?

One would hope that we all finish enough centuries that if they were
towing the LIVEDRUNK cooler, we would have the good judgement to stay
behind and help lighten the load. There is always next week to finish
another century.

I always thought about towing a loaded trailer behind the tandem, with
the intent to ride the slowest allowable century rather than the
fastest. I think we could do two standard coolers and a 5 gallon round
one of lemonade.

Curtis L. Russell wrote:
:: On Mon, 29 Jan 2007 13:01:31 -0500, "Roger Zoul"
:: <[email hidden]> wrote:
::
::: Perhaps. We'll see. My guess is it won't happen. What kind of
::: electric bike do you envision that will ever do a century that will
::: actually make them not stand out? How big of a battery and motor
::: are we talking here to push someone 100 miles over possibly hilly
::: (around here) terrain? Zipping along at 30 mph alone would make
::: anyone stand out.
::
:: The comment was based on the original premise, and the people I was
:: talking about would have been riding with their spouses, so make that
:: somewhere in the 12-15 mph group. What, you only drive your car near
:: the peg on the speedometer? Guess that makes you stand out too.

Not in my car....but on a bike if I could get near 30 mph I would, because
it's fun. I'd certainly be a standout.

::
:: Second, I don't expect that the bike will actually exist soon. If the
:: technology comes about to run some of the electric cars at the auto
:: shows, the bike may show up a few years later. So it would be about
:: 2015 or so, and not my immediate concern. The various transportation
:: designs that have small motors at the individual wheels would IMO
:: yield a perfect base for such a bike motor, but it isn't feasible yet
:: for the market. (My understanding that there is a Japanese car that
:: is functional with small, powerful electric motors at each wheel, but
:: which are prohibitively expensive).

This would yeild an electric motorcycle, not a bicycle. Bring on the
mopeds!

It won't happen for at least 20 years, if then, I'd say. Small for a car can
be huge on a bike.

Roger Zoul said:

This would yeild an electric motorcycle, not a bicycle. Bring on the
mopeds!

Well, two on-line dictionaries only differentiate based on the size of
the motor - both say a bicycle can have a small motor, so its going to
depend on the size (both also say a motorcycle has a 'powerful' motor,
so it looks almost as if one stole from the other...). Get back to me
in 2015 and we'll see who owes who the beer. 30 mph and under that can
be carried up a flight of stairs and you buy; failing either of the
above and I will.

Curtis L. Russell
Odenton, MD (USA)
Just someone on two wheels...

Curtis L Russell said:

Roger Zoul said:

This would yeild an electric motorcycle, not a bicycle. Bring on the
mopeds!

Well, two on-line dictionaries only differentiate based on the size of
the motor - both say a bicycle can have a small motor, so its going to
depend on the size (both also say a motorcycle has a 'powerful' motor,
so it looks almost as if one stole from the other...).

The dictionaries might, but state laws are where this will get interesting
(at least, for us in the USA). For example, IL considers anything with a
motor to be a moped:

(625 ILCS 5/1106) (from Ch. 95 1/2, par. 1106)
Sec. 1106. Bicycle. Every device propelled by human power upon which
any person may ride, having two tandem wheels except
scooters and similar devices.
(Source: P.A. 85951.)

(625 ILCS 5/1148.2) (from Ch. 95 1/2, par. 1148.2)
Sec. 1148.2. Motorized Pedalcycle. A motorized pedalcycle is a
motordriven cycle whose speed attainable in one mile is
30 mph or less, which is equipped with a motor that produces
2 brake horsepower or less. If an internal combustion engine
is used, the displacement shall not exceed 50 cubic
centimeter displacement and the power drive system shall not
require the operator to shift gears.
(Source: P.A. 83820.)

IOW, there is no such thing as an "electric bicycle" in Illinois. This has
interesting implications for manufacturers of such.

--

__o Kristian Zoerhoff
_'\(,_ [email hidden]
(_)/ (_)

Kristian M Zoerhoff said:

IOW, there is no such thing as an "electric bicycle" in Illinois. This has
interesting implications for manufacturers of such.

It may, depending on how the rest of the laws are written, and it will
vary by state. They will probably benefit from the lobbying efforts of
the Segway to open up where electric powered vehicles may be used. It
really doesn't make any difference what it is called - the issue is
where it is allowed to be used. There are plenty of electric powered
vehicles that will drive wedges into areas not currently permitted:
Segways, golf carts (used in many golf course communities) and
electric carts for handicapped (definitely a wedge on multi-use
paths).

I doubt that there will be significant legal limitations on
electric-powered bicycles/pedalcycles/whatevers and fewer in real
life. Look what a pain (briefly) the gas powered skate boards were, I
saw no attempt to limit their use, even where illegal.

The real problem for regular cyclists IMO will be if they are as
silent as the Prius is compared to other powered vehicles. A Prius
working only under electrical power can surprise people in a parking
lot. So would an electrical vehicle on a MUP.

Curtis L. Russell
Odenton, MD (USA)
Just someone on two wheels...

["Followup-To:" header set to rec.bicycles.misc.]

Curtis L Russell said:

Kristian M Zoerhoff said:

IOW, there is no such thing as an "electric bicycle" in Illinois. This has
interesting implications for manufacturers of such.

It may, depending on how the rest of the laws are written, and it will
vary by state. They will probably benefit from the lobbying efforts of
the Segway to open up where electric powered vehicles may be used. It
really doesn't make any difference what it is called - the issue is
where it is allowed to be used. There are plenty of electric powered
vehicles that will drive wedges into areas not currently permitted:
Segways, golf carts (used in many golf course communities) and
electric carts for handicapped (definitely a wedge on multi-use
paths).

Actually, all of the above are covered in IL, much to my surpirse.

Segways are considered scooters, and restricted to sidewalks.
Golf Carts are banned, unless specifically allowed by a municipality
within its limits.
Handicapped carts are specifically allowed on sidewalks, but limited to
8 mph top speed. MUPs are considered sidewalks for this purpose.

Quoted message said:

I doubt that there will be significant legal limitations on
electric-powered bicycles/pedalcycles/whatevers and fewer in real
life.

Well, technically, there aren't many now; they're mopeds, and mopeds are
allowed on public roads. Mopeds do require a driver's license, though
(IL has a special class L license for folks who can't/won't get a
standard DL).

Quoted message said:

Look what a pain (briefly) the gas powered skate boards were, I
saw no attempt to limit their use, even where illegal.

You don't live around Chicago. Cook County banned them outright, and
there was much wailing and gnashing of teeth over them from TPTB.
They had a pretty short half-life.

Quoted message said:

The real problem for regular cyclists IMO will be if they are as
silent as the Prius is compared to other powered vehicles. A Prius
working only under electrical power can surprise people in a parking
lot. So would an electrical vehicle on a MUP.

That's a problem [1], and it does uncover one restriction on electric
bikes under current state law here: "motorized" vehicles are banned
from the major MUPs in this area. However, given their stealth nature,
most elctric cyclists could probably get by, as long as they don't go
tearing along at 20 mph.

[1] One can say the same for a bicycle, of course. That's why I have a
bell on mine.

--

__o Kristian Zoerhoff
_'\(,_ [email hidden]
(_)/ (_)