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EGNOS working at last!

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General fitness, health and nutrition
Published
21 April 2006
Last activity
26 April 2006
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Paul Saunders
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  1. Yeah, I know it's been on for a while, but I only recently got it working.
    Finally picked up no. 33 a couple of days ago.

    After a number of unsuccessful attempts, I decided to try a hard reset of my
    GPS to force it to download the almanacs afresh. This worked and within
    half an hour I acquired no. 33 (making sure I was standing at a point where
    it was visible in the sky, at roughly 195 degrees from my location).

    Just mentioning this in case anyone else hasn't been able to pick up any
    EGNOS satellites yet.

    Before I received any corrections it was reporting an EPE of 5m in my
    garden. With corrections it reported 2m. Was only picking up around 6-7
    satellites so I'd expect even better reception on the hill, maybe 1m
    accuracy? Anybody seen that?

    Paul

  2. Bitstring <[email hidden]>, from the wonderful
    person Paul Saunders <[email hidden]> said

    Quoted message said:

    Yeah, I know it's been on for a while, but I only recently got it working.
    Finally picked up no. 33 a couple of days ago.

    After a number of unsuccessful attempts, I decided to try a hard reset of my
    GPS to force it to download the almanacs afresh. This worked and within
    half an hour I acquired no. 33 (making sure I was standing at a point where
    it was visible in the sky, at roughly 195 degrees from my location).

    Just mentioning this in case anyone else hasn't been able to pick up any
    EGNOS satellites yet.

    Actually Sat #33 is ESTB, (the EGNOS Test Bed) which is back on the air
    after being down for ~10 days (until1 14th April). IME this is more
    useful than the real EGNOS birds (#37 and #39, from memory) .. both
    easier to see from here (being out West rather than East) and giving
    less whacky corrections (usually).

    Quoted message said:

    Before I received any corrections it was reporting an EPE of 5m in my
    garden. With corrections it reported 2m. Was only picking up around 6-7
    satellites so I'd expect even better reception on the hill, maybe 1m
    accuracy? Anybody seen that?

    I believe 1.2m or something is the best I've ever seen (when averaging a
    waypoint), recorded as '2m' on the satellite page. IIRC most (consumer)
    GPSs only output 5 decimal places of degrees, which is already more than
    1m, so they can't possibly claim better than that.

    --
    GSV Three Minds in a Can
    Google may be your friend, but groups.google.com posters definitely aren't.

  3. Paul Saunders said:

    Just mentioning this in case anyone else hasn't been able to pick up any
    EGNOS satellites yet.

    Never heard of 'EGNOS 'till your posting! Had a quick Google (it's my
    friend!) to check it out. Will GPS's - in particular my Geko 201,
    automatically make use of any EGNOS satellites in view?

    Jim Ford

  4. On Sat, 22 Apr 2006 09:57:48 GMT, Jim Ford
    <[email hidden]> wrote:

    |Paul Saunders wrote:
    |
    |> Just mentioning this in case anyone else hasn't been able to pick up any
    |> EGNOS satellites yet.
    |
    |Never heard of 'EGNOS 'till your posting! Had a quick Google (it's my
    |friend!) to check it out. Will GPS's - in particular my Geko 201,
    |automatically make use of any EGNOS satellites in view?

    Read the documentation you got with your gps.
    If it says WAAS enabled Yes.
    WAAS is the American version of EGNOS.
    --
    Dave Fawthrop <dave hyphenologist co uk> Google Groups is IME the *worst*
    method of accessing usenet. GG subscribers would be well advised get a
    newsreader, say Agent, and a newsserver, say news.individual.net. These
    will allow them: to see only *new* posts, a killfile, and other goodies.

  5. Jim Ford said:
    Paul Saunders said:

    Just mentioning this in case anyone else hasn't been able to pick up
    any EGNOS satellites yet.

    Never heard of 'EGNOS 'till your posting! Had a quick Google (it's my
    friend!) to check it out. Will GPS's - in particular my Geko 201,
    automatically make use of any EGNOS satellites in view?

    Jim Ford


    You'll need to enable WAAS in the System Settings.

    druidh

  6. Dave Fawthrop said:

    On Sat, 22 Apr 2006 09:57:48 GMT, Jim Ford
    <[email hidden]> wrote:

    |Paul Saunders wrote:
    |
    |> Just mentioning this in case anyone else hasn't been able to pick up any
    |> EGNOS satellites yet.
    |
    |Never heard of 'EGNOS 'till your posting! Had a quick Google (it's my
    |friend!) to check it out. Will GPS's - in particular my Geko 201,
    |automatically make use of any EGNOS satellites in view?

    Read the documentation you got with your gps.
    If it says WAAS enabled Yes.
    WAAS is the American version of EGNOS.

    The Geko won't use the WAAS/EGNOS signal until it's been anabled as an
    option in the System Settings.

    druidh

  7. druidh said:
    Jim Ford said:
    Paul Saunders said:

    Just mentioning this in case anyone else hasn't been able to pick up
    any EGNOS satellites yet.

    Never heard of 'EGNOS 'till your posting! Had a quick Google (it's my
    friend!) to check it out. Will GPS's - in particular my Geko 201,
    automatically make use of any EGNOS satellites in view?

    Jim Ford


    You'll need to enable WAAS in the System Settings.

    druidh

    Thanks for the answers. As we can't get WAAS in the U.K. I'd disabled
    it. I'll enable it and get up to speed on EGNOS.

    Jim Ford

  8. Jim Ford said:
    Quoted message said:

    You'll need to enable WAAS in the System Settings.

    Thanks for the answers. As we can't get WAAS in the U.K. I'd disabled
    it. I'll enable it and get up to speed on EGNOS.

    Enabling it may not be enough, which was the point of my post. Mine's been
    enabled for ages but I never managed to pick one up before. It can take a
    long time to get your first fix and download the almanac data, so it's best
    to do it stationary with a clear view of the sky to the south (around 195
    degrees). Here's a useful page to help with getting your first fix.
    http://www.gpsinformation.org/dale/dgps.htm

    As I said, I've tried this before without success so I resorted to a hard
    reset, forcing it to to re-download all the satellite data afresh. This can
    take some time, you can speed it up by entering your rough position. It
    took me around half an hour in total. Here's a page giving info on the
    "secret commands" to reset your GPS if necessary, if you can't pick up an
    Egnos sat like I couldn't.
    http://www.gpsinformation.org/dale/secret.htm

    Paul

  9. Paul Saunders said:
    Jim Ford said:
    Quoted message said:

    You'll need to enable WAAS in the System Settings.


    Thanks for the answers. As we can't get WAAS in the U.K. I'd disabled
    it. I'll enable it and get up to speed on EGNOS.

    Enabling it may not be enough, which was the point of my post.

    Yes, I tried this afternoon picking up the EGNOS satelites, with no
    success. I'll try the links you posted.

    Thanks for the very helpful info..

    Jim Ford

  10. Paul Saunders said:

    Enabling it may not be enough, which was the point of my post. Mine's been
    enabled for ages but I never managed to pick one up before.

    Hi Paul

    I've never got the signal in the Lakes (or Northern England) but did
    enjoy greater accuracy when doing a couple of southern Marilyns -
    Ditchling Beacon & Chanctonbury Hill. The signal strength page on the
    Geko 201 showed 2m accuracy and some text that I've forgotten....

    David.

  11. Jim Ford <[email hidden]> wrote in news:buu2g.38733
    [email hidden]:

    Quoted message said:

    Yes, I tried this afternoon picking up the EGNOS satelites, with no
    success.

    Another thing to know is that WAAS/EGNOS uses more battery power which can
    be a problem with the Geko range.

    John

  12. In message <[email hidden]>

    John Yale said:

    Jim Ford <[email hidden]> wrote in news:buu2g.38733
    [email hidden]:

    Quoted message said:

    Yes, I tried this afternoon picking up the EGNOS satelites, with no
    success.

    Another thing to know is that WAAS/EGNOS uses more battery power which can
    be a problem with the Geko range.

    John

    In the past I've had EGNOS working when in the Swiss Alps and with an
    error reported as 2m using a GEKO 301. I remember when I was on one
    particular mountain summit which had a plaque recording the exact
    location that the GPS readings once stabilised were less than 2m out
    from the indicated grid reference and altitude.

    However I rarely leave WAAS enabled for two reasons, [1] it imposes an
    extra drain on the batteries and [2] it takes the unit longer to locate
    the satelites each time you switch the unit on.

    On the question of battery life I can report a very favourable
    experience with using AAA Lithium batteries in my 301 whilst
    ski-mountaineering. Over a two week period I used these cells in my
    GPS to regularly record my position. Temperatures were often well below
    zero. One set of cells eventually ran out after the unit reported more
    than 10 hours of use (as derived from the "time moving" display), and
    the second set of cells is still going on my return. In general when
    skinning uphill I turn the unit on and off at intervals to record a
    discontinuous track. When skiing downhill I often switch on the unit and
    leave it running continuously.

    On one day we were crossing the Pigne D'Arolla in whiteout conditions
    with high winds, and low temperatures. I kept the unit switched on most
    of the time and it was attached to my rucksack shoulder strap, and thus
    fully exposed to the cold, yet it behaved faultlessly. In my experience
    Alkaline and also especially NiMh cells would not have worked well under
    such conditions.

    Mike
    --
    o/ \\ // |\ ,_ o Mike Clark
    <\__,\\ // __o | \ / /\, "A mountain climbing, cycling, skiing,
    "> || _`\<,_ |__\ \> | immunology lecturer, antibody engineer and
    ` || (_)/ (_) | \corn computer user"

  13. Mike Clark said:
    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    Yes, I tried this afternoon picking up the EGNOS satelites, with no
    success.

    I found out yesterday that Garmin have released some updates (for the 60 and
    76 series at least, not sure about other models) which make it easier to
    find the WAAS/EGNOS satellites. Haven't tried it yet.

    Quoted message said:

    In the past I've had EGNOS working when in the Swiss Alps and with an
    error reported as 2m using a GEKO 301. I remember when I was on one
    particular mountain summit which had a plaque recording the exact
    location that the GPS readings once stabilised were less than 2m out
    from the indicated grid reference and altitude.

    Cool.

    Quoted message said:

    However I rarely leave WAAS enabled for two reasons, [1] it imposes an
    extra drain on the batteries and [2] it takes the unit longer to
    locate the satelites each time you switch the unit on.

    I wasn't aware of the extra battery drain, but it shouldn't be a problem
    except on a long trip. Does it drain the batteries even if you don't pick
    up an EGNOS satellite? I've always had mine enabled.

    Taking longer to get a lock shouldn't be a problem, wouldn't it just find
    them anyway whilst walking? I usually use mine in the car enroute so it
    should have locked on by then with a bit of luck.

    For normal use the extra accuracy is probably irrelevant, but I can see two
    situations where it would be very useful. One is to mark a summit or other
    feature as accurately as possible, the other is if the reception is poor.
    When the reception is good the extra accuracy is negligible, but if
    reception is poor it could make a big difference (but of course, with poor
    reception you probably won't be able to pick up an EGNOS satellite...)

    Paul

  14. John Yale said:

    Jim Ford <[email hidden]> wrote in news:buu2g.38733
    [email hidden]:

    Quoted message said:

    Yes, I tried this afternoon picking up the EGNOS satelites, with no
    success.

    Another thing to know is that WAAS/EGNOS uses more battery power which can
    be a problem with the Geko range.

    Yes, I guessed as much.

    Still having no luck picking up any EGNOS satellites on my Geko 201.

    I've tried a hard reset, which seems to work OK, and went into the park
    with clear(ish) horizons to the North and South. From my observations, I
    have the following questions.

    1) When a bar comes up and is black, I assume it means that a satellite
    signal has been acquired with adequate strength. Is the height of the
    bar related to signal strength and if so, what does a high empty bar
    mean? (I've seen empty bars on satellites 33 and 39, but as I've never
    seen a 'D' on the other bars, I guess the data hasn't been acquired?)

    2) How can I tell when 'the almanac' has been acquired (whatever that
    means in the context of a GPS!)?

    3) Does the GPS give up looking for a WAAS/EGNOS satellite after a time,
    or does it keep searching whenever the GPS is on?

    4) From the walkers point of view, is EGNOS a washout and our('the
    taxpayer'😉 money been wasted?

    Jim Ford

  15. In article <[email hidden]>, Jim Ford
    <[email hidden]> writes

    Quoted message said:


    Still having no luck picking up any EGNOS satellites on my Geko 201.

    I've tried a hard reset, which seems to work OK, and went into the park
    with clear(ish) horizons to the North and South.

    The satellites are to the south and quite low in the sky in the UK. The
    further north you go the harder it is to receiver them as they are lower
    in the sky.

    Quoted message said:

    From my observations, I have the following questions.

    1) When a bar comes up and is black, I assume it means that a satellite
    signal has been acquired with adequate strength. Is the height of the
    bar related to signal strength

    Yes.

    Quoted message said:

    and if so, what does a high empty bar mean?

    Empty means it is not being used in the position solution. Once a normal
    GPS satellite has been tracked for long enough (roughly 30 seconds
    without any interruptions) the receiver will have the required data to
    use it in the solution and it will turn black.

    Quoted message said:

    (I've seen empty bars on satellites 33 and 39,

    As they are not transmitting ranging data they cannot be used in the
    position solution. They probably will transmit ranging data in the
    future and then will be able to be used as additional GPS satellites in
    the position solution.

    They may or may not be transmitting valid correction data for the normal
    GPS satellites.

    Quoted message said:

    but as I've never seen a 'D' on the other bars, I guess the data
    hasn't been acquired?)

    When the receiver has enough correction data for a satellite's signals
    to be corrected the D will appear for that satellite indicating that it
    is Differentially corrected.

    Quoted message said:


    2) How can I tell when 'the almanac' has been acquired (whatever that
    means in the context of a GPS!)?

    You can't! The almanac is the rough position data for all the satellites
    in the GPS constellation. It takes approximately 12.5 minutes of
    uninterrupted reception to receive the whole almanac.

    However the almanac is only used when the receiver is trying to obtain
    its first fix from cold. It uses it to have a reasonable guess as to
    where the satellites are in the sky. This speeds up the acquisition
    process. Almanac data can still be useful even if it many months old
    because the orbits are mostly predictable.

    On the other hand the epehmeris data is much more precise data which
    allows the receiver to accurately compute the position each satellite.
    It is transmitted by each satellite itself and takes ~ 30 seconds to be
    fully received. Usually when a bar is hollow the receiver is still
    trying to get a complete set of ephemeris data from the satellite.

    Quoted message said:

    3) Does the GPS give up looking for a WAAS/EGNOS satellite after a
    time, or does it keep searching whenever the GPS is on?

    If 'WAAS' is turned on it keeps looking for the WAAS/EGNOS etc.
    satellites.

    Quoted message said:


    4) From the walkers point of view, is EGNOS a washout and our('the
    taxpayer'😉 money been wasted?

    I'm not convinced it would ever be much use to mainstream walkers even
    if it was easily used. For most people accuracy being improved from ~7m
    to ~2m really won't be much on an issue.

    --

    Dominic Sexton

  16. Jim Ford said:

    Still having no luck picking up any EGNOS satellites on my Geko 201.

    Doesn't surprise me.

    Quoted message said:

    I've tried a hard reset, which seems to work OK, and went into the
    park with clear(ish) horizons to the North and South. From my
    observations, I have the following questions.

    You need a clear view to 195 degrees SSW.

    Quoted message said:

    1) When a bar comes up and is black, I assume it means that a
    satellite signal has been acquired with adequate strength.

    Yes, and the GPS is using it.

    Quoted message said:

    Is the
    height of the bar related to signal strength and if so,

    Yes, the higher the bar the stronger the signal, if you tilt your GPS you
    should see the bar height change.

    Quoted message said:

    what does a
    high empty bar mean?

    It means that it has contacted the satellite but is not yet using the data.
    In the case of first contact with an EGNOS satellite, it has to download the
    almanac data, the bar will remain empty while it's downloading that data.
    Once it goes black it's got the data and is starting to use it, that's then
    the D's will start to appear on the other bars.

    Quoted message said:

    (I've seen empty bars on satellites 33 and 39,
    but as I've never seen a 'D' on the other bars, I guess the data
    hasn't been acquired?)

    Well you're getting close then! 33 is the easiest one to get. When you see
    an empty bar on 33, move the GPS around to get the strongest signal you can
    and then just wait. It took me about 5 minutes to receive the data before
    it turned black.

    Quoted message said:

    2) How can I tell when 'the almanac' has been acquired (whatever that
    means in the context of a GPS!)?

    When it turns black.

    Quoted message said:

    3) Does the GPS give up looking for a WAAS/EGNOS satellite after a
    time, or does it keep searching whenever the GPS is on?

    No, it keeps searching. If it doesn't find one it will give up and try a
    different number for a while, gradually it will cycle through them all. If
    you miss 33, turn WAAS off then on again to force it to start from 33 once
    more.

    Quoted message said:

    4) From the walkers point of view, is EGNOS a washout and our('the
    taxpayer'😉 money been wasted?

    Probably not necessary for normal navigation, but like I said, it's handy if
    you want to mark a position really accurately, and would be useful in bad
    reception conditions, provided you could pick up an EGNOS satellite in those
    conditions.

    Paul

  17. Dominic Sexton said:

    The satellites are to the south and quite low in the sky in the UK.
    The further north you go the harder it is to receiver them as they
    are lower in the sky.

    So climb a mountain! :-)

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    (I've seen empty bars on satellites 33 and 39,

    As they are not transmitting ranging data they cannot be used in the
    position solution.

    I'm getting data from 33.

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    2) How can I tell when 'the almanac' has been acquired (whatever that
    means in the context of a GPS!)?

    You can't!

    I think he means in the context of EGNOS, which downloads a separate
    almanac. According to the page I linked to, once the EGNOS bar goes black
    it's downloaded the almanac. Took me around 5 minutes.

    Paul

  18. In article <[email hidden]>, Paul Saunders
    <[email hidden]> writes

    Quoted message said:
    Dominic Sexton said:
    Quoted message said:

    (I've seen empty bars on satellites 33 and 39,

    As they are not transmitting ranging data they cannot be used in the
    position solution.

    I'm getting data from 33.

    Sometimes they may have been transmitting ranging data but most of the
    time they have not.

    Quoted message said:


    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    2) How can I tell when 'the almanac' has been acquired (whatever that
    means in the context of a GPS!)?

    You can't!

    I think he means in the context of EGNOS, which downloads a separate
    almanac. According to the page I linked to, once the EGNOS bar goes black
    it's downloaded the almanac. Took me around 5 minutes.

    Black means it is being used in the position solution.

    A hollow bar on a WAAS / EGNOS satellite does not mean it is not
    contributing valid correction data for the normal satellites. You can
    get corrections for the normal satellites (indicated by the D for each
    corrected satellite) without the WAAS / EGNOS bar being black.

    --

    Dominic Sexton

  19. Dominic Sexton said:
    Quoted message said:

    I think he means in the context of EGNOS, which downloads a separate
    almanac. According to the page I linked to, once the EGNOS bar goes
    black it's downloaded the almanac. Took me around 5 minutes.

    Black means it is being used in the position solution.

    A hollow bar on a WAAS / EGNOS satellite does not mean it is not
    contributing valid correction data for the normal satellites. You can
    get corrections for the normal satellites (indicated by the D for each
    corrected satellite) without the WAAS / EGNOS bar being black.

    Interesting, but that didn't happen on my first fix. Only after the bar
    went black did the D's appear. Perhaps it will be different next time, now
    that I've got the almanac data. Haven't tested it properly in the field
    yet.

    Paul

  20. Paul Saunders said:
    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    2) How can I tell when 'the almanac' has been acquired (whatever that
    means in the context of a GPS!)?


    You can't!

    I think he means in the context of EGNOS, which downloads a separate
    almanac. According to the page I linked to, once the EGNOS bar goes black
    it's downloaded the almanac. Took me around 5 minutes.

    Hmm, I had a hollow bar on 39 about 3 units high for a lot longer than 5
    mins but it never turned black and 'D's never appeared on the 'ordinary'
    bars.

    I'll give it another try - not because I need the extra accuracy, but
    just to see if I can get it working! So, if EGNOS is so difficult and
    unreliable, what use is it except as a technical curiosity? If its use
    is mainly maritime, it seems a lot of money to spend on whizz-bang
    technology to enable lobster fishermen to locate their pots more easily!

    Jim Ford

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