Efficiency of "pulling up" on the pedal upstroke

computrainer.comcomputrainer.comOpen ↗

Click on link for Spinscan.

You would be amazed at what the "best" power output pedal stroke is on a bike. Its best described as
pedaling rectangles or doing a cross country ski type movement.

Dont push up or down just concentrate on pushing through the top and pulling bottom of the
pedal stroke.

The Spinscan Software is 100% mind blowing.

Each tiny detail of the pedal stroke is graphed out in a bar and circular graph format and is
instantly update several times a second. The show wattage, Left/Rigth balance and a spinscan number
amoung other things.

You would also be shocked to see how small changes in your bike position effects this performance.

Enough for now..

David Sommerville

"Raptor" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

In a recent indoor cycling master class, I was told that a UCLA study for the US Olympic Team
found that consciously pulling up on the pedals was inefficient. There was more interference with
the opposite leg's downstroke than contribution to the pedaling motion overall.

On a brief downtown ride yesterday featuring many stops and starts, I found myself pulling up
forcefully while starting and accelerating strongly. I don't feel the need to pull up while
cruising. Having logged 10K's of miles in my life, I'd be surprised to learn that I ride
inefficiently.

Is this counter-productive effect of pulling up only apparent during cruising or steady-state
riding? Is there a specific Ed Burke book that examines this, or a link to this particular study?

--
--
Lynn Wallace xmission.com~lawallOpen ↗ "Let me tell you what else I'm worried about. I'm
worried about an opponent who uses nation building and the military in the same sentence. See, our
view of the military is for the military to be properly prepared to fight and win war and
therefore, prevent war from happening in the first place." George Bush, Nov. 6, 2000

Raptor said:

Is there a specific Ed Burke book that examines this,

_Science Of Cycling_, edited by Ed Burke.

amazon.com087322048XOpen ↗

This is an old book, but I remember one of the chapters addresses this issue. I remember a photo of
a pedal with a built-in force measurement device, and a nice plot of the pedal force direction as a
function of crank angle.

If I remember, one of the results was that pulling up made a very small (if any direct)
contribution.

I sold my copy last year and it's been a long time since I read it, so maybe someone who has a copy
can post a more accurate summary of the article.

The article I'm thinking of may be old enough to have been superseded by a better or more
recent study.

Anyway, I hope this sets you in the right direction.

Here is another thing to look at:

analyticcycling.comPedalForcesAtPedal Page.htmlOpen ↗

-Gerard

"Raptor" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

In a recent indoor cycling master class, I was told that a UCLA study for the US Olympic Team
found that consciously pulling up on the pedals was inefficient. There was more interference with
the opposite leg's downstroke than contribution to the pedaling motion overall.

From what I've read on the subject, which is admittedly not much, you get a more efficient pedal
stroke by riding as though you're scraping the mud off your shoes. i.e. pulling back after you've
stomped down on the pedals. It is hard to consciously change your pedalling action though, and
obviously it requires that you be set up correctly.

cheers, Jeff

You'll find that you automatically use this sort of pedal stroke if you just try to point your toes
straight up while you're riding.. I haven't been able to do it for long periods of time but it sure
as hell shows when you're accelerating.

"David Sommerville" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

computrainer.comcomputrainer.comOpen ↗

Click on link for Spinscan.

You would be amazed at what the "best" power output pedal stroke is

on a

Quoted message said:

bike. Its best described as pedaling rectangles or doing a cross country

ski type

Quoted message said:

movement.

Dont push up or down just concentrate on pushing through the top and

pulling

Quoted message said:

bottom of the pedal stroke.

The Spinscan Software is 100% mind blowing.

Each tiny detail of the pedal stroke is graphed out in a bar and

circular

Quoted message said:

graph format and is instantly update several times a second. The show wattage, Left/Rigth balance
and a spinscan number amoung

other

Quoted message said:

things.

You would also be shocked to see how small changes in your bike

position

Quoted message said:

effects this performance.

Enough for now..

David Sommerville

"Raptor" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

In a recent indoor cycling master class, I was told that a UCLA

study

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

for the US Olympic Team found that consciously pulling up on the

pedals

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

was inefficient. There was more interference with the opposite

leg's

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

downstroke than contribution to the pedaling motion overall.

On a brief downtown ride yesterday featuring many stops and

starts, I

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

found myself pulling up forcefully while starting and accelerating strongly. I don't feel the
need to pull up while cruising.

Having

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

logged 10K's of miles in my life, I'd be surprised to learn that I

ride

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

inefficiently.

Is this counter-productive effect of pulling up only apparent

during

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

cruising or steady-state riding? Is there a specific Ed Burke

book that

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

examines this, or a link to this particular study?

--
--
Lynn Wallace xmission.com~lawallOpen ↗ "Let me tell you what else I'm worried about. I'm
worried about

an

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

opponent who uses nation building and the military in the same sentence. See, our view of the
military is for the military to be properly prepared to fight and win war and therefore,
prevent war

from

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

happening in the first place." George Bush, Nov. 6, 2000

"Jeff Jones" <jeff@cyclingnews-punt-com> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Raptor" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

In a recent indoor cycling master class, I was told that a UCLA study for the US Olympic Team
found that consciously pulling up on the pedals was inefficient. There was more interference
with the opposite leg's downstroke than contribution to the pedaling motion overall.

From what I've read on the subject, which is admittedly not much, you get

a

Quoted message said:

more efficient pedal stroke by riding as though you're scraping the mud

off

Quoted message said:

your shoes. i.e. pulling back after you've stomped down on the pedals. It

is

Quoted message said:

hard to consciously change your pedalling action though, and obviously it requires that you be set
up correctly.

cheers, Jeff

For what it's worth - I've had a similar experience when riding my fixed gear on the road. At high
cadence, like on a downhill, I noticed that an "Up and Down" pedaling style caused my legs to
bounce. I'd spend my energy trying to keep up with the pedals than actually putting power to the
bike. When I changed to a shuffle, like cross country skiing (just trying to keep my feet moving
forwards and back), I was able to ride at a much higher cadence while still powering the bike.

-T

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

"Raptor" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

In a recent indoor cycling master class, I was told that a UCLA study for the US Olympic Team
found that consciously pulling up on the pedals was inefficient. There was more interference
with the opposite leg's downstroke than contribution to the pedaling motion overall.

For accelerationss like you asked about it is worthwhile to think about lifting your knees or your
pedals if you're out of the saddle. Essentially you are trying to lessen the impact of the muscles
opposing the downstroke of the opposite pedal. Being "relaxed" does this also.

-WG

Jeff Jones said:

"Raptor" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

In a recent indoor cycling master class, I was told that a UCLA study for the US Olympic Team
found that consciously pulling up on the pedals was inefficient. There was more interference with
the opposite leg's downstroke than contribution to the pedaling motion overall.

From what I've read on the subject, which is admittedly not much, you get a more efficient pedal
stroke by riding as though you're scraping the mud off your shoes. i.e. pulling back after you've
stomped down on the pedals. It is hard to consciously change your pedalling action though, and
obviously it requires that you be set up correctly.

cheers, Jeff

I believe this technique is useful in that it shifts a significant burdon from the quads to the calf
muscles. It's most likely to help if the quads are a weak point and the calf muscles are up to
taking on some extra load. I find it useful, but it may not be for everyone.

Bret

"Bret Wade" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Jeff Jones said:

"Raptor" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

In a recent indoor cycling master class, I was told that a UCLA

study

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

for the US Olympic Team found that consciously pulling up on the

pedals

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

was inefficient. There was more interference with the opposite

leg's

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

downstroke than contribution to the pedaling motion overall.

From what I've read on the subject, which is admittedly not much,

you get a

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

more efficient pedal stroke by riding as though you're scraping the

mud off

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

your shoes. i.e. pulling back after you've stomped down on the

pedals. It is

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

hard to consciously change your pedalling action though, and

obviously it

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

requires that you be set up correctly.

cheers, Jeff

I believe this technique is useful in that it shifts a significant burdon from the quads to the
calf muscles. It's most likely to help

if

Quoted message said:

the quads are a weak point and the calf muscles are up to taking on

some

Quoted message said:

extra load. I find it useful, but it may not be for everyone.

The pullup action is almost exclusively via the hamstrings and hip flexors. For some, the
effectiveness of pulling up under certain circumstances is a useful attribute. Others derive benefit
during endurance events although the training required to do this for a sustained period of time is
extensive and intense. Any study conducted without prior conditioning over a period of several
months is of questionable worth.

Phil Holman

Phil Holman said:

"Bret Wade" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Jeff Jones said:

"Raptor" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>In a recent indoor cycling master class, I was told that a UCLA

study

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>for the US Olympic Team found that consciously pulling up on the

pedals

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>was inefficient. There was more interference with the opposite

leg's

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>downstroke than contribution to the pedaling motion overall.
>

From what I've read on the subject, which is admittedly not much,

you get a

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

more efficient pedal stroke by riding as though you're scraping the

mud off

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

your shoes. i.e. pulling back after you've stomped down on the

pedals. It is

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

hard to consciously change your pedalling action though, and

obviously it

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

requires that you be set up correctly.

cheers, Jeff

I believe this technique is useful in that it shifts a significant burdon from the quads to the
calf muscles. It's most likely to help

if

Quoted message said:

the quads are a weak point and the calf muscles are up to taking on

some

Quoted message said:

extra load. I find it useful, but it may not be for everyone.

The pullup action is almost exclusively via the hamstrings and hip flexors. For some, the
effectiveness of pulling up under certain circumstances is a useful attribute. Others derive
benefit during endurance events although the training required to do this for a sustained period
of time is extensive and intense. Any study conducted without prior conditioning over a period of
several months is of questionable worth.

Phil Holman

Yes, but I wasn't talking about pulling up. I was talking about rearward follow through (mentioned
by Jeff) that increases the load on the calf muscles. I only pull up on the pedals when standing.

Bret

"Bret Wade" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Phil Holman said:

"Bret Wade" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Jeff Jones wrote:

>"Raptor" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

>>In a recent indoor cycling master class, I was told that a UCLA
>

study

Quoted message said:

>>for the US Olympic Team found that consciously pulling up on the
>

pedals

Quoted message said:

>>was inefficient. There was more interference with the opposite
>

leg's

Quoted message said:

>>downstroke than contribution to the pedaling motion overall.
>>
>
>From what I've read on the subject, which is admittedly not much,

you get a

Quoted message said:

>more efficient pedal stroke by riding as though you're scraping the

mud off

Quoted message said:

>your shoes. i.e. pulling back after you've stomped down on the

pedals. It is

Quoted message said:

>hard to consciously change your pedalling action though, and

obviously it

Quoted message said:

>requires that you be set up correctly.
>
>cheers, Jeff

I believe this technique is useful in that it shifts a significant burdon from the quads to the
calf muscles. It's most likely to help

if

Quoted message said:

the quads are a weak point and the calf muscles are up to taking on

some

Quoted message said:

extra load. I find it useful, but it may not be for everyone.

The pullup action is almost exclusively via the hamstrings and hip flexors. For some, the
effectiveness of pulling up under certain circumstances is a useful attribute. Others derive
benefit during endurance events although the training required to do this for a sustained period
of time is extensive and intense. Any study

conducted

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

without prior conditioning over a period of several months is of questionable worth.

Phil Holman

Yes, but I wasn't talking about pulling up. I was talking about

rearward

Quoted message said:

follow through (mentioned by Jeff) that increases the load on the calf muscles. I only pull up on
the pedals when standing.

Bret

The calves aid in knee joint flexion but the hamstrings are the main contributor.

Phil Holman

Raptor said:

In a recent indoor cycling master class, I was told that a UCLA study for the US Olympic Team
found that consciously pulling up on the pedals was inefficient. There was more interference with
the opposite leg's downstroke than contribution to the pedaling motion overall.

On a brief downtown ride yesterday featuring many stops and starts, I found myself pulling up
forcefully while starting and accelerating strongly. I don't feel the need to pull up while
cruising. Having logged 10K's of miles in my life, I'd be surprised to learn that I ride
inefficiently.

Is this counter-productive effect of pulling up only apparent during cruising or steady-state
riding? Is there a specific Ed Burke book that examines this, or a link to this particular study?

You are talking about two different scenarios. In terms of aerobic efficiency (i.e. long duration
effort), pulling up on the pedals can be inefficient.

On the other hand, maximal accelerations are not about energy efficiency, they are about putting as
much muscle force to the pedals as possible (energy efficiency be damned). In these situations, a
little extra muscle force can be attained by actively pulling up on the pedals (despite the relative
inefficiently in terms of energy consumption).

Analogously, during maximal accelerations riders will also forcefully pull on their handlebars,
utilizing arm and upper body muscles to increase instantaneous power. Trying to use the upper body
in a similar fashion during sustained aerobic efforts would be an inefficient use of energy.

Mark McMaster [email hidden]

"Mark McMaster" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Raptor said:

In a recent indoor cycling master class, I was told that a UCLA study for the US Olympic Team
found that consciously pulling up on the pedals was inefficient. There was more interference
with the opposite leg's downstroke than contribution to the pedaling motion overall.

On a brief downtown ride yesterday featuring many stops and starts, I found myself pulling up
forcefully while starting and accelerating strongly. I don't feel the need to pull up while
cruising. Having logged 10K's of miles in my life, I'd be surprised to learn that I ride
inefficiently.

Is this counter-productive effect of pulling up only apparent during cruising or steady-state
riding? Is there a specific Ed Burke book that examines this, or a link to this particular
study?

You are talking about two different scenarios. In terms of aerobic efficiency (i.e. long duration
effort), pulling up on the pedals can be inefficient.

On the other hand, maximal accelerations are not about energy efficiency, they are about putting
as much muscle force to the pedals as possible (energy efficiency be damned). In these situations,
a little extra muscle force can be attained by actively pulling up on the pedals (despite the
relative inefficiently in terms of energy consumption).

Analogously, during maximal accelerations riders will also forcefully pull on their handlebars,
utilizing arm and upper body muscles to increase instantaneous power. Trying to use the upper body
in a similar fashion during sustained aerobic efforts would be an inefficient use of energy.

This be true but instead of pulling up try using the motion that is like "scrapping dog [censored] from
the bottom of your shoe".

Hawke

What my coach has had me do (2nd year rider, M35+4) is one month concentrate on the 'ole "scrape the
mud off..." and then the next month concentrate on feeling the top of your shoe near the top of the
stoke and then cramming your toes into the toe box of the shoe as your foot comes over the top. Idea
is over time you can do this without concetrating, it just gels.

In article <[email hidden]>, jeff@cyclingnews-punt-com says...

Quoted message said:

"Raptor" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

In a recent indoor cycling master class, I was told that a UCLA study for the US Olympic Team
found that consciously pulling up on the pedals was inefficient. There was more interference
with the opposite leg's downstroke than contribution to the pedaling motion overall.

From what I've read on the subject, which is admittedly not much, you get a more efficient pedal
stroke by riding as though you're scraping the mud off your shoes. i.e. pulling back after you've
stomped down on the pedals. It is hard to consciously change your pedalling action though, and
obviously it requires that you be set up correctly.

cheers, Jeff