Effective bike transport

"Bill Patterson" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I have not taken the course and am not affiliated. Check out this guy.

http://www.johnforester.com/Articles/bikebooks.htm

I know several people who say it very good.

I briefly read it and it is nuts. Follow the advice given there and you will
end up deader than a mackerel. Our fear of being hit from behind by an
overtaking vehicle is sound and sane. It happens all the time and to very
experienced cyclists too, not just neophytes and amateurs. I have not spent
the past 40 years reading newspaper reports of cyclists getting hit on the
road by motor vehicles for nothing.

Cyclists are no more part of the traffic on the road than are pedestrians.
We are obstructions because of our very slow speed in comparison to motor
vehicles.

When I am on the highway on my bike I am prepared to take to the shoulder at
a moments notice if and when a traffic situation develops that warrants
evasive action.Yet I have seen other very many cyclists who are not even
aware of what is behind them. They are out there on the road blind, deaf and
dumb because some fool has told them that they have a perfect right to be
there and to take up their fair share of the road. That kind of stupidity
passes all understanding.
--
Ed Dolan - Minnesota

As soon as I saw this:

"Traffic operates according to rational principles "

I agreed with you and quit reading further....

Another irksome thing I've seen a group of cyclist do is not ride single
file on busy streets.

Arne

=====================
"Edward Dolan" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I briefly read it and it is nuts. Follow the advice given there and you

will

Quoted message said:

end up deader than a mackerel. Our fear of being hit from behind by an
overtaking vehicle is sound and sane. It happens all the time and to very
experienced cyclists too, not just neophytes and amateurs. I have not

spent

Quoted message said:

the past 40 years reading newspaper reports of cyclists getting hit on the
road by motor vehicles for nothing.

Cyclists are no more part of the traffic on the road than are pedestrians.
We are obstructions because of our very slow speed in comparison to motor
vehicles.

When I am on the highway on my bike I am prepared to take to the shoulder

at

Quoted message said:

a moments notice if and when a traffic situation develops that warrants
evasive action.Yet I have seen other very many cyclists who are not even
aware of what is behind them. They are out there on the road blind, deaf

and

Quoted message said:

dumb because some fool has told them that they have a perfect right to be
there and to take up their fair share of the road. That kind of stupidity
passes all understanding.
--
Ed Dolan - Minnesota

"Arne" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:3Nwec.5$uF3.2@lakeread04...

Quoted message said:

As soon as I saw this:

"Traffic operates according to rational principles "

I agreed with you and quit reading further....

Another irksome thing I've seen a group of cyclist do is not ride single
file on busy streets.

The dumbest thing I ever say in my life was a gal who had just taken a
course in safe cycling and she had become convinced that she should take the
full lane as if she were a car. The rest of us were way over to the side of
the road because we didn't want to be run over. The cars were piling up
behind her and I never saw so many [censored] motorists in my life. I think
some were getting ready to run over her. When they finally could pass they
tried to brush her off the road. Later that evening we tried to talk some
sense to her, but she had been thoroughly brain washed by this damnable
safety course she had taken earlier. I wonder if she is still alive.

All of this happened in central Florida many years ago which is notorious
for its bad roads for cycling in the first place.We all figured that gal
really did accomplish one thing though. She had got the motorists so [censored] at her that we all feared they were take out their anger on the next
poor cyclist they encountered on the road and we didn't want to be that next
poor slob.

Well, this is what happens when you take leave of the common sense you were
born with.

--
Ed Dolan - Minnesota

The problem with these so called effective cycling courses is that they are
usually put on by Critical Mass types. The only thing they end up doing is
pissing off motorist so the next cyclist they see, they want to run them
down.

"Edward Dolan" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Arne" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:3Nwec.5$uF3.2@lakeread04...

Quoted message said:

As soon as I saw this:

"Traffic operates according to rational principles "

I agreed with you and quit reading further....

Another irksome thing I've seen a group of cyclist do is not ride single
file on busy streets.

The dumbest thing I ever say in my life was a gal who had just taken a
course in safe cycling and she had become convinced that she should take

the

Quoted message said:

full lane as if she were a car. The rest of us were way over to the side

of

Quoted message said:

the road because we didn't want to be run over. The cars were piling up
behind her and I never saw so many [censored] motorists in my life. I

think

Quoted message said:

some were getting ready to run over her. When they finally could pass they
tried to brush her off the road. Later that evening we tried to talk some
sense to her, but she had been thoroughly brain washed by this damnable
safety course she had taken earlier. I wonder if she is still alive.

All of this happened in central Florida many years ago which is notorious
for its bad roads for cycling in the first place.We all figured that gal
really did accomplish one thing though. She had got the motorists so

[censored]

Quoted message said:

off at her that we all feared they were take out their anger on the next
poor cyclist they encountered on the road and we didn't want to be that

next

Quoted message said:

poor slob.

Well, this is what happens when you take leave of the common sense you

were

Quoted message said:

born with.

--
Ed Dolan - Minnesota

On Mon, 12 Apr 2004 10:59:37 -0400, "Ted" <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

The problem with these so called effective cycling courses is that they are
usually put on by Critical Mass types.

I only know about ten EC instructors personally. While they pretty
much cross the spectrum as to advocacy, none are critical mass
proponents.
While no doubt there are some that are, can you support in any way the
term "usually" from above? Your experience with the issue is what,
exactly?

Curtis L. Russell
Odenton, MD (USA)
Just someone on two wheels...

"Curtis L. Russell" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

On Mon, 12 Apr 2004 10:59:37 -0400, "Ted" <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

The problem with these so called effective cycling courses is that they

are

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

usually put on by Critical Mass types.

I only know about ten EC instructors personally. While they pretty
much cross the spectrum as to advocacy, none are critical mass
proponents.
While no doubt there are some that are, can you support in any way the
term "usually" from above? Your experience with the issue is what,
exactly?

I think what Ted was getting at is their instruction and advice to cyclists
about holding their own in an aggressive and confrontational way on the road
with motorists (see my story in a previous post in this thread about the
Florida cyclist who thought she was a car). That can't be right. Maybe most
of the time it will work, but the one time it won't work is all it will take
to get you killed.

For instance, it there is a paved shoulder on the highway, then a cyclist
should be on it, even if it is rougher, littered with debris and you may not
be able to go as fast as you would like. Why should a cyclist be on the
shoulder and not on the roadway proper? Because that is where motorists
expect him to be. They will be [censored] if they have to go around you ever
so slightly when there is a shoulder they think you should be on. If they
are sufficiently [censored], they will maybe just brush you and knock you
over as they pass. What do these EC instructors advise? Tell us that and
then I will tell you what I think of them.

--
Ed Dolan - Minnesota

....

On Mon, 12 Apr 2004 11:05:40 -0500, "Edward Dolan" <[email hidden]>

wrote in message : said:

I think what Ted was getting at is their instruction and advice to cyclists
about holding their own in an aggressive and confrontational way on the road
with motorists

Yes. The fact that this makes them safer is no excuse for their
failure to cower in the appropriate manner before the Almighty Car.
And the fact that the training and methods are based on extensive
research surely means that the research must be wrong, because when
eivdence conflicts with Dolan preconceptions, it's always the evidence
that's wrong isn't it?

--
Guy
===
May contain traces of irony. Contents liable to settle after posting.
http://www.chapmancentral.co.uk

88% of helmet statistics are made up, 65% of them at Washington University

Ed,
I avoid riding on the shoulder if it's littered with debris or loose gravel.
I have read about people who ride on the shoulder and end up falling into
the traffic usually having the upper extremities crushed under the wheels of
a car.
In a case where the shoulder is clean I ride there, if not, I ride on the
edge of the road ,that ,I feel is safer than risking a fall from gravel or a
blowout.
When I recieve my new Cartike I will be more apt to take to the shoulder.
Ben fox
"Edward Dolan" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Curtis L. Russell" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

On Mon, 12 Apr 2004 10:59:37 -0400, "Ted" <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

The problem with these so called effective cycling courses is that they

are

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

usually put on by Critical Mass types.

I only know about ten EC instructors personally. While they pretty
much cross the spectrum as to advocacy, none are critical mass
proponents.
While no doubt there are some that are, can you support in any way the
term "usually" from above? Your experience with the issue is what,
exactly?

I think what Ted was getting at is their instruction and advice to

cyclists

Quoted message said:

about holding their own in an aggressive and confrontational way on the

road

Quoted message said:

with motorists (see my story in a previous post in this thread about the
Florida cyclist who thought she was a car). That can't be right. Maybe

most

Quoted message said:

of the time it will work, but the one time it won't work is all it will

take

Quoted message said:

to get you killed.

For instance, it there is a paved shoulder on the highway, then a cyclist
should be on it, even if it is rougher, littered with debris and you may

not

Quoted message said:

be able to go as fast as you would like. Why should a cyclist be on the
shoulder and not on the roadway proper? Because that is where motorists
expect him to be. They will be [censored] if they have to go around you

ever

Quoted message said:

so slightly when there is a shoulder they think you should be on. If they
are sufficiently [censored], they will maybe just brush you and knock you
over as they pass. What do these EC instructors advise? Tell us that and
then I will tell you what I think of them.

--
Ed Dolan - Minnesota

...

"Just zis Guy, you know?" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

On Mon, 12 Apr 2004 11:05:40 -0500, "Edward Dolan" <[email hidden]>

wrote in message : said:

I think what Ted was getting at is their instruction and advice to

cyclists

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

about holding their own in an aggressive and confrontational way on the

road

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

with motorists

Yes. The fact that this makes them safer is no excuse for their
failure to cower in the appropriate manner before the Almighty Car.
And the fact that the training and methods are based on extensive
research surely means that the research must be wrong, because when
eivdence conflicts with Dolan preconceptions, it's always the evidence
that's wrong isn't it?

What facts would that be pray tell. All I ever get from you are assertions
about facts that may or may not be true. But in any event I will trust my
safety to my own preconceptions and not get mired in your mess of facts and
so called research. You bike your way and I will bike my way. So far I have
been doing just fine without any advice from so-called experts.

--
Ed Dolan - Minnesota

"Ben Fox" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Ed,
I avoid riding on the shoulder if it's littered with debris or loose

gravel.

Quoted message said:

I have read about people who ride on the shoulder and end up falling into
the traffic usually having the upper extremities crushed under the wheels

of

Quoted message said:

a car.
In a case where the shoulder is clean I ride there, if not, I ride on the
edge of the road ,that ,I feel is safer than risking a fall from gravel or

a

Quoted message said:

blowout.

I am only talking about paved shoulders, not gravel shoulders. I will never
ride on a gravel shoulder except very briefly to let traffic clear, but if I
have to bail out of a tricky traffic situation I will take to the ditch if
necessary to get out of the way.

I think it is perfectly safe to always ride on a paved shoulder. If the
litter is bad, then you just have to slow down some. If you are going to
fall, you must ensure that you fall away from traffic and not into traffic.
I will admit some shoulders are so narrow that they can be worse than
useless. Nevertheless, even a narrow shoulder is better than no shoulder at
all. If a road or traffic situation ever starts to get scary, the very best
thing you can do is just to slow down and get out of the traffic lane. It is
always of paramount importance that you not be hit by a motor vehicle.

Quoted message said:

When I receive my new Cartike I will be more apt to take to the shoulder.

It may be that you will not be able to take the shoulder at all because of
rumble strips embedded in the surface of the shoulder. On a two wheeler you
can normally still use the shoulders even when they have rumble strips in
them but with a three wheeler you cannot. There is just not room for the
third wheel which will be right on top of the rumble strip.

I regard it as extremely dangerous to be in a traffic lane on a trike.
Always remember if you have to take to the shoulder to get out of the way of
traffic be sure to do so no matter how rough it is. I have seen trikers who
refuse to do this and they are literally playing Russian roulette with their
lives.

I have several trikes myself so I am not prejudiced against them. But there
are roads I will ride my 2-wheelers on that I will not ride my 3-wheelers on
for reasons of safety.

--
Ed Dolan - Minnesota

On Mon, 12 Apr 2004 13:11:00 -0500, "Edward Dolan" <[email hidden]>

wrote in message : said:

I think it is perfectly safe to always ride on a paved shoulder.

And only the facts disagree...

Quoted message said:

If you are going to
fall, you must ensure that you fall away from traffic and not into traffic.

Note that this means you need to plan your falls well in advance.
Ideally you can arrange only to fall off when you are in your yard.
Given that...

Quoted message said:

It is
always of paramount importance that you not be hit by a motor vehicle.

.... that's where you'll be cycling as well. And driving, and walking.
If avoiding being hit by motor vehciles really is your overriding
concern the only way to do it is never to leave the house.

Quoted message said:

I regard it as extremely dangerous to be in a traffic lane on a trike.

That would explain the vast numbers of tricyclists killed on the roads
every year. I know of one in the two years I've been watching for
such things.

Quoted message said:

Always remember if you have to take to the shoulder to get out of the way of
traffic be sure to do so no matter how rough it is.

Crass. If the shoulder is rough, stay in the traffic lane where you
have a right to be. One thing I guarantee: cowering in the gutter
will make matters worse, not better.

Quoted message said:

I have seen trikers who
refuse to do this and they are literally playing Russian roulette with their
lives.

And how many of them have been killed thus far?

--
Guy
===
May contain traces of irony. Contents liable to settle after posting.
http://www.chapmancentral.co.uk

88% of helmet statistics are made up, 65% of them at Washington University

On Mon, 12 Apr 2004 12:30:52 -0500, "Edward Dolan" <[email hidden]>

wrote in message : said:

Quoted message said:

Yes. The fact that this makes them safer is no excuse for their
failure to cower in the appropriate manner before the Almighty Car.
And the fact that the training and methods are based on extensive
research surely means that the research must be wrong, because when
eivdence conflicts with Dolan preconceptions, it's always the evidence
that's wrong isn't it?

Quoted message said:

What facts would that be pray tell.

Start here: http://www.johnforester.com

Quoted message said:

in any event I will trust my
safety to my own preconceptions and not get mired in [...] facts and
[...] research.

As per usual.

Quoted message said:

You bike your way and I will bike my way.

No problem with that, but that's not what you are doing. You are
handing out advice which runs counter to best practice. And you are
scaremongering.

Quoted message said:

So far I have
been doing just fine without any advice from so-called experts.

That's what I thought until I started following their advice and found
out just how much safer things get.

CTC is the UK's national cyclists' organisation. They run training
courses for adults. Recently the head office team attended one of the
courses just to get a feel for what they are like - all of them came
away having learned new and genuinely useful techniques. These guys
don't just ride bikes for fun, they are full-time cycle advocates, and
even they are not too proud to learn new things. Neither am I. I
changed my riding style significantly after reading Cyclecraft, the UK
equivalent of Effective Cycling.

--
Guy
===
May contain traces of irony. Contents liable to settle after posting.
http://www.chapmancentral.co.uk

88% of helmet statistics are made up, 65% of them at Washington University

"Arne" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:3Nwec.5$uF3.2@lakeread04...

Quoted message said:

As soon as I saw this:

"Traffic operates according to rational principles "

I agreed with you and quit reading further....

Another irksome thing I've seen a group of cyclist do is not ride single
file on busy streets.

Arne

I don't think that is a requirement, a cyclist has just as many rights on a
rode as a car

Quoted message said:

=====================
"Edward Dolan" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I briefly read it and it is nuts. Follow the advice given there and you

will

Quoted message said:

end up deader than a mackerel. Our fear of being hit from behind by an
overtaking vehicle is sound and sane. It happens all the time and to

very

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

experienced cyclists too, not just neophytes and amateurs. I have not

spent

Quoted message said:

the past 40 years reading newspaper reports of cyclists getting hit on

the

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

road by motor vehicles for nothing.

Cyclists are no more part of the traffic on the road than are

pedestrians.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

We are obstructions because of our very slow speed in comparison to

motor

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

vehicles.

When I am on the highway on my bike I am prepared to take to the

shoulder

Quoted message said:

at

Quoted message said:

a moments notice if and when a traffic situation develops that warrants
evasive action.Yet I have seen other very many cyclists who are not even
aware of what is behind them. They are out there on the road blind, deaf

and

Quoted message said:

dumb because some fool has told them that they have a perfect right to

be

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

there and to take up their fair share of the road. That kind of

stupidity

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

passes all understanding.
--
Ed Dolan - Minnesota

On Mon, 12 Apr 2004 11:05:40 -0500, "Edward Dolan" <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

I think what Ted was getting at is their instruction and advice to cyclists
about holding their own in an aggressive and confrontational way on the road
with motorists (see my story in a previous post in this thread about the
Florida cyclist who thought she was a car). That can't be right. Maybe most
of the time it will work, but the one time it won't work is all it will take
to get you killed.

I'll wait for his reply. The above has nothing to do with my question,
which is specific to the claim that EC/LC instructors are usually
critical mass adherents. And your comments are not per any EC/LC
instruction that I have observed, and that probably far exceeds any
that you have.

Curtis L. Russell
Odenton, MD (USA)
Just someone on two wheels...

Edward Dolan said:

...
The dumbest thing I ever say in my life was a gal who had just taken a
course in safe cycling and she had become convinced that she should take the
full lane as if she were a car. The rest of us were way over to the side of
the road because we didn't want to be run over. The cars were piling up
behind her and I never saw so many [censored] motorists in my life. I think
some were getting ready to run over her. When they finally could pass they
tried to brush her off the road. Later that evening we tried to talk some
sense to her, but she had been thoroughly brain washed by this damnable
safety course she had taken earlier. I wonder if she is still alive....

This appears to be a willful misinterpretation of vehicular cycling.

When I ride on streets with parking, I will take the lane when passing
parked cars so I am out of the door zone. I will then drift back to the
right when there are no cars parked to let following motor vehicles by.
Unless the following drivers are completely brain dead, the reason for
my behavior is obvious. I have never had a negative reaction from
motorists in these circumstances.

--
Tom Sherman – Quad Cities (Illinois Side)

"Just zis Guy, you know?" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

On Mon, 12 Apr 2004 12:30:52 -0500, "Edward Dolan" <[email hidden]>
wrote in message <[email hidden]>:

[...]

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

You bike your way and I will bike my way.

No problem with that, but that's not what you are doing. You are
handing out advice which runs counter to best practice. And you are
scaremongering.

Everyone on this newsgroup is free to read what I have to say and draw their
own conclusions. They are equally free to read what you have to say and what
the so-called experts have to say too. I can live with what anyone decides
for themselves. I will trust to my own judgment and common sense and if
others want to go with the so-called experts and get themselves killed, they
are perfectly free to do so.

--
Ed Dolan - Minnesota

"Just zis Guy, you know?" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

On Mon, 12 Apr 2004 13:11:00 -0500, "Edward Dolan" <[email hidden]>

wrote in message : said:

I think it is perfectly safe to always ride on a paved shoulder.

And only the facts disagree..

You are always safer on the shoulder than you are in a traffic lane. Period!

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

If you are going to
fall, you must ensure that you fall away from traffic and not into

traffic.

Quoted message said:

Note that this means you need to plan your falls well in advance.
Ideally you can arrange only to fall off when you are in your yard.
Given that...

If you have even a split second of warning before a fall you can generally
lean away from the road toward the outside and take your fall there.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

It is
always of paramount importance that you not be hit by a motor vehicle.

... that's where you'll be cycling as well. And driving, and walking.
If avoiding being hit by motor vehciles really is your overriding
concern the only way to do it is never to leave the house.

Being in a traffic lane with fast moving motor vehicles is the most
dangerous thing we ever do in our lives as cyclists.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I regard it as extremely dangerous to be in a traffic lane on a trike.

That would explain the vast numbers of tricyclists killed on the roads
every year. I know of one in the two years I've been watching for
such things.

Trikes are few and far between and many of them are ridden on residential
and city streets, not out on the open road.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Always remember if you have to take to the shoulder to get out of the way

of

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

traffic be sure to do so no matter how rough it is.

Crass. If the shoulder is rough, stay in the traffic lane where you
have a right to be. One thing I guarantee: cowering in the gutter
will make matters worse, not better.

Saving your life from being hit by a car or truck is not cowering. It is
being sensible. If you insist on your rights, maybe your heirs can sue the
offender from your grave, but that won't be of much satisfaction to you.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I have seen trikers who
refuse to do this and they are literally playing Russian roulette with

their

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

lives.

And how many of them have been killed thus far?

A close call is almost as bad as a kill. It will take years off your life.
Furthermore, see Meinecke's post about the importance of courtesy when
being out on the road with other users (cars and trucks).

--
Ed Dolan - Minnesota

"Curtis L. Russell" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

On Mon, 12 Apr 2004 11:05:40 -0500, "Edward Dolan" <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

I think what Ted was getting at is their instruction and advice to

cyclists

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

about holding their own in an aggressive and confrontational way on the

road

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

with motorists (see my story in a previous post in this thread about the
Florida cyclist who thought she was a car). That can't be right. Maybe

most

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

of the time it will work, but the one time it won't work is all it will

take

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

to get you killed.

I'll wait for his reply. The above has nothing to do with my question,
which is specific to the claim that EC/LC instructors are usually
critical mass adherents. And your comments are not per any EC/LC
instruction that I have observed, and that probably far exceeds any
that you have.

I respond as is my wont to what ever is written in my own inimitable way.
But I don't blame you for not answering the proposition I placed before you
(which you have inexplicably not included in your message here). We all
know of course that what the so-called experts have to say about bicycle
safety is a lot of hooey and none of it is worth the paper it is written on.

By the way, aren't critical mass types always urging cyclists to be
aggressive and confrontational with motorists about their issues. It seems
my point is right on target as that is my understanding of what these
so-called safety experts are always urging too. I have only ever attended
one brief class on how to cycle safely on the open road and I thought it was
all nothing but pure nonsense.

--
Ed Dolan - Minnesota

"Tom Sherman" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Edward Dolan said:

...
The dumbest thing I ever say in my life was a gal who had just taken a
course in safe cycling and she had become convinced that she should take

the

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

full lane as if she were a car. The rest of us were way over to the side

of

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

the road because we didn't want to be run over. The cars were piling up
behind her and I never saw so many [censored] motorists in my life. I

think

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

some were getting ready to run over her. When they finally could pass

they

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

tried to brush her off the road. Later that evening we tried to talk

some

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

sense to her, but she had been thoroughly brain washed by this damnable
safety course she had taken earlier. I wonder if she is still alive....

This appears to be a willful misinterpretation of vehicular cycling.

When I ride on streets with parking, I will take the lane when passing
parked cars so I am out of the door zone. I will then drift back to the
right when there are no cars parked to let following motor vehicles by.
Unless the following drivers are completely brain dead, the reason for
my behavior is obvious. I have never had a negative reaction from
motorists in these circumstances.

What you do is sensible and courteous. I do the same. But not all the brain
dead folks out on the road are motorists. Many of the brain dead are
cyclists. They are not only dumb, but they are discourteous to motorists.
These dumb cyclists make it hard on the rest of us who are not dumb. The
Florida cyclist I was describing above was dumb in my opinion. There was
simply no reason for her to be holding up traffic when she could have gotten
over on the admittedly very narrow shoulder and let the traffic go by.

--
Ed Dolan - Minnesota