Effect on going above training zones!

dq75 said:

If you wanted to stay in one zone e.g. Zone 3 (Aerobic Excersize) or not go above it, how much effect does this have if you do go into the next zone for a short period of time?

Do you mean just for a few minutes? Nothing. It won't be enough to matter.

In that case, how much time above a zone would take effect and does it matter between different zones e,g from zone 1 to 2 or zone 4 to 5?

Obviously if at the end of a ride, my avge heart rate is in a different zone i.e higher, it has had an effect.

🙂

dq75 said:

In that case, how much time above a zone would take effect and does it matter between different zones e,g from zone 1 to 2 or zone 4 to 5?

Obviously if at the end of a ride, my avge heart rate is in a different zone i.e higher, it has had an effect.

🙂

Zones are defined for specific training effects. The only practical distinction is whether you need a recovery day or not. Zone 3 is sort of "no-man's land." You could probably ride in zone 3 every day of the week and not do anything harmful. In fact, a lot of riders spend most of their training time in zone 3 (not wisely, I might add). Zones 4 and above clearly call for a recovery day, the harder the intensity and the more time spent in them the more important the recovery. If you spend less than 10 minutes total in zones 4 and above, it's no big deal unless you're doing max intensity sprint intervals. BTW, to spend time in zones 4 and above and not do the recovery day is to throw away the pain and suffering because your body doesn't have a chance to over-compensate and build more capacity.

RapDaddyo said:

Zones are defined for specific training effects. The only practical distinction is whether you need a recovery day or not. Zone 3 is sort of "no-man's land." You could probably ride in zone 3 every day of the week and not do anything harmful. In fact, a lot of riders spend most of their training time in zone 3 (not wisely, I might add). Zones 4 and above clearly call for a recovery day, the harder the intensity and the more time spent in them the more important the recovery. If you spend less than 10 minutes total in zones 4 and above, it's no big deal unless you're doing max intensity sprint intervals. BTW, to spend time in zones 4 and above and not do the recovery day is to throw away the pain and suffering because your body doesn't have a chance to over-compensate and build more capacity.

I agree with RapDaddyo in that a few minutes outside of a zone isn't going to have any real impact on your training and that averages are more important in the long run. If you regimen calls for X amount of time in zone 3 and there's a couple of hills you have to climb and you go into zone 4 for a couple of minutes it's nothing to sweat. The session hasn't been ruined provided your averages are still within specifications.

I do differ with RapDaddyo on the "no man's land" aspect of zone 3 though. There was a thread here a while back (believe it was started by Stormer) about spending too much time in the dreaded no man's land. There seemed to be quite a bit of evidence to support that it was actually a good "bang for the buck" training zone. There was a chart floating around by Andy Coggan as well showing the ...

... bah, nevermind, I found the article.

http://www.pezcyclingnews.com/?pg=fullstory&id=2852

Check out all of the training adaptations to be gained in upper zone 3/lower zone 4.

Doctor Morbius said:

I do differ with RapDaddyo on the "no man's land" aspect of zone 3 though. There was a thread here a while back (believe it was started by Stormer) about spending too much time in the dreaded no man's land. There seemed to be quite a bit of evidence to support that it was actually a good "bang for the buck" training zone.

Actually, I don't take issue with the training benefits of zone 3. It really depends on whether you go hard enough to need a recovery day. If so, I think you get more long term value out of going harder than zone 3, pushing into zones 4 and above. If you're going to pay the price in the form of a recovery day, get your money's worth. I actually end up riding a fair bit in zone 3 unintentionally on my weekend rides. My group seems to ride at a pace that puts me in zone 3 almost constantly. To break it up, I charge the hills and go to the front whenever we turn into the wind, to push my intensity up the scale for 5 or 10 minutes at a time. Plus, I make a big enough hole in the air that nobody complains when we are going upwind.

RapDaddyo said:

Actually, I don't take issue with the training benefits of zone 3. It really depends on whether you go hard enough to need a recovery day. If so, I think you get more long term value out of going harder than zone 3, pushing into zones 4 and above. If you're going to pay the price in the form of a recovery day, get your money's worth. I actually end up riding a fair bit in zone 3 unintentionally on my weekend rides.

OK. I misunderstood then. Sorry. :o

From the description of zone 3/tempo on that article, I still see it as being a "no man's land" of sorts. Of course it depends on what you're looking to do, but I think zones 2 and 3 can be combined most days (long days typically). My issue with riding in zone 3 is that if you do it too much, it's not going to do anything specifically for your racing. Riding at the tempo intensity (or "fun fast" as mentioned in the article) here is only going to do 1 other thing besides the physiologic adaptations listed - it's going to teach you how to ride below your race pace. While I think this zone has its place early in the season, I think it could and should be combined with zone 2 to form a zone 2/3 later in the season, closer to the race season. When it comes to racing, you need to train the way you race - specifically you need to ride at least as fast as you plan on racing (i.e. intervals), so why spend time riding slower than race pace when you have recovery (zone 1) and aerobic capacity (zone 2) intensities available? Save the recovery rides for recovery days and the zone 2/3 for longer training days when you want to go long, not too hard, but not really easy either.
Just my two cents 🙂

*** edit ****
i just looked at the picture again in that article and saw the threshold training. that's another issue, and i'm re-thinking my comments about tempo training now because i missed the threshold part earlier (that picture in the article is smallllll, so it was hard to pick up all the words). Anyway, it's that threshold area that i think is "no man's land" and all my comments from the tempo workout hold true for this threshold training. That's what I meant to say above, but just take all those comments and disregard them for the tempo (zone 3) topic, and apply them to zone 4 (threshold). 😄

[quote="Orange Fish"]that picture in the article is smallllll, [size=2]so it was hard to pick up all the words[/QUOTE]Check this link for a larger table...

http://www.fascatcoaching.com/intervaltypes.html

All advice given is sound.
I know one thing, though. I went really hard last night and then couldn't sleep all night. At points, my pulse had been soaring and there was no way I could sleep later on.
Finally fell asleep at 7.00 a.m. and rose at 12.00 p.m.
I'm trying to improve my RHR which means kicking ass on the bike during evenings.

dq75 said:

If you wanted to stay in one zone e.g. Zone 3 (Aerobic Excersize) or not go above it, how much effect does this have if you do go into the next zone for a short period of time?

Carrera said:

All advice given is sound.
I know one thing, though. I went really hard last night and then couldn't sleep all night. At points, my pulse had been soaring and there was no way I could sleep later on.
Finally fell asleep at 7.00 a.m. and rose at 12.00 p.m.
I'm trying to improve my RHR which means kicking ass on the bike during evenings.

Maybe it's just me, but I don't pay any attention to my HR after a high-intensity training ride. I care more about how my leg muscles feel, especially climbing stairs. They should be sore the day and evening of my training ride but back to normal by the next night. Frankly, I don't even take my HR, regardless of the intensity of my ride.

"BTW, to spend time in zones 4 and above and not do the recovery day is to throw away the pain and suffering because your body doesn't have a chance to over-compensate and build more capacity."

I've been experimenting with doing 2 to 3 consecutive hard days followed by 2 recovery days. You really have to force yourself to do the 2 recovery days, maybe an easy half hour ride or a complete day off. Any thoughts as to whether I am wasting my efforts taking into consideration I am still able to meet the "prescribed" power levels of my intervals? Is this sort of thing normally used in training for stage races?

Orange Fish said:

Anyway, it's that threshold area that i think is "no man's land" and all my comments from the tempo workout hold true for this threshold training. That's what I meant to say above, but just take all those comments and disregard them for the tempo (zone 3) topic, and apply them to zone 4 (threshold). 😄

I don't know about Zone 4 being 'no man's land.' I certainly see lots of X's in that column in a lot of the highly beneficial categories, and an example duration less than half of the Zone 3 work. There was just an article on Velonews which described that VO2 Max is largely genetic, while LT is much more trainable (velonews.com8217.0.htmlOpen ↗), which makes me believe that Zone 4 is where most of us will see the greatest performance improvements.

frenchyge said:

I don't know about Zone 4 being 'no man's land.' I certainly see lots of X's in that column in a lot of the highly beneficial categories, and an example duration less than half of the Zone 3 work. There was just an article on Velonews which described that VO2 Max is largely genetic, while LT is much more trainable (velonews.com8217.0.htmlOpen ↗), which makes me believe that Zone 4 is where most of us will see the greatest performance improvements.

I just did that 30 minute TT test today - hitting the lap counter at 10 minutes into it. Did a 30 minute warmup prior to effort in order to be warmed up thoroughly. Man do I have bad news. My average HR for that last 20 minutes was 172 BPM. That's 90% of my known cycling max of 191 BPM. I'm 45.

What this means is ...
1) 191 BPM really isn't my max HR.
2) I've not been training nearly hard enough and will have to adjust my zones way upward! 🙁

RapDaddyo said:

Maybe it's just me, but I don't pay any attention to my HR after a high-intensity training ride. I care more about how my leg muscles feel, especially climbing stairs. They should be sore the day and evening of my training ride but back to normal by the next night. Frankly, I don't even take my HR, regardless of the intensity of my ride.

Don't you train with a power meter though? They pretty much make an HRM obsolete.

Doctor Morbius said:

Don't you train with a power meter though? They pretty much make an HRM obsolete.

Yes, actually I sort of ignore HR now, on and off the bike. It used to be "Nice to know"; now it's "Who cares?"

RapDaddyo said:

Yes, actually I sort of ignore HR now, on and off the bike. It used to be "Nice to know"; now it's "Who cares?"

Do you use the Polar that you were describing to Stormer?

Doctor Morbius said:

Do you use the Polar that you were describing to Stormer?

No, I have the Powertap Pro and I prefer their strain gauge technology vs. the chain tension technology employed by Polar. Plus, I can use it indoors on a trainer -- I use Tacx Swing, with variable resistance up to almost 900w. The Polar is solely for outdoor use. I recommended that Stormer consider the Polar because I have a good friend who swears by it and he should know. He has a bike shop and has sold and installed Polar, Powertap and SRM. Plus, he rides every day himself and has raced for 30 years, 20 years as a pro. Given that Stormer already has the computer, it would be the cheapest way for him to get power data (about $300 vs. ~$1000 for the PT Pro with a new wheel). And, it seems that he already has an indoor trainer with power capability. I just think he should check it out more carefully and not just accept the general trashing the Polar gets here. I think some of the problems people have had with the Polar has been due to incorrect installation and setup. The positioning of the chainstay pickup arm is critical.

Doctor Morbius said:

I just did that 30 minute TT test today - hitting the lap counter at 10 minutes into it. Did a 30 minute warmup prior to effort in order to be warmed up thoroughly. Man do I have bad news. My average HR for that last 20 minutes was 172 BPM. That's 90% of my known cycling max of 191 BPM. I'm 45.

What this means is ...
1) 191 BPM really isn't my max HR.
2) I've not been training nearly hard enough and will have to adjust my zones way upward! 🙁

1) It's not unreasonable to think that you maintained 90% MHR for 30 minutes, is it? Others on this forum claim to have done so for over an hour, and I think it's definitely do-able. I averaged 88% MHR on a 1hr 40 min "Threshold" ride last night.

2) Same here. One of the best things I learned in my first year of racing this year is that I can go a lot harder and longer than I had previously thought. Before now, I was afraid to break into the 90's (%) for fear of trashing myself. Now, 90% is where I just start to get my groove on, and I know that if I start to hurt then I can just sit up for a minute or two and I'm right back ready to go again.

frenchyge said:

1) It's not unreasonable to think that you maintained 90% MHR for 30 minutes, is it? Others on this forum claim to have done so for over an hour, and I think it's definitely do-able. I averaged 88% MHR on a 1hr 40 min "Threshold" ride last night.

2) Same here. One of the best things I learned in my first year of racing this year is that I can go a lot harder and longer than I had previously thought. Before now, I was afraid to break into the 90's (%) for fear of trashing myself. Now, 90% is where I just start to get my groove on, and I know that if I start to hurt then I can just sit up for a minute or two and I'm right back ready to go again.

It was 20 minutes. The last 20 minutes of the 30 minute TT. The first 10 minutes was at 85.8% MaxHR.

It just caught me off guard because I've not been able to hit high percentages like that unless I were doing much longer rides - in the 2 to 3 hour range. And then it was only near the end of the ride.

It just kind of shocked me because I don't really equate (for me) Lactate Threshold with 90% of max heart rate. I'm not that fit! Perhaps the training has finally started producing some results. Who knows? Evidently, I'm able to push myself harder than I thought as well.

I'm going to rework my zones using Andy Coggan's suggested criterion in that link I posted earlier.