ebay listings, Cinelli vs. Masi

Quoted message said:

Did anyone notice that while a lightly used Cinelli Super Corsa sold a
few weeks ago for something like $6,200 not a single bit was placed on
a NOS Masi Gran Criterium starting at $4,900?

Not playing he game..sometimes bidding is like gambling..start at
$100, not at what the guy wanted as a 'reserve'...so potential bidders
can 'gamble. My biz partner bid on a Ferrari, lowish bid for what it
went for...he wasn't going to win but it was entertainment.

BTW-I would own a Masi such as that way before a Cinelli.

Quoted message said:

Did anyone notice that while a lightly used Cinelli Super Corsa sold a
few weeks ago for something like $6,200 not a single bit was placed on
a NOS Masi Gran Criterium starting at $4,900?

This is not too surprising. I have heard many people talk about a
'magic carpet ride' on a classiccinelli. i have also heard others -
people who have ridden hundreds of masi's - say that the smaller
masi's have a very harsh ride.

And again, production of the California MASI's probably exceeds that
of Cinelli supercorsas, and so the higher price reflects the rarity.

- Don Gillies
San Diego, CA

Qui si parla Campagnolo said:

Not playing he game..sometimes bidding is like gambling..start at
$100, not at what the guy wanted as a 'reserve'...so potential bidders
can 'gamble. My biz partner bid on a Ferrari, lowish bid for what it
went for...he wasn't going to win but it was entertainment.

The first thing is to recognize that prices on Ebay mean nothing at
all except what a particular buyer(s) was willing to pay at that
particular moment. Some people do get sucked (suckered?) in in a
moment of passion.

Also note that a high starting price or just having a reserve deters
buyers. It doesn't matter sometimes that *everyone* knows the item
will sell for lots more - just the fact there is a 1% chance that they
can "steal it" will get people to bid - and a high starting price will
do the opposite. Not sure if that applied in this case.

I've also seen items get caught in a bidding war with two or three
buyers vying for it and then it sells for much more than it was worth
- then another listing for the exact same, or better condition, item
finishing up just a couple days later sells for 25% of the price...
and the two people who were willing to pay 75% more a couple days
previously do not even bid!

I have a few friends on make their livings on Ebay selling - the one
thing they will tell you is that Ebay is always totally unpredictable.

(Donald Gillies) said:

Quoted message said:

Did anyone notice that while a lightly used Cinelli Super Corsa sold a
few weeks ago for something like $6,200 not a single bit was placed on
a NOS Masi Gran Criterium starting at $4,900?

This is not too surprising. I have heard many people talk about a
'magic carpet ride' on a classiccinelli. i have also heard others -
people who have ridden hundreds of masi's - say that the smaller
masi's have a very harsh ride.

And again, production of the California MASI's probably exceeds that
of Cinelli supercorsas, and so the higher price reflects the rarity.

To me "collecting" a bike is creepy. I don't want to be a curator. I
would only buy one to ride it, and those Italian frames of the '70s
had short top tubes in the large sizes and would not be comfortable
for me now. They also weighed a ton, and not withstanding the
constant chatter that weight means nothing, it does.

As for Cinelli and magic carpet rides, etc., I wouldn't know because I
never rode one, but I always thought they looked clunky. I much
preferred the look of the De Rosa, Masi and even Colnago -- which got
pretty trashy at the end of the '70s, early 80s. My ride in the '70s
was a custom made knock-off of a Gran Criterium, which I resurrected
as a commuter (after rebrazing it for the third time). You know what,
it was a boat anchor and the top tube was too short for me know.
Thank God it broke again. I much prefer my Cannondale cross bike. --
Jay Beattie.

Jay Beattie said:

(Donald Gillies) said:

Quoted message said:

Did anyone notice that while a lightly used Cinelli Super Corsa sold a
few weeks ago for something like $6,200 not a single bit was placed on
a NOS Masi Gran Criterium starting at $4,900?

This is not too surprising. I have heard many people talk about a
'magic carpet ride' on a classiccinelli. i have also heard others -
people who have ridden hundreds of masi's - say that the smaller
masi's have a very harsh ride.

And again, production of the California MASI's probably exceeds that
of Cinelli supercorsas, and so the higher price reflects the rarity.

To me "collecting" a bike is creepy. I don't want to be a curator. I
would only buy one to ride it, and those Italian frames of the '70s
had short top tubes in the large sizes and would not be comfortable
for me now. They also weighed a ton, and not withstanding the
constant chatter that weight means nothing, it does.

It doesn't unless you're carrying your bike.

Greg

--
The ticketbastard Tax Tracker:
http://www.ticketmastersucks.org/tracker.html

Dethink to survive - Mclusky

In article <[email hidden]>,

G.T. said:

Jay Beattie said:

(Donald Gillies) said:

[email hidden] writes:
> Did anyone notice that while a lightly used Cinelli Super Corsa
> sold a few weeks ago for something like $6,200 not a single bit
> was placed on a NOS Masi Gran Criterium starting at $4,900?
This is not too surprising. I have heard many people talk about a
'magic carpet ride' on a classiccinelli. i have also heard others
- people who have ridden hundreds of masi's - say that the smaller
masi's have a very harsh ride.

And again, production of the California MASI's probably exceeds
that of Cinelli supercorsas, and so the higher price reflects the
rarity.

To me "collecting" a bike is creepy. I don't want to be a curator.
I would only buy one to ride it, and those Italian frames of the
'70s had short top tubes in the large sizes and would not be
comfortable for me now. They also weighed a ton, and not
withstanding the constant chatter that weight means nothing, it
does.

It doesn't unless you're carrying your bike.

Or if you're climbing.

Weight matters. It's just that the vast majority of us could lose the
weight off our bodies and be way ahead of the game, compared to spending
hundreds or thousands of dollars to save a pound of bike weight.

We also exaggerate how much weight matters. I notice the difference
with 15 pounds in a saddlebag on a bike tour- my average speeds are 1-2
mph lower over rolling terrain and I am much more tired at the end of
the ride than usual. But I don't notice a difference of 1 pound. In
fact I'm not sure where that threshold is.

Frequently I've seen when something goes for a very high price on eBay,
other sellers will offer the same thing and try to cash in on the
windfall. Most of the time the high rollers have had a chance to cool down
and never bid on the new offerings.

Auctions are like feeding frenzies. Then there are the Japanese
collectors. My buddy and I talked about making some counterfeit Simplex
derailleurs.....

Chas.

"- Bob -" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

The first thing is to recognize that prices on Ebay mean nothing at
all except what a particular buyer(s) was willing to pay at that
particular moment. Some people do get sucked (suckered?) in in a
moment of passion.

Also note that a high starting price or just having a reserve deters
buyers. It doesn't matter sometimes that *everyone* knows the item
will sell for lots more - just the fact there is a 1% chance that they
can "steal it" will get people to bid - and a high starting price will
do the opposite. Not sure if that applied in this case.

I've also seen items get caught in a bidding war with two or three
buyers vying for it and then it sells for much more than it was worth
- then another listing for the exact same, or better condition, item
finishing up just a couple days later sells for 25% of the price...
and the two people who were willing to pay 75% more a couple days
previously do not even bid!

I have a few friends on make their livings on Ebay selling - the one
thing they will tell you is that Ebay is always totally unpredictable.

Long about 1976 we took in a mint condition 56cm Cinelli frame at our
shop. The owner was getting out of racing and sold it dirt cheap. I'd
lusted for a silver Cinelli for years. That afternoon I thew on a NR
gruppo along with Cinelli bars, stem and seat.

I rode it home after work. In the morning I brought it back and hung it up
in the shop with a price tag on it. This was one of the harshest riding
bike I can remember. It must have been made of Columbus SP "pipa" because
it weighed 23 Lbs. with sewups.

We sold both Cinelli and Masi bikes and imported them from Italy a few at
a time. The Masi Gran Criteriums, now they were some great bikes.

Chas.

"Jay Beattie" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

(Donald Gillies) said:

Quoted message said:

Did anyone notice that while a lightly used Cinelli Super Corsa sold

a

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

few weeks ago for something like $6,200 not a single bit was placed

on

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

a NOS Masi Gran Criterium starting at $4,900?

This is not too surprising. I have heard many people talk about a
'magic carpet ride' on a classiccinelli. i have also heard others -
people who have ridden hundreds of masi's - say that the smaller
masi's have a very harsh ride.

And again, production of the California MASI's probably exceeds that
of Cinelli supercorsas, and so the higher price reflects the rarity.

To me "collecting" a bike is creepy. I don't want to be a curator. I
would only buy one to ride it, and those Italian frames of the '70s
had short top tubes in the large sizes and would not be comfortable
for me now. They also weighed a ton, and not withstanding the
constant chatter that weight means nothing, it does.

As for Cinelli and magic carpet rides, etc., I wouldn't know because I
never rode one, but I always thought they looked clunky. I much
preferred the look of the De Rosa, Masi and even Colnago -- which got
pretty trashy at the end of the '70s, early 80s. My ride in the '70s
was a custom made knock-off of a Gran Criterium, which I resurrected
as a commuter (after rebrazing it for the third time). You know what,
it was a boat anchor and the top tube was too short for me know.
Thank God it broke again. I much prefer my Cannondale cross bike. --
Jay Beattie.

Quoted message said:

This is not too surprising. I have heard many people talk about a
'magic carpet ride' on a classiccinelli. i have also heard others -
people who have ridden hundreds of masi's - say that the smaller
masi's have a very harsh ride.

There was no hidden secret as to why a Cinelli tended to deliver a much
nicer ride than most bikes. It was right there in the open. Cinelli simply
had much-longer chainstays than virtually everyone else. My 1973 Supercorsa
chainstays measure over 17" (43cm+). Tons of room behind the seat tube.
Anyone who doesn't believe that chainstay difference isn't relevant to ride
comfort probably hasn't made the comparison. Hard to believe that a
half-inch or so would make such a big difference, but it does. Somebody
better than I can explain why this is.

--Mike Jacoubowsky
Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReaction.com
Redwood City & Los Altos, CA USA

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

[email hidden] writes:
> Did anyone notice that while a lightly used Cinelli Super Corsa sold

a

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> few weeks ago for something like $6,200 not a single bit was placed
> on a NOS Masi Gran Criterium starting at $4,900?

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

(Donald Gillies) said:

This is not too surprising. I have heard many people talk about a
'magic carpet ride' on a classiccinelli. i have also heard others -
people who have ridden hundreds of masi's - say that the smaller
masi's have a very harsh ride.
And again, production of the California MASI's probably exceeds that
of Cinelli supercorsas, and so the higher price reflects the rarity.

Quoted message said:

"Jay Beattie" <[email hidden]> wrote

Quoted message said:

To me "collecting" a bike is creepy. I don't want to be a curator. I
would only buy one to ride it, and those Italian frames of the '70s
had short top tubes in the large sizes and would not be comfortable
for me now. They also weighed a ton, and not withstanding the
constant chatter that weight means nothing, it does.
As for Cinelli and magic carpet rides, etc., I wouldn't know because I
never rode one, but I always thought they looked clunky. I much
preferred the look of the De Rosa, Masi and even Colnago -- which got
pretty trashy at the end of the '70s, early 80s. My ride in the '70s
was a custom made knock-off of a Gran Criterium, which I resurrected
as a commuter (after rebrazing it for the third time). You know what,
it was a boat anchor and the top tube was too short for me know.
Thank God it broke again. I much prefer my Cannondale cross bike. --

* * Chas said:

Long about 1976 we took in a mint condition 56cm Cinelli frame at our
shop. The owner was getting out of racing and sold it dirt cheap. I'd
lusted for a silver Cinelli for years. That afternoon I thew on a NR
gruppo along with Cinelli bars, stem and seat.
I rode it home after work. In the morning I brought it back and hung

it up

Quoted message said:

in the shop with a price tag on it. This was one of the harshest riding
bike I can remember. It must have been made of Columbus SP "pipa" because
it weighed 23 Lbs. with sewups.
We sold both Cinelli and Masi bikes and imported them from Italy a few
at a time. The Masi Gran Criteriums, now they were some great bikes.

Gran Criterium were Reynolds (that's a Faliero-Cino personality problem,
not a metallurgical statement)
--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

"Tim McNamara" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

In article <[email hidden]>,

G.T. said:

Jay Beattie said:

On Apr 13, 8:39 am, [email hidden] (Donald Gillies) wrote:
> [email hidden] writes:
>> Did anyone notice that while a lightly used Cinelli Super Corsa
>> sold a few weeks ago for something like $6,200 not a single bit
>> was placed on a NOS Masi Gran Criterium starting at $4,900?
> This is not too surprising. I have heard many people talk about a
> 'magic carpet ride' on a classiccinelli. i have also heard others
> - people who have ridden hundreds of masi's - say that the smaller
> masi's have a very harsh ride.
>
> And again, production of the California MASI's probably exceeds
> that of Cinelli supercorsas, and so the higher price reflects the
> rarity.

To me "collecting" a bike is creepy. I don't want to be a curator.
I would only buy one to ride it, and those Italian frames of the
'70s had short top tubes in the large sizes and would not be
comfortable for me now. They also weighed a ton, and not
withstanding the constant chatter that weight means nothing, it
does.

It doesn't unless you're carrying your bike.

Or if you're climbing.

Ok, I should have qualified that.

Quoted message said:

Weight matters. It's just that the vast majority of us could lose the
weight off our bodies and be way ahead of the game, compared to spending
hundreds or thousands of dollars to save a pound of bike weight.

We also exaggerate how much weight matters. I notice the difference
with 15 pounds in a saddlebag on a bike tour- my average speeds are 1-2
mph lower over rolling terrain and I am much more tired at the end of
the ride than usual. But I don't notice a difference of 1 pound. In
fact I'm not sure where that threshold is.

My Camelbak varies by up to 4 pounds not counting the water, never notice a
difference in average speeds or my ability to get up hills. Other factors
affect my rides much more than my pack or bike weight.

Greg

In article <[email hidden]>,

Mike Jacoubowsky said:

Quoted message said:

This is not too surprising. I have heard many people talk about a
'magic carpet ride' on a classiccinelli. i have also heard others -
people who have ridden hundreds of masi's - say that the smaller
masi's have a very harsh ride.

There was no hidden secret as to why a Cinelli tended to deliver a much
nicer ride than most bikes. It was right there in the open. Cinelli simply
had much-longer chainstays than virtually everyone else. My 1973 Supercorsa
chainstays measure over 17" (43cm+). Tons of room behind the seat tube.
Anyone who doesn't believe that chainstay difference isn't relevant to ride
comfort probably hasn't made the comparison. Hard to believe that a
half-inch or so would make such a big difference, but it does. Somebody
better than I can explain why this is.

I testify with my hand on my Raleigh International that a 445 mm
chain stay bicycle can be a sweet ride and also be nifty in the
corners.

--
Michael Press

"A Muzi" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> [email hidden] writes:
>> Did anyone notice that while a lightly used Cinelli Super Corsa

sold

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

a

Quoted message said:

>> few weeks ago for something like $6,200 not a single bit was placed
>> on a NOS Masi Gran Criterium starting at $4,900?

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

[email hidden] (Donald Gillies) wrote:
> This is not too surprising. I have heard many people talk about a
> 'magic carpet ride' on a classiccinelli. i have also heard others -
> people who have ridden hundreds of masi's - say that the smaller
> masi's have a very harsh ride.
> And again, production of the California MASI's probably exceeds that
> of Cinelli supercorsas, and so the higher price reflects the rarity.

Quoted message said:

"Jay Beattie" <[email hidden]> wrote

Quoted message said:

To me "collecting" a bike is creepy. I don't want to be a curator. I
would only buy one to ride it, and those Italian frames of the '70s
had short top tubes in the large sizes and would not be comfortable
for me now. They also weighed a ton, and not withstanding the
constant chatter that weight means nothing, it does.
As for Cinelli and magic carpet rides, etc., I wouldn't know because

I

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

never rode one, but I always thought they looked clunky. I much
preferred the look of the De Rosa, Masi and even Colnago -- which got
pretty trashy at the end of the '70s, early 80s. My ride in the '70s
was a custom made knock-off of a Gran Criterium, which I resurrected
as a commuter (after rebrazing it for the third time). You know

what,

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

it was a boat anchor and the top tube was too short for me know.
Thank God it broke again. I much prefer my Cannondale cross bike. --

* * Chas said:

Long about 1976 we took in a mint condition 56cm Cinelli frame at our
shop. The owner was getting out of racing and sold it dirt cheap. I'd
lusted for a silver Cinelli for years. That afternoon I thew on a NR
gruppo along with Cinelli bars, stem and seat.
I rode it home after work. In the morning I brought it back and hung

it up

Quoted message said:

in the shop with a price tag on it. This was one of the harshest

riding

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

bike I can remember. It must have been made of Columbus SP "pipa"

because

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

it weighed 23 Lbs. with sewups.
We sold both Cinelli and Masi bikes and imported them from Italy a

few

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

at a time. The Masi Gran Criteriums, now they were some great bikes.

Gran Criterium were Reynolds (that's a Faliero-Cino personality problem,
not a metallurgical statement)
--
Andrew Muzi

Most Cinelli road bikes built during the mid 1970s were made from Columbus
SP. Some of the older Masi's had Reynolds stickers on the top tube like
Legnanos. I cut apart a few Cinelli frames to replace bent top and down
tubes. I remember a 50cm frame that was built in the early 60s. The tubes
weren't even mitered and there was at least an 1/8" gap between the head
tube and the top and down tubes. The lugs were all that was holding the
main triangle together. So much for great Italian craftsmanship.

Chas.

* * Chas said:

Most Cinelli road bikes built during the mid 1970s were made from Columbus
SP. Some of the older Masi's had Reynolds stickers on the top tube like
Legnanos. I cut apart a few Cinelli frames to replace bent top and down
tubes. I remember a 50cm frame that was built in the early 60s. The tubes
weren't even mitered and there was at least an 1/8" gap between the head
tube and the top and down tubes. The lugs were all that was holding the
main triangle together. So much for great Italian craftsmanship.

Chas.

On one of mine the front brake bolt hole was drilled at about 10 degrees
off the centre-line. In reality this was a cosmetic flaw - whoever built
it up just bent the brake bolt so the arms were square; but the hole is now
milled square and sleeved.

(Donald Gillies) said:

Quoted message said:

Did anyone notice that while a lightly used Cinelli Super Corsa sold a
few weeks ago for something like $6,200 not a single bit was placed on
a NOS Masi Gran Criterium starting at $4,900?

This is not too surprising. I have heard many people talk about a
'magic carpet ride' on a classiccinelli. i have also heard others -
people who have ridden hundreds of masi's - say that the smaller
masi's have a very harsh ride.

And again, production of the California MASI's probably exceeds that
of Cinelli supercorsas, and so the higher price reflects the rarity.

- Don Gillies

Don't think CA Masis ever had a Grand Criterium tho-could be wrong. GC
were Italian models only.

* * Chas said:

"A Muzi" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>> [email hidden] writes:
>>> Did anyone notice that while a lightly used Cinelli Super Corsa

sold

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

a
>>> few weeks ago for something like $6,200 not a single bit was placed
>>> on a NOS Masi Gran Criterium starting at $4,900?

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> [email hidden] (Donald Gillies) wrote:
>> This is not too surprising. I have heard many people talk about a
>> 'magic carpet ride' on a classiccinelli. i have also heard others -
>> people who have ridden hundreds of masi's - say that the smaller
>> masi's have a very harsh ride.
>> And again, production of the California MASI's probably exceeds that
>> of Cinelli supercorsas, and so the higher price reflects the rarity.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

"Jay Beattie" <[email hidden]> wrote
> To me "collecting" a bike is creepy. I don't want to be a curator. I
> would only buy one to ride it, and those Italian frames of the '70s
> had short top tubes in the large sizes and would not be comfortable
> for me now. They also weighed a ton, and not withstanding the
> constant chatter that weight means nothing, it does.
> As for Cinelli and magic carpet rides, etc., I wouldn't know because

I

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> never rode one, but I always thought they looked clunky. I much
> preferred the look of the De Rosa, Masi and even Colnago -- which got
> pretty trashy at the end of the '70s, early 80s. My ride in the '70s
> was a custom made knock-off of a Gran Criterium, which I resurrected
> as a commuter (after rebrazing it for the third time). You know

what,

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> it was a boat anchor and the top tube was too short for me know.
> Thank God it broke again. I much prefer my Cannondale cross bike. --

Quoted message said:

* * Chas said:

Long about 1976 we took in a mint condition 56cm Cinelli frame at our
shop. The owner was getting out of racing and sold it dirt cheap. I'd
lusted for a silver Cinelli for years. That afternoon I thew on a NR
gruppo along with Cinelli bars, stem and seat.
I rode it home after work. In the morning I brought it back and hung

it up

Quoted message said:

in the shop with a price tag on it. This was one of the harshest

riding

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

bike I can remember. It must have been made of Columbus SP "pipa"

because

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

it weighed 23 Lbs. with sewups.
We sold both Cinelli and Masi bikes and imported them from Italy a

few

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

at a time. The Masi Gran Criteriums, now they were some great bikes.

Quoted message said:

Gran Criterium were Reynolds (that's a Faliero-Cino personality problem,
not a metallurgical statement)
--
Andrew Muzi

Most Cinelli road bikes built during the mid 1970s were made from Columbus
SP. Some of the older Masi's had Reynolds stickers on the top tube like
Legnanos. I cut apart a few Cinelli frames to replace bent top and down
tubes. I remember a 50cm frame that was built in the early 60s. The tubes
weren't even mitered and there was at least an 1/8" gap between the head
tube and the top and down tubes. The lugs were all that was holding the
main triangle together. So much for great Italian craftsmanship.

Sometimes, it is best not to look too closely. ;-)

The reality is that these were production line frames. The same
"flaws" could be found in many other frames from Italy and elsewhere.
IMO, it was the Japanese who raised the bar with respect to the
quality of production line frames.

G.T. said:

"Tim McNamara" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

In article <[email hidden]>,
"G.T." <[email hidden]> wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Jay Beattie wrote:
> On Apr 13, 8:39 am, [email hidden] (Donald Gillies) wrote:
>> [email hidden] writes:
>>> Did anyone notice that while a lightly used Cinelli Super Corsa
>>> sold a few weeks ago for something like $6,200 not a single bit
>>> was placed on a NOS Masi Gran Criterium starting at $4,900?
>> This is not too surprising. I have heard many people talk about a
>> 'magic carpet ride' on a classiccinelli. i have also heard others
>> - people who have ridden hundreds of masi's - say that the smaller
>> masi's have a very harsh ride.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>> And again, production of the California MASI's probably exceeds
>> that of Cinelli supercorsas, and so the higher price reflects the
>> rarity.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> To me "collecting" a bike is creepy. I don't want to be a curator.
> I would only buy one to ride it, and those Italian frames of the
> '70s had short top tubes in the large sizes and would not be
> comfortable for me now. They also weighed a ton, and not
> withstanding the constant chatter that weight means nothing, it
> does.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

It doesn't unless you're carrying your bike.

Quoted message said:

Or if you're climbing.

Ok, I should have qualified that.

Quoted message said:

Weight matters. It's just that the vast majority of us could lose the
weight off our bodies and be way ahead of the game, compared to spending
hundreds or thousands of dollars to save a pound of bike weight.

Quoted message said:

We also exaggerate how much weight matters. I notice the difference
with 15 pounds in a saddlebag on a bike tour- my average speeds are 1-2
mph lower over rolling terrain and I am much more tired at the end of
the ride than usual. But I don't notice a difference of 1 pound. In
fact I'm not sure where that threshold is.

My Camelbak varies by up to 4 pounds not counting the water, never notice a
difference in average speeds or my ability to get up hills. Other factors
affect my rides much more than my pack or bike weight.

I think tire dimension and inflation have a greater effect on ride
quality than minor differences in frame or equipment weight. I also
find it hard to climb on bikes that are limber in the front end
because I like to climb out of the saddle. With that said, my '70s SP
63cm racing bike with NR equipment was noticeably heavier and harder
to ride up hill than my current Cannondale racing bike, which is
probably three pounds lighter. Both bikes are similarly stiff (one
forgets how stiff SP is/was). I think three pounds on a skinny-tire
bike makes a difference on long climbs -- all other things being
equal.-- Jay Beattie.

"Ozark Bicycle" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

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* * Chas said:

"A Muzi" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

news:[email hidden]...

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>>> [email hidden] writes:
>>>> Did anyone notice that while a lightly used Cinelli Super Corsa

sold

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> a
>>>> few weeks ago for something like $6,200 not a single bit was

placed

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>>>> on a NOS Masi Gran Criterium starting at $4,900?

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>> [email hidden] (Donald Gillies) wrote:
>>> This is not too surprising. I have heard many people talk about

a

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>>> 'magic carpet ride' on a classiccinelli. i have also heard

others -

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>>> people who have ridden hundreds of masi's - say that the smaller
>>> masi's have a very harsh ride.
>>> And again, production of the California MASI's probably exceeds

that

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>>> of Cinelli supercorsas, and so the higher price reflects the

rarity.

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> "Jay Beattie" <[email hidden]> wrote
>> To me "collecting" a bike is creepy. I don't want to be a

curator. I

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>> would only buy one to ride it, and those Italian frames of the

'70s

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>> had short top tubes in the large sizes and would not be

comfortable

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>> for me now. They also weighed a ton, and not withstanding the
>> constant chatter that weight means nothing, it does.
>> As for Cinelli and magic carpet rides, etc., I wouldn't know

because

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I

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>> never rode one, but I always thought they looked clunky. I much
>> preferred the look of the De Rosa, Masi and even Colnago -- which

got

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>> pretty trashy at the end of the '70s, early 80s. My ride in the

'70s

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>> was a custom made knock-off of a Gran Criterium, which I

resurrected

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>> as a commuter (after rebrazing it for the third time). You know

what,

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>> it was a boat anchor and the top tube was too short for me know.
>> Thank God it broke again. I much prefer my Cannondale cross

bike. --

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* * Chas wrote:
> Long about 1976 we took in a mint condition 56cm Cinelli frame at

our

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> shop. The owner was getting out of racing and sold it dirt cheap.

I'd

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> lusted for a silver Cinelli for years. That afternoon I thew on a

NR

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> gruppo along with Cinelli bars, stem and seat.
> I rode it home after work. In the morning I brought it back and

hung

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it up
> in the shop with a price tag on it. This was one of the harshest

riding

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> bike I can remember. It must have been made of Columbus SP "pipa"

because

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> it weighed 23 Lbs. with sewups.
> We sold both Cinelli and Masi bikes and imported them from Italy

a

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few

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> at a time. The Masi Gran Criteriums, now they were some great

bikes.

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Gran Criterium were Reynolds (that's a Faliero-Cino personality

problem,

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not a metallurgical statement)
--
Andrew Muzi

Most Cinelli road bikes built during the mid 1970s were made from

Columbus

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SP. Some of the older Masi's had Reynolds stickers on the top tube

like

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Legnanos. I cut apart a few Cinelli frames to replace bent top and

down

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tubes. I remember a 50cm frame that was built in the early 60s. The

tubes

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weren't even mitered and there was at least an 1/8" gap between the

head

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tube and the top and down tubes. The lugs were all that was holding

the

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main triangle together. So much for great Italian craftsmanship.

Sometimes, it is best not to look too closely. ;-)

The reality is that these were production line frames. The same
"flaws" could be found in many other frames from Italy and elsewhere.
IMO, it was the Japanese who raised the bar with respect to the
quality of production line frames.

Especially during the Bike Boom days of the 1970s.

Chas.

Jay Beattie said:

G.T. said:

"Tim McNamara" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

news:[email hidden]...

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In article <[email hidden]>,
"G.T." <[email hidden]> wrote:

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> Jay Beattie wrote:
>> On Apr 13, 8:39 am, [email hidden] (Donald Gillies) wrote:
>>> [email hidden] writes:
>>>> Did anyone notice that while a lightly used Cinelli Super Corsa
>>>> sold a few weeks ago for something like $6,200 not a single bit
>>>> was placed on a NOS Masi Gran Criterium starting at $4,900?
>>> This is not too surprising. I have heard many people talk about
>>> a 'magic carpet ride' on a classiccinelli. i have also heard
>>> others - people who have ridden hundreds of masi's - say that
>>> the smaller masi's have a very harsh ride.

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>>> And again, production of the California MASI's probably exceeds
>>> that of Cinelli supercorsas, and so the higher price reflects the
>>> rarity.

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>> To me "collecting" a bike is creepy. I don't want to be a curator.
>> I would only buy one to ride it, and those Italian frames of the
>> '70s had short top tubes in the large sizes and would not be
>> comfortable for me now. They also weighed a ton, and not
>> withstanding the constant chatter that weight means nothing, it
>> does.

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> It doesn't unless you're carrying your bike.

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Or if you're climbing.

Ok, I should have qualified that.

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Weight matters. It's just that the vast majority of us could lose
the weight off our bodies and be way ahead of the game, compared to
spending hundreds or thousands of dollars to save a pound of bike
weight.

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We also exaggerate how much weight matters. I notice the difference
with 15 pounds in a saddlebag on a bike tour- my average speeds are
1-2 mph lower over rolling terrain and I am much more tired at the
end of the ride than usual. But I don't notice a difference of 1
pound. In fact I'm not sure where that threshold is.

My Camelbak varies by up to 4 pounds not counting the water, never
notice a difference in average speeds or my ability to get up hills.
Other factors affect my rides much more than my pack or bike weight.

I think tire dimension and inflation have a greater effect on ride
quality than minor differences in frame or equipment weight. I also
find it hard to climb on bikes that are limber in the front end
because I like to climb out of the saddle. With that said, my '70s SP
63cm racing bike with NR equipment was noticeably heavier and harder
to ride up hill than my current Cannondale racing bike, which is
probably three pounds lighter. Both bikes are similarly stiff (one
forgets how stiff SP is/was). I think three pounds on a skinny-tire
bike makes a difference on long climbs -- all other things being
equal.-- Jay Beattie.

Lightweights like me really notice weight differences right off the bat,
esp. for MTB due to the rolling terrain... Being able to surmount
off-camber obstacles at a steep grade is much easier, or just plain doable
for that matter.
--
Phil