Dutch culture

"Simon Mason" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Goede Morgen :-)

Reading a book about Dutch culture last night there was this passage about
Dutch cycling.

Brings back happy memories of many enjoyable cycling tours there, the
only place other than on the London-Brighton I have ever been in a
bike-jam ;-)

Nice quote Simon,

What was the book and who is it by?

This is also interesting. It was on the net but now has gone. It is by
the author of http://www.kung-foo.tv/

'The Dutch thrive on "gezelligheid". It is such a highly valued and
aspired concept that there is no foreign word that equals it. Roughly,
it means a warm, cosy and homely feeling that you are doing the right
thing by contributing to the wellbeing of one and all. As such, it
applies to any context where you and/or your companions feel like
you're just created a safe and warm home, a place where you are
feeling happy and comfortable with the present companions, just for
that single moment. Gezelligheid does not depend on wealth, a
comfortable place, warmth, or what not. You can hear the phrase "He!
Wat gezellig!" (Hey! How "cosy" it is!) in the weirdest situations.
Sitting on the porch of a 'losmen' (lodgement) in Pangandaran,
Indonesia, in the late afternoon, looking at the rain pouring down
while drinking coffee "toebroek" can make you and your friend sigh and
exclaim simultaneously: "He! Wat gezellig!". Even a junkie in a
squatter's house at one of the Amsterdam canals can go like "He,
gezellig!", when, with his friends passed out on the floor, the sun is
breaking through the window and the smell of fresh bread from the
baker at the corner of the street is seeping through the cracks of the
floors. Gezelligheid is a state of mind.'

"Howard" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Nice quote Simon,

What was the book and who is it by?

This is also interesting. It was on the net but now has gone. It is by
the author of http://www.kung-foo.tv/

'The Dutch thrive on "gezelligheid". It is such a highly valued and
aspired concept that there is no foreign word that equals it.

Sorry, bad news for you: the literal translation is "fellowship".

Quoted message said:

Roughly,
it means a warm, cosy and homely feeling that you are doing the right
thing by contributing to the wellbeing of one and all.

Yes, indeed.

--
Mark South
Citizen of the World, Denizen of the Net
<<Tiens! Ce poulet a une grenade!>>

[email hidden] schreef ...

Quoted message said:

"Howard" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Nice quote Simon,

What was the book and who is it by?

This is also interesting. It was on the net but now has gone. It is by
the author of http://www.kung-foo.tv/

'The Dutch thrive on "gezelligheid". It is such a highly valued and
aspired concept that there is no foreign word that equals it.

Sorry, bad news for you: the literal translation is "fellowship".

We interrupt this message with the following: the literal translation of
'gezelligheid' is not 'fellowship'. Being Dutch, I should know ..... The
description by the previous poster is more accurate. 'Gezelligheid' is
not translatable (is that correct English?).

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Roughly,
it means a warm, cosy and homely feeling that you are doing the right
thing by contributing to the wellbeing of one and all.

Yes, indeed.

True.

--
Regards,
Marten

[email hidden] schreef ...

Quoted message said:

Goede Morgen :-)

Reading a book about Dutch culture last night there was this passage about
Dutch cycling.

http://www.simonmason.karoo.net/zdutch.htm

Addition: there are now some 18 million bicycles in this country......

--
Regards,
Marten

"Marten Hoffmann" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

[email hidden] schreef ...

Quoted message said:

"Howard" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Nice quote Simon,

What was the book and who is it by?

This is also interesting. It was on the net but now has gone. It is by
the author of http://www.kung-foo.tv/

'The Dutch thrive on "gezelligheid". It is such a highly valued and
aspired concept that there is no foreign word that equals it.

Sorry, bad news for you: the literal translation is "fellowship".

We interrupt this message with the following: the literal translation of
'gezelligheid' is not 'fellowship'. Being Dutch, I should know ..... The
description by the previous poster is more accurate. 'Gezelligheid' is
not translatable (is that correct English?).

This is beginning to sound like the German claim that "gemuetlich" (content) is
untranslatable. In other words, you are claiming that your nation has something
that no other has.

You should be aware that every nation has such a set of self-myths.

So what's The Fellowship of the Ring called in Dutch?

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Roughly,
it means a warm, cosy and homely feeling that you are doing the right
thing by contributing to the wellbeing of one and all.

Yes, indeed.

True.

In England this would probably be more likely to be described as
"parliamentarianism" :-(
--
"To live in San Francisco and just not care that
there are naked triathletes running across
your lawn, that's just a waste of exhibitionism."
- Kibo

In article <[email hidden]>,

Marten Hoffmann said:

We interrupt this message with the following: the literal translation of
'gezelligheid' is not 'fellowship'. Being Dutch, I should know .....

Not being dutch I wouldn't know. OTOH my knowledge of other languages
(excluding dutch) leads me to suggest "companionship". But I also
understand it's a word that carries meaning over and above the
literal to native speakers.

I wonder if it's a rather good expression of something that's
well-known to open-source software developers?

--
Nick Kew

Mark South said:

"Marten Hoffmann" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
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Quoted message said:

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Quoted message said:

"Howard" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...
> Nice quote Simon,
>
> What was the book and who is it by?
>
> This is also interesting. It was on the net but now has gone. It is by
> the author of http://www.kung-foo.tv/
>
> 'The Dutch thrive on "gezelligheid". It is such a highly valued and
> aspired concept that there is no foreign word that equals it.

Sorry, bad news for you: the literal translation is "fellowship".

We interrupt this message with the following: the literal translation of
'gezelligheid' is not 'fellowship'. Being Dutch, I should know ..... The
description by the previous poster is more accurate. 'Gezelligheid' is
not translatable (is that correct English?).

This is beginning to sound like the German claim that "gemuetlich" (content) is
untranslatable. In other words, you are claiming that your nation has something
that no other has.

You should be aware that every nation has such a set of self-myths.

So what's The Fellowship of the Ring called in Dutch?

I think it's 'de Reisgenoten' (travelling companions?) bimbw.

I don't understand your reference to the German 'gemuetlich' (content).
'Gemuetlich' often translates as 'cosy' or 'snug' and isn't very different
to gezellig although my German-Dutch dictionary doesn't translate
'gemuetlich' as 'gezellig' or vice versa.

Translation isn't as simple as you imply. One-to-one correspondence
between words in different languages is often lacking. This doesn't
necessarily mean that one nation has something another doesn't. It may
just mean that speakers of one language haven't found it necessary to
invent a word to communicate something represented by a single word in
another language.

Both the German words 'Schadenfreude' and 'Zeitgeist' have been imported
into English because there are no single word equivalents.

--
Michael MacClancy
Random putdown - "I've had a perfectly wonderful evening. But this wasn't
it." -Groucho Marx
www.macclancy.demon.co.uk
www.macclancy.co.uk

"Howard" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Nice quote Simon,

What was the book and who is it by?

It was this one. Actually there is a much better one that I read in Holland
when staying with friends, but I can't for the life of me remember what it
was called.

http://www.ovalbooks.com/xeno/Dutch.html

--
Simon M.

Simon Mason said:

It was this one. Actually there is a much better one that I read in Holland
when staying with friends, but I can't for the life of me remember what it
was called.

Roos gave me "The Undutchables"
(http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/1888580224/ref=sr_aps_books_1_1/202-3724621-5367803)
as a handy "user-manual"...

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch University of Dundee
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Medical Physics, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net [email hidden] http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

"Peter Clinch" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Simon Mason said:

It was this one. Actually there is a much better one that I read in

Holland

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

when staying with friends, but I can't for the life of me remember what

it

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

was called.

Roos gave me "The Undutchables"

(http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/1888580224/ref=sr_aps_books_1_1/20
2-3724621-5367803)

Quoted message said:

as a handy "user-manual"...

That's the one! Thanks Peter - I've ordered a used one just now :-)

--
Simon M.

Michael MacClancy:

Quoted message said:

Translation isn't as simple as you imply. One-to-one correspondence
between words in different languages is often lacking.

I agree entirely, but it is partly down to cultural differences - the reason
there's no English word for Schadenfreude is not because it's a concept we
lack but because our natural British reserve has always prevented us talking
about it, hence no need for the word. ;-)

Quoted message said:

Both the German words 'Schadenfreude' and 'Zeitgeist' have been imported
into English because there are no single word equivalents.

Hmm. Zeitgeist is a word I could do with hearing a lot less of.

d.

davek said:

Michael MacClancy:

Quoted message said:

Translation isn't as simple as you imply. One-to-one correspondence
between words in different languages is often lacking.

I agree entirely, but it is partly down to cultural differences - the reason
there's no English word for Schadenfreude is not because it's a concept we
lack but because our natural British reserve has always prevented us talking
about it, hence no need for the word. ;-)

But the Americans don't have a word for it either - and I wouldn't say they
are reserved ;-)

.... although some people claim that 'epicaricacy' is an English word with
the same meaning as 'Schadenfreude'.

--
Michael MacClancy
Random putdown - "He loves nature in spite of what it did to him." -
Forrest Tucker
www.macclancy.demon.co.uk
www.macclancy.co.uk

Mark South said:

So what's The Fellowship of the Ring called in Dutch?

I think it's left untranslated, but if not, NO WAY is it called
"Gezelligheid van de ring"...

Ah OK, I looked it up; it's called "De reisgenoten", and an accepted
more literal translation is "Gezelschap van de Negen" (fellowship of
(the) nine). A gezelschap can be gezellig, but there are also lots of
gezelschappen that can't stand the word gezellig. Gezelligheid is often
associated with a middle-class or bourgeois attitude. Of course, and as
always, people with real class have no such disdain for honest emotions.

"Marten Hoffmann" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

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Quoted message said:

Goede Morgen :-)

Reading a book about Dutch culture last night there was this passage

about

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Dutch cycling.

http://www.simonmason.karoo.net/zdutch.htm

Addition: there are now some 18 million bicycles in this country......

There are 20 million bikes in the UK. The difference is - you use them ;-)

--
Simon M.

Simon Mason said:

Quoted message said:

Addition: there are now some 18 million bicycles in this country......

There are 20 million bikes in the UK. The difference is - you use them ;-)

...and some 44M people.

In news:[email hidden],
Ewoud Dronkert <[email hidden]> typed:

Quoted message said:

Simon Mason said:

Quoted message said:

Addition: there are now some 18 million bicycles in this
country......

There are 20 million bikes in the UK. The difference is - you use
them ;-)

..and some 44M people.

Yes. There's 1016 bikes per 1000 inhabitants in the Netherlands, compared to
200ish per 1000 in the UK. The UK's bikes are considerably less underused
than the bikes in several other European countries, e.g. France (slightly
higher overall mileage but lower day to day usage), Luxembourg, Spain,
Portugal, Greece, however.

A

Ewoud Dronkert said:

Simon Mason said:

Quoted message said:

Addition: there are now some 18 million bicycles in this country......

There are 20 million bikes in the UK. The difference is - you use them ;-)

..and some 44M people.

Where?
--
Michael MacClancy
Random putdown - "He has no enemies, but is intensely disliked by his
friends." -Oscar Wilde
www.macclancy.demon.co.uk
www.macclancy.co.uk

Michael MacClancy said:

Quoted message said:

..and some 44M people.

Quoted message said:

Where?

Is a bit wide of the mark... As of the 2001 census there were
58,789,194 subdivided as England 49,138,831 (83.6 per cent of the total
population); Scotland 5,062,011 (8.6 per cent); Wales 2,903,085 (4.9 per
cent); Northern Ireland 1,685,267 (2.9 per cent).

But the higher figure makes our own cycle numbers even more lamentable.

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch University of Dundee
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Medical Physics, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net [email hidden] http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/