dura ace sti compatibility?

Bill said:

I have 9 speed dura ace sti levers and want to go back to
an 8 speed drivetrain. Am I correct in assuming that I can
still use the 9 speed shifters with an 8 speed rear
derailleur and just stop it down? Thanks in advance.
Please email [email hidden]

That's correct. See my Dura-Ace Compatibility Page:

sheldonbrown.comdura aceOpen ↗

Sheldon "Interchangeabilitude" Brown +--------------------------------
+
| Happy Reynolds Day! (5/31) |
+--------------------------------+ Harris Cyclery, West
Newton, Massachusetts Phone 617-244-9772 FAX 617-244-1041
harriscyclery.comharriscyclery.comOpen ↗ Hard-to-find parts shipped
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Sheldon Brown said:

Bill said:

I have 9 speed dura ace sti levers and want to go back to
an 8 speed

Why?

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

drivetrain. Am I correct in assuming that I can still use
the 9 speed shifters with an 8 speed rear derailleur and
just stop it down? Thanks in

The derailer is not necessary. 8 and 9 speed Shimano
derailers, except for pre-1997 Dura Ace (if I understand
correctly), are interchangeable. The issue is how far the
cable is pulled for each click of the shifter, related to
how far between cogs in a given cassette.

In general, to change between a 9s and 8s drivetrain, all
you need is new shifters, cassette, and chain. I suppose you
could combine the "8 of 9 on 7" trick with an appropriate
spacer that would normally be used to put a 7s cassette on a
8/9s hub. See sheldonbrown.comk7.htmlOpen ↗

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

advance. Please email [email hidden]

Accepted netiquette is to NOT ask for email responses to
newsgroup questions.

Quoted message said:

That's correct. See my Dura-Ace Compatibility Page:
sheldonbrown.comdura aceOpen ↗

Sheldon, that page doesn't seem make it obvious, on a half-
assed reading, how 9s levers will work with an 8s cassette.
It's a bit confusing. The 8s cassette has larger cog
spacing, but maybe the pre-1997 Dura Ace derailer or other
derailer with alternate cable routing will work with 9s
cable pull?
--
Rick Onanian

Bill said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I have 9 speed dura ace sti levers and want to go back to
an 8 speed

Rick Onanian said:

Why?

Who cares? Seems silly to me too, but that's not the
question Bill asked.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

drivetrain. Am I correct in assuming that I can still use
the 9 speed shifters with an 8 speed rear derailleur and
just stop it down? Thanks in

The derailer is not necessary. 8 and 9 speed Shimano
derailers, except for pre-1997 Dura Ace (if I understand
correctly), are interchangeable. The issue is how far the
cable is pulled for each click of the shifter, related to
how far between cogs in a given cassette.

I interpreted this as implying that he already had an older
Dura-Ace rear derailer, and wanted to upgrade to STI.

Quoted message said:

In general, to change between a 9s and 8s drivetrain, all
you need is new shifters, cassette, and chain. I suppose
you could combine the "8 of 9 on 7" trick with an
appropriate spacer that would normally be used to put a 7s
cassette on a 8/9s hub. See
sheldonbrown.comk7.htmlOpen ↗

The "8 of 9 on 7" trick doesn't work for Dura-Ace hubs
onaccounta you can't get the threaded top sprockets any
more. This does work for Hyperglide hubs of all flavors.

Quoted message said:

I said:

Quoted message said:

See my Dura-Ace Compatibility Page: sheldonbrown.comduraOpen ↗
ace

Sheldon, that page doesn't seem make it obvious, on a half-
assed reading, how 9s levers will work with an 8s
cassette. It's a bit confusing. The 8s cassette has larger
cog spacing, but maybe the pre-1997 Dura Ace derailer or
other derailer with alternate cable routing will work with
9s cable pull?

That's exactly correct.

I did the best I could to make it clear. Did you not
understand the chart at http:/sheldonbrown.com/dura-
ace.html#indexing ?

I really tried to make it clear, and most readers seem to
understand it. Do you have any suggestions as to how I could
make it clearer?

Sheldon "Constructive Suggestions Welcome" Brown +--------------------------------
+
| Happy Reynolds Day! (5/31) |
+--------------------------------+ Harris Cyclery, West
Newton, Massachusetts Phone 617-244-9772 FAX 617-244-1041
harriscyclery.comharriscyclery.comOpen ↗ Hard-to-find parts shipped
Worldwide captainbike.comcaptainbike.comOpen ↗ sheldonbrown.comsheldonbrown.comOpen ↗

Quoted message said:

Bill said:

Quoted message said:

>drivetrain. Am I correct in assuming that I can still
>use the 9 speed shifters with an 8 speed rear derailleur
>and just stop it down? Thanks in

Sheldon Brown said:

I interpreted this as implying that he already had an older
Dura-Ace rear derailer, and wanted to upgrade to STI.

Hmm...we'll have to wait to hear back. I read it as follows:
"I have: Modern 9 speed Dura Ace bike; I want: 8 speed Can I
use my 9 speed shifters simply by buying an 8 speed derailer
and adjusting the high and low screws?"

I (Rick) said:

Quoted message said:

the "8 of 9 on 7" trick with an appropriate spacer that
would normally be used to put a 7s cassette on a 8/9s
hub. See

The "8 of 9 on 7" trick doesn't work for Dura-Ace hubs
onaccounta you can't get the threaded top sprockets any
more. This does work for Hyperglide hubs of all flavors.

Ah hah! I had no idea. I kind of imagine that doing "8 of 9
on 7" with the addition of a spacer to use it with an 8/9
speed hub is ass-backwards; then why not just put the extra
cog on. The only reason I imagined he wanted to do it was
for expected durability of the wider 8 speed chain...which
he couldn't use with "8 of 9 on 7".

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Sheldon, that page doesn't seem make it obvious, on a half-
assed reading, how 9s levers will work with an 8s
cassette. It's a bit confusing. The 8s cassette has
larger cog spacing, but maybe the pre-1997 Dura Ace
derailer or other derailer with alternate cable routing
will work with 9s cable pull?

That's exactly correct.

I did the best I could to make it clear. Did you not
understand the chart at http:/sheldonbrown.com/dura-
ace.html#indexing ?

Like I said, I only gave it a half-assed reading. So,
after some better examination, here's my newest
obfuscation: The chart seems to say that "any 9 speed
shifter" will index with a standard 8 speed cassette,
given a pre-1997 Dura Ace derailer (or a modern derailer
with alternate cable routing).

I think I've got it understood. That's pretty cool!

Now, I'd be interested in other combinations not listed
there. I've gone and burned my brain out figuring all that
out, and now I'm afraid I may have lost track: given the
same amount of cable pull at the shifter, does a pre-1997
Dura Ace derailer move sideways more than a modern derailer?

Quoted message said:

I really tried to make it clear, and most readers seem to
understand it. Do you have any suggestions as to how I
could make it clearer?

Yes. Get a smarter, more attentive reader. 😉

Put blank cells in the table horizontally between the rows
for the pre-1997 DA derailer and modern derailers. I think
that's part of what tripped me up...yeah, that's the ticket.
Maybe some sort of color-coding to show what matches with
what. Nah, don't dumb it down that much; then idiots like me
will understand. <G>

Quoted message said:

Sheldon "Constructive Suggestions Welcome" Brown

I don't know if I'd call them constructive, but I tried.
--
Rick Onanian

bildom-<< I have 9 speed dura ace sti levers and want to go
back to an 8 speed drivetrain. Am I correct in assuming that
I can still use the 9 speed shifters with an 8 speed rear
derailleur and just stop it down? >><BR><BR>

The only way to get 8s spacing for the shifting is to use a
pre 1997 DA 8s rear der with those shifters.

Peter Chisholm Vecchio's Bicicletteria 1833 Pearl St.
Boulder, CO, 80302
(303)440-3535 vecchios.comvecchios.comOpen ↗ "Ruote convenzionali
costruite eccezionalmente bene"

Almost sorry I asked the question in the first place, except it's been fun
watching you guys make such a HUGE deal of it. Do you think you could
complicate a simple question any more? Doesn't matter why - just cause.
Sorry about my lack of netiquette - you guys need to switch to decaf or get
out and ride or something.
"Rick Onanian" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Bill said:

>>drivetrain. Am I correct in assuming that I can still
>>use the 9 speed shifters with an 8 speed rear
>>derailleur and just stop it down? Thanks

in

Quoted message said:

Sheldon Brown said:

I interpreted this as implying that he already had an
older Dura-Ace rear derailer, and wanted to upgrade
to STI.

Hmm...we'll have to wait to hear back. I read it as
follows: "I have: Modern 9 speed Dura Ace bike; I want: 8
speed Can I use my 9 speed shifters simply by buying an 8
speed derailer and adjusting the high and low screws?"

I (Rick) said:

Quoted message said:

the "8 of 9 on 7" trick with an appropriate spacer that
would normally be used to put a 7s cassette on a 8/9s
hub. See

The "8 of 9 on 7" trick doesn't work for Dura-Ace hubs
onaccounta you can't get the threaded top sprockets any
more. This does work for Hyperglide hubs of all flavors.

Ah hah! I had no idea. I kind of imagine that doing "8 of
9 on 7" with the addition of a spacer to use it with an
8/9 speed hub is ass-backwards; then why not just put the
extra cog on. The only reason I imagined he wanted to do
it was for expected durability of the wider 8 speed
chain...which he couldn't use with "8 of 9 on 7".

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Sheldon, that page doesn't seem make it obvious, on a
half-assed reading, how 9s levers will work with an 8s
cassette. It's a bit confusing. The 8s cassette has
larger cog spacing, but maybe the pre-1997 Dura Ace
derailer or other derailer with alternate cable routing
will work with 9s cable pull?

That's exactly correct.

I did the best I could to make it clear. Did you not
understand the chart at http:/sheldonbrown.com/dura-
ace.html#indexing ?

Like I said, I only gave it a half-assed reading. So,
after some better examination, here's my newest
obfuscation: The chart seems to say that "any 9 speed
shifter" will index with a standard 8 speed cassette,
given a pre-1997 Dura Ace derailer (or a modern derailer
with alternate cable routing).

I think I've got it understood. That's pretty cool!

Now, I'd be interested in other combinations not listed
there. I've gone and burned my brain out figuring all that
out, and now I'm afraid I may have lost track: given the
same amount of cable pull at the shifter, does a pre-1997
Dura Ace derailer move sideways more than a modern
derailer?

Quoted message said:

I really tried to make it clear, and most readers seem to
understand it. Do you have any suggestions as to how I
could make it clearer?

Yes. Get a smarter, more attentive reader. 😉

Put blank cells in the table horizontally between the rows
for the pre-1997 DA derailer and modern derailers. I think
that's part of what tripped me up...yeah, that's the
ticket. Maybe some sort of color-coding to show what
matches with what. Nah, don't dumb it down that much; then
idiots like me will understand. <G>

Quoted message said:

Sheldon "Constructive Suggestions Welcome" Brown

I don't know if I'd call them constructive, but I tried.
--
Rick Onanian

Bill said:

I have 9 speed dura ace sti levers and want to go back to
an 8 speed drivetrain. Am I correct in assuming that I can
still use the 9 speed shifters with an 8 speed rear
derailleur and just stop it down? Thanks in advance. Please
email [email hidden]

If you find a DA 7402 rear derailleur, you'll shift 8sp
cassettes perfectly. I so happen to have one.

Bill said:

Almost sorry I asked the question in the first place,
except it's been fun watching you guys make such a HUGE
deal of it. Do you think you could complicate a simple
question any more?

Er...what exactly was the question, anyway? Did you want to
use an old 8 speed Dura Ace derailer with 9 speed shifters
and an 8 speed cassette, or do you want to know what
derailer to buy to match the 9 speed shifters to the 8 speed
cassette, or...umm..something else?

It's fun hashing this stuff out anyway. I learn about pre-
1997 Dura Ace weirdness, and Sheldon learns that I'm not
entirely sane. 😉

Quoted message said:

Doesn't matter why - just cause. Sorry about my lack of
netiquette - you guys need to switch to decaf or get out
and ride or something.

You went and did it again; this time you top-posted. Well,
at least you didn't ask if you should upgrade your lugged
steel tourer with quill stem and Mavic MA2s to an aluminum-with-CF-
stays racer with threadless stem and Ksyriums... now THAT
would be rude. <G>

My spell checker suggested "restrooms" for "Ksyriums".
--
Rick Onanian

Sheldon Brown said:

The "8 of 9 on 7" trick doesn't work for Dura-Ace hubs
onaccounta you can't get the threaded top sprockets any
more. This does work for Hyperglide hubs of all flavors.

Speaking of Dura-Ace 7 speed Uniglide hubs, it seems. For
extra perversity, I think you could fit 7 cogs of a 9 speed
cassette (with the HG spline ground down), plus the
original 7 speed threaded Uniglide top cog. It would be a
little thicker stack than 8 of 9, but there should still be
plenty of thread engagement. For most users the top cog is
used little and won't yet be worn out. I haven't actually
tried this to see if it shifts ok or if the chain rubs on
the dropout.

I said:

Quoted message said:

The "8 of 9 on 7" trick doesn't work for Dura-Ace hubs
onaccounta you can't get the threaded top sprockets any
more. This does work for Hyperglide hubs of all flavors.

Benjamin Weiner replied:

Quoted message said:

Speaking of Dura-Ace 7 speed Uniglide hubs, it seems. For
extra perversity, I think you could fit 7 cogs of a 9
speed cassette (with the HG spline ground down), plus the
original 7 speed threaded Uniglide top cog. It would be a
little thicker stack than 8 of 9, but there should still
be plenty of thread engagement.

Yes, that would prob'ly work...IF you could come up with a
suitable sprocket. Dura-Ace Uniglide hubs used a smaller
diameter thread for this position, to enable them to take 11
tooth sprockets.

Quoted message said:

For most users the top cog is used little and won't yet be
worn out. I haven't actually tried this to see if it
shifts ok or if the chain rubs on the dropout.

My observation is that for most users, the smallest
sprockets wear out first. Thats why they're so scarce.
Also, with Uniglide, the splined sprockets were reversible
so you could get double lifespan out of all but the little
threaded sprocket.

Sheldon "Fewer Teeth, Faster Wear" Brown +----------------------------------------------------
+
| A little inaccuracy sometimes saves tons of |
| explanation. --H.H.Munro ("Saki"😉(1870-1916) |
+----------------------------------------------------+
Harris Cyclery, West Newton, Massachusetts Phone 617-244-
9772 FAX 617-244-1041 harriscyclery.comharriscyclery.comOpen ↗ Hard-to-find
parts shipped Worldwide captainbike.comcaptainbike.comOpen ↗
sheldonbrown.comsheldonbrown.comOpen ↗