dura ace sti compatibility?

Bill said:

I have 9 speed dura ace sti levers and want to go back to an 8 speed
drivetrain. Am I correct in assuming that I can still use the 9 speed
shifters with an 8 speed rear derailleur and just stop it down? Thanks in
advance. Please email [email hidden]

That's correct. See my Dura-Ace Compatibility Page:

http://sheldonbrown.com/dura-ace

Sheldon "Interchangeabilitude" Brown
+--------------------------------+
| Happy Reynolds Day! (5/31) |
+--------------------------------+
Harris Cyclery, West Newton, Massachusetts
Phone 617-244-9772 FAX 617-244-1041
http://harriscyclery.com
Hard-to-find parts shipped Worldwide
http://captainbike.com http://sheldonbrown.com

Sheldon Brown said:

Bill said:

I have 9 speed dura ace sti levers and want to go back to an 8 speed

Why?

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

drivetrain. Am I correct in assuming that I can still use the 9 speed
shifters with an 8 speed rear derailleur and just stop it down? Thanks in

The derailer is not necessary. 8 and 9 speed Shimano derailers,
except for pre-1997 Dura Ace (if I understand correctly), are
interchangeable. The issue is how far the cable is pulled for each
click of the shifter, related to how far between cogs in a given
cassette.

In general, to change between a 9s and 8s drivetrain, all you need
is new shifters, cassette, and chain. I suppose you could combine
the "8 of 9 on 7" trick with an appropriate spacer that would
normally be used to put a 7s cassette on a 8/9s hub. See
http://www.sheldonbrown.com/k7.html#up7

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

advance. Please email [email hidden]

Accepted netiquette is to NOT ask for email responses to newsgroup
questions.

Quoted message said:

That's correct. See my Dura-Ace Compatibility Page:
http://sheldonbrown.com/dura-ace

Sheldon, that page doesn't seem make it obvious, on a half-assed
reading, how 9s levers will work with an 8s cassette. It's a bit
confusing. The 8s cassette has larger cog spacing, but maybe the
pre-1997 Dura Ace derailer or other derailer with alternate cable
routing will work with 9s cable pull?
--
Rick Onanian

Bill said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I have 9 speed dura ace sti levers and want to go back to an 8 speed

Rick Onanian said:

Why?

Who cares? Seems silly to me too, but that's not the question Bill asked.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

drivetrain. Am I correct in assuming that I can still use the 9 speed
shifters with an 8 speed rear derailleur and just stop it down? Thanks in

The derailer is not necessary. 8 and 9 speed Shimano derailers,
except for pre-1997 Dura Ace (if I understand correctly), are
interchangeable. The issue is how far the cable is pulled for each
click of the shifter, related to how far between cogs in a given
cassette.

I interpreted this as implying that he already had an older Dura-Ace
rear derailer, and wanted to upgrade to STI.

Quoted message said:

In general, to change between a 9s and 8s drivetrain, all you need
is new shifters, cassette, and chain. I suppose you could combine
the "8 of 9 on 7" trick with an appropriate spacer that would
normally be used to put a 7s cassette on a 8/9s hub. See
http://www.sheldonbrown.com/k7.html#up7

The "8 of 9 on 7" trick doesn't work for Dura-Ace hubs onaccounta you
can't get the threaded top sprockets any more. This does work for
Hyperglide hubs of all flavors.

Quoted message said:

I said:

Quoted message said:

See my Dura-Ace Compatibility Page:
http://sheldonbrown.com/dura-ace

Sheldon, that page doesn't seem make it obvious, on a half-assed
reading, how 9s levers will work with an 8s cassette. It's a bit
confusing. The 8s cassette has larger cog spacing, but maybe the
pre-1997 Dura Ace derailer or other derailer with alternate cable
routing will work with 9s cable pull?

That's exactly correct.

I did the best I could to make it clear. Did you not understand the
chart at http:/sheldonbrown.com/dura-ace.html#indexing ?

I really tried to make it clear, and most readers seem to understand it.
Do you have any suggestions as to how I could make it clearer?

Sheldon "Constructive Suggestions Welcome" Brown
+--------------------------------+
| Happy Reynolds Day! (5/31) |
+--------------------------------+
Harris Cyclery, West Newton, Massachusetts
Phone 617-244-9772 FAX 617-244-1041
http://harriscyclery.com
Hard-to-find parts shipped Worldwide
http://captainbike.com http://sheldonbrown.com

Quoted message said:

Bill said:

Quoted message said:

>drivetrain. Am I correct in assuming that I can still use the 9 speed
>shifters with an 8 speed rear derailleur and just stop it down? Thanks in

Sheldon Brown said:

I interpreted this as implying that he already had an older Dura-Ace
rear derailer, and wanted to upgrade to STI.

Hmm...we'll have to wait to hear back. I read it as follows:
"I have: Modern 9 speed Dura Ace bike;
I want: 8 speed
Can I use my 9 speed shifters simply by buying an 8 speed derailer
and adjusting the high and low screws?"

I (Rick) said:

Quoted message said:

the "8 of 9 on 7" trick with an appropriate spacer that would
normally be used to put a 7s cassette on a 8/9s hub. See

The "8 of 9 on 7" trick doesn't work for Dura-Ace hubs onaccounta you
can't get the threaded top sprockets any more. This does work for
Hyperglide hubs of all flavors.

Ah hah! I had no idea. I kind of imagine that doing "8 of 9 on 7"
with the addition of a spacer to use it with an 8/9 speed hub is
ass-backwards; then why not just put the extra cog on. The only
reason I imagined he wanted to do it was for expected durability of
the wider 8 speed chain...which he couldn't use with "8 of 9 on 7".

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Sheldon, that page doesn't seem make it obvious, on a half-assed
reading, how 9s levers will work with an 8s cassette. It's a bit
confusing. The 8s cassette has larger cog spacing, but maybe the
pre-1997 Dura Ace derailer or other derailer with alternate cable
routing will work with 9s cable pull?

That's exactly correct.

I did the best I could to make it clear. Did you not understand the
chart at http:/sheldonbrown.com/dura-ace.html#indexing ?

Like I said, I only gave it a half-assed reading. So, after some
better examination, here's my newest obfuscation:
The chart seems to say that "any 9 speed shifter" will index with a
standard 8 speed cassette, given a pre-1997 Dura Ace derailer (or a
modern derailer with alternate cable routing).

I think I've got it understood. That's pretty cool!

Now, I'd be interested in other combinations not listed there. I've
gone and burned my brain out figuring all that out, and now I'm
afraid I may have lost track: given the same amount of cable pull at
the shifter, does a pre-1997 Dura Ace derailer move sideways more
than a modern derailer?

Quoted message said:

I really tried to make it clear, and most readers seem to understand it.
Do you have any suggestions as to how I could make it clearer?

Yes. Get a smarter, more attentive reader. 😉

Put blank cells in the table horizontally between the rows for the
pre-1997 DA derailer and modern derailers. I think that's part of
what tripped me up...yeah, that's the ticket. Maybe some sort of
color-coding to show what matches with what. Nah, don't dumb it down
that much; then idiots like me will understand. <G>

Quoted message said:

Sheldon "Constructive Suggestions Welcome" Brown

I don't know if I'd call them constructive, but I tried.
--
Rick Onanian

bildom-<< I have 9 speed dura ace sti levers and want to go back to an 8 speed
drivetrain. Am I correct in assuming that I can still use the 9 speed
shifters with an 8 speed rear derailleur and just stop it down? >><BR><BR>

The only way to get 8s spacing for the shifting is to use a pre 1997 DA 8s rear
der with those shifters.

Peter Chisholm
Vecchio's Bicicletteria
1833 Pearl St.
Boulder, CO, 80302
(303)440-3535
http://www.vecchios.com
"Ruote convenzionali costruite eccezionalmente bene"

Almost sorry I asked the question in the first place, except it's been fun
watching you guys make such a HUGE deal of it. Do you think you could
complicate a simple question any more? Doesn't matter why - just cause.
Sorry about my lack of netiquette - you guys need to switch to decaf or get
out and ride or something.
"Rick Onanian" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Bill said:

>>drivetrain. Am I correct in assuming that I can still use the 9 speed
>>shifters with an 8 speed rear derailleur and just stop it down? Thanks

in

Quoted message said:

Sheldon Brown said:

I interpreted this as implying that he already had an older Dura-Ace
rear derailer, and wanted to upgrade to STI.

Hmm...we'll have to wait to hear back. I read it as follows:
"I have: Modern 9 speed Dura Ace bike;
I want: 8 speed
Can I use my 9 speed shifters simply by buying an 8 speed derailer
and adjusting the high and low screws?"

I (Rick) said:

Quoted message said:

the "8 of 9 on 7" trick with an appropriate spacer that would
normally be used to put a 7s cassette on a 8/9s hub. See

The "8 of 9 on 7" trick doesn't work for Dura-Ace hubs onaccounta you
can't get the threaded top sprockets any more. This does work for
Hyperglide hubs of all flavors.

Ah hah! I had no idea. I kind of imagine that doing "8 of 9 on 7"
with the addition of a spacer to use it with an 8/9 speed hub is
ass-backwards; then why not just put the extra cog on. The only
reason I imagined he wanted to do it was for expected durability of
the wider 8 speed chain...which he couldn't use with "8 of 9 on 7".

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Sheldon, that page doesn't seem make it obvious, on a half-assed
reading, how 9s levers will work with an 8s cassette. It's a bit
confusing. The 8s cassette has larger cog spacing, but maybe the
pre-1997 Dura Ace derailer or other derailer with alternate cable
routing will work with 9s cable pull?

That's exactly correct.

I did the best I could to make it clear. Did you not understand the
chart at http:/sheldonbrown.com/dura-ace.html#indexing ?

Like I said, I only gave it a half-assed reading. So, after some
better examination, here's my newest obfuscation:
The chart seems to say that "any 9 speed shifter" will index with a
standard 8 speed cassette, given a pre-1997 Dura Ace derailer (or a
modern derailer with alternate cable routing).

I think I've got it understood. That's pretty cool!

Now, I'd be interested in other combinations not listed there. I've
gone and burned my brain out figuring all that out, and now I'm
afraid I may have lost track: given the same amount of cable pull at
the shifter, does a pre-1997 Dura Ace derailer move sideways more
than a modern derailer?

Quoted message said:

I really tried to make it clear, and most readers seem to understand it.
Do you have any suggestions as to how I could make it clearer?

Yes. Get a smarter, more attentive reader. 😉

Put blank cells in the table horizontally between the rows for the
pre-1997 DA derailer and modern derailers. I think that's part of
what tripped me up...yeah, that's the ticket. Maybe some sort of
color-coding to show what matches with what. Nah, don't dumb it down
that much; then idiots like me will understand. <G>

Quoted message said:

Sheldon "Constructive Suggestions Welcome" Brown

I don't know if I'd call them constructive, but I tried.
--
Rick Onanian

Bill said:

I have 9 speed dura ace sti levers and want to go back to an 8 speed
drivetrain. Am I correct in assuming that I can still use the 9 speed
shifters with an 8 speed rear derailleur and just stop it down? Thanks in
advance. Please email [email hidden]

If you find a DA 7402 rear derailleur, you'll shift 8sp cassettes
perfectly. I so happen to have one.

Bill said:

Almost sorry I asked the question in the first place, except it's been fun
watching you guys make such a HUGE deal of it. Do you think you could
complicate a simple question any more?

Er...what exactly was the question, anyway? Did you want to use an
old 8 speed Dura Ace derailer with 9 speed shifters and an 8 speed
cassette, or do you want to know what derailer to buy to match the 9
speed shifters to the 8 speed cassette, or...umm..something else?

It's fun hashing this stuff out anyway. I learn about pre-1997 Dura
Ace weirdness, and Sheldon learns that I'm not entirely sane. 😉

Quoted message said:

Doesn't matter why - just cause.
Sorry about my lack of netiquette - you guys need to switch to decaf or get
out and ride or something.

You went and did it again; this time you top-posted. Well, at least
you didn't ask if you should upgrade your lugged steel tourer with
quill stem and Mavic MA2s to an aluminum-with-CF-stays racer with
threadless stem and Ksyriums... now THAT would be rude. <G>

My spell checker suggested "restrooms" for "Ksyriums".
--
Rick Onanian

Sheldon Brown said:

The "8 of 9 on 7" trick doesn't work for Dura-Ace hubs onaccounta you
can't get the threaded top sprockets any more. This does work for
Hyperglide hubs of all flavors.

Speaking of Dura-Ace 7 speed Uniglide hubs, it seems.
For extra perversity, I think you could fit 7 cogs of a
9 speed cassette (with the HG spline ground down), plus
the original 7 speed threaded Uniglide top cog. It would
be a little thicker stack than 8 of 9, but there should
still be plenty of thread engagement. For most users the
top cog is used little and won't yet be worn out. I haven't
actually tried this to see if it shifts ok or if the chain
rubs on the dropout.

I said:

Quoted message said:

The "8 of 9 on 7" trick doesn't work for Dura-Ace hubs onaccounta you
can't get the threaded top sprockets any more. This does work for
Hyperglide hubs of all flavors.

Benjamin Weiner replied:

Quoted message said:

Speaking of Dura-Ace 7 speed Uniglide hubs, it seems.
For extra perversity, I think you could fit 7 cogs of a
9 speed cassette (with the HG spline ground down), plus
the original 7 speed threaded Uniglide top cog. It would
be a little thicker stack than 8 of 9, but there should
still be plenty of thread engagement.

Yes, that would prob'ly work...IF you could come up with a suitable
sprocket. Dura-Ace Uniglide hubs used a smaller diameter thread for
this position, to enable them to take 11 tooth sprockets.

Quoted message said:

For most users the
top cog is used little and won't yet be worn out. I haven't
actually tried this to see if it shifts ok or if the chain
rubs on the dropout.

My observation is that for most users, the smallest sprockets wear out
first. Thats why they're so scarce. Also, with Uniglide, the splined
sprockets were reversible so you could get double lifespan out of all
but the little threaded sprocket.

Sheldon "Fewer Teeth, Faster Wear" Brown
+----------------------------------------------------+
| A little inaccuracy sometimes saves tons of |
| explanation. --H.H.Munro ("Saki"😉(1870-1916) |
+----------------------------------------------------+
Harris Cyclery, West Newton, Massachusetts
Phone 617-244-9772 FAX 617-244-1041
http://harriscyclery.com
Hard-to-find parts shipped Worldwide
http://captainbike.com http://sheldonbrown.com