Dura-ace instalation

Quick! Someone got charged the sticker price! call the United Nations!...

As a customer and a former employee of bike shops I am always puzzled by the number of customers who want to be rewarded just for being customers. On the one hand you are pleading loyalty to the shop (I think) but on the other you're also prepared to check the prices out online. What gives?

Of course a webshop will be cheaper. They usually grey import behind the backs of the official distributors (no chance of a Shimano factory warranty then), and they have no overheads apart from a web server and a small warehousing space. They don't have a workshop to maintain; and would you ever get a discount from a webshop for being a "good customer"? Definitely not. They dont have to care who you are because they never meet you in person.

Yes I don't expect the bike shop to give the parts away but since I have been a good customer - bought the 4 bikes , always go to him for tuneups and repairs, I would have liked the bike shop owner to at least cut the price (maybe by $50).

tafi said:

Quick! Someone got charged the sticker price! call the United Nations!...

As a customer and a former employee of bike shops I am always puzzled by the number of customers who want to be rewarded just for being customers. On the one hand you are pleading loyalty to the shop (I think) but on the other you're also prepared to check the prices out online. What gives?

Of course a webshop will be cheaper. They usually grey import behind the backs of the official distributors (no chance of a Shimano factory warranty then), and they have no overheads apart from a web server and a small warehousing space. They don't have a workshop to maintain; and would you ever get a discount from a webshop for being a "good customer"? Definitely not. They dont have to care who you are because they never meet you in person.

Jman said:

Does if take any special skills to install all the 7950 Dura-ace components -- breaks, shift levers, front & rear deraillers? Should the mechanic require the use of torque wrenches?

I had my local shop install a new crank as par of a total tear down and build up. He charged me full price ($700) for the crank when I could get the same part in the mid 5550s at performance.com. Given that I was already paying for the overall tuneup, I would of thought he would of worked with me a bit on the price. I also have purchased 4 mid priced bikes (2-3K each)) in the last 2 years.

So I figure that it is time to take my business elswhere. I live in New Lenox IL and wonder if any of you know of a good mechanic in the area?

With the exception of installing headsets and facing bottom bracket shells on old school frames everything is pretty easy and can be accomplished by standard hand tools and following the step by step instructions that Shimano provide.

There's also a bunch of "how to..." guides to give a general overview of installing a certain component up on the Shimano USA website.

If you have lots of carbon bits then a torque wrench and suitable allen wrench "sockets" and locktite threadlocker compound (available from most auto parts stores - the gel stick is easier and cleaner for long term use) is pretty much required.

Jman said:

Yes I don't expect the bike shop to give the parts away but since I have been a good customer - bought the 4 bikes , always go to him for tuneups and repairs, I would have liked the bike shop owner to at least cut the price (maybe by $50).

Most bike shops live on the edge of margin. Discounting a part $50 means he loses money on it. $700 is a normal margin just to keep the lights on, no more. Ya look around at all sorts of keen bike stuff so you 'assume' the bike shop guy has a Mercedes out back..nope.

Thanks Swampy this is the info I needed.

swampy1970 said:

With the exception of installing headsets and facing bottom bracket shells on old school frames everything is pretty easy and can be accomplished by standard hand tools and following the step by step instructions that Shimano provide.

There's also a bunch of "how to..." guides to give a general overview of installing a certain component up on the Shimano USA website.

If you have lots of carbon bits then a torque wrench and suitable allen wrench "sockets" and locktite threadlocker compound (available from most auto parts stores - the gel stick is easier and cleaner for long term use) is pretty much required.

I have seen many of your posts and believe what you are telling me. The fact that Performance Bike is selling the same crank for $480 made me think that the bike shop would be paying less than that.

Peter@vecchios said:

Most bike shops live on the edge of margin. Discounting a part $50 means he loses money on it. $700 is a normal margin just to keep the lights on, no more. Ya look around at all sorts of keen bike stuff so you 'assume' the bike shop guy has a Mercedes out back..nope.

Jman said:

Does if take any special skills to install all the 7950 Dura-ace components -- breaks, shift levers, front & rear deraillers? Should the mechanic require the use of torque wrenches?

I had my local shop install a new crank as par of a total tear down and build up. He charged me full price ($700) for the crank when I could get the same part in the mid 5550s at performance.com. Given that I was already paying for the overall tuneup, I would of thought he would of worked with me a bit on the price. I also have purchased 4 mid priced bikes (2-3K each)) in the last 2 years.

So I figure that it is time to take my business elswhere. I live in New Lenox IL and wonder if any of you know of a good mechanic in the area?

I guess THE question you have to ask yourself is "How far are you willing to travel?" ...

And, "How unhappy are you with the current situation?" for whatever reason.

TURIN BICYCLE in Evanston will show you how to do whatever you want ... with THEIR tools & their work bench ... at least, that was true in the past.
[INDENT]If you can figure out where to park you car for a few hours (Evanston has a multi-level parking structure), you can then ride NORTH on Chicago Avenue which merges with Sheridan Road (within a few blocks) ...

Stop Lights are limited between Evanston & the Great Lakes Naval Station. The only (?) thing you may have to be aware of is that just north of Tower Road there is a short, steep drop and a hard left hand turn at the bottom of the the drop ...

If you go for the ride up Sheridan Road early in the morning, then stop at Turin on your way back ...
[/INDENT]As swampy1970 said, you can do a lot of installation and/or maintenance yourself ...

I will qualify that by saying what I've said in the past, the only two groups of people who shouldn't do their own wrenching are surgeons and hand models.

If DIY seems like a good idea, then you can find most of the HOW-TO information at www.parktool.com -- they want you to buy their tools ... most of the non-bike-specific tools can be bought at Sears (that's were I bought my first set of Metric tools a long-long time ago), Harbor Freight, Home Depot, etc.

Also, borrow-or buy ZINN AND THE ART OF ROAD BIKE MAINTENANCE.

Keep in mind that if you're shopping at an LBS you can negotiate on the price of anything they've got there, it's not like you're shopping at Wal-Mart where the cashier doesn't care about sales...well unless you're shopping at a Wal-Mart-esque LBS, i.e., Performance, stores with multiple chains.

Then again I do negotiate with Performance when I can find a better deal elsewhere...usually they comply since the prices are already marked up so high, but sometimes they don't. Hey, the worse thing they can say is "no."

Jman said:

I have seen many of your posts and believe what you are telling me. The fact that Performance Bike is selling the same crank for $480 made me think that the bike shop would be paying less than that.

Performance probably buys and sells thousands of these(hundreds) and probably gets a volume discount and gets these directly from shimano, Japan. PLUS Performance can sell these a few bucks over wholesale prices and still make some $ because of VOLUME. The little bike shop gets these from a distributor for about $450, divide by .65...get $700, which is MSRP, btw. (shimano may not like Performance discounting 2010 product so deeply)...but as I said, your bike shop is selling at a recognized margin to break even, nothing more.

Performance has '2009' product, can discount 'last years' product w/o hearing from shimano, even tho the 2010 crank is identical.

Give the LBS a break, allow him to stay in biz or they will be.............gone.

Peter@vecchios said:

Performance probably buys and sells thousands of these(hundreds) and probably gets a volume discount and gets these directly from shimano, Japan. PLUS Performance can sell these a few bucks over wholesale prices and still make some $ because of VOLUME. The little bike shop gets these from a distributor for about $450, divide by .65...get $700, which is MSRP, btw. (shimano may not like Performance discounting 2010 product so deeply)...but as I said, your bike shop is selling at a recognized margin to break even, nothing more.

Performance has '2009' product, can discount 'last years' product w/o hearing from shimano, even tho the 2010 crank is identical.

Give the LBS a break, allow him to stay in biz or they will be.............gone.

+1.

Peter@vecchios said:

Performance probably buys and sells thousands of these(hundreds) and probably gets a volume discount and gets these directly from shimano, Japan. PLUS Performance can sell these a few bucks over wholesale prices and still make some $ because of VOLUME. The little bike shop gets these from a distributor for about $450, divide by .65...get $700, which is MSRP, btw. (shimano may not like Performance discounting 2010 product so deeply)...but as I said, your bike shop is selling at a recognized margin to break even, nothing more.

Performance has '2009' product, can discount 'last years' product w/o hearing from shimano, even tho the 2010 crank is identical.

Give the LBS a break, allow him to stay in biz or they will be.............gone.

the least he could do is give him a free tune up once and a while if not for the remainder of his time as a customer on all four bikes he's purchased from this store which easily justifies that much. many stores do that service for free and the store could make money with the other services such as crank installations and then this conversation wouldn't be taking place. it should even out in both parties favor, not just the store owner.

roadhouse said:

the least he could do is give him a free tune up once and a while if not for the remainder of his time as a customer on all four bikes he's purchased from this store which easily justifies that much. many stores do that service for free and the store could make money with the other services such as crank installations and then this conversation wouldn't be taking place. it should even out in both parties favor, not just the store owner.

Why, they only did a teardown and group installation. They didn't sell him a bike. There's nothing uneven in the deal. As Peter said, bike shops don't have the margin that big chains and internet shops have. They don't have economy of scale in parts sales. Let's not forget that a business is built around earning a living and making a profit. How much profit is an LBS supposed to give away, eh? If paying retail really twists someone's [censored], then said person can buy on the web and learn to do their own maintenance and wrenching. Just don't complain when that internet shop gives you d1ck for customer service.

i just want to respond. thanks.

roadhouse said:

the least he could do is give him a free tune up once and a while if not for the remainder of his time as a customer on all four bikes he's purchased from this store which easily justifies that much. many stores do that service for free and the store could make money with the other services such as crank installations and then this conversation wouldn't be taking place. it should even out in both parties favor, not just the store owner.

Charging a fair price for parts and service is 'evening it out'. Discounting parts and service is putting the bike shop at a disadvantage, not 'even' at all. I guess I just don't understand customers when they think asking for a pair $ in return for parts and service is somehow 'ripping the customer off' and the bike shop has to take the beating. Do you have a car? When you get it serviced do you ask for discounts, brings parts in to install, ask for a break on parts?

Peter@vecchios said:

Charging a fair price for parts and service is 'evening it out'. Discounting parts and service is putting the bike shop at a disadvantage, not 'even' at all. I guess I just don't understand customers when they think asking for a pair $ in return for parts and service is somehow 'ripping the customer off' and the bike shop has to take the beating. Do you have a car? When you get it serviced do you ask for discounts, brings parts in to install, ask for a break on parts?

let me ask yo this, do you know each and every personal stores mark up rate per bike? all things most certainly are pawn shop-ish in the ability to create revenue and discuss the change for the overall cost and effect from both parties. regardless that, cycling is much more than just a business to all involved and so it shouldn't even come down to that but since it has, to myself four bikes in the $2K to 3K without looking at any receipts from the owner of the shop or the customer who paid an in the area of 10K to 12K is a joke to have to be able to pay for tune ups.

i work on my truck myself for all the small things such as oil changes and tune-ups, alternators, starters, you get the idea and when work such as front end work is required as it recently has, it'll be repaired at a local and very reliable and respected but small shop that will install both of the upper control arms w/ ball joints along with both of the lower ball joints which i myself am purchasing new from the auto store for the grand total of $175. try that at a bike shop. well, you could, not just the one in question.

roadhouse said:

let me ask yo this, do you know each and every personal stores mark up rate per bike? all things most certainly are pawn shop-ish in the ability to create revenue and discuss the change for the overall cost and effect from both parties. regardless that, cycling is much more than just a business to all involved and so it shouldn't even come down to that but since it has, to myself four bikes in the $2K to 3K without looking at any receipts from the owner of the shop or the customer who paid an in the area of 10K to 12K is a joke to have to be able to pay for tune ups.

i work on my truck myself for all the small things such as oil changes and tune-ups, alternators, starters, you get the idea and when work such as front end work is required as it recently has, it'll be repaired at a local and very reliable and respected but small shop that will install both of the upper control arms w/ ball joints along with both of the lower ball joints which i myself am purchasing new from the auto store for the grand total of $175. try that at a bike shop. well, you could, not just the one in question.

Considering bike fit, assembly, a bike shop barely breaks even on a bicycle. A bicycle that sells for 3k costs the bike ship about $2000, not counting the $, cost to fit and asemble. That's about 3 hours, about $200 cost.

"regardless that, cycling is much more than just a business to all involved and so it shouldn't even come down to that"

Bike shops that think a bicycle business is something other than a business..so they need to lose money to keep people happy and in their store are going to go bye-bye.

It's about taking money, putting it into the cash register...then in the morning, paying bills outta that. Payroll, insurance, rent, utilities, cost of goods(remember, for every $1 sold, it costs you about $.65/.70), credit card processing, bank fees, bookkeeping fees($1000 for the shop IRS filing)..and on it goes.

Yep, bicycles are an amazing machine but it's still a for profit business. Profit is that which pays the bills, not that which goes into the owners pocket.

Peter, thanks for sharing some details of your business. Many people here probably don't know about Vecchio's, that you're located on an expensive street in an expensive city with a lot of bikes and a lot of competition. If you weren't offering outstanding value and service to your customers, you wouldn't survive among the dozen or more other shops and maintain the top-notch reputation you enjoy.

dhk2 said:

Peter, thanks for sharing some details of your business. Many people here probably don't know about Vecchio's, that you're located on an expensive street in an expensive city with a lot of bikes and a lot of competition. If you weren't offering outstanding value and service to your customers, you wouldn't survive among the dozen or more other shops and maintain the top-notch reputation you enjoy.

Thanks for the kind words. Yes, there are 6 bicycle shops w/i 20 blocks of us. More bike shops in Boulder than metro Denver. Altho not a 'struggle', it is a labor of 'like'. I think we recognize the market, don't get sweated up when somebody brings in a $800 Red group or $1800 SuperRecord group for us to install. We look at Excel and Performance prices all the time(with Colorado Cyclist, 3 major MO places w/i 100 miles, 2 w/i 3 miles) and find even with a normal margin, are often the same or less expensive on lots of stuff. MO/web's lower prices are sometimes a perception, not actual fact. AND if somebody buys a mostly overseas MO/Web sale thing, perhaps gray or black market, and it goes south..yes we warranty it but if the manufacturer deems it gray/black and refuses warranty...well, live and learn.

It's about bicycles, a wonderful machine but I want to be here tomorrow. I don't 'match prices', I don't install for free, I try to remind some that even tho I make a few bucks over wholesale on something, if it's below that magic 35%, I lose money.

Peter@vecchios said:

It's about bicycles, a wonderful machine but I want to be here tomorrow. I don't 'match prices', I don't install for free, I try to remind some that even tho I make a few bucks over wholesale on something, if it's below that magic 35%, I lose money.

it would seem that if jman was your customer and your store was the one question, you have lost much more than just that already.