Drop bar replacements?

"Jon Senior" <jon_AT_restlesslemon_DOT_co_DOT_uk> wrote

Quoted message said:

DavidR said:

I don't accept that the statement "it is different" is sufficient. I
don't understand why a longitudinal grip is better than a transverse one
when
I see a transverse one to be grip of choice (when posture isn't a
factor).

OK. A simple test.

Stand up. Let your arms and hands relax so they hand by your sides. Do
your palms face roughly

a) Towards your body.
b) Behind you.

If you answered (b) then I can understand your preference for
"transverse" bars. Myself (And everyone else I've ever had do this[1]), I
answer (a).

I doubt you have done this test or observed it properly because the answer
is none of the above!

The plane of the palms are perpendicular to the elbow hinge axes which in
turn meet at right angles behind the back. Bring the forerms up, the hands
automatically meet and the palms form two sides of a pyramid.

Look at pictures taken of people riding near the hoods and a very popular
position seems to be palms face down and fingers pointing sideways (the
trolley #2 position). This pulls the elbows in so that they line up like
door hinges - an excellent recipe for shoulder ache.

The alternative is, of course, the 'classic' position of palms at the sides
and thumbs hooked in the notch. It still requires some elbow tuck and seems
to need a very precise set up to avoid tiring the thumbs.

Quoted message said:

My fixer now has flat bars. I'm planning on putting a stem extender on to
move them further forward, but even so my primary riding position is the
bar ends. I have in fact made a poor man's "wing" bar.

OK bar ends have a longitudinal component. The difference is that they are
typically posioned at right angles to the forearm and allow the hands to
spread the thrust over a large area. In contrast, the forward part of a
drop bar is angled away from the thrust which then has to be applied
through some delicate part of the hand wedged into the notch.

Quoted message said:

The amazing thing is... you're still harping on about this. You
relentless refusal to entertain the idea that you might in fact, be alone
is commendable, but extreme. Get a grip! ;-)

If it was a singular problem then I would concur. When I see lots of riders
looking awkward, I consider there must be something wrong.

"Pete Biggs" <[email hidden]> wrote

Quoted message said:

DavidR said:

"Peter Clinch" <[email hidden]> wrote

Quoted message said:

DavidR wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

No, just realise that you not liking them doesn't mean they're bad
for everyone. If you don't like them there are plenty of options.
If drops were right for everyone there wouldn't be the options.

If it was just me I would accept it as an individual dislike. I don't
make any apologies for slagging them off when I see plenty of people
looking awkward on them.

And I don't apologise for defending them when I know how well they can
work.

Naturally.

Quoted message said:

I still get the impression that you don't fully appreciate all the
ways they can be well used and all the advantages. I'd rather help
"awkward" people with drops get more from them when possible, but it
seems
you'd rather the baby was slung out with the bath water -- not a totally
wonderful idea when there is no alternative that does everything drops do
better.

The outstanding thing about drop bars is the drop. But having it really
does compromise other positions.

But throwing the "baby was slung out with the bath water" depends on
whether you imagine I end up with an alternative configuration by accident
or design. If I decided on certain parameters, don't you think that if they
were achievable with drop bars, then I would use drop bars?

I am sure I have said before what I am striving to do but keep getting
shouted down by the "nothing's wrong with drops" merchants.

Lets go over it again. I want:
~ palm support on the weight bearing part below the little finger; the
reason for including a bit of bar outboard of the bar ends; also, bar ends
toe in so walking along them keeps that part supported
~ a slight bend in the elbows (for shoulder comfort), which implies the
forearms will toe in; bar ends give this; drop bars assume the arms are
parallel
~ fingers to remain in line with the wrists in the position where I want to
spend most riding time; most pictures of people on drops in this body
position show fingers pointing out (supermarket trolley #2 position)
~ complete freedom for the thumbs
~ better brake access

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Do people go for the posture or the hand grip (assuming the 'behind
the hoods' is the dominant position)?

Bad assumption. Any one of the three or four main positions can be the
dominant position, depending on the person and their ride.

Possibly. Many people have a different bike for the 'ride'. But I suspect
there could be more variety to offer the 'person' rather than the one size
fits all design of bar. Looking through the catogues for drop bars, though
there seem to be many, they all follow the same set of (arguably right or
wrong) principles.

Quoted message said:

The debate should not be about transverse versus longitudinal grip
because
both drop and straight bars provide BOTH (when bar ends are used with
straights). It's about the different sets of compromises involved.

See my other post about bar ends.

Quoted message said:

Do not underestimate how good the "tops" position is on drop bars (or
positions, because there is an infinite number, including one next to the
stem). The brake levers being more than a couple of inches away from the
fingers doesn't matter for the /majority of the time/ on all sorts of
roads, including busy urban ones, especially considering that the typical
cyclist is not traveling much faster than his/her average speed for most
of the time (that's time, not necessarily distance).

Quoted message said:

It's still quick and easy enough to brake when required: the switch is
easier than bar-ends to grips on straight bars

I disagree. But that probably won't surprise you. The hand movement from an
off-the-brake position on drops is far more complex and invariably leaves
the arms at slightly different lengths and loads.

Quoted message said:

But for those who want to have their cake and eat it, there are extension
levers that allow braking from the tops in addition from hoods and drops
(modern ones that work in a superior way to old "suicide levers"😉. How
about that: braking from *three* positions!

Yes I know about those. I doubt they would be of benefit.

"Peter Clinch" <[email hidden]> wrote

Quoted message said:

DavidR wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

If it was just me I would accept it as an individual dislike. I don't
make
any apologies for slagging them off when I see plenty of people looking
awkward on them.

When I first got drop bars it was a teenager. I 100% admit I wanted then
for the racer image, but I was a teenager.

<......>

I started with drop bars about 20 years ago on a commuter. I did that for
about 2 years without any other kind of riding then had a 5 year break .
Drops had seemed pointless then (the combination of distant brakes and the
unused drop) so returned with flats to get the brakes in a better position.

About 3 years ago curiosity overcame me and I think it took less than about
10 miles to get the hang of them again. Yep, it's a nice bike overall and
I like giving it an occasional spin. On other bikes I sometimes wouldn't
mind dropping down occasionally. But so long as the position is reasonably
prone (see below) the drop does get in the way (in the sense that the drop
determines the brake layout and various curves and angles) for the more
frequently used positions.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

The thing, is there are few real options
because it is automatically assumed that someone wanting a stretch
position is a drop bar and an upright position is a transverse bar. It
isn't just that the hand positions are different - the default body
position is
also different. To change the hand grip but retain the posture, the
owner needs to add money, thought & effort.

A good chunk of the available serious XC MTBs prove you wrong here, with
stretched positions and flat bars. I have one in the shed.

So do I. It shows why fitting flat bars to a road style (tourers & racers)
bike is not a good idea; the frame of an mtb is typically longer so it is
easier to build in a prone position. I find the standard trim of a flat bar
version of road bike in rather cramped and is something I have posted about
previously.

DavidR said:

"Jon Senior" <jon_AT_restlesslemon_DOT_co_DOT_uk> wrote

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

The amazing thing is... you're still harping on about this. You
relentless refusal to entertain the idea that you might in fact, be
alone is commendable, but extreme. Get a grip! ;-)

If it was a singular problem then I would concur. When I see lots of
riders looking awkward, I consider there must be something wrong.

I see a lot of riders with drops. The large majority do not look awkward.

Of course it is fair enough to design alternative handlebars -- I'm all
for choice and alternatives for everything -- it's just that it's one hell
of a difficult order to come up with something better than drops for as
many people: a highly successful design that's been evolving for many
decades (along with the brake levers).

Personally, for road bikes and tourers at least, I have more hope in
further evolution -- subtly different curves, etc -- rather than
revolution of a completely different design. A great many alternatives
have been tried already afterall.

~PB

DavidR said:

I doubt you have done this test or observed it properly because the answer
is none of the above!

Oddly enough, I've done it plenty of times. Hence my comment about doing
it! ;-)

Quoted message said:

The plane of the palms are perpendicular to the elbow hinge axes which in
turn meet at right angles behind the back. Bring the forerms up, the hands
automatically meet and the palms form two sides of a pyramid.

Er... sitting at my computer, my hands are angled so that the palms
point slightly behind the body. That is the completely relaxed position.
Equivalent perhaps to slightly angled in bar ends.

Quoted message said:

Look at pictures taken of people riding near the hoods and a very popular
position seems to be palms face down and fingers pointing sideways (the
trolley #2 position). This pulls the elbows in so that they line up like
door hinges - an excellent recipe for shoulder ache.

The alternative is, of course, the 'classic' position of palms at the sides
and thumbs hooked in the notch. It still requires some elbow tuck and seems
to need a very precise set up to avoid tiring the thumbs.

Might have to try that. I tend to ride on the hoods for shorter
distances and on the drops for longer routes where I don't need the
brakes so frequently.

Quoted message said:

OK bar ends have a longitudinal component. The difference is that they are
typically posioned at right angles to the forearm and allow the hands to
spread the thrust over a large area. In contrast, the forward part of a
drop bar is angled away from the thrust which then has to be applied
through some delicate part of the hand wedged into the notch.

I see where you're going wrong. You're supposed to apply the force with
the legs, not the arms! :-)

Quoted message said:

If it was a singular problem then I would concur. When I see lots of riders
looking awkward, I consider there must be something wrong.

I see lots of riders looking awkward. They are all riding MTB-a-likes
with flat bars, knobbly tytes and naff suspension. Part of the problem
is that most bike shops do little setting up for the individual at the
point of sale, and most individuals are unaware that it is necessary.
Any bars take some tweaking to get right for an individual rider, yet
most people don't make any changes from default. If more people put half
the effort that you have into setting up their bars, they'd be a lot
more comfortable.

The principle problem is that they are trying to support some proportion
of their weight with their arms. Lie back and take the weight off your arms.

Jon

DavidR said:

But throwing the "baby was slung out with the bath water" depends on
whether you imagine I end up with an alternative configuration by
accident or design. If I decided on certain parameters, don't you
think that if they were achievable with drop bars, then I would use
drop bars?

Judging by your numerous comments about what's bad with drops that clash
with the findings of happy users, I'm still not convinced that you've
setup the bike as well as possible for you to know what is acheivable with
them.

Anyway, the interesting questions are whether your alternative has nasty
nasty compromises, and how many people would like it.

Quoted message said:

I am sure I have said before what I am striving to do but keep getting
shouted down by the "nothing's wrong with drops" merchants.

That's what you get when you call the compromises of drops "nasty nasty"
to those of us who think the compromises are good, and keep
underestimating the plus points. Your criticism is difficult to take
because you have showed such lack of understanding in how to use drop bars
and what they are good for, not because the design is beyond any criticism
at all.

Quoted message said:

Lets go over it again. I want:
~ palm support on the weight bearing part below the little finger;
the reason for including a bit of bar outboard of the bar ends; also,
bar ends toe in so walking along them keeps that part supported
~ a slight bend in the elbows (for shoulder comfort), which implies
the forearms will toe in; bar ends give this; drop bars assume the
arms are parallel
~ fingers to remain in line with the wrists in the position where I
want to spend most riding time; most pictures of people on drops in
this body position show fingers pointing out (supermarket trolley #2
position) ~ complete freedom for the thumbs
~ better brake access

And what would have to be compromised to achieve all that? Out of
interest, what features that drops provide would be absent from your ideal
design?

By the way, the tops of drops provide much of that lot, and the arms don't
have to be parallel on the tops or on any part of the bars, hands can be
at various angles, and elbows can be bent on all positions and straight on
most.

~PB

DavidR said:

The outstanding thing about drop bars is the drop. But having it really
does compromise other positions.

except the ones it doesn't... AFAICT most touring riders like me
spend very little time down on the drops, but lots of them /still/
really like drop bars...

Quoted message said:

I am sure I have said before what I am striving to do but keep getting
shouted down by the "nothing's wrong with drops" merchants.

I don't think that's entirely fair. You've been telling people
without problems that they have terrible problems. I don't think
any of us arguing with you think that drops are The Singular
Answer, just that they are not a Sacred Cow that's actually [censored]
and people only use it because they've been had by the hype, which
is what you've previously rather implied.

Quoted message said:

Lets go over it again. I want:

<snip>

I suggest you get a bike like I did: an HP Velotechnik
Streetmachine GT or similar. There is no weight on your arms or
hands at all so none of the compromises inherent in upright bike
handlebar design matter at all, comfort is transformed upwards by
an order of magnitude, you can be on the brakes and gears 100% of
the time with no issues arising from that and your aerodynamics are
still superior to an upright bike.

You can get everything you want right now.

You're complaining about sacred cows and people being too
conservative, so walk it like you talk it and get rid of the basic
underlying cause of your handlebar problems with a radical bike
that doesn't have any of those problems. Comfort, at least in part
for my hands, arms, neck and shoulders, is the main reason I ride one.

Quoted message said:

I disagree. But that probably won't surprise you. The hand movement from an
off-the-brake position on drops is far more complex and invariably leaves
the arms at slightly different lengths and loads.

It does? It never did for me, I just slid forwards onto the hoods
and there were my brakes.

Quoted message said:

Yes I know about those. I doubt they would be of benefit.

Why not?

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net [email hidden] http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

On Sat, 29 Oct 2005 20:20:59 +0100, Peter Clinch
<[email hidden]> said in <[email hidden]>:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

The outstanding thing about drop bars is the drop. But having it really
does compromise other positions.

Quoted message said:

except the ones it doesn't... AFAICT most touring riders like me
spend very little time down on the drops, but lots of them /still/
really like drop bars...

That would be me, then. I can ride all day on the hoods, but when you
turn into a headwind those drops seem like a really good idea :-)

Guy
--
http://www.chapmancentral.co.uk

"To every complex problem there is a solution which is
simple, neat and wrong" - HL Mencken

"Peter Clinch" <[email hidden]> wrote

Quoted message said:

DavidR wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I am sure I have said before what I am striving to do but keep getting
shouted down by the "nothing's wrong with drops" merchants.

I don't think that's entirely fair. You've been telling people without
problems that they have terrible problems.

I see people riding awkwardly. You are telling me that you
don't have problems. I expect many people go with the flow.

"Pete Biggs" <[email hidden]> wrote

Quoted message said:

DavidR said:

But throwing the "baby was slung out with the bath water" depends on
whether you imagine I end up with an alternative configuration by
accident or design. If I decided on certain parameters, don't you
think that if they were achievable with drop bars, then I would use
drop bars?

Judging by your numerous comments about what's bad with drops that clash
with the findings of happy users, I'm still not convinced that you've
setup the bike as well as possible for you to know what is acheivable
with them.

To double check, I watched some riders that are confident (and claim to be
comfortable) for a change rather than concentrating on the awkward ones. I
think I adopt positions and do things as much as the best of them [*].

Quoted message said:

Anyway, the interesting questions are whether your alternative has nasty
nasty compromises, and how many people would like it.

I thought climbing out of the saddle would be problematic. Not a priority
with a wide range of gearing yet it is still effective enough even if the
narrowness makes it slightly odd.

The proper definition of a compromise is the outcome of trying to balance a
number of conflicting requirements. For example, tubs are used by riders
wanting maximum performance whereas slick 47mm tyres give a magic carpet
ride. The tourists' favourite, the 32mm is neither one or t'other: a
compromise.

So on the basis that I have removed features there are fewer compromises!

I finally found a picture of the idea that influenced me.
http://www.sheldonbrown.com/images/iro-584-09.jpg
Previously I had only seen it in printed copy and all I have done is make
the body more prone.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I am sure I have said before what I am striving to do but keep getting
shouted down by the "nothing's wrong with drops" merchants.

That's what you get when you call the compromises of drops "nasty nasty"
to those of us who think the compromises are good, and keep
underestimating the plus points. Your criticism is difficult to take
because you have showed such lack of understanding in how to use drop
bars and what they are good for, not because the design is beyond any
criticism at all.

See [*] above.
You don't acknowledge anything I have said about the hands even though I
know they right from observing all types of rider. I suggest your
observation is poor.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Lets go over it again. I want:
~ palm support on the weight bearing part below the little finger;
the reason for including a bit of bar outboard of the bar ends; also,
bar ends toe in so walking along them keeps that part supported
~ a slight bend in the elbows (for shoulder comfort), which implies
the forearms will toe in; bar ends give this; drop bars assume the
arms are parallel
~ fingers to remain in line with the wrists in the position where I
want to spend most riding time; most pictures of people on drops in
this body position show fingers pointing out (supermarket trolley #2
position) ~ complete freedom for the thumbs
~ better brake access

Quoted message said:

And what would have to be compromised to achieve all that? Out of
interest, what features that drops provide would be absent from your
ideal design?

I don't think that is right question. There are things I might like to
change but I don't know whether what I visualise in my head would be a)
manufacturable b) practical. With the materials available I have decided to
drop the drop.

Quoted message said:

By the way, the tops of drops provide much of that lot, and the arms
don't have to be parallel on the tops or on any part of the bars,
hands can be at various angles, and elbows can be bent on all positions
and straight on most.

They do, but are they necessarily the right angles & bends? Well, you know
by now that I don't think so.

"Jon Senior" <jon_AT_restlesslemon_DOT_co_DOT_uk> wrote

Quoted message said:

DavidR wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I doubt you have done this test or observed it properly because the
answer is none of the above!

Oddly enough, I've done it plenty of times. Hence my comment about doing
it! ;-)

Quoted message said:

The plane of the palms are perpendicular to the elbow hinge axes which
in turn meet at right angles behind the back. Bring the forerms up, the
hands automatically meet and the palms form two sides of a pyramid.

Hmm, reading this paragraph back makes me cringe a bit.

Quoted message said:

Er... sitting at my computer, my hands are angled so that the palms point
slightly behind the body. That is the completely relaxed position.
Equivalent perhaps to slightly angled in bar ends.

Indeed. In your last post you tried to tell me they faced each other.
As you say, they "point slightly behind" (about 45 degrees, hence the right
angle merge).

Quoted message said:

I see where you're going wrong. You're supposed to apply the force with
the legs, not the arms! :-)

It would be interesting to try. I was once offered the opportunity to try
this but I thought it better to decline because the paint was barely dry.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

If it was a singular problem then I would concur. When I see lots of
riders
looking awkward, I consider there must be something wrong.

I see lots of riders looking awkward. They are all riding MTB-a-likes
with flat bars, knobbly tytes and naff suspension.

....and many have their saddles too low.

But I wouldn't pick an argument over the solutions.

DavidR said:

Quoted message said:

Judging by your numerous comments about what's bad with drops that
clash with the findings of happy users, I'm still not convinced that
you've setup the bike as well as possible for you to know what is
acheivable with them.

To double check, I watched some riders that are confident (and claim
to be comfortable) for a change rather than concentrating on the
awkward ones. I think I adopt positions and do things as much as the
best of them [*].

They don't have a problem with the weight their hands take. For those who
do, better than changing the bars I think, is to reduce the weight by
shortening the stem or top tube (if not going as far as a recumbent!).
Having the same riding position as a good cyclist, even one of the same
proportions, doesn't mean your bike is setup as well as possible for
*you*.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Anyway, the interesting questions are whether your alternative has
nasty nasty compromises, and how many people would like it.

I thought climbing out of the saddle would be problematic. Not a
priority with a wide range of gearing yet it is still effective
enough even if the narrowness makes it slightly odd.

The proper definition of a compromise is the outcome of trying to
balance a number of conflicting requirements. For example, tubs are
used by riders wanting maximum performance whereas slick 47mm tyres
give a magic carpet ride. The tourists' favourite, the 32mm is
neither one or t'other: a compromise.

So on the basis that I have removed features there are fewer
compromises!

As in "baby out with the bath water". It's no use reducing the
compromises if wanted features are removed, and I don't just mean the drop
position. You might not want them but they are popular.

Quoted message said:

I finally found a picture of the idea that influenced me.
http://www.sheldonbrown.com/images/iro-584-09.jpg
Previously I had only seen it in printed copy and all I have done is
make the body more prone.

Quoted message said:

You don't acknowledge anything I have said about the hands even
though I know they right from observing all types of rider. I suggest
your observation is poor.

We have discussed hand postions in detail (in this thread, and the last
time you raised the subject).

I'm confident that my observation is good enough to know the various ways
drop bars can be used. You've come out with so many lots of rubbish about
the ways they *have* to be used, the ways the hands must be placed, etc --
when in fact some of what you say you want is already possible with drops,
so I don't need to "acknowledge" all your "hand positions" -- they go
without saying.

Then drops not being perfect in every way all the time doesn't matter when
the rider is basically happy with the amount of weight going on the hands,
so I don't acknowledge what you claim is necessary is actually necessary.

/snip

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

And what would have to be compromised to achieve all that? Out of
interest, what features that drops provide would be absent from your
ideal design?

I don't think that is right question. There are things I might like to
change but I don't know whether what I visualise in my head would be
a) manufacturable b) practical. With the materials available I have
decided to drop the drop.

As well as learning about any advantages (of course there may be some),
it's important to know what features would be missing with an any design
that is supposed to "replace drops" (as it says in the subject title), if
this is intened for other people as well.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

By the way, the tops of drops provide much of that lot, and the arms
don't have to be parallel on the tops or on any part of the bars,
hands can be at various angles, and elbows can be bent on all
positions and straight on most.

They do, but are they necessarily the right angles & bends?

Drops provide many different angles and bends. They range from excellent
to acceptable, depending on personal preference and what you're doing at
the time. Though some are, they do not all have to be at the "right"
angle for heavy weight bearing if they are providing a very useful feature
otherwise. There should not be very much weight on the hands anyway. For
examples, remember that good racing cyclists with low handlebars actually
put a lot of weight through the pedals, and more recreational cyclists can
put the bars up and shorten the reach.

~PB

DavidR wrote:

[switch from tops to hoods]

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

It's still quick and easy enough to brake when required: the switch
is easier than bar-ends to grips on straight bars

I disagree. But that probably won't surprise you. The hand movement
from an off-the-brake position on drops is far more complex and
invariably leaves the arms at slightly different lengths and loads.

It's a simple enough movement. I find it quicker and easier to locate the
brake lever. The change in reach is somewhat natural when moving hands
outwards in an arc.

Arms being different to each other for a short while doesn't matter (even
if braking like that), and needn't be the case at all if moving both hands
simultanously.

~PB

DavidR said:

But I wouldn't pick an argument over the solutions.

But in the case of drop bars, you would? (A rhetorical question as,
clearly, you do!)

Jon

DavidR said:

I see people riding awkwardly. You are telling me that you
don't have problems. I expect many people go with the flow.

Most of the people I see on drops have been using them for a while.
They're very happy with them and are using them well. Since you regard
drop bars as awkward anyway it's not really meaning very much that you
find other people using them to be awkward too, is it?

Furthermore, I see lots of people riding awkwardly with derailleur
gearing systems. Just because they haven't got completely to grips with
them doesn't make them broken.

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net [email hidden] http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

"Jon Senior" <jon_AT_restlesslemon_DOT_co_DOT_uk> wrote

Quoted message said:

DavidR said:

But I wouldn't pick an argument over the solutions.

But in the case of drop bars, you would? (A rhetorical question as,
clearly, you do!)

Mainly because we are talking about different ends of the market.

"Pete Biggs" <[email hidden]> wrote

Quoted message said:

DavidR said:

Quoted message said:

Judging by your numerous comments about what's bad with drops that
clash with the findings of happy users, I'm still not convinced that
you've setup the bike as well as possible for you to know what is
acheivable with them.

To double check, I watched some riders that are confident (and claim
to be comfortable) for a change rather than concentrating on the
awkward ones. I think I adopt positions and do things as much as the
best of them [*].

They don't have a problem with the weight their hands take. For those
who
do, better than changing the bars I think, is to reduce the weight by
shortening the stem or top tube (if not going as far as a recumbent!).
Having the same riding position as a good cyclist, even one of the same
proportions, doesn't mean your bike is setup as well as possible for
*you*.

You are on the wrong track here. I meant my positions and braking &
manoeuvring techniques are no different from "happy" users.

Besides, I don't want a more upright position! I have set up a utility bike
for that. My eyeline is slightly lower on the bike you have seen in the
pictures than on the hoods of my drop bars. I want a reasonably prone
position with hand shaped places to put my hands - and fumble free brakes.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

So on the basis that I have removed features there are fewer
compromises!

As in "baby out with the bath water". It's no use reducing the
compromises if wanted features are removed, and I don't just mean the
drop position. You might not want them but they are popular.

I know they are popular! But a popularity poll doesn't mean anything if
marketing & fashion should be involved. Remember Betamax? Anyway, there are
plenty of people that have drops that don't use the drop.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I finally found a picture of the idea that influenced me.
http://www.sheldonbrown.com/images/iro-584-09.jpg
Previously I had only seen it in printed copy and all I have done is
make the body more prone.

Quoted message said:

You don't acknowledge anything I have said about the hands even
though I know they right from observing all types of rider. I suggest
your observation is poor.

We have discussed hand postions in detail (in this thread, and the last
time you raised the subject).

I'm confident that my observation is good enough to know the various ways
drop bars can be used. You've come out with so many lots of rubbish
about the ways they *have* to be used, the ways the hands must be
placed, etc -- when in fact some of what you say you want is already
possible with drops, so I don't need to "acknowledge" all your "hand
positions" -- they go without saying.

Come come. Most of it is self evident from simple geometry.

Quoted message said:

Then drops not being perfect in every way all the time doesn't matter
when the rider is basically happy with the amount of weight going on the
hands, so I don't acknowledge what you claim is necessary is actually
necessary.

It isn't *weight*. It is a question of *how* the weight is applied to hands
and matters like wrist and elbow angles. Oh, and the brakes.

Quoted message said:

/snip

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

And what would have to be compromised to achieve all that? Out of
interest, what features that drops provide would be absent from your
ideal design?

I don't think that is right question. There are things I might like to
change but I don't know whether what I visualise in my head would be
a) manufacturable b) practical. With the materials available I have
decided to drop the drop.

As well as learning about any advantages (of course there may be some),
it's important to know what features would be missing with an any design
that is supposed to "replace drops" (as it says in the subject title), if
this is intened for other people as well.

If you lose the drop you lose the drop. Why would anything else need to go?
It frees up certain restrictions.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

By the way, the tops of drops provide much of that lot, and the arms
don't have to be parallel on the tops or on any part of the bars,
hands can be at various angles, and elbows can be bent on all
positions and straight on most.

They do, but are they necessarily the right angles & bends?

Drops provide many different angles and bends. They range from excellent
to acceptable,

Oh, they range from poor to excellent.

Quoted message said:

For examples, remember that good racing cyclists

Oh dear, not this again.

DavidR said:

Besides, I don't want a more upright position! I have set up a
utility bike for that. My eyeline is slightly lower on the bike you
have seen in the pictures than on the hoods of my drop bars. I want a
reasonably prone position with hand shaped places to put my hands -
and fumble free brakes.

I predict you and your ilk will still have problems with your hands taking
the weight in the long run if you have a racing position (or anywhere near
that) but aren't riding like a racer. Changing the angles will have only
a small effect compared to using a more upright position. Most
recreational cyclists with problems wouldn't mind a bit more of an upright
position anyway: it cures various problems.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

As in "baby out with the bath water". It's no use reducing the
compromises if wanted features are removed, and I don't just mean the
drop position. You might not want them but they are popular.

I know they are popular! But a popularity poll doesn't mean anything
if marketing & fashion should be involved. Remember Betamax?

The cycling market is far more competitive and free than the video tape
format ever was. Fashion-[censored] does not last scores of years in the bike
world, and the manufacturers don't act in such a cartel style. Fashion &
marketing victims make up the minority; you are insulting many people who
know what they are doing. BTW, to add to the data, of the few more drop
users I saw today, none looked at all awkward or unhappy.

Quoted message said:

Anyway,
there are plenty of people that have drops that don't use the drop.

As I've said already, drops are good even without the drop position.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I'm confident that my observation is good enough to know the various
ways drop bars can be used. You've come out with so many lots of
rubbish about the ways they *have* to be used, the ways the hands
must be placed, etc -- when in fact some of what you say you want is
already possible with drops, so I don't need to "acknowledge" all
your "hand positions" -- they go without saying.

Come come. Most of it is self evident from simple geometry.

It seems not to you. You've had great difficulty accepting what positions
are useable in practice, and I think still don't accept some. Your
geometry knowledge hasn't stopped you being wrong there.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Then drops not being perfect in every way all the time doesn't matter
when the rider is basically happy with the amount of weight going on
the hands, so I don't acknowledge what you claim is necessary is
actually necessary.

It isn't *weight*. It is a question of *how* the weight is applied to
hands and matters like wrist and elbow angles. Oh, and the brakes.

The weight is crucial. The angles matter less when the weight is less.

Quoted message said:

If you lose the drop you lose the drop. Why would anything else need
to go? It frees up certain restrictions.

Some of the angles would be lost. Many of us actually like those angles,
you know! And be sure to include immediate access to brakes from a fast
long-reach position.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

For examples, remember that good racing cyclists

Oh dear, not this again.

You can't stand to hear about any happy users of drops. Racing cyclists
are just *one* load. The bit you snipped was a point I thought relevant
to the weight factor (to those who use a racing position but aren't
cycling as hard so put less weight through the pedals).

Stop slagging off and misunderstanding drops and I'll stop replying. I'm
not particularly interested in slagging off any alternative bars, but I
will argue against the idea that they are needed by a large proportion of
recreational cyclists who currently use drops.

~PB

DavidR said:

Besides, I don't want a more upright position! I have set up a
utility bike for that. My eyeline is slightly lower on the bike you
have seen in the pictures than on the hoods of my drop bars. I want a
reasonably prone position with hand shaped places to put my hands -
and fumble free brakes.

I predict you and your ilk will still have problems with your hands taking
the weight in the long run if you have a racing position (or anywhere near
that) but aren't riding like a racer. Changing the angles will have only
a small effect compared to using a more upright position. Most
recreational cyclists with problems wouldn't mind a bit more of an upright
position anyway: it cures various problems.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

As in "baby out with the bath water". It's no use reducing the
compromises if wanted features are removed, and I don't just mean the
drop position. You might not want them but they are popular.

I know they are popular! But a popularity poll doesn't mean anything
if marketing & fashion should be involved. Remember Betamax?

The cycling market is far more competitive and free than the video tape
format ever was. Fashion-[censored] does not last scores of years in the bike
world, and the manufacturers don't act in such a cartel style. Fashion &
marketing victims make up the minority; you are insulting many people who
know what they are doing. BTW, to add to the data, of the few more drop
users I saw today, none looked at all awkward or unhappy.

Quoted message said:

Anyway,
there are plenty of people that have drops that don't use the drop.

As I've said already, drops are good even without the drop position.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I'm confident that my observation is good enough to know the various
ways drop bars can be used. You've come out with so many lots of
rubbish about the ways they *have* to be used, the ways the hands
must be placed, etc -- when in fact some of what you say you want is
already possible with drops, so I don't need to "acknowledge" all
your "hand positions" -- they go without saying.

Come come. Most of it is self evident from simple geometry.

It seems not to you. You've had great difficulty accepting what positions
are useable in practice, and I think still don't accept some. Your
geometry knowledge hasn't stopped you being wrong there.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Then drops not being perfect in every way all the time doesn't matter
when the rider is basically happy with the amount of weight going on
the hands, so I don't acknowledge what you claim is necessary is
actually necessary.

It isn't *weight*. It is a question of *how* the weight is applied to
hands and matters like wrist and elbow angles. Oh, and the brakes.

The weight is crucial. The angles matter less when the weight is less.

Quoted message said:

If you lose the drop you lose the drop. Why would anything else need
to go? It frees up certain restrictions.

Some of the angles would be lost. Many of us actually like those angles,
you know! And be sure to include immediate access to brakes from a fast
long-reach position.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

For examples, remember that good racing cyclists

Oh dear, not this again.

You can't stand to hear about any happy users of drops. Racing cyclists
are just *one* load. The bit you snipped was a point I thought relevant
to the weight factor (to those who use a racing position but aren't
cycling as hard so put less weight through the pedals).

Stop slagging off and misunderstanding drops and I'll stop replying. I'm
not particularly interested in slagging off any alternative bars, but I
will argue against the idea that they are needed by a large proportion of
recreational cyclists who currently use drops.

~PB

I said:

DavidR said:

If you lose the drop you lose the drop. Why would anything else need
to go? It frees up certain restrictions.

Some of the angles would be lost. Many of us actually like those
angles, you know! And be sure to include immediate access to brakes
from a fast long-reach position.

Also being able to slide hands sideways to vary the effective width would
be lost if restricted by short grips or things clamped to the bars getting
in the way.

~PB