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drag from the wall?

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General fitness, health and nutrition
Published
30 January 2006
Last activity
14 February 2006
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Mark P
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  1. At my workout this afternoon there was a woman in the lane next to me
    who was attempting to break the one hour USMS distance record. She's in
    the 40-44 age group where the current record is 5325 yds and she came in
    at 5310 yds. Very fast, and so close to the record.

    She was swimming in the end lane of the pool where the water is plenty
    deep but the lane touches the wall. There's a deep gutter at the wall
    but no rope or extra space between the lane and the wall. I'm wondering
    whether this would add a little extra drag as compared to having another
    lane on that side. Even 1% could have made a difference. Anyone know
    the facts on this?

    -Mark

  2. Mark P said:

    Anyone know the facts on this?

    Oh this'll be a great thread. Why ruin it with facts?

  3. Mark P said:

    At my workout this afternoon there was a woman in the lane next to me
    who was attempting to break the one hour USMS distance record. She's in
    the 40-44 age group where the current record is 5325 yds and she came in
    at 5310 yds. Very fast, and so close to the record.

    She was swimming in the end lane of the pool where the water is plenty
    deep but the lane touches the wall. There's a deep gutter at the wall
    but no rope or extra space between the lane and the wall. I'm wondering
    whether this would add a little extra drag as compared to having another
    lane on that side. Even 1% could have made a difference. Anyone know
    the facts on this?

    -Mark

    Maybe if she tried it in a lake?


  4. Quoted message said:

    She was swimming in the end lane of the pool where the water is plenty
    deep but the lane touches the wall. There's a deep gutter at the wall but
    no rope or extra space between the lane and the wall. I'm wondering
    whether this would add a little extra drag as compared to having another
    lane on that side. Even 1% could have made a difference. Anyone know the
    facts on this?

    Well, I have seen time trials in the past, and the swimmer was always alone
    in the pool, and in one of the middle lane.

    -- Olivier

  5. "Mark P" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    At my workout this afternoon there was a woman in the lane next to me
    who was attempting to break the one hour USMS distance record. She's in
    the 40-44 age group where the current record is 5325 yds and she came in
    at 5310 yds. Very fast, and so close to the record.

    She was swimming in the end lane of the pool where the water is plenty
    deep but the lane touches the wall. There's a deep gutter at the wall
    but no rope or extra space between the lane and the wall. I'm wondering
    whether this would add a little extra drag as compared to having another
    lane on that side. Even 1% could have made a difference. Anyone know
    the facts on this?

    Yes.

    There _is_ an extra drag from the wall being close.

    Naval architects term this "bottom effect" - although it might in the case
    you refer to be better described as "bank effect".

    The column of water between a moving body and a fixed surface shears. When
    the distance between the body and the surface is small, an extra drag can be
    detected. This valuse of "small" depends mostly on three things:

    a) the speed of motion of the body
    b) the length of the body
    c) the sensitivity of the measurement apparatus.

    A fact that might surprise you is that the drag increases (proportionately)
    as the speed of motion is reduced; this is due to the angle of shear being
    more perpendicular and thus it will contact the surface before a larger
    portion of the body has passed that point.

    I've heard it said that for ships at common ship speeds (say 5 to 15 knots)
    such an effect can be detected if the bottom is less than 200x the waterline
    length of the ship.

    No swimmer travels as fast as 5 knots, but the sensitivity of our
    measurements are proportionately much less than those available when working
    with an object as large as a ship. Countering this, the effect of the drag
    is not linearly related to the separation (it is, obviously, greater when
    this distance is smaller), and so with seperations of a metre or less, as in
    your example, one might well expect there to be some detectable drag.

    As far as I know there have not been any peer-reviewed studies on the effect
    of the wall on swimming speed, but it is commonly thought to be a factor of
    some small but not insignificant size.

    Regulations for meets of international calibre state that the pool depth
    must not be less than 2 metres; and that an extra empty lane be interposed
    between the outside racing lanes and the walls (which in essence gives about
    a 3 metre distance between a swimmer and the wall).

    The difference between the record and her swim is less than three-tenths of
    a percent.

    Put her in lane 4 next time.

  6. Not being an expert, I would also think that the wake pattern will be
    somehow affected by waves bouncing off the wall. This might lead to
    some asymmetry and may interfere with the swimming form. I have no
    idea though if this effect is significant.

    Lev

    jtaylor said:


    "Mark P" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    At my workout this afternoon there was a woman in the lane next to me
    who was attempting to break the one hour USMS distance record. She's in
    the 40-44 age group where the current record is 5325 yds and she came in
    at 5310 yds. Very fast, and so close to the record.

    She was swimming in the end lane of the pool where the water is plenty
    deep but the lane touches the wall. There's a deep gutter at the wall
    but no rope or extra space between the lane and the wall. I'm wondering
    whether this would add a little extra drag as compared to having another
    lane on that side. Even 1% could have made a difference. Anyone know
    the facts on this?

    Yes.

    There _is_ an extra drag from the wall being close.

    Naval architects term this "bottom effect" - although it might in the case
    you refer to be better described as "bank effect".

    The column of water between a moving body and a fixed surface shears. When
    the distance between the body and the surface is small, an extra drag can be
    detected. This valuse of "small" depends mostly on three things:

    a) the speed of motion of the body
    b) the length of the body
    c) the sensitivity of the measurement apparatus.

    A fact that might surprise you is that the drag increases (proportionately)
    as the speed of motion is reduced; this is due to the angle of shear being
    more perpendicular and thus it will contact the surface before a larger
    portion of the body has passed that point.

    I've heard it said that for ships at common ship speeds (say 5 to 15 knots)
    such an effect can be detected if the bottom is less than 200x the waterline
    length of the ship.

    No swimmer travels as fast as 5 knots, but the sensitivity of our
    measurements are proportionately much less than those available when working
    with an object as large as a ship. Countering this, the effect of the drag
    is not linearly related to the separation (it is, obviously, greater when
    this distance is smaller), and so with seperations of a metre or less, as in
    your example, one might well expect there to be some detectable drag.

    As far as I know there have not been any peer-reviewed studies on the effect
    of the wall on swimming speed, but it is commonly thought to be a factor of
    some small but not insignificant size.

    Regulations for meets of international calibre state that the pool depth
    must not be less than 2 metres; and that an extra empty lane be interposed
    between the outside racing lanes and the walls (which in essence gives about
    a 3 metre distance between a swimmer and the wall).

    The difference between the record and her swim is less than three-tenths of
    a percent.

    Put her in lane 4 next time.

  7. Could this be why the faster swimmers are seeded in the middle?

    Micheal

    "Lev Borisov" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:


    Not being an expert, I would also think that the wake pattern will be
    somehow affected by waves bouncing off the wall. This might lead to
    some asymmetry and may interfere with the swimming form. I have no
    idea though if this effect is significant.

    Lev

    jtaylor said:


    "Mark P" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    At my workout this afternoon there was a woman in the lane next to me
    who was attempting to break the one hour USMS distance record. She's


    in

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    the 40-44 age group where the current record is 5325 yds and she came


    in

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    at 5310 yds. Very fast, and so close to the record.

    She was swimming in the end lane of the pool where the water is plenty
    deep but the lane touches the wall. There's a deep gutter at the wall
    but no rope or extra space between the lane and the wall. I'm


    wondering

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    whether this would add a little extra drag as compared to having


    another

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    lane on that side. Even 1% could have made a difference. Anyone know
    the facts on this?

    Yes.

    There _is_ an extra drag from the wall being close.

    Naval architects term this "bottom effect" - although it might in the


    case

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    you refer to be better described as "bank effect".

    The column of water between a moving body and a fixed surface shears.


    When

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    the distance between the body and the surface is small, an extra drag


    can be

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    detected. This valuse of "small" depends mostly on three things:

    a) the speed of motion of the body
    b) the length of the body
    c) the sensitivity of the measurement apparatus.

    A fact that might surprise you is that the drag increases


    (proportionately)

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    as the speed of motion is reduced; this is due to the angle of shear


    being

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    more perpendicular and thus it will contact the surface before a larger
    portion of the body has passed that point.

    I've heard it said that for ships at common ship speeds (say 5 to 15


    knots)

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    such an effect can be detected if the bottom is less than 200x the


    waterline

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    length of the ship.

    No swimmer travels as fast as 5 knots, but the sensitivity of our
    measurements are proportionately much less than those available when


    working

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    with an object as large as a ship. Countering this, the effect of the


    drag

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    is not linearly related to the separation (it is, obviously, greater


    when

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    this distance is smaller), and so with seperations of a metre or less,


    as in

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    your example, one might well expect there to be some detectable drag.

    As far as I know there have not been any peer-reviewed studies on the


    effect

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    of the wall on swimming speed, but it is commonly thought to be a factor


    of

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    some small but not insignificant size.

    Regulations for meets of international calibre state that the pool depth
    must not be less than 2 metres; and that an extra empty lane be


    interposed

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    between the outside racing lanes and the walls (which in essence gives


    about

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    a 3 metre distance between a swimmer and the wall).

    The difference between the record and her swim is less than three-tenths


    of

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    a percent.

    Put her in lane 4 next time.


  8. Micheal Artindale said:

    Could this be why the faster swimmers are seeded in the middle?

    You could be onto something.

    Quoted message said:

    Micheal

    "Lev Borisov" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    Not being an expert, I would also think that the wake pattern will be
    somehow affected by waves bouncing off the wall. This might lead to
    some asymmetry and may interfere with the swimming form. I have no
    idea though if this effect is significant.

    Lev

    jtaylor said:

    "Mark P" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    >At my workout this afternoon there was a woman in the lane next to me
    >who was attempting to break the one hour USMS distance record. She's

    in

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    >the 40-44 age group where the current record is 5325 yds and she came

    in

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    >at 5310 yds. Very fast, and so close to the record.
    >
    >She was swimming in the end lane of the pool where the water is plenty
    >deep but the lane touches the wall. There's a deep gutter at the wall
    >but no rope or extra space between the lane and the wall. I'm

    wondering

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    >whether this would add a little extra drag as compared to having

    another

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    >lane on that side. Even 1% could have made a difference. Anyone know
    >the facts on this?

    Yes.

    There _is_ an extra drag from the wall being close.

    Naval architects term this "bottom effect" - although it might in the

    case

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    you refer to be better described as "bank effect".

    The column of water between a moving body and a fixed surface shears.

    When

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    the distance between the body and the surface is small, an extra drag

    can be

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    detected. This valuse of "small" depends mostly on three things:

    a) the speed of motion of the body
    b) the length of the body
    c) the sensitivity of the measurement apparatus.

    A fact that might surprise you is that the drag increases

    (proportionately)

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    as the speed of motion is reduced; this is due to the angle of shear

    being

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    more perpendicular and thus it will contact the surface before a larger
    portion of the body has passed that point.

    I've heard it said that for ships at common ship speeds (say 5 to 15

    knots)

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    such an effect can be detected if the bottom is less than 200x the

    waterline

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    length of the ship.

    No swimmer travels as fast as 5 knots, but the sensitivity of our
    measurements are proportionately much less than those available when

    working

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    with an object as large as a ship. Countering this, the effect of the

    drag

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    is not linearly related to the separation (it is, obviously, greater

    when

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    this distance is smaller), and so with seperations of a metre or less,

    as in

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    your example, one might well expect there to be some detectable drag.

    As far as I know there have not been any peer-reviewed studies on the

    effect

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    of the wall on swimming speed, but it is commonly thought to be a factor

    of

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    some small but not insignificant size.

    Regulations for meets of international calibre state that the pool depth
    must not be less than 2 metres; and that an extra empty lane be

    interposed

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    between the outside racing lanes and the walls (which in essence gives

    about

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    a 3 metre distance between a swimmer and the wall).

    The difference between the record and her swim is less than three-tenths

    of

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    a percent.

    Put her in lane 4 next time.


  9. Micheal Artindale said:

    Could this be why the faster swimmers are seeded in the middle?

    Maybe that's part of it, espcially in facilities that aren't extremely
    well designed, but I think it's more to put the fast people close to one
    another so that they can see each other.

    Mark

    P.S. Don't top post

  10. "Lev Borisov" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:


    Not being an expert, I would also think that the wake pattern will be
    somehow affected by waves bouncing off the wall. This might lead to
    some asymmetry and may interfere with the swimming form. I have no
    idea though if this effect is significant.

    The term for such a wave situation is "clapotic".

    Most of the wake of a racing swimmer, even at the low speed of 2-3 knots, is
    behind them by the time it spreads out to 2 metres (trice the minimum likely
    separation of a wall-lane swimmer from the wall. Although there may be some
    clapotic waves produced that could affect the swimmer (in the special
    situation of reversing direction), edge design and the frequent use of
    wall-adjacent lane markers designed to reduce waves would make this a
    _very_small effect.

  11. "Martin Smith" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    in re: a discussion of speed-reduction of a wall-lane placement due to
    bottom effect and clapotic waves...

    Quoted message said:
    Micheal Artindale said:

    Could this be why the faster swimmers are seeded in the middle?

    You could be onto something.

    No.

    When swimmers are seeded such that the fastest (based on entry or
    heat/quarter-final/semi-final time) are in the centre, the justification is
    to give all swimmers a chance of seeing, and thus competing with the likely
    winner(s).

    Although this seeding arrangement is not used in all circumstances and
    jurisdictions, it is common enough that everyone who has spent any time at
    all in the competitive swimming world knows the reason. Either Martin is
    feigning ignorance, or he is truly ignorant. Neither of these would be a
    surprise.

  12. Silver0l said:
    Quoted message said:

    She was swimming in the end lane of the pool where the water is plenty
    deep but the lane touches the wall. There's a deep gutter at the wall but
    no rope or extra space between the lane and the wall. I'm wondering
    whether this would add a little extra drag as compared to having another
    lane on that side. Even 1% could have made a difference. Anyone know the
    facts on this?

    Well, I have seen time trials in the past, and the swimmer was always alone
    in the pool, and in one of the middle lane.

    I think this was a just a particularly good masters swimmer going for a
    personal best and a record. It would cost some money to rent the hole
    pool for an hour.

  13. "Martin Smith" <[email hidden]> a écrit dans le message de news:
    [email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:
    Silver0l said:
    Quoted message said:

    She was swimming in the end lane of the pool where the water is plenty
    deep but the lane touches the wall. There's a deep gutter at the wall
    but no rope or extra space between the lane and the wall. I'm wondering
    whether this would add a little extra drag as compared to having another
    lane on that side. Even 1% could have made a difference. Anyone know
    the facts on this?

    Well, I have seen time trials in the past, and the swimmer was always
    alone in the pool, and in one of the middle lane.

    I think this was a just a particularly good masters swimmer going for a
    personal best and a record. It would cost some money to rent the hole pool
    for an hour.

    Well, it seemed to be quite official, because she was trying to break a
    national USMS record. I guess that a certain number of conditions must be
    met to get a sanctionned USMS record. Like nobody splashing around in the
    pool.

    Of course, this is nothing like a real, FINA sanctionned record. In this
    case she should have swum in a 25m or 50m pool, or in open water, and on
    some official distance (800m, 1500m, 5km, 10km, 25km...).

    By the way, just to put things in perspective, this girl swam 1 hour at 4.85
    km/h - which is quite fast! But David Meca swam for 5 hours at 5 km/h.

    -- Olivier

  14. Silver0l said:

    "Martin Smith" <[email hidden]> a écrit dans le message de news:
    [email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:
    Silver0l said:

    >She was swimming in the end lane of the pool where the water is plenty
    >deep but the lane touches the wall. There's a deep gutter at the wall
    >but no rope or extra space between the lane and the wall. I'm wondering
    >whether this would add a little extra drag as compared to having another
    >lane on that side. Even 1% could have made a difference. Anyone know
    >the facts on this?

    Well, I have seen time trials in the past, and the swimmer was always
    alone in the pool, and in one of the middle lane.

    I think this was a just a particularly good masters swimmer going for a
    personal best and a record. It would cost some money to rent the hole pool
    for an hour.

    Well, it seemed to be quite official, because she was trying to break a
    national USMS record. I guess that a certain number of conditions must be
    met to get a sanctionned USMS record. Like nobody splashing around in the
    pool.

    Of course, this is nothing like a real, FINA sanctionned record. In this
    case she should have swum in a 25m or 50m pool, or in open water, and on
    some official distance (800m, 1500m, 5km, 10km, 25km...).

    By the way, just to put things in perspective, this girl swam 1 hour at 4.85
    km/h - which is quite fast! But David Meca swam for 5 hours at 5 km/h.

    Her speed was just over 3 Artindales. That's pretty fast. I would have a
    hard time achieving 2.5 Artindales these days. I don't think you should
    call her a girl, though. 40-44 is a magical age, but it's way past girl.

  15. Silver0l said:

    "Martin Smith" <[email hidden]> a écrit dans le message de news:
    [email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:
    Silver0l said:

    >She was swimming in the end lane of the pool where the water is plenty
    >deep but the lane touches the wall. There's a deep gutter at the wall
    >but no rope or extra space between the lane and the wall. I'm wondering
    >whether this would add a little extra drag as compared to having another
    >lane on that side. Even 1% could have made a difference. Anyone know
    >the facts on this?

    Well, I have seen time trials in the past, and the swimmer was always
    alone in the pool, and in one of the middle lane.

    I think this was a just a particularly good masters swimmer going for a
    personal best and a record. It would cost some money to rent the hole pool
    for an hour.

    Well, it seemed to be quite official, because she was trying to break a
    national USMS record. I guess that a certain number of conditions must be
    met to get a sanctionned USMS record. Like nobody splashing around in the
    pool.

    Of course, this is nothing like a real, FINA sanctionned record. In this
    case she should have swum in a 25m or 50m pool, or in open water, and on
    some official distance (800m, 1500m, 5km, 10km, 25km...).

    By the way, just to put things in perspective, this girl swam 1 hour at 4.85
    km/h - which is quite fast! But David Meca swam for 5 hours at 5 km/h.

    Somewhere on the USMS are the official rules regarding records though I
    didn't look at them very carefully. I can tell you that she had someone
    on deck monitoring the entire swim and recording per length splits. She
    had the lane to herself, but being the end lane she had to contend with
    not only the wall but also two ladders. And I was in the adjacent lane
    which probably didn't help her any either.

  16. Mark P said:
    Silver0l said:

    "Martin Smith" <[email hidden]> a écrit dans le message de news:
    [email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    Silver0l wrote:

    >> She was swimming in the end lane of the pool where the water is plenty
    >> deep but the lane touches the wall. There's a deep gutter at the
    >> wall but no rope or extra space between the lane and the wall. I'm
    >> wondering whether this would add a little extra drag as compared to
    >> having another lane on that side. Even 1% could have made a
    >> difference. Anyone know the facts on this?
    >
    >
    >
    > Well, I have seen time trials in the past, and the swimmer was
    > always alone in the pool, and in one of the middle lane.

    I think this was a just a particularly good masters swimmer going for
    a personal best and a record. It would cost some money to rent the
    hole pool for an hour.

    Well, it seemed to be quite official, because she was trying to break
    a national USMS record. I guess that a certain number of conditions
    must be met to get a sanctionned USMS record. Like nobody splashing
    around in the pool.

    Of course, this is nothing like a real, FINA sanctionned record. In
    this case she should have swum in a 25m or 50m pool, or in open water,
    and on some official distance (800m, 1500m, 5km, 10km, 25km...).

    By the way, just to put things in perspective, this girl swam 1 hour
    at 4.85 km/h - which is quite fast! But David Meca swam for 5 hours at
    5 km/h.

    Somewhere on the USMS are the official rules regarding records though I
    didn't look at them very carefully. I can tell you that she had someone
    on deck monitoring the entire swim and recording per length splits. She
    had the lane to herself, but being the end lane she had to contend with
    not only the wall but also two ladders. And I was in the adjacent lane
    which probably didn't help her any either.

    It was a hell of a good swim, record or no.

  17. I swim in a 6 lane pool. The currents in lanes 1,2,3 go in opposite
    directions from 4,5,6, with the strongest currents in lanes 1 and 6.
    For me the difference in direction results in an extra stroke cycle (2
    strokes). For handicapped or extremely old swimmers the difference is
    an astonishing 50%. I've seen several people go one length at 1 minute
    and the other direction at 2 minutes. Because they need the wall in
    case of problems, they always swim in one end lane or the other with
    reversed results. So it may be more than the wall that's slowing down a
    swimmer, but also the currents.

    rtk

  18. "Martin Smith" <[email hidden]> a écrit dans le message de news:
    [email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    Her speed was just over 3 Artindales. That's pretty fast. I would have a
    hard time achieving 2.5 Artindales these days.

    You are on something here. We could use the Artindale as the new universal
    unit for swim speed. 1 Artindale = 1.5 km/hr. No more trouble comparing
    knots with miles per hour, or m/s. I will try to swim my next Ironman at 2.6
    A. The good thing is that one should never have to use values smaller than 1
    A. Makes calculation simpler.

    -- Olivier

  19. Silver0l said:

    "Martin Smith" <[email hidden]> a écrit dans le message de news:
    [email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    Her speed was just over 3 Artindales. That's pretty fast. I would have a
    hard time achieving 2.5 Artindales these days.

    You are on something here. We could use the Artindale as the new universal
    unit for swim speed. 1 Artindale = 1.5 km/hr. No more trouble comparing
    knots with miles per hour, or m/s. I will try to swim my next Ironman at 2.6
    A. The good thing is that one should never have to use values smaller than 1
    A. Makes calculation simpler.

    Maybe I'll be nominated for a Duke Kahanamoku swimming prize. The Long
    Board. But I think you have to be dead first. And that's why Artindale
    units are so useful. You know when you're almost dead.

  20. rtk said:


    I swim in a 6 lane pool. The currents in lanes 1,2,3 go in opposite
    directions from 4,5,6, with the strongest currents in lanes 1 and 6. For
    me the difference in direction results in an extra stroke cycle (2
    strokes). For handicapped or extremely old swimmers the difference is
    an astonishing 50%. I've seen several people go one length at 1 minute
    and the other direction at 2 minutes. Because they need the wall in
    case of problems, they always swim in one end lane or the other with
    reversed results. So it may be more than the wall that's slowing down a
    swimmer, but also the currents.

    rtk

    The vortex! Don't go back in there, Ruth!

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