Dr.Coggan/Ric V02 max MAX

Quadsweep said:

According to physiologists, how long does it take someone to max out their VO2 max if one is training to do so ie: plenty of L5? This is providing that one is in good shape to begin with and is already at a very lean body weight for their build.

I have heard that one can reach their genetic limit with only 6 weeks of focused VO2 work. This may be fact or total BS I don't know. [img]cyclingforums.comconfused.gifOpen ↗[/img]

Well, let's see: I started in endurance sports when I was 13, started racing bikes when I was 15, did my first VO2max test when I was 18, and my VO2max didn't peak until I was 26. So, according this physiologist, the answer to your question is clearly "13 y!". 😉

All joking aside, that's a tough question to answer, especially since "being in good shape to begin with" is open to considerable interpretation. Perhaps more importantly, I sense that the real question that you're asking is "how long should I focus on level 5 intervals?" during a season, which is a completely different story...

acoggan said:

Perhaps more importantly, I sense that the real question that you're asking is "how long should I focus on level 5 intervals?" during a season, which is a completely different story...

Damn it Dr Coggan, you are indeed a "mind reader"[img]cyclingforums.comsmile.gifOpen ↗[/img]
What are your general recommendations here and how do you fit L4 into the equation when focusing on L5?

Thank you

I'm no physiologist, but I have some books written by them! What you've heard is pretty close to what I've read, though perhaps it's more like 7 to 8 weeks total.

Assuming you have a really good, solid aerobic base you can work on anaerobic training for 7 to 8 weeks and reach pretty much your full potential. That's why most periodization training prescribes 7- to 8-week periods. Build up the intensity and duration of your anaerobic work over that period, hit your peak, then recover for a week and start over.

Looking forward to the expert's followups!

DennistheMennis said:

I'm no physiologist, but I have some books written by them! What you've heard is pretty close to what I've read, though perhaps it's more like 7 to 8 weeks total.

Assuming you have a really good, solid aerobic base you can work on anaerobic training for 7 to 8 weeks and reach pretty much your full potential. That's why most periodization training prescribes 7- to 8-week periods. Build up the intensity and duration of your anaerobic work over that period, hit your peak, then recover for a week and start over.

Looking forward to the expert's followups!

Thank you for your reply Mennis.
Not trying to sound like an ass but what the heck is AEROBIC BASE anyway? I personally think it is a good deal of L4 hours. Many many riders think it is a ton of L2.
BTW VO2 work(L5) is not anaerobic it is top end aerobic but I understand that you meant L5 work. Anaerobic work is all out efforts generally of 30 seconds to 1.5 minutes done from a fairly well recovered state. ie: 1 minute all out followed by 3 minutes at a recovery pace..and repeat etc etc.

Physiologist David Morris and a couple others have their riders do L5 work before L4 work(WTF) in the training year!?

My non-expert interpretation of the books and such I've read say "base" is a 9- to 13-week period starting with low-intensity low-duration rides, gradually progressing to long-duration rides mixed with higher-intensity rides (but still almost all aerobic). This base period would likely be longer for a complete novice.

This is followed by a "build" period of about 6 to 8 weeks in which ride duration is gradually reduced while ride intensity is increased further, with mucho anaerobic stuff. Then you race. 🙂

Then you go through several more build periods until your season ends, followed by a break before your next base period starts for the next year.

p.s. I'm mostly following a training plan I put together using Joe Friel's book.

DennistheMennis said:

p.s. I'm mostly following a training plan I put together using Joe Friel's book.

Frield likes lots of base. That is a warning.

Quadsweep said:

Physiologist David Morris and a couple others have their riders do L5 work before L4 work(WTF) in the training year!?

Whats wrong with that. I think L5 should come before L4 because you are rasing the bar of your aerobic capacaties and power b4 you slip into L4 work.

Quadsweep said:

Damn it Dr Coggan, you are indeed a "mind reader"[img]cyclingforums.comsmile.gifOpen ↗[/img]
What are your general recommendations here and how do you fit L4 into the equation when focusing on L5?

General recommendation: Lydiard had it right.

How to fit in level 4 when focussing on level 5: I don't think that you really can.

dm69 said:

Whats wrong with that. I think L5 should come before L4 because you are rasing the bar of your aerobic capacaties and power b4 you slip into L4 work.

IMO, what's "wrong" with this approach is that your lack of metabolic fitness/muscular fatigue resistance prevents you from taxing your cardiovascular system to the same degree as when the order is reversed. (This assumes, of course, that driving your VO2max as high as possible is your goal, vs. simply giving it an early season "boost" to w/in shouting distance of your real limit.)

dm69 said:

Whats wrong with that. I think L5 should come before L4 because you are rasing the bar of your aerobic capacaties and power b4 you slip into L4 work.

Dr. Coggan made a good point but left out the "other" important reason, that he agrees with by the way.....that is, if you do L5 work before L4 there is a very good chance that you will "peak" at the wrong time. Since we can only hold peaks for "so long" before the body simply WILL back off then doing VO2 work before L4 has this risk.

I do suppose that a very "minor" L5 focus would be okay before doing a lot of L4 work "giving it an early season "boost" to w/in shouting distance of your real limit."

Then again, and sadly, and after all is said, what counts in the end is genetics and then genetics plus smart drug use at the elite national and pro level. If we admit this then there are many "ways" to formulate successful training based on personal preference.

Quadsweep said:

According to physiologists, how long does it take someone to max out their VO2 max if one is training to do so ie: plenty of L5?

Quadsweep. I'd like to maybe add a dimention to the debate. When you say how long does it take to "Max out", you probably have in mind how long before reaching the maximal rate at which the aerobic metabolism can operate. This particular aspect can improve (and plateau) quite rapidly in one's career.

But there are other aspects related to VO2Max that, I believe, keep improving thoughout one's career. The power one can generate at this rate might continue to improve (at least I think), the duration over which one can sustain this level, the size of the matchbox (meaning the quantity of L5 attacks one can through in a single event). I guess the same goes with the size of the matchbox over a Tour etc...

So even if one is stalled at 5L/min, or 71ml/kg/min at the 3rd or 4th year into his career, there are still many reasons for continue working these levels while expecting to see performance improvements.